I know this is not SWG, but I just wanted to know if anyone heard anything about the level of exploration in JKA.
Obiously, the levels this time around must be much bigger to support things like usuing swoop bikes.
Hmmm. I think you have to compare it to Outcast first.
Take JKII, it was very linear and it's objectives were rather flat and mediocre (obviously my point of view - but it was still a great game to play). Now, Academy firstly will have the bonus of the ability to choose which missions you will play. This is sort of a start in explorative play. In regards to the levels, hopefully secrets will play an important part in taking a bit of time to explore the levels (i.e. finding secrets can give rewards like in JKI)
Another thing to make explorative play a bit deeper would be the choice of paths (light or dark) It could be a possibility that one path allows only one way on a certain level, and the other path leads a different way.
But speaking realistically JA is being made to focus on saber combat and therefore is an action game really. But Expect a bit more exploration in JA (Hopefully)
;) Cheers.
Yeah, it does play heavy on the saber combat. But I was also hoping that since they were taking some elements of RPG's, that they would have incorporated some level of exploration. Although I know that the Q3 engine can't handle real expansive levels.
Ah...I highly doubt hugely explorable levels. I mean, sure, in KOTOR or SW:G, you might find a cool armor suit or a blaster upgrade in a cave 5 miles from where you're supposed to be, but...in JA, what'll you find? A shield recharge? :rolleyes:
Besides, that would be out of character for the DF series in general, and Raven's SW games in particular.
Ah...I highly doubt hugely explorable levels. I mean, sure, in KOTOR or SW:G, you might find a cool armor suit or a blaster upgrade in a cave 5 miles from where you're supposed to be, but...in JA, what'll you find? A shield recharge?
Umm, yea. Considering JA is an action game and not an RPG. Exploration isn't limited to finding upgrades by the way.
EDIT: See "The Legend of Zelda:The Wind Waker", or "Metroid Prime" for Gamecube to see exploration in an action game.
I'd like to point out that JA's levels can be twice as large as those in JKII.
Originally posted by nykel007
I know this is not SWG, but I just wanted to know if anyone heard anything about the level of exploration in JKA.
Obiously, the levels this time around must be much bigger to support things like usuing swoop bikes.
Not necessarily. Raven has a terrain system that does allow for larger levels, but they can also 'fake it'. If anyone has played the 'train' level in Soldier Of Fortune, you know what I mean. The train appears to be moving rapidly through a landscape...but the landscape itself is generated 'on the fly', and it's the terrain that moves, not the train. ;)
Having said that, JA's levels are supposed to be larger and more open than JO's, so there should be a bit more exploration in that respect. However, increasingly larger levels are not really that necessary to get you to explore more. I've just finished playing Thief, and I have to say it's got some of the best level designs I've seen in a game. There are usually at least two paths to reach an objective, the levels themselves are quite large...and the nature of the game itself forces you to explore a level very thoroughly to gather 'loot'. You often have a minimum level of loot you have to acquire...so you find yourself literally looking in every nook and cranny. No One Lives Forever had a similar game mechanic by rewarding you for the amount of 'intelligence items' you found on a mission, which obviously required greater exploration.
So basically, unless the need for exploration is part of the game mechanics, there is no great need to thoroughly explore each level. Secrets are obviously another key incentive to encourage exploration, and I certainly hope there is a comparable number of secrets in JA as there were in the original Jedi Knight. Again in JK...you had to find all the secrets to get rewarded with extra Force Stars to allocate to your Force Powers...so the second time through the game I took more time and tried to find every single secret area so I could gain that advantage.
I hope that at least one mission in JA requires you to find X number of items, and that all levels have an adequate number of secret areas to uncover. These things were ultimately lacking in Unreal 2, and so I just blasted through most of the missions in a very short time, and it lacked replayability as a result. Elite Force 2, by comparison, had lots of secret areas, and hidden 'starships' to find to unlock more levels. I admit my starship tally was quite pitiful - I only unlocked two of the additional levels. So the challenge is to go back to that game and uncover more. It doesn't matter that the 'starships' don't make a great deal of sense and have no bearing whatsoever on the story or gameplay, because you get something extra at the end. I must say I prefer it, though, when the 'items' to uncover, and the secret areas to find, are integrated more into the game itself, by providing you with something you can use within the game.
I don't think there will be very much 'exploration', except maybe some of those secret areas :) But as the screenshots tell you, some levels are more open than in JO and that is a big improvement, I find that sufficient to give JA a more immersive (sp?) feeling!
Stormhammer, I find that your descrption of level design really gave me an insight into hopefully, what to expect from JKA. I even had a curious idea. Just imagine, JKO/JKA on the same engine as that of SWG? Graphically it won't add up, but in terms of size....the possibilities.
Originally posted by nykel007
Stormhammer, I find that your descrption of level design really gave me an insight into hopefully, what to expect from JKA. I even had a curious idea. Just imagine, JKO/JKA on the same engine as that of SWG? Graphically it won't add up, but in terms of size....the possibilities.
Actually they just need to use a newer engine like the Doom 3 engine to be able to do large enviroments...maybe they'll use it for the 'real' Jedi Knight III...
