i think that this game would have a better name for itself if it was anounced as a expansion pack, but as a individual game, it's too much like the original. Im a huge starwars fan and game fan and im still buying this game and like it but i dont think this game is gonna be a huge smash.
Im not too convinced either. I saw the promo "trailer" from E3 and it looks like its going to be circle strafing and hack'n'slash once again. But I believe Raven will suprise us, because they've barely revealed anything.
I don't think that JA will be on any major magazines top-10 list, or GOTY for action. There are too many others out there - HL2, DOOMIII, Deus Ex - that are 'revolutionary', when JA is 'evolutionary'.
That said, JKII was a very solid game - rated ~90%, close to MoHAA and better than most other FPS other than Deus Ex and HL. Again, even JKII was not really revolutionary - MP was nothing really new (except duel, perhaps), and SP was well done, perhaps the excellent saber system could be considered revolutionary, but I see it as a fantastic realization of a fundamental desire to slice stormtroopers :)
I think that if they had come out with a small Expansion pack (remember, MOH:Spearhead's SP was ~3 hours) in ~January it would have been a big splash. But they are doing something more - character building, all-new sabers and styles, new plots and players, SP game as big as JO (which was the biggest I've played since Deus Ex, perhaps since JK!), and revamped MP with additional game-modes.
So - I'm not disappointed, and I think when 2003 ends, JA will top my list of the years' faves, and probably my all-time fave as well. But I think I'll be in the minority - I think most will have JA in their top 5 action games, but not much more than that.
Mike
I personally don't much care if it's a hit or not, as long as it's good, which I hope it will be.
It may not be a 'huge smash' as you put it...probably not in the same league as the hotly anticipated Half-Life 2, Doom 3 etc., but then I don't think it really has to be. The series is obviously successful, or they would not keep making the games. Just looking at these forums, you can see that the community behind the game is quite large, even with all of the problems that dogged Jedi Outcast.
In my view, they don't have to try and make it 'the best game out there', or aim for GOTY, even though that would be a nice achievement. They have got the mix of ingredients almost just right in this series, and I'd hate to see them change those ingredients too much. As I've said before, the gameplay is solid and entertaining, the play time is a decent length, the gameplay mechanics work. There are not very many ways you can alter something like saber combat, for example. A new engine would be nice, but on the whole, not essential, and in fact would probably alienate some of those gamers on lower end rigs who still want to play this series of games.
These games are like the bread-and-butter, with good sales and a good fan base. Anyway, what they are trying with JA does sound more radical than a lot of other FPS games out there at the moment (in terms of the tiered mission choices at least), and if they can pull it off (and I'm pretty certain they will), it could be a new model for other SPs in the future.
... and what's wrong with just being a really good playing game? Unreal II was 'revolutionary', and hyped pretty well, but was just mediocre (at best). JO was widely considered an excellent game with some flaws. We have seen the cool features of HL2 and Doom3, but already know some of their compromises (and there *will* be more, of that I'm sure), and we assume that Deus Ex will be revolutionary, but I tend to think it will be a cool playing game with great graphics. (BTW - nothing wrong with that! I hope it rocks!)
So what is wrong with JA being a really fun game, with improved sabers, improved graphics, improved multiplayer, and hopefully a really fun plot?
I'm starting to see Elite Force II reviews - and they seem to be saying ... a relly cool game with some flaws, with mid-upper 80's ratings (based on 2 ;)) Is that a bad thing? In a gaming world filled with so much 60%-level crap, being a ~85-90% rated game across 4 games in a series, now possibly 5 ... not too bad.
Mike
I don't really care if it is "revolutionary". I don't really care whether or not it adds a bunch of features I've never seen before. As long as the game is fun, I'll be happy. Even if it turns out to be a tweeked JO (but it looks like much more than that), I'll be happy, because I loved most of the elements in JO.
The Enter the Matrix game is revolutionary in some respects (integration into the movie, motion capture by original stunt team), but from what I've heard, it is quite plain. Give me a fun game with familiar features any day.
If it is indeed a fun game, I think the fact that it is Star Wars will have it end up on some magazines top 10 lists.
Originally posted by Prime
The Enter the Matrix game is revolutionary in some respects (integration into the movie, motion capture by original stunt team), but from what I've heard, it is quite plain. Give me a fun game with familiar features any day.
If it is indeed a fun game, I think the fact that it is Star Wars will have it end up on some magazines top 10 lists.
Actually, the reviews put the 'Enter the Matrix' game as pure sh*t. It has sold loads based on hype ... it is just amazing that it keeps selling.
I agree - having a 'bankable' name doesn't hurt a game get attention. But if the game doesn't live up to the name it gets even more roundly thrashed.
Mike
JO would never have gotten half the scores it got if it hadn't been Star Wars based and a sequel to JK.
I did see a few 4/10 and 5/10 reviews out there that were a lot more objective than the 94% Best Game Ever???!? PC Gamer Reviews.
Originally posted by toms
JO would never have gotten half the scores it got if it hadn't been Star Wars based and a sequel to JK.
I did see a few 4/10 and 5/10 reviews out there that were a lot more objective than the 94% Best Game Ever???!? PC Gamer Reviews.
So bad reviews for JO make you 'objective' and a good review means you're blinded by 'Lucas-vision'? I just don't see it. If that were the case, Enter the Matrix would be getting good reviews. I looked at reviews a while ago, and 75% of the reviews were between 86% and 94%. And there are like 150 reviews. I know that reviews aren't an absolute indicator - previews are about the worst thing to go by - but they are fairly indicative.
