The Bible is FULL OF contradictions. According to it, God kills every first-born in Egypt and then drowns a battalion of the Egyptian army. Then he tells Moses that it is wrong to kill.

It is wrong for humans to kill.But God made us, why cant God take us away? I believe that whatever happens is for Gods will and is good in the end for Christians.

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
I believe that whatever happens is for Gods will and is good in the end for Christians.

Well gay people 'happened' therefore that is God's will.
He may have destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah, but he hasn't spent every day since killing people simply for being gay.
Therefore it is God's will that there are gay people. QED.

Accept it as such.

B.

Originally posted by BLaCKouT_1138
Well gay people 'happened' therefore that is God's will.
He may have destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah, but he hasn't spent every day since killing people simply for being gay.
Therefore it is God's will that there are gay people. QED.

Accept it as such.

B.

No, times have changed since the Old Testament. God doesnt intervene as much as he used to.

And gay bashing just happened so accept it as such:rolleyes: You can use that argument for abuot anything

Originally posted by Homuncul
Please name one, if not some unpleasent mutation, I would agree with you then. I heard there are only sexual and asexual replication, gay animals can't replicate themselves, while everything we know bout nature says that it wants to consume and multiply, if it doesn't it's eliminated by natural selection. Do gay animals gene replicate themselves, I think they have no such opportunity, so they live and die and nothing more.
frogs and toads can reproduce having gay sex. but only on rare occasions such as harvest moons and drought. watch jurassic park. also they have gay sex store the sperm transmorph into a "female"(they actually just form eggs to be fertalized)

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
No, times have changed since the Old Testament. God doesnt intervene as much as he used to.
Correct. Times have changed since the New Testament as well.

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
And gay bashing just happened so accept it as such:rolleyes:
I don't share your religious beliefs Thrackan. Therefore I don't have to accept 'God's Will'.
'Gay bashing' is wrong. Period.
It's up there with racism.

B.

First of all, I know that what I am about to say will offend many people in here. I don't care - almost half of you have succeded in offending me in this thread, and I'm merely stating an opinion.

The Bible is a load of rubbish.

I'm not just saying this because you are using it to back up your arguments, oh no. I've always held religion in the exact same view - rubbish. I don't believe in a God, and I don't worship or practice any faith. So, anyone coming to me arguing with religion can walk straight back out again... bye now.

As for raising children who have two fathers, I think that could be viewed as totally wrong by a majority. However, here in Great Britain, a gay couple have adopted a child successfully. I can't see how this affects the child in the long run - after all, you are BORN homosexual, so what can having two fathers do to you? Nothing. Myself and Anthony have no plans to start a family, and I can't see that changing. I don't really get on well with kids, anyway (they vomit, cry and cost money).
The situation in Great Britain is one of tolerance. There are more 'gay bars' here in London than you can shake a stick at (excuse the pun). Generally, people don't mind, or care, what goes on behind closed doors, as long as it doesn't affect them. I can live with that. My family have been a great support, especially my mother, who didn't like the fact at first but realised I was still her son at the end of the day, whatever my sexuality.

Oh, and Jah Warrior, I have to agree - lesbians scare the hell out of me! At least I have the sense to sleep with men... no offence to any lesbians out there, I'm sure you're perfectly nice people.

I'm getting the general picture that many of you simply don't believe in homosexuality. It's not that you hate gay people, and well done you. I can see that, if your religion says it's wrong, you won't agree with the concept. Fine, absolutely fine... just remember that not all gay guys are like me - I know a guy who is deeply religious and homosexual at the same time. He gets along perfectly, many of the people at his church accepting him for what he is - a fellow man.
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who you love. You could sleep with guys or girls, but it's the person inside the counts. Anthony is a funny, charming, generous and happy person, but just because he's homosexual shouldn't automatically make him evil, or wrong, or a criminal of some sort. No-one here knew I was gay until yesterday, and you didn't need to... people were still nice to me, joking and playing the odd RPG. At the end of the day, I'm still me. No change. Me.