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Actually they just need to use a newer engine like the Doom 3 engine to be able to do large enviroments...maybe they'll use it for the 'real' Jedi Knight III...
Really? You have details into that? I thought Doom3 was about detail and realism ... few enemies and small spaces.
The Unreal engine seems better at big spaces (and interaction, for that matter)
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
The Unreal engine seems better at big spaces (and interaction, for that matter)
Mike
You're right, to an extent, but when I played Unreal 2, I was very aware of the actual boundaries of the play area. You could physically see the boundaries on some levels because you suddenly had a cliff edge leading to nowhere, or cliffs rising up around the level. There could have been a better use of generic terrain projected into the distance to fool you into thinking some levels were actually larger, even if you couldn't traverse them.
The problem is obviously in level of detail. The greater the detail and complexity of the level, the less you can 'project' to a given horizon, I think. It can be overcome to an extent by using static images as backdrops (as seen in many of UT2K3's levels), but you are still aware of them as static images.
I'll be far more interested to see what the newer engines can achieve, like those for STALKER and Far Cry, where you are supposed to be able to see over a considerable distance, and actually traverse that terrain. The problem with boundaries will no doubt still exist, but I believe the terrain itself will be more expansive than can be achieved with the Unreal engine, so you will probably have further to travel to encounter those boundaries.
Anyway, as I stated above, a lot can be achieved to 'fool the eye' and encourage more exploration of smaller spaces, through clever and intricate level design and the appropriate game mechanics.
personally i liked the JO SP game. the only con was having pathetically easy saber battles (baring Desann who is hard because of his force, not saber skills).
i don't want JA to be like the tomb raider series which are hard because you simply don't know where to go, not to do with the enemies. i really didn't like this aspect of the Tomb Raider games(tho i still passed the second game lol?) and as a result many of the new games have sp modes like SOF2 where the levels are rather straight foward as a higher number of gamers enjoy not having to spend hours on a level or resorting to a walkthrough, simply just because the levels are ridiculasly complex.
if JA is hard i want it to be because of lightsaber battles not coz i don't know wtf to go.... and i'd also like it that saber battles would be actually made HARD this time, and that they are hard NOT because the computer always win because of stupid specials (ie the lunge), but because they actually get the upperhand in the saber fight
my 2 cents ;)
I don't think JA will be THAT massive, and you won't have trouble finding your way. I didn't have that problem in JO (although some people were screaming for a map :rolleyes: ) and probably won't have it in JA, even while the maps seem to be larger...
The only thing that can make it too difficult are useless puzzles :) But you'll get over that pretty soon I think, cause the way I see it, JA will be a lot like JO and good JO players won't have trouble playing it :) And that's a good thing!
Originally posted by HertogJan
I don't think JA will be THAT massive, and you won't have trouble finding your way. I didn't have that problem in JO (although some people were screaming for a map :rolleyes: ) and probably won't have it in JA, even while the maps seem to be larger...
exactly! JO's sp maps were so easy, yet did that make it any less enjoyable? no! probably more.
and i agree, a map is of no real use imo
Originally posted by StormHammer
You're right, to an extent, but when I played Unreal 2, I was very aware of the actual boundaries of the play area. You could physically see the boundaries on some levels because you suddenly had a cliff edge leading to nowhere, or cliffs rising up around the level.
<...snip...>
Anyway, as I stated above, a lot can be achieved to 'fool the eye' and encourage more exploration of smaller spaces, through clever and intricate level design and the appropriate game mechanics. As usual I agree - Unreal II was very limited in that way. Most people with any taste didn't play Postal 2, but I did a swapped Unreal II for it with a friend and played through. It uses the Unreal II engine, and is much more explorable, and you don't tend to run into the edges so much.
Does that mean the levels are bigger? Not really, it is about the way they are designed. But that type of design is not trivial ... I hope that the Swoop level takes the SoF train level to the next tier ...
Mike
the levels are alot bigger, but still not massive, becuase the train thing i know wont be used because of some screens i saw, there is places to get off the bike on, and then get back on, and at anytime the people on the other bikes you can kill and take theres, so it wont be the stupid train thing.
They're supposed to be very large, but still linear, so there isn't as much to explore and look at.
to me jedi academy will not be that big. i meen jedi outcast was 665 mb and they used some of the same textures over and over again that what they will do with jedi academy.
Originally posted by txa1265
Really? You have details into that? I thought Doom3 was about detail and realism ... few enemies and small spaces.
The Unreal engine seems better at big spaces (and interaction, for that matter)
Mike
People have experiemented with the Doom 3 leak and have found that they can do terrain the size of the radiant grid (this is rather large ;) )...because this has to do with the leak I can't go into more detail...
Still, think of what the original Quake III Arena was capable of...now think of the size of the levels Raven is managing in JA. I would think that Raven should be able to do some amazing stuff with the Doom 3 engine. :)
Originally posted by Gabrobot
Still, think of what the original Quake III Arena was capable of...now think of the size of the levels Raven is managing in JA. I would think that Raven should be able to do some amazing stuff with the Doom 3 engine. :)
Of course you're right, but not right away. Half-Life couldn't handle large areas they said. True, but now we have some pretty huge maps made for the various mods... It's all because a) we get to know the engine better and b) our hardware gets better and can handle big areas anyway.
