Am I the only one who dislikes healing powers?

Remember heal in 1.02? It was a pain in the ass. (In 1.04 with level 1 heal you gain something like 5hp and lose half your force pool, though :thumbsup: :rolleyes: )

Drain in 1.04 --> a quick tap on your drain-button and you got 100hp again.

This translates into drawn out, boring fights especially if saber damage is low.

Do we really need heal? The maps have powerups littered all over! Bactas, shields, medpacks... :mad:

IMHO if you get hurt, you should stay hurt. Take out half of the powerups. Take out the dark side heal (perhaps a highest lvl drain kind of power that regenerates your hp's slightly and slowly?). Give lighties a heal that works like the heal in SP: regenerates your hp, but you need to "meditate" for a sec = making you die for certain if you use it while someone's attacking you.

This crap with *HEALHEALHEALDRAINDRAINDRAIN* in the middle of a fight is just silly. Who cares whether or not they are hit if they can get their hp's back at any time?

As for "laming", these kind of powers are great. Don't fight - simply run away and heal yourself!

Personally I dislike heal and drain.

Most lazy/sub par players simply rely on them to give them a chance to "get that lucky shot in" while being able to stay alive regardless of how crappy their defensive game is.

However when we disable them on our server people (those mentioned above) tend to simply resort to nothing but "safe attacks". As in ranged lightning and ranged pull throwing.

So you're dammed if you do/don't in a way.


Honestly I say leave them in, improve heal so it can be on par with drain and *make sure there are *plenty of ways to take a guy out in a single shot.

That means very strong sabers *and very strong force based combos.

btw I didn't mention guns because I doubt either power is an issue for a guy with a rocket launcher...


There is no reason why a game like jo/ja has to have long drawn out battles.

Actually I think in the end this has hurt the game more than anything.

People want that fast satisfying kill and have only found themselves frustrated by pounding and pounding away on a guy for 15 minutes straight with nothing to show for it.


Go spec a game of full force saber only CTF. It's utterly ridiculous how one single flag carrier can have 5 guys chasing him for 15 minutes straight in a tiny little room and no one can kill him unless someone pops off a lucky DFA and drills him.

Back in 1.02 sure heal and drain were "uber" compared to now but I personally never found either to be frustrating because of the many ways I could wipe the guy out in a single shot.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
In 1.04 with level 1 heal you gain something like 5hp and lose half your force pool, though :thumbsup: :rolleyes:

Exactly, so why nerf it even more than it already is? :rolleyes:

Drain in 1.04 --> a quick tap on your drain-button and you got 100hp again.

Exactly...it's far too powerful, and someone can continue to use drain repeatedly very quickly, so it's overpowered and unfair.

Do we really need heal? The maps have powerups littered all over! Bactas, shields, medpacks... IMHO if you get hurt, you should stay hurt. Take out half of the powerups. Take out the dark side heal (perhaps a highest lvl drain kind of power that regenerates your hp's slightly and slowly?). Give lighties a heal that works like the heal in SP: regenerates your hp, but you need to "meditate" for a sec = making you die for certain if you use it while someone's attacking you.

So now you not only want to nerf heal, but take away the powerups as well? And when you're running with about 5 hp to get that powerup to heal you, the guy pursuing you is using saberthrow, guns or whatever else at their disposal to take you out. Brilliant. :rolleyes: Forgive me while I totally disagree with your idea.

As for "laming", these kind of powers are great. Don't fight - simply run away and heal yourself!

Erm...it's harder than you make it sound to 'simply run away' if you have a determined gunner at your back.


Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed
Most lazy/sub par players simply rely on them to give them a chance to "get that lucky shot in" while being able to stay alive regardless of how crappy their defensive game is.

That may be true...but so do those with laggy connections. I rely on powerups and heal to compensate for my inability to block effectively when I'm lagging on a server. Perhaps your next recommendation would be that those with laggy connections should not bother playing the game at all...

Honestly I say leave them in, improve heal so it can be on par with drain and *make sure there are *plenty of ways to take a guy out in a single shot.

I disagree with the single shot idea, but I agree with improving and balancing the heal system.

btw I didn't mention guns because I doubt either power is an issue for a guy with a rocket launcher...