Oh, and another preconception that can be destroyed here and now - just because I'm gay, doesn't make me camp or woman-like. We don't all run round wearing flowery dresses shouting in high-pitched voices. Before I told people, no-one had the slightest idea that I was a homosexual. I actually walked into a bar once (exclusively for gay men) and found everyone staring at me, thinking I wasn't gay at all.
I love beer, I watch football, I know all about cars and nothing about gardening. Still a guy, not some dangerous half-breed.

I do find it funny, though - my favourite film character, James Bond, is possibly the straightest man in the universe! Interesting, no?

Originally posted by Die Another Day
There are more 'gay bars' here in London than you can shake a stick at (excuse the pun).

Ouch. :p Sorry, no excuse. :D

As for Anakin's fear of gays hitting on straight men, I'd say the fear is unfounded. Would you hit on lesbians as well? What if you were getting all worked up over girl and in the middle of the conversation, she calmly says that her sexual preference unfortunately excludes you - would you then politely exit, or continue pestering her?

...'Coz I can you tell you right now that that's what gay men feel about you, and they sure aren't monstrous rapists, just like you aren't either.


Now, for the "unnatural" argument: Imagine if you and your heterosexuality were in the minority. Everyone around you was telling you that it's unnatural to love the opposite sex. But you couldn't understand it. They wanted you to love men, even though you had a girlfriend and couldn't imagine being with other men. You had always felt this way, even though all the movies and books had told you it was the other way around. It is unnatural, they say - people should stick to their own sex, just like they had always done. Yet you still couldn't understand it, it just felt awkward to love other men that way - like being told that rocks are indeed a nourishing food source. It feels so wrong, on a gut level, to eat those rocks and love those men.

That's how those unnatural, other people are feeling about this injustice. It's very natural for them, just like you couldn't possibly take someone serious if they told you to quit loving girls and start loving boys.

Because I believe it is wrong. How am I being a hypocrit for stating my opinion? That is the exact OPPOSITE of a hypocrite.
Because first you bashed someone else, namely the people who are attracted to their own gender, and then you react to C'Jais when he attacks you for it.

If you attacked someone, you've got to tolerate that someone attacks you. If you can't stand the fact that people are going to answer you, don't post.

Now, for the "unnatural" argument: Imagine if you and your heterosexuality were in the minority. Everyone around you was telling you that it's unnatural to love the opposite sex. But you couldn't understand it. They wanted you to love men, even though you had a girlfriend and couldn't imagine being with other men. You had always felt this way, even though all the movies and books had told you it was the other way around. It is unnatural, they say - people should stick to their own sex, just like they had always done. Yet you still couldn't understand it, it just felt awkward to love other men that way - like being told that rocks are indeed a nourishing food source. It feels so wrong, on a gut level, to eat those rocks and love those men.
Beutiful.

I believe that one of the things that should be done is that should be done is ban teaching in christian private schools about the negative parts of "gayness". Sure, they are allowed to teach the Bible, but look at laws that forbid a teacher to say bad things about different ethnic groups and culture groups, such as African-Americans. How long after it came out do you think people would start reacting when it came out? Private school or not, the teacher would get attacked for breaking the law by insulting an ethnic group -[i]even if he was quoting the Bible or the writings of some other religious/sect. So how can a christian fanatic teacher get away with subtly teaching kids to hate homosexuals?

Name one teacher who's gotten away with being reported for saying stuff like "all Nigerians are going to Hell for being Nigerians"?

PS: Yes, I heard about the bishop in the UK. I also heard about a minister in Norway (not as in priest-minister, but a minister in a political party;)) who had managed to rise to the powerful position of finance minister in his party. He even maintained this position after marrying a man (which is legal in Norway).

All I have to say is this: Aside from our right to excersise religion, I cannot see how the government thinks it's any of their business to dig around in our religious/private life. What's next, a law that forbids Muslims from refusing to faste? A law that forbids Buddhists and Hindus from eating meat?

