I think the real question in terms of "will it be a success/hit or not" is how you define success/hit.

Will the game be a financial hit? Probably. Given that it comes from an excellent pedigree, and will expand upon the previous games, I think it can't help but sell well.

Will it be a ratings hit? Who knows. I think in a lot of cases it will be as long as it doesn't suck. I tend to be pretty wary of review sites and will usually check three or four sites for a review of a game before buying it. As far as PC Gamer goes, I stopped reading them and taking them seriously after they gave Star Control 3 something in the 90s. That game was crap and destroyed, rather than built on, its predecessor. If 11 million jillion kazillion people disagree with me, fine. They're welcome to their opinion.

When taking advice from a review place, I find the following is a good rule of thumb: patronize review sources that tend to match your own opinions. If you find that Gamespot.com tends to be pretty well in line with what you like, great. Stick with 'em. If PC Gamer's opinions tend to reflect your taste, more power to ya. If you respond with "Preach on, brother!" when AVault.com publishes a review, fantabulous. But when you find that a review source stops matching up with your tastes, it's time to move on. Does that mean that they suck? No. But it does mean that for YOU, at least, they're unreliable. No more, no less.

Now, as for whether this game will be a gameplay success, that will depend on the reaction of the fans here and on other sites. As would be imagined, there's a pretty good built-in community for Star Wars FPS games. (big surprise there...) To me, how that community reacts, and I mean a good 3-4 months AFTER the game has been released and the "new car smell" wears off, will be the real litmus test.

Take a look at people's reaction to JO when it first came out. Glowing reviews all around. Then after a while, people started noticing flaws. Lots of jumping puzzles in SP, lousy ending to SP, sabre problems and force problems in MP, etc. Then folks started complaining. To me, that's the point where I start really paying attention, if I'm going to bother to wait for reviews. I'm more interested in the negative points that people bring out than the gushing "Oh sweet! I get a lightsabre AGAIN!!" style reviews. Put simply, I expect a certain level of competence in my Star Wars games, so the fact that it has good aspects doesn't impress me (it PLEASES me when I play, but it doesn't really impress me).

What will impress me is if the criticisms are the typical kind of minute stuff that Star Wars fans are famous for. "Dude, the Essential Guide to Whatever says that the chemical needler rifle fires ACID shards, NOT poision shards." "Kel Dor jedi ALWAYS use yellow bladed sabres. I can't BELIEVE that raven botched this and gave the guy a green one..." "Kyle's voice is SO annoying, even though he's only in 5% of the game." That kind of stuff. If the worst you can do is nitpick at insignificant stuff, at THAT point, I will qualify the game a major success.

Now, of course, since Raven probably won't release a public beta or demo, there will likely be more significant complaints about balance issues, collision detection, gameplay, etc. Hopefully, these will be minor issues and the community can learn to adapt. Hopefully most of what comes straight out of the box will be well designed to suit the tastes of a wide variety (please PLEASE let the different game modes operate differently in terms of force powers, player abilities, weapons, etc., as befits the particular mode). And hopefully, we won't need major fundamentally game altering patches that will divide the community.

For my part, I'm maintaining a guardedly optimistic view of things. I expect that, as usual, Raven will produce a kickass single player experience. I've yet to play a game by them where the single player sucked or was even mediocre. I loved JO's single player gameplay, even with the jumping crap. Admittedly, the end was weak, but in terms of gameplay, the game rocked.

MP was clearly a different story, but a large part of that is due to my dislike of DM style gaming (which was pretty much all you had in this game -- CTF was never really that much fun for me due to the maps we were given and a shortage of fan maps). I'm expecting that JA's MP will be a step forward, if only because it will (hopefully) include new game modes. Yes, I know Raven has confirmed the new modes, but pre-release promises can be like campaign promises. Sometimes they come true, sometimes they don't. I'm more wary about the balance issues, and suspect that, for the kind of experience I'm hoping for, DM will again leave much to be desired. The prediliction for putting in cool LOOKING moves as opposed to making the normal moves more useful and fun (especially at the expense of good balance -- IE: no need to spam them) worries me. But hey, that's what mods are for. Hopefully, THIS time around, the devs will release an SDK early on, or the old SDK will work with the new game. We shall see.