Most reviews called the SP experience 'excellent' with flaws being mainly the slow start, and the MP being more or less standard fare, with the sabers and force powers giving an interesting twist.
Mike
Gamezone - 7.8 on a scale of 10
Gamespy - 76 on a 100 pt scale
IGN - 7.2 on a scale of 10
And I can't find my old PCGamer with the review in it, and pcgamer.com doesn't have it archived, but I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't 90%. JO was a fun game, but by no means was it ever going to be in contention for any game of the year voting, especially with the patch fiasco.
In response to the first post of this thread, Jedi Academy was supposed to be an expansion pack, but raven had "so much fun creating it" that they decided to make it a stand-alone game, much like many companies are doing these days. I mean, why make it just an expansion pack that will only sell for 25 bucks when they can make it a full game that sells for 45+ ????
It's all about the money these days. When I heard they were making this game I was quite disappointed. It should be just an expansion. But them pounding a whole game out just barely a year after JO was released tells me they're just trying to cash in on the game's popularity with the Star Wars fanbase. I mean it took what 6 years between JK1 and JO? Especially with the sweet new engines being developed and licensed now, why do they have to push us out another quake3 based game? I can't wait till next summer, we'll finally have a REAL FPS for star wars again with the sweet assed Unreal Warfare engine. If you don't know what I'm talking about go check out the LucasArts site and click on Republic Commando.
Makes me wish Raven had just made this an expansion and would wait till they're done QuakeIV to put out another full game.
With games like Doom III and Half-Life 2 on the horizon, I almost 100% guarantee that JA is going to go on the back burner immediately upon their release.
You know what? Who cares how much this game sells or how much better it will be and what possible rating it will get? I know for one that it WILL in fact be a better game with a lot more playing time and innovation in terms of nonlinearity as well as customization. Do i give a rats ass what someone elses inept opinion on the game will be? Nope. I've made up my mind, i've played JO, and i know this game will be awesome. Take my fifty bucks now.
This conversation is over.
Haha well yes, where can in fundamentally go wrong (sp?), cause Raven has experience with another JK game, which was great!! So it will be good at least, probably really really good! Of course there can be problems with balancing etc. but at least the SinglePlayer is going to be loads of fun.
i agree that the single player mode cannot really go too far wrong. JO, SOF2 and other games by raven have had great SP modes :D. i can't see how bad they can go?
however i am not fully confident about the mp mode, as with all the new sabers and force powers. it could go one of 2 ways.
A) they blow it by just chucking stuff in to make it "cool" at the expense of imbalance and other things
B) they use the new features to correct any imbalances and create a very good all round solid mp mode
I hope (B) !! :D
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
Gamezone - 7.8 on a scale of 10
Gamespy - 76 on a 100 pt scale
IGN - 7.2 on a scale of 10
And I can't find my old PCGamer with the review in it, and pcgamer.com doesn't have it archived, but I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't 90%. JO was a fun game, but by no means was it ever going to be in contention for any game of the year voting, especially with the patch fiasco.
Excuse me, but did you pull these numbers from a**hole #5 or just make them up to support your opinion?!?! I checked out all of your 'facts' ... they were all wrong. GameZone was 96%, GameSpy was 86%, IGN was 90%, PC Gamer UK was 94%, PC Gamer US was 91%. So actually JKII *was* in the high ranks of games last year, but MoHAA was a critical darling and reviewers were still in the afterglow of NOLF2 (both excellent games, but MOHAA's shortness was a real issue for me)
In response to the first post of this thread, Jedi Academy was supposed to be an expansion pack, but raven had "so much fun creating it" that they decided to make it a stand-alone game, much like many companies are doing these days. I mean, why make it just an expansion pack that will only sell for 25 bucks when they can make it a full game that sells for 45+ ????
Do you have a source for that quote? Or that info? I know we heard rumors aboutt an expansion, but I never saw anything official.
It's all about the money these days. When I heard they were making this game I was quite disappointed. It should be just an expansion. But them pounding a whole game out just barely a year after JO was released tells me they're just trying to cash in on the game's popularity with the Star Wars fanbase. I mean it took what 6 years between JK1 and JO? Especially with the sweet new engines being developed and licensed now, why do they have to push us out another quake3 based game? I can't wait till next summer, we'll finally have a REAL FPS for star wars again with the sweet assed Unreal Warfare engine. If you don't know what I'm talking about go check out the LucasArts site and click on Republic Commando.
It is ~1.5 years between JO and JA, about the same as between JK and MotS. But JA is much more a full game, IMO. But there is truth in your point - would MotS be released as an expansion today or a full game? MOH Spearhead sold for ~$35 as a 3-hour SP expansion!
Makes me wish Raven had just made this an expansion and would wait till they're done QuakeIV to put out another full game.
See I want all of the above. I think JA is well timed, and will be very satisfying. I also see its' MP and general press being overshadowed by HL2 et al. I am also looking forward to RepCom, but that is not a Jedi Saber game, so it will truly be just another pretty FPS. And I hope that another Jedi Knight game comes out on the new engines - Unreal Warfare is the most available, and games are just going to ship this fall with that.
A word of advice - don't play facts games with a phycisict / statistician ;)
Mike
Originally posted by HertogJan
Haha well yes, where can in fundamentally go wrong (sp?), cause Raven has experience with another JK game, which was great!! So it will be good at least, probably really really good! Of course there can be problems with balancing etc. but at least the SinglePlayer is going to be loads of fun.