This thread is dragging me in, even though I know I should stay away. ;)

Originally posted by Homuncul
Please name one, if not some unpleasent mutation, I would agree with you then. I heard there are only sexual and asexual replication, gay animals can't replicate themselves, while everything we know bout nature says that it wants to consume and multiply, if it doesn't it's eliminated by natural selection. Do gay animals gene replicate themselves, I think they have no such opportunity, so they live and die and nothing more.

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm)

(note I don't agree with everything on that page, like that human beings are animals, but it's got what you asked for ;))

The Bible is a load of rubbish.
I'm not just saying this because you are using it to back up your arguments, oh no. I've always held religion in the exact same view - rubbish. I don't believe in a God, and I don't worship or practice any faith. So, anyone coming to me arguing with religion can walk straight back out again... bye now.

If your going to say that the Bible is rubbish and what your saying is you dont like Christians then what is so wrong with me saying being gay is rubbish?
:confused:


Oh, and Jah Warrior, I have to agree - lesbians scare the hell out of me! At least I have the sense to sleep with men... no offence to any lesbians out there, I'm sure you're perfectly nice people.

How can you cry about people bashing you and not accepting you when you dont even like lesbians and say they are scary. Dont be a hypocrite.:rolleyes:

i dont like gays. i mean, its just isck. but im not homophobic. if a kid is gay, so what? i mean, os what if he is, thats his lifestyle and i got my own.

what im trying to say is even if u dont like someone for who they are, they still deserve some dignity.

I dunno, dude, there are some lesbians I've met that freak me out too. I mean, mostly the real man-hating lesbians. Those ones that spike their hair and look like guys. Several I've met always acted really hostile towards me and any other man I saw them encounter.

Certainly not downing lesbians. But I'd rather have a guy wanting to sleep with me than a girl wanting to kill me. ;)

Not true InsaneSith, i know 2 lesbians and there nice quit people who never speak a word, just cause you a lesbian or gay doesn't mean you can't act like a guy/girl.

Originally posted by Homuncul
Please name one, if not some unpleasent mutation, I would agree with you then. I heard there are only sexual and asexual replication, gay animals can't replicate themselves, while everything we know bout nature says that it wants to consume and multiply, if it doesn't it's eliminated by natural selection. Do gay animals gene replicate themselves, I think they have no such opportunity, so they live and die and nothing more.

well i must say that i have no idea what the above means when translated to english, however:-

there are gay chimpanzees, horses, dogs... to name but a few. Its widely documented and has in fact been the subject of numerous natural history documentaries.

Originally posted by InsaneSith
frogs and toads can reproduce having gay sex. but only on rare occasions such as harvest moons and drought. watch jurassic park. also they have gay sex store the sperm transmorph into a "female"(they actually just form eggs to be fertalized) once again. hom.. i beleieve you have been owned.:)

Originally posted by Arkum
i dont like gays. i mean, its just isck. but im not homophobic.

This is my favourite one so far!
I do get what you're saying about dignity, and letting someone lead their life an'all. But you've got to admit you didn't choose those words very well.

dykes are bullish man hating lesbians.
I think InsaneSith meant the term 'dykes' as a type of lesbian, not an all-encompassing term for lesbians. Because there sure are different types.

B.

formerly i stated that butch lesbians scare me. This is not true really, its lesbians with MULLETS that scare me!!! you know! the ones on Trisha :p hehe.

ANYONE with a mullet scares me.:)

Originally posted by InsaneSith
ANYONE with a mullet scares me.:)

right on, i'm an extreme mulletaphobic

DAD quote:
Oh, and Jah Warrior, I have to agree - lesbians scare the hell out of me! At least I have the sense to sleep with men... no offence to any lesbians out there, I'm sure you're perfectly nice people.

Thrackan Quote:-
How can you cry about people bashing you and not accepting you when you dont even like lesbians and say they are scary. Dont be a hypocrite.

I'm sure that DAD will be first to correct me if i'm wrong, but i assume he means that he cannot see how a man can find a woman attractive let alone a woman finding a woman attractive. Its clearly just humour on DAD's part.

Come on peeps you simply must have a sense of humour in there somewhere.