So, will the game be a success? For me, probably yes, on the whole. As JO was a success on the whole (when you take into account the positive aspects of MP and the SP experience as a whole), this game will hopefully follow in its footsteps, and avoid the places where the previous game tripped and got mud on its face.

I completely agree with you Solo4114. Power to you :thumbsup:

Yes indeed, great post, agree on almost everything :) I do hope Raven has learned not to nerf too much, but fix the exploits. I'm sure they won't make the same mistakes again... If they do, it would be kinda unprofessional right? :)

Nerf it, boost it, I don't care, just get it right the first time. And don't use the same power structure for ALL game modes. One size does NOT fit all. Duelers don't play like FFA-ers, who play differently from CTF-ers, etc. You can't just have a uniform modus operandi for all the weapons, powers, etc. and keep the game fun in ALL of those modes.

Look at what happened with 1.04. I'd argue that 1.04 was about the best patch out there for duelers. You had nice long battles, few instant kills, and plenty of blocking. However, that's death to CTF and FFA. So, I'm hoping Raven learned from the last goaround that a single hierarchy of weapons just will not work for all game modes. If they can figure that out, I think there's a good likelihood that most people will be happy and remain happy with the MP portion of the game. This will also allow any future patches to cater to the particular community in question.

IE: if the duelers start complaining that drain is too powerful or that sense is too weak, or that the double-bladed special spin and kick move is too strong, they can change it FOR THE DUELERS and leave everyone else alone. This will help prevent one segment of the game's community from advocating for changes for EVERYONE when those changes don't necessarily benefit everyone. Plus, if you get duelers who start playing FFA and complaining about that stuff (or vice versa), you can just say, "We hear ya, but that's not how this part of the game works. If that's more your cup of tea, why not play (FFA/CTF/Duel/Team Objectives/etc.)?"

Once again ladies and gentlemen, we have a great, quality post by Solo4114.

I just wish that they might add some emotes for the RPers so that we can stay away from the FFAers and the CTFers. Duelers don't bother us. :D (Note that that was a wish that has a 1/100 chance of getting in the game)

I wish there were no emotes, no RPG features whatsoever. Not even the possibility to look down while crouching, 'cause that makes it look like you're bowing.

Duelers and rpg-people don't bother anyone. The problem is just that 99% of these people don't understand that they can't pull that crap on other servers, especially FFA's. They believe guns are dishonourable yet come to all weapons servers walking around saber down trying to challenge others to duels.

I'm almost hoping that JA will assign a random number for players instead of a name, offer only one skin, one saber, allow no in-game chatting...nothing that anyone could even try to RPG on. :mad:

Originally posted by legameboy
Once again ladies and gentlemen, we have a great, quality post by Solo4114.

I just wish that they might add some emotes for the RPers so that we can stay away from the FFAers and the CTFers. Duelers don't bother us. :D (Note that that was a wish that has a 1/100 chance of getting in the game)

No. No freaking emotes. If you want emotes code a mod specifically for your one little server and be sure to emblazzen "THIS IS AN RPG NEWBIE SERVER" on the MOTD.

I would just like to point out that there were a lot of very good games last year. Most mag's mentioned that JO would have gotten closer on their GOTY lists if Kyle got his saber earlier. The early gun fights just weren't that exciting. I would also point out that Raven didn't do this because they were worried about how likeable the saber system they developed would be [SP]. So the core of the game was considered very successful - it just took too long to get to it.

I doubt the game will garner a great deal of attention. It's in a kind of limbo between an expansion and a whole new game. There is a lot more content, but I don't think there are going to be significant changes. Also it's going up against some stiff competition. For people who liked JO - they will probably love JA [SP]. If you didn't like JO (at least after the saber combat started), you probably aren't going to be won over. Frankly I'd pay a monthly subscription to get a new set of missions every month - but maybe that's just me.

As far as MP - I don't play it that much - but just from a cursory glance at this board I'm sure there will be a lot of complaining regardless. Frankly - if I worked for Raven - and I looked at all the conflicting "suggestions" and "wishes" and "demands" and "threats" I would probably never visit these forums again. There are some sane, reasoned arguments, but there also a lot of whining infants beating their little paws on the ground and screaming at the heavens.

I don't mind the game having RPG elements or emotes and such. I probably won't really use 'em, since I find it pretty hard to have a fun RPG experience in what amounts to essentially an arena where the only thing you can really do is fight. The game's just not designed for much else. That said, if you want to play that way, knock yourself out.

But, and I think most REASONABLE RPers would agree with this, it's a REALLY bad idea to hop onto a server that isn't clearly listed as an RP server and start ordering people around or saying "Dude! You didn't bow before the match!!" and such. If RPers what to RP, more power to 'em. Just do it on an RP server. By the same token, if a server has a greeting or is listed as an RP server, FFA (and CTF and even some Duelers) shouldn't join up and start fragging at will. Basically, just follow the format of the server you're on. That's just good manners really.

Like I said, I want to stay away from the FFAers sometimes (but it's hard, because whenever I go to an RPG server, there is half FFAers and half RPGers, and then it's a catastrophy(sp?).) Anyway, if there isn't emotes it's fine, I'm sure someone will make a emote mod. Hehe:D'

PS: Most of us don't play on the arena maps, people make their own little RPGing maps.

Originally posted by Reprehence
Frankly - if I worked for Raven - and I looked at all the conflicting "suggestions" and "wishes" and "demands" and "threats" I would probably never visit these forums again. There are some sane, reasoned arguments, but there also a lot of whining infants beating their little paws on the ground and screaming at the heavens. Indeed. I suspect that they realize that the whining on these boards is the minority and that the great reviews and sales are a good indication of what people really thought of the game. Most reasonable people realize that there are going to be problems with any game. I just hope Raven knows that there are many players that are very happy with the way JO turned out, and that they are eagerly awaiting JA.

Originally posted by Prime
Indeed. I suspect that they realize that the whining on these boards is the minority and that the great reviews and sales are a good indication of what people really thought of the game. Most reasonable people realize that there are going to be problems with any game. I just hope Raven knows that there are many players that are very happy with the way JO turned out, and that they are eagerly awaiting JA.

Wait - didn't we already establish that this game didn't get good reviews?!?

... oops ... ;)

I downloaded the UT2003 demo again and went running around kicking butt for a while last Friday, and thought about how 'easy' they have it compared to Raven, who have to:
- Balance the guns(like any FFA)
- Develop good spawn sites (ditto)
- Build maps that are interesting for all gun types (ditto)
- Build maps that suit a combo of guns/sabers
- Balance saber against saber for different styles
- Balance special moves for each style
- Balance sabers against guns
- Balance Force Powers against each other (light/light)
- Balance Force Powers against each other (light/dark)
- Balance Force Powers against sabers styles & moves
- Balance Force Powers against guns
and all the while
- Make it feel 'starwars-y'
- Make players feel like their favorite jedi
- Make it feel like the movies.

Now think about the challenge of making a 'Siege' mode that incorporates all of these things into a class-based objective system.

Mike

thought about how 'easy' they have it compared to Raven.

Exactly - let's face it - the only thing new coming along in FPS's is graphics. Sure it's prettier, but it's the same game as Doom - it's all about the guns (and hopefully soon also about the environment).

When you throw sabers and force powers into the mix - well - it just compounds the problems geometrically. I would also point out that in general JO got better reviews than the latest Unreal [sp].

Admittedly, Raven has a tough job for balancing things, but bear in mind that not all modes have to be balanced equally (and probably shouldn't).

In FFA, sabres should NOT be balanced so as to be able to beat all guns all the time, or at least do just as well as guns all the time. The sabre in FFA is just another tool. It makes a great shield, and an awesome closecombat weapon. Think of it as the shield from UT2K3 plus a chainsaw or something. At least, THAT's how it should be balanced to me. But, stances aren't as important really. Just the lethality of the weapon itself. Ideally, you'll haul ass away from a sabre wielder, and get to a range where you can safely pelt the guy with explosives and such.

In Duels, sabre v. sabre combat is more important, so the stances are more critical. Fine-tuning the balance between stances, making each stance a viable competitor against the other stances, making sure that the special moves aren't overpowered without disadvantages, etc. Those are the real concerns of duels.

CTF has similar goals to FFA, but things like ammo consumption of guns can be different.

The force balance issue is, I think, where things get REALLY tricky. First, you have to make sure that the force powers are, in and of themselves, well balanced. By this, I mean not so bloody powerful that they turn you into a walking god mid-game, but not so pitifully weak that they serve no purpose. You have to make them inherently useful and interesting too (IE: I never found Force Seeing or Mind Trick to be that useful, really). THEN, you have to make sure that the individual powers "fit" within the established Star Wars universe. You can't just make up something like, uh...Force...um....Freezing where you spray icy death from your fingertips...or something. THEN, you have to make sure that the powers fit in terms of Light vs. Dark (IE: no super destructo-blasts for light side, no "protect your buddies" powers for dark). Finally, you have to make sure that the two SIDES are balanced. You have to make sure that neither side can dominate, and that, at their strongest, they merely cancel each other out. ("I see we must decide this by our skills with a lightsabre...")

It's also pretty tough to have a variety of weaponry and having them remain true to the universe itself. I, among others, felt that the guns in JO were too "quake-like" or "UT-like" and not "star warsy" enough. Too many flashing balls of energy or exploding flak whatever, and not enough blasters. Honestly, I'd be delighted with a set of blasters that shoot similar looking projectiles, but have more subtle differences (IE: rate of fire, effective range, clip size, etc.) and have maybe a FEW other weapons (web guns, explosives, etc.). I'm glad the concussion rifle will be back. That gun always felt more starwarsy to me than the repeater (heavy or otherwise) and the flak gun.

Now, as far as the class-based siege mode, I think that'd pretty easy to keep balanced, specifically because you can throw much of the established gameplay styles out the window. You can be more heavy-handed in your pros and cons for weapons. IE: you can wield a Merr-Sonn, but it'll slow you down by 25%. You will, however, get 200% shields to start with, and 150% health, and will also carry a concussion rifle or something. You could, on the other hand, be an engineer type, and have lower health and shields, but be able to drop force fields and auto-turrets. Or you could play as a jedi and be able to run fast, use the force, but be limited to a lightsabre and carry no shields or use bacta/medpacks/etc. Or you could play as a medic, drop medpacks/bacta, etc., etc. There are plenty of games out there that you can follow from, and I'd recommend RTCW and BF1942 as the two best. More the former than the latter for the smaller scale games, though. You could even divide things up by having jedi with specific powers (jedi scouts, jedi assaults, jedi healers), and having soldiers with specific powers (scouts, heavyweapons, medics, etc.). And you can divide up by light vs. dark, or imperial vs. rebel/republic. There's plenty of ways to do it and good models to look to. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

the reviews the game gets will have maybe a baring on its selling (obviously good review = good advertising & vice versa)

but it has NOTHING to do with what the fans will think of it.... im actually beginning to think that mp in this new game will be absolutely tense non stop action (that it'll be good!). tho its faults will be if they incorrectly balance the force and sabers.

PC Gamer holy?? ofcoarse one must expect some US arrogance, lol (JK ;)) but remember that PC Gamer sells in just about all the other countries where US games are sold?? So PC Gamers impact can be sorta big.

winning game of the year? it'll get it if it deserves it :cool: good games seem to ;)

Yeah we had PC Gamer over here allright... It didn't sell, so it was cancelled here, now we only have the UK for sale one here... :D

I don't think Raven will be able to balance everything the first time, it indeed seems like an impossible job for me! But I don't mind patches, as long as they don't fix that ain't broken!

JA will be a great game at the start and if Raven takes time to make an almost perfect patch, while listening to the ppl who play the game, it should be OK and we'll have a kickass time, kicking eachother's ass :D

But you shouldn't have too big expectations of how the game will be everything you've allways wanted right away. Like many ppl said, it's awfully hard to balance this kind of game, since you have weapons, forcepowers AND a saber!!


And BTW,
This is post #1000 for me!! HOORAY!!!

Originally posted by HertogJan
And BTW,
This is post #1000 for me!! HOORAY!!! Congratulations HertogJan! You have joined me in the ranks of the HUGE NERDS :D

Though what does make me, Prime? :D
Sure Raven have a really hard job trying to balance it but with proper time and beta testing, they should be able to balance it fairly decently and just ignore the tads of whining. They have JO as a base for example, they know where to not go wrong this time :D
Also, i think a good thing would be 'Auto Updates'
If you have ever palyed AvP2, you'll know what i mean. It's an implemented par tof the game which checks for updates evrytime you start mp, so it can fix little bits over and over without people noticing(presuming it's a small part of the game), so really it downloads itself. I think this would be a great idea because people really don't have a choice and it can be done gradually so people don't notice. Of course, this should only be with minor things, if they have messed up badly, we should be given a lsit of nerfed things.

[computer voice]You, sir, are a (pause)....beep beep beep...beeeoop (computer crash)[/computer voice]

Originally posted by Prime
Congratulations HertogJan! You have joined me in the ranks of the HUGE NERDS :D

:p :p :p :p :)

And the auto updates thing sounds nice :D But only for really small things, you should only notice a slightly larger download time, no "updating content" screen or something... And they have to make it quick and reliable, so you won't hang when connecting, cause you needed an update :rolleyes:

Originally posted by HertogJan
:p :p :p :p :)

And the auto updates thing sounds nice :D But only for really small things, you should only notice a slightly larger download time, no "updating content" screen or something... And they have to make it quick and reliable, so you won't hang when connecting, cause you needed an update :rolleyes:

I was a very early AOL user 10 - 12 years or so ago, and I remember when they were changing so rapidly that *every* connection I had to wait for minutes for an 'updating content' message ... on my state-of-the-art 2400baud modem ;)

Sometimes when I connect to a MP server, even if I'm at work with my T3+, I have to wait minutes to get a new saber hilts from the server. Obviously I get maps from JK2Files or Massassi or JOMaps or wherever, but server required files are more of a pain ... my point is that when I choose to play online, I have a small amount of time, and want to maximize my playtime, not wait 10 minutes for new updates from LEC or the server or whatever. Any I have broadband connections at home and work ... I can't imagine 56k ...

Mike

As long as these auto-updates are an option. I don't want the game forcing me to do something I don't want, and I certainly don't want to have to wait around when I am ready to play. MS does enough of this with their own auto-updates. Give us a button that says update, but don't be sneaky.

Originally posted by Reprehence
As long as these auto-updates are an option. I don't want the game forcing me to do something I don't want, and I certainly don't want to have to wait around when I am ready to play. MS does enough of this with their own auto-updates. Give us a button that says update, but don't be sneaky.

That would be the MS way, wouldn't it? Two buttons - Update and Quit ;)

Of course, if you were on a slow line, and didn't like updating, you might run into server problems - you might want to join one, but not have all of the correct updates. That would put more on the server to compare updates and force updates to join or send you back to the main menu.

Mike

I'm a little leary about automatic updates, especially with all the mods and stuff that will be out there. Raven won't be able to test their fixes against all the custom stuff out there. It would suck if you downloaded a bunch of cool stuff and play with it for a while, and then after playing MP one day some of your stuff stopped working. At least when you go and download a patch, you know you downloaded a patch, and they is why your stuff doesn't work.

I'd rather just have a message that a new update is available...

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
Though what does make me, Prime? :DOh no! Uber-Nerd! Run!! :D

Exactly - if they had automatic updates, there should be some method for rolling back the "features" you were just forced to install.

Originally posted by Reprehence
Exactly - if they had automatic updates, there should be some method for rolling back the "features" you were just forced to install.

Wow - I agree with you, but we've just hit a level of complexity that makes me think that plain ol' patches are much preferrable.

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
Wow - I agree with you, but we've just hit a level of complexity that makes me think that plain ol' patches are much preferrable.

Mike

Don't forget these small updates would enable Raven to adjust something they did wrong in a patch. Say if they nerfed saber damage too much, it doesn't work out, then they could make that aspect like it was before the patch, without having to ask LA for permission to do it maybe :)

Originally posted by HertogJan
Don't forget these small updates would enable Raven to adjust something they did wrong in a patch. Say if they nerfed saber damage too much, it doesn't work out, then they could make that aspect like it was before the patch, without having to ask LA for permission to do it maybe :) Something tells me that LEC has the agreement worded so tightly that they would need lengthy permission discussions to get a patch out that fixed a bug whereby inserting the game CD caused the PC to burst into flames ...

Originally posted by HertogJan
Don't forget these small updates would enable Raven to adjust something they did wrong in a patch. Say if they nerfed saber damage too much, it doesn't work out, then they could make that aspect like it was before the patch, without having to ask LA for permission to do it maybe :) They would have to ask LEC regardless for legal reasons. Besides, it is the same old problem. Some people may like the nerfed lightsaber damage, and would not want it undone without their knowing.