Exactly my point! It seems some people got themselves so bothered about MP issues that they have decided that SP must have sucked. Look - I'll not deny that JO's MP didn't take over the 'net, and that there were several issues, some self-inflicted by Raven/LEC, some self-inflicted by the community (i.e. US). I have no idea how JA MP will do, but I'm pretty sure that the SP will be solid, fun and longer than just about anything else (EFII, supposedly so much longer than EFI, clocks in ~12 hrs I've heard).
Mike
They said that Star Wars Rebel Strike won best off E3 someone conferm that please than I can tell more.
:deathii: :deathstar :vsd: :x-wing:
Originally posted by Reclaimer
They said that Star Wars Rebel Strike won best off E3 someone conferm that please than I can tell more.
:deathii: :deathstar :vsd: :x-wing:
Um ... yes ... here's from the official site:
"Rebel Strike Wins Best of E3 Award!
Star Wars Rogue Squadron®III: Rebel Strike™ has received GameSpy's award for Best of E3 2003 GameCube Game of Show. "Rebel Strike slew gamers where they stood with its breathtaking visuals, sweet action gameplay and legendary soundtrack." Read on at GameSpy.com." (link is
http://www.gamespy.com/e32003/awards/index9.shtml) )
This looks cool - it may make me get a 'Cube ;)
But what does this have to do with Jedi Academy?
Mike
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
And I can't find my old PCGamer with the review in it, and pcgamer.com doesn't have it archived, but I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't 90%. JO was a fun game, but by no means was it ever going to be in contention for any game of the year voting, especially with the patch fiasco. As Mike said, "What are you talking about?"
There were tons of glowing reviews (
http://www.lucasarts.com/products/outcast/html/press.html), and it was under consideration for game of the year (
http://www.lucasarts.com/press/awards.htm) in some publications. To say that the game was a big success is an understatement.
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
In response to the first post of this thread, Jedi Academy was supposed to be an expansion pack
I mean, why make it just an expansion pack that will only sell for 25 bucks when they can make it a full game that sells for 45+ ????
It's all about the money these days. I don't remember that it was ever going to be an expansion pack. There was discussion around here that it might be, but that was because it was coming out a year and a half after JO. I believe that one of the developers came here and said it was never going to be an expansion. Does anyone have something that says one way or another?
Why make an expansion where you can only charge $25 and so are quite limited in what improvements you can make budget-wise, when you can make a full game with lots of great improvements because you can charge $45? I say give me tons of cool new features and improvements, and charge me extra. Those improvements are well worth the difference in price to me.
Sure, Raven and Co. want to make money off these games. So what? Is that evil? They are providing kick-ass games with lots of features that people want. They are providing a product, and if you are unhappy with it, you can choose not to buy it. Really, everyone wins. :)
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
When I heard they were making this game I was quite disappointed. It should be just an expansion. Why should it just be an expansion? There are far too many features and upgrades to fit into a simple expansion pack.
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
But them pounding a whole game out just barely a year after JO was released tells me they're just trying to cash in on the game's popularity with the Star Wars fanbase. Again, so what? They are providing what people want. What is so evil? If people didn't want all these games, no one would buy them. But people do want them, and they are buying them. It's not some big conspiracy.
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
I mean it took what 6 years between JK1 and JO? And so what if it comes out a year and a half after JO? How long do they have to wait until it is OK for them to make another full game? 6 years, because that was the time between JK and JO?
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
Especially with the sweet new engines being developed and licensed now, why do they have to push us out another quake3 based game? I can't wait till next summer, we'll finally have a REAL FPS for star wars again with the sweet assed Unreal Warfare engine. If you don't know what I'm talking about go check out the LucasArts site and click on Republic Commando. A new engine does not mean the game will be good (although this one should be). When do you think the first game using the Doom III (after Doom III, of course) engine will be out? Why do they have to wait for new engines to make a new game?
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
Makes me wish Raven had just made this an expansion and would wait till they're done QuakeIV to put out another full game. If it was an expansion, you'd be getting so much less, content wise. They haven't even announced the release date for Quake IV yet. It will be a while after that for the engine to be licensed out, the development house learns how to use it, then develop a new game. Unlike you, I am not keen on waiting 3 or 4 years between Star Wars games.
Originally posted by Prime
Sure, Raven and Co. want to make money off these games. So what? Is that evil? They are providing kick-ass games with lots of features that people want. They are providing a product, and if you are unhappy with it, you can choose not to buy it. Really, everyone wins. :)
<snip>
Again, so what? They are providing what people want. What is so evil? If people didn't want all these games, no one would buy them. But people do want them, and they are buying them. It's not some big conspiracy.
I am thinking a lot of this comes from a generation of kids growing up not paying out of their pockets for music - thinking that downloading movies and MP3's (and games) is some type of entitlement, and that copyright law, and anything that points to companies trying to make money or protect their property is inherently evil.
I also see a lot of 'Star Wars Syndrome', which is a cynical view of anything Star Wars as just a marketing draw to line someone's pockets.
I like Star Wars, and Star Wars games. But I'm not anyone's lackey. I didn't buy Gallactic Battlegrounds (and won't) as I'm not into RTS. Same for Galaxies. Or any of the flyer games. I like shooters, and FPSaber games even more :) And Raven has delivered one to satisfy, and the promise of another excellent entry with enough to truly stand on its' own.
Mike
of course people who disagree with me are wrong... that should be obvious... :D
im still baffled by all the 90%s it got...
i like this review, as it makes most of my points... (
http://www.techtv.com/extendedplay/reviews/story/0,24330,3379695,00.html)
i just got a cube on monday... almost entirely for Zelda though... but i must say that Rebel Strike does look amazing (especially the speeder chase), but the gameplay rarely lives up to the visuals in Factor 5 games...
Originally posted by toms
i just got a cube on monday... almost entirely for Zelda though... but i must say that Rebel Strike does look amazing (especially the speeder chase), but the gameplay rarely lives up to the visuals in Factor 5 games...
I've never played a Factor 5 game ... but watching the promo spots for Rebel Strike makes me want a Cube ... even though i don't have any desire for a console (I have small kids ... and I like them to have a good mix of fun and educational games - they're obsessive enough about the Harry Potter games :) )
I'm glad you found one objective, right-minded reviewer! :D
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
Excuse me, but did you pull these numbers from a**hole #5 or just make them up to support your opinion?!?! I checked out all of your 'facts' ... they were all wrong. GameZone was 96%, GameSpy was 86%, IGN was 90%, PC Gamer UK was 94%, PC Gamer US was 91%. So actually JKII *was* in the high ranks of games last year, but MoHAA was a critical darling and reviewers were still in the afterglow of NOLF2 (both excellent games, but MOHAA's shortness was a real issue for me)
Do you have a source for that quote? Or that info? I know we heard rumors aboutt an expansion, but I never saw anything official.
It is ~1.5 years between JO and JA, about the same as between JK and MotS. But JA is much more a full game, IMO. But there is truth in your point - would MotS be released as an expansion today or a full game? MOH Spearhead sold for ~$35 as a 3-hour SP expansion!
See I want all of the above. I think JA is well timed, and will be very satisfying. I also see its' MP and general press being overshadowed by HL2 et al. I am also looking forward to RepCom, but that is not a Jedi Saber game, so it will truly be just another pretty FPS. And I hope that another Jedi Knight game comes out on the new engines - Unreal Warfare is the most available, and games are just going to ship this fall with that.
A word of advice - don't play facts games with a phycisict / statistician ;)
Mike
Gamezone Review of Jedi Knight 2 - Rating 7.8
http://gamecube.gamezone.com/gzreviews/r18815.htm)
Gamespy Review of Jedi Knight 2 - Rating 76
http://www.gamespy.com/reviews/december02/jk2gcn/)
IGN Review of Jedi Knight 2 - Rating 7.2
http://cube.ign.com/articles/377/377863p3.html?fromint=1)
Who's the liar? Post proof newbie. Here's mine. So shut yer hole. And as far as my confirmation about it originally being an expansion, that came from LucasArts/Raven themselves at E3 which I attended, go download a transcript of the event if you feel the need to question my credibility again, as I've clearly proved that you're an egotistical assclown.
JK2 recieved AVERAGE marks PERIOD. E-mail PCGamer and everyone else in the industry, WHICH I'M IN!, if you don't believe me. Otherwise, continue making an idiot of yourself.
And Prime, you obviously failed to comprehend my words. IT WAS INTENDED ORIGINALLY TO BE AN EXPANSION PACK. When Raven started tinkering around with it they realized it'd be better to just make a whole new game.
And it was NOT considered for GOTY by the top award givers.
PCGamer March 2003 Game of the Year Awards Issue
GOTY - BF1942 (JK2 not nominated)
Best MP Game - BF1942 (JK2 not nominated)
Best Action Game - MOH:Allied Assault (JK2 not nominated)
Best RP Game - NWN (of course, JK2 not nominated)
Best RTS Game - WC3 (of course, ....)
Etc, etc...
JK2 wasn't even given honorable mentions in any award category. The only mention PCGamer gave it was in "the best and the worst" section.
In "The Best" PCGamer says, "Lightsaber-battling side-by-side with Luke Skywalker". In "The Worst" PCGamer says, "Slogging through JK2's first few missions -- lots of puzzles, no Force powers, no fun."
And that's it. Now if this game was as aclaimed as you all CLAIM it to be with reviews done by children then why is it the #1 Selling Gaming Magazine only mentions it in passing on their best/worst section of their awards issue? This magazine is regarded as THE voice of reason and knowledge in the gaming world.
The fact is this. The game had great potential, but the patches and the bitching and whining from fanboys ruined it. Jedi Academy was supposed to be an expansion but Raven decided to make it a full game after tinkering around with the initial concept design, don't believe me, e-mail ken hoekstra. And finally, the comments tossed my way after my first post causing hostilities are the reason this community is crap alongside the fanboy rpg nerds that would rather sit in a server (litterally) than play the game the way it was intended.
Ok maybe the reviews it got were in fact questionable at best. So what? Did you have fun playing it? Hell i think it was the single greatest game i ever played. Now if they remade the original JK and mots with the same play mechanics that would be even more awesome. And with the added editing tools, that makes this game worth more than the mere 50 bucks we put down for it, because then we can build our own levels and let our imaginations and visions of what star wars can look like. Ok the mp does suck but still, mp is to me, just an add on in itself. SP is what these guys should be focusing on, mp is secondary. Would i like a good mp? yeah but it is not essential. but hopefully raven has heard everyone's complaining and actually listens. In fact they are in here all the time so it's pretty much a given. I just can't wait until this game arrives on the shelves.
Let's try to keep this discussion civil, shall we?
Mr. Joshua...you're right that the GameCube version of the game received those scores. But Mike was talking about the PC version of the game, which scored considerably higher.
So you are both right with your facts and figures...but you are talking about different platforms.
Anyway, I don't care if JO scored 2%...this forum is for discussing Jedi Academy, so please bear that in mind when posting. Thanks. :cool:
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
Gamezone Reviewgamecube.attended, go download a transcript of the event if you feel the need to question my credibility again, as I've clearly proved that you're an egotistical assclown.
No ... we've proven that we are operating in a different context. I'm operating in an assumed PC environment. This is the preferred FPS environment for gamers, XBox coming distant second. GameCube is about as conducive for FPS as the PC is for mowing your lawn ;) (this means I'm making a joke). I never even looked at GC reviews.
JK2 recieved AVERAGE marks PERIOD. E-mail PCGamer and everyone else in the industry, WHICH I'M IN!, if you don't believe me. Otherwise, continue making an idiot of yourself.
Here's my link:
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/516547.asp)
As you see ... JK2 got top scores. Your assertion, in the context of the preferred platform, is not correct.
However, that is immaterial. You don't like JKII. You probably won't like JA. That is your opinion, and your money to choose. My money will be heading to LEC & Raven, and I'm sure I'll tthink it was well spent. And isn't that the point?
Sorry to be abusive - I was out of line.
Mike
Threads like these remind me why I don't dedicate my life to computer games anymore.
With the exception of a lone programmer or a relatively small group without a publisher, computer games:
May include work done by artists but they certainly aren't art. Art to me is a labor of love.
They can't be labors of love because while development may involve hard work doing something they love, labors of love are completed to the absolute satisfaction of the crafter. This can't apply to a business with a bottom line always trying not only to meet it but to go as high above it as possible. It can't apply to an industry whose status quo is the release of something unfinished or otherwise broken because, admittingly, consumers have by and large tolerated it.
Some artists are never satisfied, how would anything get finished, graphics wouldn't advance fast enough... yep, things my way would certainly change the.... "industry."
So long as one accepts games like JO and now JA as products for the business of mass consumption, I suppose it is okay to be satisfied by a SW FPs that is merely "good."
Originally posted by Sargasso
With the exception of a lone programmer or a relatively small group without a publisher, computer games:
May include work done by artists but they certainly aren't art. Art to me is a labor of love.
Computer games have never been works of art or labors of love, except in rare cases of one or two programmers working for themselves with no intention of selling the game.
Have you read about id? Or the development of Dark Forces? Or of just about any game? They are not pretty.
The gaming industry is an industry like any other. Decisions are made on a business level. I think it is better than the music industry, but that is because it caters to a group that likes (in the FPS case) to run around shooting things ... hey, I like to do that :) (as opposed to the latest derivative pop tripe the 'music' biz tries to foist on me)
Making games is about fun. About capturing your imagination and entertaining. So long as a game does that, it is OK.
I think you can see the love and respect for the SW universe when you read stuff from Mike or Kenn from Raven. I felt it in the game, obviously you did not.
But that is what itt is about - capturing the imagination. They have mine, but seemingly not yours.
Mike
Correct.
Products bound by the shackles of marketing will never be able to match my imagination.
But wait...
Decisions are made on a business level.
Making games is about fun.
Which one is it?
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
And Prime, you obviously failed to comprehend my words. IT WAS INTENDED ORIGINALLY TO BE AN EXPANSION PACK. When Raven started tinkering around with it they realized it'd be better to just make a whole new game. And I stated that I had heard the opposite, but I also said I was unsure and was hoping that someone could provide some concrete information. You didn't provide this information in your first post, so I wasn't sure if this was really the truth. I "comprehended" your post just fine. It doesn't mean that I will automatically take it at face value. Nor does it mean that I automatically think you were lying.
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
And it was NOT considered for GOTY by the top award givers.
PCGamer March 2003 Game of the Year Awards Issue
GOTY - BF1942 (JK2 not nominated)
Best MP Game - BF1942 (JK2 not nominated)
Best Action Game - MOH:Allied Assault (JK2 not nominated)
Best RP Game - NWN (of course, JK2 not nominated)
Best RTS Game - WC3 (of course, ....)
Etc, etc...
JK2 wasn't even given honorable mentions in any award category. The only mention PCGamer gave it was in "the best and the worst" section. Sorry. I didn't realize that there was a list of who was qualified to give out awards. Is PCGamer the only "voice of reason"? Or is there anyone else that isn't just making stuff up? Who exactly decides what awards are valid?
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
And that's it. Now if this game was as aclaimed as you all CLAIM it to be with reviews done by children... LOL. Well, here are the PC reviews from the same sites that you quoted from earlier, so I will assume that you don't think that they are run by children.
GameZone review (
http://www.gamezone.com/gzreviews/r18815.htm)
Overall: 9.6
I don't think I have ever given such a high score before...Raven and Lucasarts have created a superior product that has to be one of the best ever...
GameZone review (
http://www.gamespy.com/reviews/april02/jedioutcast/index.shtm)
Overall: 86
It starts slow, but the lightsaber combat and Force powers make Jedi Outcast one of the better action games you'll play this year.
GameZone review (
http://pc.ign.com/articles/356/356503p2.html)
Overall: 9.0
Not only is this one of the greatest Star Wars games I've ever played, it's one of the best action games period. Get it, Play it, Love it.
There's my proof. Posted by this newbie. I won't tell you to shut yer hole :)
Assuming that these guys aren't children, you can see that I wasn't just blowing smoke when I said that Jedi Outcast was very well received in many circles. I know these reviews aren't for the GameCube, but hopefully you won't disregard them outright.
Because Raven has obviously satisfied most people's demands with JO, I suspect that we can be confident that Jedi Academy will meet our expectations as well. At least for the PC, which is what I use for FPS anyway.
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
And finally, the comments tossed my way after my first post causing hostilities are the reason this community is crap alongside the fanboy rpg nerds that would rather sit in a server (litterally) than play the game the way it was intended. Fair enough. I agree that RPGing has destroyed much of MP. Sorry for the harsh response...
Originally posted by Sargasso
Products bound by the shackles of marketing will never be able to match my imagination.
I am wondering why you would frequent any game based site when it would them be impossible for any game ever released (at least in my gaming-lifespan of >20 years) to have matched your imagination.
Whether I am easily amused, or lacking in imagination,I don't know, but I've found many, many games that were made by companies with business groups, and sales and marketing divisions, that I actually really liked.
... and I've played many games made by a single person with a passion and devotion to 'crafting his/her art' that turned out to be pure crap.
Which one is it?
What a poorly worded phrase I used! "Making games is about fun." What I *meant* was that since the earliest days, games have been about fun and escape, with an occasional sideline into intellectual stimulation. Computer games are no different - they are made to be enjoyable for the players - enjoyable enough that the players will recommend them to others, and buy future games. Or, in the case of the singular programmer, they are made because that programmer thinks it will be fun/cool.
Mike
Originally posted by Sargasso
Correct.
Products bound by the shackles of marketing will never be able to match my imagination.
But wait...
[Decisions are made on a business level.]
[Making games is about fun.]
Which one is it? It doesn't have to be one or the other. Remember, employees who work for big companies are people too. They can be just as driven and enjoy their work just as much as the lonely independant game programmer. Just because business decisions have to be made does not mean that the developers don't love making these games and get satisfaction when they hear that players have fun playing them. In general, developing a quality product that provides what the user wants is good for business. Because of this, big companies want to hire people that are passionate about work, not just looking for a big paycheck. :)
Originally posted by Prime
It doesn't have to be one or the other. Remember, employees who work for big companies are people too. They can be just as driven and enjoy their work just as much as the lonely independant game programmer. Just because business decisions have to be made does not mean that the developers don't love making these games and get satisfaction when they hear that players have fun playing them. In general, developing a quality product that provides what the user wants is good for business. Because of this, big companies want to hire people that are passionate about work, not just looking for a big paycheck. :)
You are very correct - I worded my phrase poorly.
I can see the passion in many of the developers interviews and posts on various forums. I mentioned Kenn and Mike - they are trying so hard to make these games really enjoyable and challenging.
Mike
Go to any computer store and look for Game of the Year editions of games, EVERY one EVER sold with GOTY on the box was voted GOTY by PCGamer. PCGamer IS the leader in the industry. There's no two ways about it. They've been here the longest. They recieve the most readership. They have the most respect from both gamers and game creators. Gamespy isn't even close to PCGamer in content or credability, niether is IGN.
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
Go to any computer store and look for Game of the Year editions of games, EVERY one EVER sold with GOTY on the box was voted GOTY by PCGamer. PCGamer IS the leader in the industry. There's no two ways about it. They've been here the longest. They recieve the most readership. They have the most respect from both gamers and game creators. Gamespy isn't even close to PCGamer in content or credability, niether is IGN.
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with it. Everyone has their favourite magazine or web site for game reviews, and personally I've found some problems with PC Gamer in the past. For example, they reviewed Jedi Outcast before the game had even gone gold, which to my mind indicates the product was not 100% finished when they reviewed it. In addition to that, they have also got some game specifications wrong in the past, applauding some features that may fail to appear in the final product.
Anyway, I never, ever, rely on one magazine or website to make a personal judgement about a game.
And as I said in my previous post...please keep on topic when posting in this thread. No one can say whether JA will be GOTY, or be a smash, or be mediocre, until the game is finished, and everyone has had a chance to play it and form objective opinions. Anyone who slates the game at this point is forming an opinion based partly on JO (if they didn't like that game), and their fear that the new game will fail to live up to their expectations, in my view.
And if PC Gamer release a review for the game in the issue of the same month the game is released, I'll be sure to ignore it completely, because I'll know they haven't played a 100% complete product. After all, they write these magazines about 2 months in advance...
Originally posted by StormHammer
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with it. Everyone has their favourite magazine or web site for game reviews, and personally I've found some problems with PC Gamer in the past. For example, they reviewed Jedi Outcast before the game had even gone gold, which to my mind indicates the product was not 100% finished when they reviewed it. In addition to that, they have also got some game specifications wrong in the past, applauding some features that may fail to appear in the final product.
Anyway, I never, ever, rely on one magazine or website to make a personal judgement about a game.
And as I said in my previous post...please keep on topic when posting in this thread. No one can say whether JA will be GOTY, or be a smash, or be mediocre, until the game is finished, and everyone has had a chance to play it and form objective opinions. Anyone who slates the game at this point is forming an opinion based partly on JO (if they didn't like that game), and their fear that the new game will fail to live up to their expectations, in my view.
And if PC Gamer release a review for the game in the issue of the same month the game is released, I'll be sure to ignore it completely, because I'll know they haven't played a 100% complete product. After all, they write these magazines about 2 months in advance...
By that logic not one game reviewer played the final version because it took Raven 6 months to finish the game once it'd been released. And you're mixing up REview with PREview, which PCGamer does often, I'd like to know what specifications they got wrong, seeing as I've gotten the magazine for 7 years and not once found anything wrong with any of their specifications. And over 11 million readers worldwide says they're the best. End of story. No other publication for PC games has that kind of readership.
I think this game is gonna be awesome, you can make more choices, you can make your own character (very cool) and you can use a single, dual blade, or 2 lightsabers without needing a mod. I think this game will be better then jedi outcast in every way
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
Go to any computer store and look for Game of the Year editions of games, EVERY one EVER sold with GOTY on the box was voted GOTY by PCGamer. PCGamer IS the leader in the industry. There's no two ways about it. They've been here the longest. They recieve the most readership. They have the most respect from both gamers and game creators. Gamespy isn't even close to PCGamer in content or credability, niether is IGN. They may (or may not) be the best, but they aren't the only one. Their reviewers will have biases and preferences just like everyone else (which is fine). That's why I usually have a look at a bunch of different sources. The particular reviewer may not be looking for the same things I am out of a game. But reading a bunch of reviews I can get a pretty good idea about what is good and bad. If you want to rely on one point of view, that fine. Just don't expect me to fall in line about a game just because PCGamer says so. :)
Originally posted by Mr.Joshua
By that logic not one game reviewer played the final version because it took Raven 6 months to finish the game once it'd been released.
Not at all. That is your opinion. I refer to the game prior to any patches.
And you're mixing up REview with PREview, which PCGamer does often
Excuse me, but I know the difference between a REview and a PREview. I've been reading PC and games magazines since the late 80's (and my early 20's). :rolleyes: There was actually a thread about the PC Gamer REview in the Valley around the time of JO's release, where one of the developers contributed to the thread and pointed out some of the mistakes in the PC Gamer (UK edition) article. I'm too tired to search for it at the moment, or to dig out that particular issue of PC Gamer.
And over 11 million readers worldwide says they're the best. End of story. No other publication for PC games has that kind of readership.
A great many more people once thought the world was flat. That didn't mean they were right. :rolleyes:
And before you continue in this particular vein...if your next post in this thread doesn't mention JA, I'll delete it. This thread is not a discussion about PC Gamer magazine...but about whether JA deserves to be an expansion or full-blown sequel to JO.
To be honest I'm glad this game isn't going to be an expansion for one it makes perfect sence to be one, due to the fact that it would be far too much of an expansion pack, making it a new game was also good busuiness (I mean Expansion packs are about Ј15-Ј20, however now they can jack up the price to Ј35)
I'm also glad it uses the Q3 engine aswell, I mean just think of all the multiplayer restrictions the new engines have, I don't think and due to the fact it is still in early develpment stage (I mean experience wise I know its out), they would be able to give us the degree of freedom we had with the saber in JO, however the Q3 engine can.
C'mon guys, this is getting pathetic. No not Prime or Stormhammer, but the ppl who think the PCGamer is holy. What IF the PCGamer is holy in the US? What about the other billions of ppl on earth?? The ppl in Europe who are maybe even more crazy about FPSes than the ppl in the US! In the US, the Sims allways have at leats 2 titles in the top10, here it's allmost all FPS.
In my country, the PCZone is the biggest, together with Power Unlimited (Dutch language only magazine). And excuse me, but the reviews pointed out earlier were of the GameCube version and as you might now, console ports can suck big time (not allways).
And then the GOTY thing; what's so important about that? Does the game HAVE to be GOTY in order to be a big hit? So please stop enforcing your opinion on other ppl, PCGamer isn't holy, accept it.
For a bit I thought this 'game ranking' thing was getting way off topic, but I thought some more and now think it isn't - but we should all just let it go and try to push forward.
The initial question (or topic) was whether or not the game would be a 'hit'. That has morphed somewhat into whether or not the game will be any good. I think that is a better topic to discuss, as there are many 'hits' that are poor games (Enter the Matrix) and many good games that aren't big sellers (NOLF2 has been at 'bargain' prices for a while, and it was a top 2002 game, only out ~ 7 months).
So will it be Good? Just OK? Great? Pure Crap? Best Ever? We don't know. But to have an intelligent discussion, we need to develop a context and a shared understanding of what a 'good' Jedi Academy would look like. That is where we ran into problems, because you cannot possibly develop that context without a shared understanding (though not necessarily a shared opinion) of Jedi Outcast.
And that is where we really had problems.
Perhaps we can push past that so we can discuss what would make Jedi Academy a good game for [SP] and [MP]. Let's see if we can ...
To do that I would suggest that we allow ourselves to fall into two camps, which I'll label [JO+] and [JO-].
Although the basic meaning should be obvious, I would clarify to say that the [JO-] means that Jedi Outcast is a bad starting point for Jedi Academy, as Jedi Outcast poisoned the Jedi Knight well, so to speak. It means that Jedi Academy should use the fundamental sensibilities of the Jedi Knight game, coupled (unavoidably) with the Q3TA engine and all of Raven's technology, to make the best possible game.
[JO+] is perhaps as obvious as it seems - take Jedi Outcast as an excellent starting point, and improve and extend it.
Sound good? Worth a try?
Mike
sorry to take it back off topic, but i wanted to mention that last months edition of EDGE (the one with the half life 2 cover) had a really cool artical on how games are reviewed... they got a number of reviewer from different mags to comment, then got them all to review the same game...
It was pretty interesting...most game reviewers don't get more than a day or two, some only get hours... so they tend to play it for a bit, then whack on the cheats to storm through it and confirm that the rest of the games matches those initial impressions. Of course, some games get more time than others...
I eventually had to stop getting pc gamer uk as they started getting really bad. Generally the inside reviews were ok, but the BIG GAMES, thoe ones that got the FRONT COVER EXCLUSIVES seemed to always be reviewed really positively... as if it was the only way they get the exclusives. Even the really BAD games got above average reviews if they were featured on the front cover.
Anyone in the UK, id really recommend EDGE... especially that article. otherwise i tend to use gamerankings.com, as one thing i have discovered is that reviewers can have entirely opposite views on a game (or film) so i no longer trust just one...
JO-
Originally posted by toms
sorry to take it back off topic
Maybe that is a nice closer ... anyway it was interesting. I use Gamerankings as well - it is amazing how (a) two reviewers can say the same things but give widely different scores and (b) how reviewers can seem to have polar opinions yet almost identical scores. But as we all know, especially in the case of *first person* games, there is only one reviewer that really matters ...
Back to topic [JO+].
- I'd like to feel in JA like I did facing Shadowtroopers for the first time. I was already to the point of taking out Reborn pretty quickly and that I was something ... then I got quickly overwhelmed and killed. When I reloaded I approached things very differently ... I want to feel that way often in JA.
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
Back to topic [JO+].
- I'd like to feel in JA like I did facing Shadowtroopers for the first time. I was already to the point of taking out Reborn pretty quickly and that I was something ... then I got quickly overwhelmed and killed. When I reloaded I approached things very differently ... I want to feel that way often in JA.
Mike
Yeah exactly, I really liked the setting were you fought those shadowtroopers too, too bad I played it on easy the first time, but the one shadowtrooper there was pretty hard to beat at the time :) I also liked the Reborn fights BTW, some also had great settings, like the two hiding behind the pillars(sp?) on some sort of square in bespin.
To actually speak to the stated topic of this thread, I too don't think we're going to see drastic changes in Raven's version of Jedi Knight gameplay. However, the one thing that I am very much looking forward to is creating a multiplayer character skin, in-game, that is to some degree unique-ish.
In my opinion, Jedi Outcast's multiplayer skins were very lacking, and that's being generous. Now we'll have the chance to create a great number of skins, presuming that this part works out as advertised, and that could be nearly as fun as actuallly playing the game.
My real hope for the Jedi Knight franchise lies to the future, when some other developer is given the opportunity to bring Jedi Knight alive with the Unreal engine. And yet, it may never come to pass. But, if it did, might I say: Mine eyes are made the fools o’th’other senses...
In my opinion, Jedi Outcast's multiplayer skins were very lacking, and that's being generous.Pfft. :D I always find it amazing that people care so much about how many skins they have to choose from in a game, especially considering the two facts: One, skins should have no effect on gameplay, other than the obvious advantage of dark coloured skins in a strategic sense, and two, most people end up using some sort of downloaded skin to replace one of the default skins anyway.
The idea that skins are in any way important is silly. I force all player models to be the same anyway. It's the most purely cosmetic thing I can imagine. Without substance.
Now we'll have the chance to create a great number of skins, presuming that this part works out as advertised, and that could be nearly as fun as actuallly playing the game.Ahem. If I want to play "dress up" there are better ways to do it, frankly. Gameplay is the core of the game, and that's all I care about. ;)
Originally posted by Vagabond
My real hope for the Jedi Knight franchise lies to the future, when some other developer is given the opportunity to bring Jedi Knight alive with the Unreal engine. And yet, it may never come to pass. But, if it did, might I say: Mine eyes are made the fools o’th’other senses...
Well, you never know, Vag, Lucasarts might actually entertain taking the series back in-house, considering they are working on making Republic Commando using the Unreal engine. I assume this is the case, because the announcement didn't mention another developer working on it. Once that team is up to speed with the tech, I don't see any reason why they couldn't look seriously at then developing another Jedi Knight title. I'm assuming that Lucasarts must have learned a lot from Raven in terms of getting the right kind of combat mechanics implemented.
Anyway, I don't see a reason why JA should not be very successful, with it's wider range of options and choices. While the 'separate level per mission' design might not work for all future titles, it certainly seems to be the right choice for this particular game. A lot depends on how the story arc is interwoven into each level. Raven/Lucasarts have made a smart move by mixing up and redefining the style of play for JA, because I'm sure another strictly linear SP game with limited choices would not be received as well as this one might be.
In terms of MP, I'm happy with the choices they're making in that department too. I have to admit I only ever tried Holocron and Jedi Master a couple of times, and they didn't really hold my interest as much as the other modes. The Seige mode, along with the new elements and features they're bringing to MP, like vehicles, could really engage the community a lot more and provide a great deal more scope for interesting mod ideas.
The thing that is missing from MP that could have been included is an RPG mode to keep RPers happy, and out of the FFA, TFFA servers. If it is something that part of the gaming community wants (and which has created problems for others in the community), then I think it should be considered. I understand why the RPers are using Outcast, in a way...because they don't have to pay a monthly fee like they would for SWG...and [b]Knights[/i] will be SP only so an alternative RPing opportunity for SW has been lost. At least give the RPing community the mechanics to be able to develop their own mods to suit their needs. That is one of the main problems I see that could plague JA.
As far as the future goes, I tend to agree that any further Jedi Knight games that might be considered after JA should really be developed on a more up-to-date engine, either Unreal, or perhaps HL2's Source engine, which we know will have a considerable modding community that is well-supported.