BTW I'm just having a chat with my mum about the christian faith and homosexuality, she's a sunday school teacher so it could be either very funny or very interesting, maybe both :D

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
If your going to say that the Bible is rubbish and what your saying is you dont like Christians then what is so wrong with me saying being gay is rubbish?

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it is highly likely homosexuals are born as homosexuals. Homosexuality isn't a belief system in that case. Christianity, on the other hand is. This is but one of the worlds mainstream religions.

If, as some current findings indicate, homosexuality is true, then the real question is how will this benefit a species considering natural selection?

The answer might be found in looking at other species that have "self-destructive" (I use that term, since not being able to reproduce limits a species' ability to evolve). Bees are a good example. They've evolved over millions of years but have one flaw: once they sting another animal, they die. (the stinger pulls out nerve bundles, part of the digestive tract, etc.) So how could "suicide" be good for the species? The answer is that the hive itself is protected by a few sacrifices. The good of the many, outweighs the needs of the few so to speak.

One could look at homosexuality in much the same light. Overpopulation creates many problems for a society. There are many unwanted children in the world. There are many orphans of war and calamity. Food production is sufficient, but delivery and affordability is consistently problematic. For a few of our species to sacrifice themselves by not reproducing would seem to be a good thing.

Here's another thought: If homosexuality is hereditary, will not the gene pool clean itself up only if the practice is accepted and encouraged? If it is not hereditary (and it certainly cannot be contagious), then what is the problem? Homosexuals are largely interested only in Homosexuals. I've yet to see them go door-to-door asking to teach the skin-flute and spread their 'word.'

Another indication that homosexual and bisexual behavior can be beneficial to society would be to look at the bonobo monkey. This is a society that is almost exclusively bisexual. There is also very little in-house squabbles that occur. The sexual contacts between same sex monkies appears to be designed to create a harmonious society. The only problem I've noted about homosexuals in human society is the hatred that alleged non-homosexuals have toward them.

Revulsion is a cultural bias that is learned. Hatred comes from fear. One has to wonder what it is about homosexual behavior that is truly feared?

Originally posted by SkinWalker
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it is highly likely homosexuals are born as homosexuals. Homosexuality isn't a belief system in that case. Christianity, on the other hand is. This is but one of the worlds mainstream religions.

I get what your saying SK, but I believe that humans are born sinful and we can choose whether to embrace God or fall into the pit of sin.
And the reason I say being gay is "rubbish" is because if DaD is getting upset about people "gay-bashing", how do you think I would feel when he insults my religion and basically calls me and other Christans rubbish? If he can call my beliefs rubbish and I am not complaining about anything or asking for sympathy, then why cant he "take it like a man" and deal with it?:confused:

* Deleted most of the post you quoted... it seemed unnecessary, particularly since that post is directly above yours. --Skin

Originally posted by Thrackan Solo
I get what your saying SK, but I believe that humans are born sinful and we can choose whether to embrace God or fall into the pit of sin.
And the reason I say being gay is "rubbish" is because if DaD is getting upset about people "gay-bashing", how do you think I would feel when he insults my religion and basically calls me and other Christans rubbish? If he can call my beliefs rubbish and I am not complaining about anything or asking for sympathy, then why cant he "take it like a man" and deal with it?:confused:

Basically you have a choice whether to be a christian or not, DAD has no choice, he just is! Just like i have no choice as to whether I am black or white purple or green.

people become christian, you are not born christian, where as you just are gay there is no choice involved. Hence to descriminate against a person on the basis of their sexuality is prejudice or biggotry or ignorance as you please. Pick whichever description suits you best :p

Originally posted by C'jais
As for Anakin's fear of gays hitting on straight men, I'd say the fear is unfounded.

oh you think my "fear" is unfounded? how about some gay guy trying to "convert" me while i was passed out at a party, is that unfounded? i think not, to me that's a VERY good reason to be skeptical about ALL gays until they earn my respect and trust that they WON'T try to do me when i'm unconscious, THAT'S why my opinions are what they are, you can't say that i don't know what i'm talking about, i have had first hand experience and since you won't be satisfied w/my opinions, you now have my reasons, now does anyone else wanna tell me my opinions are unfounded?