Same with Deus Ex; it had HUGE open areas, something everyone thought the Unreal Tournament engine couldn't manage!
So after a couple of years, Raven can make ****ing huge maps with the D3 engine :D I believe though, that D3 can handle larger areas than the Q3 one, just a matter of evolution. It won't be able to show the detail used in smaller maps though...
Another thing - exploration isn't just about map size, it is about what you put in it. Indeed, it might be MORE about what you put into the map than anything else. That was partially what I was talking about with respect to Unreal Engine - the level of interaction in games with that engine is greater than is typical for Q3 engine games.
Another interesting 'exploration' is the terrain damage from the Red Faction games. I only ever played the demo from Red Faction, but just picked up RF 2 for cheap (one of those used game deals at EB), and have been playing it this weekend. The game isn't much to speak of, but the environmental damage is pretty cool - you have to get out of a train station, and the only way if to blow through a wall with your grenade launcher ...
Another this is just the little snippets - JKII was full of them - from conversations, to the war room on Yavin IV to the the R2/C3PO pair where one says 'thank the maker' :)
Mike
Originally posted by HertogJan
I don't think JA will be THAT massive, and you won't have trouble finding your way. I didn't have that problem in JO (although some people were screaming for a map :rolleyes: ) and probably won't have it in JA, even while the maps seem to be larger...
You couldn't get lost in JO if you tried.... it had the most linear design of any FPS i have played... most games at least make more of an effort to disguise the fact that there was only one way to go.
The odd side room would be nice.
I think what made it really obious in JO was that you would have a room, only one door opens.... you go through that room, do stuff, then get back to te first room and MAGICALLY you can now open the other door... shudder.
Almost no games are actually non0linear... ther trick is to disguise it.
Originally posted by toms
You couldn't get lost in JO if you tried.... it had the most linear design of any FPS i have played... most games at least make more of an effort to disguise the fact that there was only one way to go.
Almost no games are actually non0linear... ther trick is to disguise it.
Starting with RtCW, 2002 - 2003 have not been good years for non-linearity. I actually found JKII about the best ... some areas especially in Yavin at the end were very good in providing an open 'feel' (quotes because I agree with your last statement).
As I say, RtCW was very linear, and MoHAA was tremendously linear - I really wanted to explore, and kept bumping against the edge of the world ... Serious Sam SE, same.
SoFII was stunning in its' linearity. I stated over a year ago that it felt like the map paths were traced with an Etch-a-Sketch and then textured. The most non-linear spot was when you had to jump on some stuff to get to anair duct late in the game. Oh, and in case you managed to get stuck for more than 2 seconds, someone would start shooting at you from the exact direction you needed to travel.
This year has been pretty bad too - as StormHammer said, even with the new engine, Unreal II was very linear, and you constantly ran into edges. Postal 2 looked explorable at least, as long as you didn't push it. Elite Force 2 was very, very linear. Red Faction II (I know this is a few months old, but I'm just playing it now) is also very linear - GeoMod doesn't help when THEY choose what you can destroy (e.g. you can blot apart concrete pillars and walls ... but not a metal door :rolleyes: ).
Jedi Academy I expect to be fun, more explorable than JKII - especially in terms of 'cameos'. I'm looking forward to Chewie, and am sure there will be fun stuff on Tatooine and Hoth ...
Mike
JA is gonna be the bomb, cant wait
Originally posted by taekwondo joe
JA is gonna be the bomb, cant wait ... no, JA is gonna be da' Thermal Detonator, can't wait ;) :D
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
... no, JA is gonna be da' Thermal Detonator, can't wait ;) :D
Mike
Yeah and da' detpack and da' tripmine :) But most of all it's going to be LIGHTSABER!! And YODA of course :)
If they can make the areas at least the scope of JK that would be dope. Personally, i think you can make huge areas with the Q3 engine, but you have to know where to place your area portals so as not to make the engine render the whole level. I actually think they should use the halo engine as it allowed for some wide open areas and good use of terrain.
When I finish Jedi Academy ...
Yoda t's da most saber-ific game eva, it done triped my mine out to who the hoth knows where ...
:)
I am so utterly unhip in terms of street talk and 1337 speak I have to laugh in my own general direction ...
Mike
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
If they can make the areas at least the scope of JK that would be dope. Personally, i think you can make huge areas with the Q3 engine, but you have to know where to place your area portals so as not to make the engine render the whole level. I actually think they should use the halo engine as it allowed for some wide open areas and good use of terrain.
The problem is actually the shader limit...it's 1024 in Jedi Knight II, and if you're using Q3map2 it's very easy to hit the limit...I've had to split a couple of my levels in half because I put terrain in and that was enough to push it over the limit.
I would think that Raven would have to have raised the limit in JA since I remember reading something that said they were using Q3map2, and that their levels are twice as large as JKII's...