Of course it's an issue. I use guns most of the time because if I get into a drawn-out saber battle, it's the lag that kills me. At least with guns I have more of a fighting chance, but that puts me at a major disadvantage in melee combat - which is as it should be. But the same powers should be available to gunners as saberists.

People want that fast satisfying kill and have only found themselves frustrated by pounding and pounding away on a guy for 15 minutes straight with nothing to show for it.

I agree...saber battles can be very drawn-out affairs - unless you are using the 'duel' function, when most of your force power is nerfed and you can't use pickups anyway. I agree that they need to increase saber damage (as I stated in the other thread), so that saber duels can be better balanced and not last forever.

However, the problem has been that some people wanted it that way. As I see it, the damage ratios need to change for each MP game type. When Raven has produced patches for JO, the effects have been felt across the board, and it doesn't make a great deal of sense, because each game mode requires different styles of play. In FFA, saberists should be at a disadvantage for sticking to a melee weapon. In Duel...if they want drawn out saber battles, fair enough. The problem is that you can no longer apply the same set of parameters across the board, because it can unbalance other game modes. That's what happened with JO, in my opinion, and I'd like to see them apply different settings for different MP games modes in JA. That way, they can balance all weapons and powers for each particular game types, without nerfing the others.

Just IMHO...

Originally posted by StormHammer
Of course it's an issue. I use guns most of the time because if I get into a drawn-out saber battle, it's the lag that kills me. At least with guns I have more of a fighting chance, but that puts me at a major disadvantage in melee combat - which is as it should be. But the same powers should be available to gunners as saberists.


Nah I didn't mean it like that.

What I meant is say you are healing like crazy and all I have is a saber, now chances are I'm going to get annoyed at how hard it is to kill you.

Now same scenario but I now have a gun, bang rocket flies at you and you take damage and start healing. I fire another and you die.

I just meant it as in it is not as frustrating for a gunner to deal with (the heal/drain) as it is to saber players because a gunner can shoot a guy in the back as he runs to heal. A saber guys options are much more limited when they turn tail and run/heal.

And as for people wanting those damage scales lowered, yeah a lot of people did.
However as many have noted people who are generally happy with something don’t voice opinions as loudly as those who are not happy.

Add the fact that the two largest player base drop offs happened right after these patches and it’s pretty easy to see that the majority didn’t like what changes were made.

if i may put my 2 cents in, we should keep heal however, it cant be available till ur on the brink of death.

its a win-win situation really

In SP, healing level 1 forced the player to crouch, lower his sabre and meditate, while he healed. This meant it couldn't be used constantly during combat. THAT'S the way it should be in JA.

/\ You mean level 2 and 3 should be like that too, or that MP powers should mirror the equivilant in SP?

Originally posted by Spider AL
In SP, healing level 1 forced the player to crouch, lower his sabre and meditate, while he healed. This meant it couldn't be used constantly during combat. THAT'S the way it should be in JA.

In theory yes, but in practice?

Personally if it were a frantic type of match like a FFA, I would just use my energy to take out as many people as I could before I died and totally ignore my health.

To heal in that manner you would pretty much have to run off and find a secluded corner and in turn take yourself out of the battle/lose kill opportunities/points while others just went on a killing frenzy.

If it were a 1v1 type of game, I don't see anyone being able to get away and do that unless they make the JA duel maps the size of FFA maps.

But then again I do see having that heal method as having positive effects on the game.

Make it a pain to run and heal and people won't try it as often, they will only do it when the rare occasion presents itself.

I think heal should be as per the first level in JO where you crouch for a moment and gain your health...

I also am not keen on the idea of healing yourself from the point of death to full health. I would prefer to see a system whereby your health is split into 4 quarters, and if you've been hit a few times you can only heal up to the nearest quarter for each time the button has been pressed...

This would mean it would have to be used sparingly, because it is time consuming and its effects slow, this would prevent people spamming it...


That may be a slightly verbose way of putting it, but I think you get the idea.

-W

I think that heal, in its present form, should be removed from the game. In the books, etc. Jedi only healed once the danger was gone, so it doesn't make sense to heal in the middle of a fight. Drain should, I think, retain the same effect, but be weakened significantly, this would make heal/drain far less useful in a fight, but just as useful if you're hiding in a corner on an FFA map. I think heal, in a fight, should just reduce the damage you take from certain hits and boost your defence. For example, if you enable heal, and someone kicks you, you won't fall down. If someone grazes you with a blue stance swing, you would lose less health than if heal was not "on". I think that could work for fights, plus the meditation thing when you need to recharge.

Originally posted by StormHammer
That may be true...but so do those with laggy connections. I rely on powerups and heal to compensate for my inability to block effectively when I'm lagging on a server. Perhaps your next recommendation would be that those with laggy connections should not bother playing the game at all...

in that case i would say G.T.H. (figure it out for yourself :P)

course that is only about that one view

I'd be willing to give up Heal if they would bring back Blinding :)

*pokes Luc Solar*

mawahahahah

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

Personally if it were a frantic type of match like a FFA, I would just use my energy to take out as many people as I could before I died and totally ignore my health.That would be your choice. I on the other hand, would kill as many people as I could, AND if I survived, I'd heal up. Bacta's the healing to use during combat, Force Heal should be a supplement one cannot use during combat.

Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed:

Make it a pain to run and heal and people won't try it as often, they will only do it when the rare occasion presents itself.That would be the ideal. It's a powerful ability, a permanent bacta tank.

Reduce the damage taken is protect's task, as for heal, I don't mind if they put it in or take it out, I just play 3 modes, No force duel, FFA, if you are killing people like a mad, why bother to heal yourself, and CTF, but in ctf I run to enemy base and just stand there killing and trying to survive (is like a FFA, but 4/5 against you). even in that situation I don't heal myself.
After all is a game, you play to have fun, not to finish 1st or have more frags.

Exactly, so why nerf it even more than it already is?

In 1.04 heal is utterly useless. In 1.02 it was useful. Annoyingly useful. ;)

So now you not only want to nerf heal, but take away the powerups as well? And when you're running with about 5 hp to get that powerup to heal you, the guy pursuing you is using saberthrow, guns or whatever else at their disposal to take you out. Brilliant. Forgive me while I totally disagree with your idea.

Yes. That's the idea. Get hit and die. None of this "sure, I screwed up and got hit 12 times, but who cares 'cause I'll just press my little Drain-button and I'm back at 100hp again, yay!" :rolleyes:

Erm...it's harder than you make it sound to 'simply run away' if you have a determined gunner at your back.

I don't have a problem with regenerating powers in games with guns. No-one can out-run a competent gunner (jump + absorb + speed + whatever) *and* heal themselves in the process. Saber only games are the problem. If the saber isn't lethal, heal and drain should be ditched.

I rely on powerups and heal to compensate for my inability to block effectively when I'm lagging on a server. Perhaps your next recommendation would be that those with laggy connections should not bother playing the game at all...

Those with laggy connections should be at a disadvantage because, you know... they're LAGGING! :D ;)

But don't get me wrong, if other things change, regenerating powers are ok. (I voted for the light side heal, not banning them altogether.) Who cares if the opponent can heal himself if you can take him down in one shot?

What I hate is the idea of powerup-infested maps like Raven or.. ahh...you know, the other similar one where you can not kill anyone with a saber even though they're WALKING from powerup to powerup. If I land a few good hits on someone, I want him to die, not to see him take 2 steps left on a 200 shield and make me hit him 8 more times only to realize that the guy just walked across the 3 medpacks and the bacta that were right next to the huge shield which has just respawned.

Less healing powers, less powerups. This translates into more caution and people actually caring whether or not someone hits them in the face with a lightsaber. And if you die, you respawn. No biggie. :)

I personally think that if drain is weakened to the level of heal, it's probably be alright. But basically, the same as JO, less effective. Level 3 Heal brings back, what, 50 points max (if you do it twice with full force)? Drain is pretty powerful...except to lightside absorbers. :D

Originally posted by Master_Payne:

After all is a game, you play to have fun, not to finish 1st or have more frags.Tish and pish, my fun IS to finish first. My fun IS to have more frags. Nothing else is fun. :p

Originally posted by Master_Payne
After all is a game, you play to have fun, not to finish 1st or have more frags.

:rolleyes:

No wonder why we got stuck with this saber code hypocracy BS in the first place.

I think AL said it pretty clear for me.

I, for one, have more fun if I'm not whupping players far below my skill level. I like to have a pretty even match, that way the victory is much more rewarding, as I feel a slight accomplishment, as opposed to just trying to beat 10 newbs in a minute.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I, for one, have more fun if I'm not whupping players far below my skill level. I like to have a pretty even match, that way the victory is much more rewarding, as I feel a slight accomplishment, as opposed to just trying to beat 10 newbs in a minute.
I also like having a pretty even match. 10 players below my skill level wouldn't be too bad if they were all after me :D then it might become interesting.

Anyways, back to the forum topic... Heal has saved me a number of times. But, as many people already stated, heal is useless interms of power. Drain is way to powerful. If drain were equivilent to heal than I don't mind. Actually, once I think about it, taking force away from opponent and healing is better than light heal. Hmm....

In my opinion, I think heal is more neutral. If I were playing either dark/light , I would heal. Absorb, should absorb the dark force. And drain, which should take away force only.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

I, for one, have more fun if I'm not whupping players far below my skill level. I like to have a pretty even match, that way the victory is much more rewarding, as I feel a slight accomplishment, as opposed to just trying to beat 10 newbs in a minute.That's probably because you're not interested in self-improvement. I try to train hard enough so that ALL other players are (relative) newbies when measured against me. When I win a match easily against good quality opposition, that's the truly rewarding bit. That's what tells me I've gotten better. That's what tells me my training has worked.

For the light side heal I remembvered a system that will make it powerfull yet very tricky to use... anyone played Aliens vs Predator 2? All those that do play/have played it remeber the preds battery charger. For those who dont I'll explain... the predators ammo for energy weapons is a battery that powers all weapons/gear that rely on energy discharges.... most powerfull stuff drain the battery real quick. There are no energy powerups for the preds... they must use an item that recharges theyr battery to full power... the problem with it is... a pred while recharging can only walk and do a ridiculously inefective jump and he cannot attack cuz he's holding the recharger in his hands... it takes about 5 secs to recharge the battery and you glow like a xmas tree plugged into a nuclear reactor.

Ok... my point is... as sugested... heal should be a meditating force power... find somewhere to hide... and risk total sitting duck factor while the hp's are regainned. Also... the force points spent on healing should be more... something like 75% force vs full health recovery at max heal level.

Well drain is surely overpowered as well... and the dark side is hardly defensive/healer... so make the healing properties of the power less effective. Drain in fact has 2 uses... drain the foe's force points and heal the player that uses it. In my point of view... the more darksidish thing about this power is the draining part... so to keep things balanced with the aove discription of heal, drain should SLOWLY drain force points from opponent at about 1/2 rate... like you spend all your force points but only drain half the opponents force mana... while only regaining 1/4 of health points.

well... as always this is not what ou are gonna see in game... it's just my opinion on how things might become well balanced.

Out of topic but I'll just throw thins one in as well... Force lightning besides very effective is extremely annoying in my opinion... it's too effective in my opinion... I'd just make it usable against one opponent at the time at max level and you'd have to aim with the crosshairs jsut as you'd aim with a weapon... by these figures i guess damage could stay the smae or even be improved... force costs as well.

Cheers.

Originally posted by BloodRiot
Out of topic but I'll just throw thins one in as well... Force lightning besides very effective is extremely annoying in my opinion... it's too effective in my opinion... I'd just make it usable against one opponent at the time at max level and you'd have to aim with the crosshairs jsut as you'd aim with a weapon... by these figures i guess damage could stay the smae or even be improved... force costs as well.
agreed. the range for lightning is too wide... maybe if it was more like dooku's lightning.

JA is not a mod for JO. JA is not an expansion for JO. JA is an entirely new game. Therefor, many things will be different.

And remember, the trailer and screenshots aren't the final game. I don't know why people think they are, but they aren't. It's not coming out for at least another five months, they aren't even in the beta stage yet.

And removing heal powers kind of goes against everything the previous games about Jedi and books about Jedi are about, so it won't happen.

JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.That's strange. I guess you must think that Quake 2 was an expansion for Quake 1 then? :D

Stand-alone expansion? That's an oxymoron. If something stands alone, it's a game. If it requires a game in order to run, it's an expansion.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.
they don't state that it is jk3... just ja.

The problem with force powers for me was always difficulty of use in junction with the saber. I've rebound the main force powers to keys closer to "WADS", but when it came right down to it, managing a wide arsenal of force powers while sabering was only annoying because of the shotty controls.

Why is force heal a command you give? Why not just have the player always regenerate 1 hp every 30 seconds? (or some varying degree of this). If light side players want to fill up the health, they'd have to pull back, wait it out, and make sure they dont get hit. End result is much like our current heal power, except its one less force power I'll have to rebind or switch to.

I think the other powers should be molded more into the gameplay, instead of this "select your spell, O Wizard of RPG's." Force Jump, for example, is a nice force power that's gameplay drivin. Light side's Absorb.. or Dark side's Lightning are like commands you would give in a real time RPG. Only change "mana bar" to "time bar", and you got yourself a Final Fantasy spinoff.

ILR... you ARE right when you say force jump is really well implemented into gameplay.. no doubt there... I back u 100%... but i dont particulary find force keys all that complicated... I'd sugest something just a lil more practical in terms of key binding...

Well.. my ONLY key binding issue with force powers was if i wanted to change force sides... i'd need keys for all the lightside and the dark side. Well i play with the num pad for walking and i aim with mouse...i use the corner numapd keys for neutral force powers and the 6 insert to page down keys for light or dark side powers... it wouldbe way practical to bind the key to force power numbers like force power 1 through 4 or 5...

force power1= heal or drain, 2= absorb or grip and so on... that way... when you changed force side... for instance... page down(in my case) would be absorb if lightside or grip if dark side.

It only a small change that would suit me... probably other gammers that use diferent key sets dont need this at all. But going back to main issue... I dont really thing it's hard to use powers in a middle of a saber duel.

Cheers.

Drain is just ridiculous, always has been. Having one power that not only cripples your opponent's force ability but also fills up your HP is stupid. It's bad enough that Darkies have a regenerative ability at all, but it just doesn't make any sense that it's usually better than the Light one.

I really like that idea about the light siders regaining HP over time automatically. I remember in X-Men 2: Clone Wars for the Genesis, Wolverine did just that. Once his HP got below 3 (out of 10, I think) you could just stand still and the HP would come back, very slowly. It was a pain to regenerate, as it took so long, so you didn't just allow yourself to get hurt, but if you made a split second mistake, you could recover from it. That would make lots of sense in a Star Wars game, where fast pace is an issue (so you can't go into a 3 hour meditation). The amount of points you put into Heal could determine the regen rate.

Personally, I don't play full force games much, so I have a problem with the controls too. I usually just select Drain and use the force button. Even if my opponent isn't hurt, drain still gets rid of his force power, so he can't push me away when I go in for the kill. I think drain should be reworked to just drain force power, not drain force power and heal.

And by the way, AL, I do improve in my game. I'm not the best player in the wide world, but I learn new things from people who are better than me. How can you learn from people who are trying to learn from you? I have a hard time beleiving that you discovered all of your strategies on your own.

Originally posted by Zek
Drain is just ridiculous, always has been. Having one power that not only cripples your opponent's force ability but also fills up your HP is stupid. It's bad enough that Darkies have a regenerative ability at all, but it just doesn't make any sense that it's usually better than the Light one.

Yeah but if done *right a stand alone heal is much better.

As a dark you would be reliant on getting close to others to heal. This translates into getting up in the face of a guy to drain off him when you are already near death.

A light could simple book it out of there and heal up in safety.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.

Maybe from a superficial level.

WHY?! would you change heal!?

its the ONE decent power the light side has that isn't a damn counter! DON'T change it

and you IDIOTS that think that the light sider should have to crouch and be defensless while using it should think how [B]useless that would be in a full server.

drain should prob be nerked, but its quite obvious that the people who want it gone are dark siders lmao

one could complain that grip needs to be nerked in light sabre only servers (coz its perfectly fair outside of that)
but it shouldn't be changed

i think drain should be removed completely and instead force lightning should be enhanced, because drain kinda defies the whole 'all out offensive' darkside we've all grown to love and also its a pain in the arse in mp.

in sp a gradual healing power would be cool even if it was max lvled, but i dissagree with a passive healing power because mp mode is too fast paced for it. just leave it as an instant move :)

more people go the darkside anyway (coz its *"cooler"* to be evil....) so it can't piss off tooo many people lol

if heal is nerked in anyway it'll make the light side completely useless

Right now heal is totally worthless. You have to spend 1/2 of your entire force pool to gain back 25 health. I land one single kick and you just spent 1/2 your pool for 5 hp...

Personally I don't like hp regenerating powers for either side because it makes people play sloppy and that means lesser quality competition, but that's just my opinion.

But since obviously both will remain step one is to make heal stronger if drain remains unchanged.


Now if drain were removed heal would have to require a slow down period or something along the lines of what people are suggesting because having one guy who could just run around and constantly heal while the other could not would be absurd if there was no risk/downside involved in the heal process.


If drain were to no longer function as an hp regenerating power it still would need to have an incentive to use it. Have the dark suck the force and convert it to energy that ups their speed/attack power briefly or something along those lines.

I'd have to disagree with the idea of heal becoming a 'passive' regenerating power. The idea of regaining 1 hp per 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous considering the fast flow of an MP game, which might only last 10 minutes. If you had to stand in a corner away from the fighting to heal, then there's no point in even being in the game at all - it would be utterly useless. When I join an MP game, I want to be able to join in the battles, not retire for most of the game just to regain health.

Also, if Heal did become a passive regenerative power, with a higher ratio (say 10 hp every 30 seconds), then everyone would complain again because you're basically constantly healing. And does that mean that a Light sider would then have a constant drain on their force pool? That hardly seems fair. At least with the current system when a Dark Sider uses Drain, they can steal enough of my force pool to prevent me from healing. If as suggested, Drain was limited to just draining the force pool, and was not used to heal the Dark Sider, then it balances out fairly, because if the Light sider and Dark sider have both sustained damage, they are put on more of an even footing healthwise - but the Dark sider now has the advantage due to an increased Force pool of their own, which they can use for whatever they want, be it push, grip or lightning.

I accept that some of the power-up placement in some of the maps in JO could have been better thought out, because if you find the right spot, you can just keep running over power-ups in a lightsaber battle (shields + bacta) and keep fighting endlessly. If the shields were spaced farther apart, and the bacta was kept away from shield power-up points, that would do a lot to negate some of the drawn-out battles. So I hope they address item placement in JA.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

How can you learn from people who are trying to learn from you?

I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean, but it's always beneficial to play people both better and worse than yourself. He who can't learn any lessons from inferior or superior opposition is doomed to mediocrity.

However, I try to live by the precept that my ideal gaming world is one in which I have no rival. I'd like a world in which nobody was even CLOSE to my skill level, and even though it's obviously never going to happen, that's no reason not to train towards it. ;)

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

I have a hard time beleiving that you discovered all of your strategies on your own.

Actually the ability to discover strategies before anyone else is key to staying far enough in front of the crowd in order that you might challenge for the top spot in ladders or tournaments. Every time you play with someone, you give them an opportunity to learn your tactics. Thus, you must always be making up new tactics. It's good exercise for the imagination too.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko:

I really like that idea about the light siders regaining HP over time automatically.

I think the "passive heal" is a pretty awful idea, personally. Hopefully JA will be a fast-paced game, and it should have fast-paced powers associated with it. Heal that heals in six seconds flat, associated with a meditative stance.

Originally posted by Rockstar:

WHY?! would you change heal!?

its the ONE decent power the light side has that isn't a damn counter! DON'T change it

and you IDIOTS that think that the light sider should have to crouch and be defensless while using it should think how [B]useless that would be in a full server.Sheesh, calm down sonny. It's not good form to go around calling people idiots, unless they've done it to you first.

As for heal, it's been nerfed since 1.03. It's useless. It's worthless. In JA, hopefully it'll be boosted, but with a meditative stance attached so that one cannot use it in the middle of combat. As for your assertion that it'd be useless in a busy game, I find myself alone for at least 10 seconds at a time, even during busy games. Well, alone except for the bodies, that is.

Plus, you could use heal in conjunction with mind-trick. That'd be rather spiffy, meditating away in the middle of a battle, completely invisible... :)

As for Drain, I don't think it should be nerfed. Perhaps its range and the size of its fan should be decreased, but nerfing powers leads only to woe.

i think that all that really needs to be done is that it should only work while in a crouched, stationary position.

Oh, and take it out of the single player... any SP game that has a healing ability automatically becomes both amazingly easy, and an exercise in fight, wait, fight, wait while you heal after every battle. its not as if it is needed when you have bacta and healing droids anyway.

Originally posted by Rockstar
i think drain should be removed completely and instead force lightning should be enhanced, because drain kinda defies the whole 'all out offensive' darkside we've all grown to love and also its a pain in the arse in mp. What? The power takes away another player's force power, leaving them defenseless. That sounds pretty offensive to me.

Originally posted by Rockstar
if heal is nerked in anyway it'll make the light side completely useless LOL. Well, the lightsider could just turn on absorb to prevent drain from taking their force power and then using it to lightning them. Oh yeah, the light side is really useless. :rolleyes:

About the meditating period: something like 5 seconds of "sitting duckness" would be ok.

If you're fighting against someone and are getting low on HP, just jump across a bridge and roll behind a pillar and heal. A fast opponent could probably get a hit/throw in just as your getting up, but a slower one or someone who wasn't expecting your sudden move couldn't.

I'd very much prefer that ^^ to the insta-heal people can use while in mid swing.

Personally, I thought heal should have been similar to SP in terms of the meditate, and if at least to meet with the whiners, allow them to move around but not attack.

I also liked the hp regen portion as the force pool decreases. Something like that would allow you to still kill someone while force heal is still active, but the healee would have HP coming back or at least some left over if you didn't get the killer blow.

The only problem I have with drain to this date is the AOE drain. If it was restricted to level 2 range (both horizontally and distance wise), with a slightly tweaked HP:FP conversion ratio, then I might deem it balanced.

And as for the person that said we are taking out the one power that is not a counter for the light side: shut up.

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose
Personally, I thought heal should have been similar to SP in terms of the meditate, and if at least to meet with the whiners, allow them to move around but not attack.

I also liked the hp regen portion as the force pool decreases. Something like that would allow you to still kill someone while force heal is still active, but the healee would have HP coming back or at least some left over if you didn't get the killer blow.


Well, I like to heal on the run as I go find another person to fight. I rather not meditate. But of course that poses the problem as with the current system so I see where you are coming from. It's a tough one. Not being able to attack might be a compromise.The hp regen portion might work as well. Anyways, If I did have to meditate to heal, I would like the ability to stop healing if someone gets too close.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko JA is not an entirely new game. It takes JO and makes some minor changes, then adds new levels and models. Saber combat system? Graphics? Sound design? Level style? I would be greatly surprised if these were more than 20% different from JO. I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Emon says: [Maybe from a superficial level.]

Well, to my mind, the only real changes are at the superficial level, the actual feel and style of the game won't change, jsut the guns and force powers, etc. That's just my opinion, though.

And the caonstant heal thing could work, if gameplay were slowed down (which, for the record, I'm not saying would be a good thing). I find that in FFA maps where everybody starts with 100/100 and can get a maximum of 100/200, if you start to lose a fight (sabers only, BTW) you can just run off and heal for a while. Anyway, I don't like how a healer can just run around the map and only die from a single, well placed blow, but that's just me.

I agree that SP was too damn easy after you got heal. The beggining of the game is really tough, campared to Bespin (where you first encounter heal). Once you get heal level 2 or 3 and Mind Trick level 3, the game becomes a complete cakewalk, except the parts where you fight Jedi (who, because of AI problems, fight very unnaturally and are mostly all pushovers). The only tough parts after you get heal are when you have to try to protect Lando, or an R5, or Jan.

I think that healing should be slightly different for different game types, at least. Healing should be harder to do in duels and should slow you down some in FFA. In the end, though we have to put all of our faith into Raven to find a solution (and, failing that, tell the modders what we think).

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I agree that SP was too damn easy after you got heal. The beggining of the game is really tough, campared to Bespin (where you first encounter heal). Once you get heal level 2 or 3 and Mind Trick level 3, the game becomes a complete cakewalk, except the parts where you fight Jedi (who, because of AI problems, fight very unnaturally and are mostly all pushovers). The only tough parts after you get heal are when you have to try to protect Lando, or an R5, or Jan.


Yeh, I think the game got a lot easier twice...firstly when you got the saber, then when you got heal. I'm not complaining bout getting the saber, definately not, but it sure made you a lot less vulnerable, and suddenly stormtroopers became much less of a hazard. Heal definately takes away from the 'edge' of the game a bit in SP, you know you can get that HP up inbetween fights up to full if you wish. At least at level 1 it was slow and you had to pause I guess, at higher levels it did kill your FPS a bit, but it definately made things easier, and bacta cannisters became a lot less important. I'd prefer some kind of built in heal limit, like you can only heal a certain number of times in a level, or say once every 10 minutes - but then I guess people want to se their force how they choose.

Originally posted by StormHammer
I'd have to disagree with the idea of heal becoming a 'passive' regenerating power. The idea of regaining 1 hp per 30 seconds is a bit ridiculous considering the fast flow of an MP game, which might only last 10 minutes. If you had to stand in a corner away from the fighting to heal, then there's no point in even being in the game at all - it would be utterly useless. When I join an MP game, I want to be able to join in the battles, not retire for most of the game just to regain health.

Also, if Heal did become a passive regenerative power, with a higher ratio (say 10 hp every 30 seconds), then everyone would complain again because you're basically constantly healing. And does that mean that a Light sider would then have a constant drain on their force pool? That hardly seems fair. At least with the current system when a Dark Sider uses Drain, they can steal enough of my force pool to prevent me from healing. If as suggested, Drain was limited to just draining the force pool, and was not used to heal the Dark Sider, then it balances out fairly, because if the Light sider and Dark sider have both sustained damage, they are put on more of an even footing healthwise - but the Dark sider now has the advantage due to an increased Force pool of their own, which they can use for whatever they want, be it push, grip or lightning.

I accept that some of the power-up placement in some of the maps in JO could have been better thought out, because if you find the right spot, you can just keep running over power-ups in a lightsaber battle (shields + bacta) and keep fighting endlessly. If the shields were spaced farther apart, and the bacta was kept away from shield power-up points, that would do a lot to negate some of the drawn-out battles. So I hope they address item placement in JA.

Ok, my 1hp per 30 seconds example was an example. MP is too fast paced for that. An yes.. 10 hp per 30 seconds is a bit fast. But we have established that MP is quite fast paced indead... so perhaps 5hp/30s will be just right? How about 4hp/30s? No?.. 4.5 then?

What I'm trying to say is that on the low side (1hp/30s) you agree its too slow. But you also agree that it can get to fast. Well... the world is full of middle grounds. If there's a low side and a high side, then there's gotta be a "just right" somewhere in the middle.

As for Drain being constant? An interesting consept! Lets say when 10 meters from a dark jedi who has force drain ability you regain your force power... except only a bit slower. And as your proximity to the dark Jedi narrows, your rate of regen gets slower and slower (never, of course, go down). Since its a passive ability, it's at no cost to the dark Jedi to do. And the effect is any opposing jedi has a harder and harder time regaining mana the closer he gets to his opponent. This would give jedi with drain an incentive to do close combat, and be the maniac offensive dark jedi we know him to be. Now THATS a gameplay drivin force power if I ever heard one.

THAT is a really cool idea.

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
THAT is a really cool idea.
i second that.

Passive force powers would be a cool addition to the game, and would add another aspect to the whole force-powers situation. Right now there are 1-time use powers and on/off powers. To have a few powers that are on all the time would be neat.

The dark jedi would have a slight advantage in, say, a saber lock. He could get back force points faster than the light sider, and so could use push more often ( I don't really like the whole push thing, but, meh!). That is a very neat idea and I sure hope that something to that end gets into the game (unlikely).

Frankly all these "passive" force powers would only turn the game into a massive ballroom dance. People circling each other for hours until their respective powers have taken what effect they wish. It'd turn lightsiders into runners, even more so than in 1.02. They ran away to heal instantly before, then came back into the fray... but with this passive healing, they'd spend all their time running away. Awful.