Not only do I think your fears are unfounded, but I think you should edit your post so that your quoted text is less than your reply. Only quote what is necessary. It was not necessary to quote his entire post.

Now... If I was robbed by a black man, should I question all black people until they earn my respect?

If I am the victim of prejudice from a white person, should I suspect all white-eyes of racism?

Those fears are unfounded and unfair. The control group for my study was too small.

The control group for your study is too small to make those broad, sweeping assumptions about homosexuals. Afterall, heterosexuals have been known to get liquered up and take sexual advantage of others. Therefore, your fears must be grounded in some other experience or observation.

Perhaps this person made an assumption about your sexual orientation and desire to engage in this type of behavior... after all, you did "pass out at a party," which indicates substance abuse and poor decision making in the first place (particularly based upon your age).

I realize that last paragraph will likely piss you off, but my intent is not to enrage you, but rather to engage you. In critical thinking, that is. Assumptions work in all directions and are most dangerous when there is a lack of information.

Just quickly, Thrackan Solo seems to have misread my last post. Cheers Jah Warrior for defending me while I was away.

Firstly, I DO NOT hate Christianity. That's a mean thing to say, and I certainly don't think that the whole idea is total rubbish. I said, IN MY OPINION, that I don't agree with the beliefs and views held by Christians... perhaps my wording of my feelings was a little harsh, but I definately do not hate religion and people who follow a certain faith. I just said I THOUGHT it was nonsense from my point of view. I'm not religious, that's what I meant.

Secondly, I have many lesbian friends. My little joke about lesbians wasn't meant ot be offensive or anti-lesbian in any way (that's why I said 'no offence to any lesbians out there' at the end of my comment.). It was a joke, people! Maybe not a funny one, but I laughed... however, according to many people out here, I'm sick and twisted anyway, so what's the problem?

Now, ep2 Anakin, you and I better have a little chat -
Your experiance of a gay guy trying to 'convert' you while you were passed out is, I can assure you, VERY RARE. This guy, whoever he was, was either drunk himself or incredibly stupid. Now, whether anything actually happened or you stopped him is totally your business, and I'm not trying to pry here, but this sort of thing NEVER happens (normally). The guy needs a serious slap round the face if he was thinking straight, because it's totally wrong to take advantage of passed-out-straight-people. Either that, or it was a complament because he thought you were cute... but it's still 100% wrong. Normal gay guys would never, EVER do such a thing.

i think not, to me that's a VERY good reason to be skeptical about ALL gays until they earn my respect and trust that they WON'T try to do me when i'm unconscious, THAT'S why my opinions are what they are,

Man, if I thought the way you did, I'd be a card carrying member of the KKK. Read what you wrote there. To sum it up...

"A gay guy once tried to have sex with me when I was drunk at a party, so that's why I dont trust any gay guys!"

Does that really make any sense?

now does anyone else wanna tell me my opinions are unfounded?

Sure do. Your opinions are unfounded. Why? Because you are making broad assumptions and generalizations about an entire population based on your experiences with one or two members of said population. It's not fair. Shall I judge all Wisconsinites (sp?) by your actions here? I certainly hope not....

w00t!?!!

the thread is now descending into pointless bickering!

Yay for reasoned debate :rolleyes:

if it's the first option then **** off you p.o.s.,

Ok, now thats something you shouldnt say here no matter what someone else said.

and people in wyoming know how to handle their alcohol,

Here's my opinion. If you get so bombed that you pass out... you didnt know how to handle your alcohol.

Anyway, it still isnt fair to be skeptical of every gay person, because you havent met every gay person. Furthermore, you are not a dog. You are a human being. You should be able to distinguish, and understand that not every gay guy in the world is the prick that you ran into at that party.

EDIT: i'll retract the profanity when skinwalker clears up as to why it's in there in the first place. NONE of you understand because NONE of you have had that experience. you say now "i wouldn't think that way, it's just one guy" whatever, i'm not even gonna try to make anyone understand what I'M thinking and WHY i'm thinking it, have some gay guy try to rape you when you just wanna have fun w/friends and then tell me that you still trust all gay men because "just one" of the many gay men in existence tried to do that. it has a VAST impact on your life afterwards, especially since i'm still in high school. none of you will EVER understand so it's useless for me to even TRY to make you unerstand and see what i'm seeing, but whatever, that's my opinion and i stick with it til the end of time and NOBODY can tell me otherwise because also in my mind, and probably in EVERY mind in wyoming, that's foundation for mistrust.

God, I hate it when people do this. "NONE of you understand because NONE of you have had that experience."

How do you know?

have some gay guy try to rape you when you just wanna have fun w/friends and then tell me that you still trust all gay men because "just one" of the many gay men in existence tried to do that. Thats exactly what we're telling you.

none of you will EVER understand

I think most of us are too mature to think that way.
probably in EVERY mind in wyoming

Have you met every person in Wyoming? No? Then dont say things like that. It's a discredit to EVERY mind in Wyoming.

at first this was a resonable debate.

if more crap gets thrown around and attacks are made to any members, regardless of thier sexual preferences (and in my opinon thats just what it is. A sexual preference, its like prefering drinking Coca-Cola over Pepsi. I know the comparaison is over simplified, but its the best way to proove my point. It shouldnt matter if you drink pepsi or coke.)

Anyways, enough about my personnal opinion and back to my warning.

If more crap gets tossed at people and more insults this thread will be closed. Its a shame, it started off pretty well with mature debates. Clean up your acts. And for all those that swore and insulted an other, say your sorry publicly (on this thread). If nothing is done and its still a slug fest I'm closing this thread for good.

Sorry
-jackal

and in my opinon thats just what it is. A sexual preference, its like prefering drinking Coca-Cola over Pepsi. I know the comparaison is over simplified, but its the best way to proove my point. It shouldnt matter if you drink pepsi or coke.)

Best way ive seen it put all thread.
I agree 120% with that comment.

Originally posted by ep2 Anakin

EDIT: i'll retract the profanity when skinwalker clears up as to why it's in there in the first place.

Better idea... I'll retract it for you. Post deleted.

And to answer your question, I put that phrase in quotations because they were your words.... quoted. Nothing more.

Assumptions.

Originally posted by TheJackal
If nothing is done and its still a slug fest I'm closing this thread for good.

C'Jais and I have already discussed closing... we agreed that if it continues to get out of hand, this might happen.

One more offensive post and I'll close it myself. I only leave it open now because you issued a warning.

Bah. Now my post looks like I'm talking to myself! ;) :D

I did leave the quote in place, but I think everyone gets the drift.......

Actually, I should've realized Ep2Anakin's propensity for flying off the handle when he feels offended. My goal wasn't troll this response but rather to point out the problem with assumptions. But then, if one is that easily offended then perhaps one shouldn't participate in controversial debates.

Still, he has my apology if he feels that I sought an ad hominim attack. He's free to PM me if still in need to vent.

I'll wait to see what DaD feels like. He's been offended by a few people and see how he feels about it now.

I know that my warning more or less killed off this thread, I hope it doesnt. Debates can be the most stimulating intellectual thing one can do.

But I hope you guys understand how rare it is for me to actually post a warning. I'm probebly the most easy going admin around. Allmost never did wave around my magic admin stick to anything. Its too bad I have to do it in the Senate Chambers.

well, jack,

I find it interesting that the people that were vociferously anti-gay are now saying nothing... is this because they know that the intolerant attitude is indeed wrong?

interesting, interesting indeed!

they know they have lost because they are behind in times with their alpha male, prehistoric ideology.

Hmmm... Insane Sith and Jah Warrior I would agree with yous a little the warning has stopped those type of people but I have a feeling others have nothing futher to say (myself included). Instead of people just debating some just... well yous all know. I posted on this but no one has questioned my post so does that mean you thought it was sound? Anyway I'll only post when I feel its called for. :yoda: