I like the idea of passive force powers, but I see that there can be a lot of downsides... But it would be really great if the difference between dark and light side became more clear.
Darksiders would have other abilities and disadvantages than the Lightsiders. Right now only a set of forcepowers seperates a Jedi from a Sith...
Darksiders would have other abilities and disadvantages than the Lightsiders. Right now only a set of forcepowers seperates a Jedi from a Sith...According to movie canon Hertog, the only thing that separates a Jedi and a Sith is how they use their powers, and in what spirit. Jedi can use choking powers, Sith can cloud the minds of others. There's no division in powers. Think MOTS.
How I want it:
Heal:
as some said, you crouch & meditate. Health gradually increases until a certain hp is regained, depending on the level of the force. I think it should be at least 2x as much as it is i 1.04. (in duels you will almost never be able to use this, so if you manage to use it then it better be worth it). It can't be to slow though, it should be pretty fast, but it would leave you open for hits for maybe 5 seconds. Which is forever in JK2. All other force powers are turned off if you use heal (protect, absorb).
Drain:
You can only walk while using it and you can't block anything. The wideness of the drain is about 50% less than JK2, making aiming actually necessary. When you use drain you can't abort it until 2 seconds passed by. The healing you do is the same rate as in JK2 except for one thing; When you start to drain someone the drain goes slow but slowly speeds up, after locking on to the other guy for maybe like 1,5 seconds the drainrate is 100%. the lvl2 version should not be infinit ranged, if you want to drain you must stay near your opponent.
So; light siders needs to get a distance between the opponents to heal, and the darksiders needs to stay close to be able to heal (and use a little bit more aiming skill).
Healing will be much harder and the opponent can beat you up really hard if you try it.
Originally posted by Spider AL
According to movie canon Hertog, the only thing that separates a Jedi and a Sith is how they use their powers, and in what spirit. Jedi can use choking powers, Sith can cloud the minds of others. There's no division in powers. Think MOTS.
**** the movies ;) No seriously, it's for gameplay's sake. I just like to see more differences between the light and the dark side.
And if both Jedi and Sith can use the same powers, JO was wrong too in MP, since you can't use absorb and grip at the same time :rolleyes:
And if both Jedi and Sith can use the same powers, JO was wrong too in MP, since you can't use absorb and grip at the same time That's right. Hence: Think MOTS. ;)
No seriously, it's for gameplay's sake. I just like to see more differences between the light and the dark side. Why? The more differences, the harder to match the two sides. And nowhere, including the canon, does it say that there should be many obvious differences. Hence my previous post.
I think MOTS was the ideal, personally. The best gameplay came from everyone having the same access to the same powers.
Originally posted by Spider AL
Frankly all these "passive" force powers would only turn the game into a massive ballroom dance. People circling each other for hours... So it would be just like now. Might as well just call it a mod and have done with it :) And Al, are you using the movies to support your point? Has the world gone topsy-tervy? :D I do agree with you though. I always thought MOTS had handled force powers the best. I'd be thrilled if JA went that way. Mero has some good ideas too.
Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I'm actually kind of disappointed that LEC didn't market this as a stand alone expansion, because it really isn't JKIII. LEC isn't marketing it as JKIII...
And Al, are you using the movies to support your point? Has the world gone topsy-tervy? :DHey, if it works, use it. :p
Seriously, nah. I was just under the impression that he'd gotten the idea that Jedi and Sith should be separate, from the same place most people do, the secondary canon. So I decided to point out that the primary canon agrees with the opposite.
So it would be just like now. This is sadly true... Fortunately, it isn't currently the best way to win, even though people do it. The danger is that passive powers would make running away, the best way to win. Thus, I'd have to do it. :( I don't like running.
Originally posted by Spider AL
Hey, if it works, use it. :p
Seriously, nah. I was just under the impression that he'd gotten the idea that Jedi and Sith should be separate, from the same place most people do, the secondary canon. So I decided to point out that the primary canon agrees with the opposite. I certainly wouldn't argue that :)
Originally posted by Spider AL
This is sadly true... Fortunately, it isn't currently the best way to win... True enough.
I certainly wouldn't argue thatOh it absolutely does. I mean, there is only one power that a Sith uses in the Original Trilogy that you don't see a Jedi use as well. This suggests that both sides have access to roughly the same abilities. This then surely means that it's one's mindset and intent that defines whether one is a Lightsider or a Darksider, not the powers that you use to facilitate your intentions.
ok kids a little history lesson:
MOTS = Masters of the Sith, the expansion pack for Dark Forces 2
thus it is a GAME not a movie.
Ummm... MOTS = Mysteries of the Sith. I personally haven't played it so would somebody please give me some background on how they did the force powers? :D
Yolk, there was no light or dark division in MotS. Merely a range of powers inspired by canon and JK respectively, which each player could choose a selection from.
It was leet.
Originally posted by Rumor:
ok kids a little history lesson:
MOTS = Masters of the Sith, the expansion pack for Dark Forces 2
thus it is a GAME not a movie."kids"? ;) Mysteries mate, mysteries. Not masters. And it may have been marketed as an expansion pack, but since it ran using an updated engine and did not use any JK resources, it was technically and to all intents and purposes, a standalone game. The only hard link it had to JK was that it checked the JK CD1, in order to tell whether you owned the game. Rather pointlessly, one thought, as that measure was easily circumvented.
Are you sure it wasn't a movie btw? I thought it was a movie. :nut:
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh it absolutely does. I mean, there is only one power that a Sith uses in the Original Trilogy that you don't see a Jedi use as well. This suggests that both sides have access to roughly the same abilities. This then surely means that it's one's mindset and intent that defines whether one is a Lightsider or a Darksider, not the powers that you use to facilitate your intentions. I was agreeing with you :) From this post, I get the impression you thought I wasn't. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. :D
I second the MOTS system in which there are not force side exclusive powers. I do remember the game, I played it alot and I must say that it led to great fun since the range of possible enemies and force related strategies would difer immenselly.
Although it poses another question... right now thinking of JO, the force pwoers is what defines the force side... if the MOTS system was applyed how would you tell a light side from a dark side, or is there even a need for such a distinction?
Originally posted by Spider AL
Yolk, there was no light or dark division in MotS. Merely a range of powers inspired by canon and JK respectively, which each player could choose a selection from.
It was leet.
"kids"? ;) Mysteries mate, mysteries. Not masters. And it may have been marketed as an expansion pack, but since it ran using an updated engine and did not use any JK resources, it was technically and to all intents and purposes, a standalone game. The only hard link it had to JK was that it checked the JK CD1, in order to tell whether you owned the game. Rather pointlessly, one thought, as that measure was easily circumvented.
Are you sure it wasn't a movie btw? I thought it was a movie. :nut:
crap i wrote masters? feh i meant mysteries. oh well u kno what i meant lol...
yes spider al, you are a kid :p
Hmmmm.... Makes me want to go out and buy MOTS. $5 in a bargain bin? Sounds like a good Force system. That would be nice to see in the up coming JA.
But it won't be there, since they said they were going to seperate light and dark side even more than in JO... And I haven't played MotS, so I don't know how it worked out online :(
MOTS had a class system:
*Jedi
*Soldier
*Bounty-Hunter
*Scout
I think this was all there was.
The Force powers were separated in tiered groups from the so called neutral force powers to the more powerfull defensive/offensive powers such as protect and destruction.
There were force allocation points much like JO but unlike it theywere not more expensive the higher the power..there was another kind of limitation: there were limits to the number of force power in each tier... the first tier had about 6 powers (Push, Pull, Seeing, etc) and you could chose up to 4 of the powers, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th(?) tier had 4 or powers to chose from each but you could only select 2 of them in each tier.
There was an un tiered hability called defense that costed twice the force points. The Bounty hunters had alot fo defense automatically which didnt allow them to choose any force powers... the rest besides the Jedi also had defense. A jedi could also pick defense which made them more resistant to damage but they had to sacrifice alot of force in return. Since each point allocated into defense closed access to a force tier from top down.
Well that pretty much describes the force system in MOTS.
If anything is unclear I'll be happy to clarify. :cool:
Originally posted by Prime:
I was agreeing with you :) From this post, I get the impression you thought I wasn't. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong. :DAhh yes, I think you missed a "with" out somewhere in your previous post. "I wouldn't argue that" can be construed as being opposite to "I wouldn't argue with that. TSK TSK! :p
Still, gave me an opportunity to jump right back on my soapbox and start yammering, so cheers mate! :D
Originally posted by BloodRiot:
if the MOTS system was applyed how would you tell a light side from a dark side, or is there even a need for such a distinction?I don't think there is a need... After all, any player who wants to win an online game ends up using a standard set of powers, whatever side of the force those powers happen to be on. And for RPGers, the movie canon states that Sith and Jedi have access to the same abilities, so hey, everyone's happy with the MotS system. :)
Originally posted by Rumor:
yes spider al, you are a kid :pIt's a pleasant rarity to be called a kid at my age, I have to accost the elderly at knifepoint to illicit such a compliment usually. Many thanks.
Originally posted by HertogJan:
But it won't be there, since they said they were going to seperate light and dark side even more than in JO... And I haven't played MotS, so I don't know how it worked out online They've said that about MP as well as SP? That's a damn shame. Still, never mind, we can mod it.
Question: when you have acces to all forcepowers, wouldn't they be exploited??
I can imagine absorb+lightning or something being overused, although the limited supply of mana would deal with lots of problems... I like the idea, gotta play MotS sometime soon :)
how can people think that the sith need a healing power aswell as the light?? if that is so then the light side needs lightning??? coz darkside healing?! :confused: someone doesn't know their starwars!!! :evanpiel: lol
the heal is a light side power only because of its tendency to do good. :D
the dark side get an absolutely ridiculas power.... and yes folks thats drain...... *shakes head*
I can imagine absorb+lightning or something being overused, although the limited supply of mana would deal with lots of problems... As you say Hert, the mana consumption seemed to even everything out. One couldn't use too many powers simultaneously with a normal mana pool. It worked fairly well...
Originally posted by Spider AL
As you say Hert, the mana consumption seemed to even everything out. One couldn't use too many powers simultaneously with a normal mana pool. It worked fairly well...
OK :) Oh and if you want to abbreviate my name, I think 'HJ' would work best... Or maybe Hertog, but 'Hert' by itself means something totally different than my nickname...
BTW my nickname = Hertog Jan = Count/Duke Jan
Jan is a comman MALE name in the Netherlands ;)
Originally posted by HertogJan
BTW my nickname = Hertog Jan = Count/Duke Jan
Jan is a comman MALE name in the Netherlands ;) Holly cow! I actually learned something at Lucasforums! :D
Aye, you learn something new every day.
Is Jan is pronounced "yan" in the netherlands?
While "Jan" in the US and possibly UK is short for "Janine" or "Janice" or somesuch female name.
'Hert' by itself means something totally different than my nickname...Oooh, what does it mean? Is it DIRTY? :D
I cant resist indulging this out of topic conversation cuz it also spiked my curiosity..what does hert mean? ;p
Oh and I already said this in another forum... but you wouldn't believe what Dooku SOUNDS like in Portuguese.
I'll explain... The Translation is pretty simple..The title "Count" becomes "Conde" and rthe name has no translation... So the literal translation is "Conde Dooku".
Well the sound Dooku(doo-koo) is exactly the same as if we joined two portuguese words "do" and "cъ"-> "Conde Do Cъ"
So basically "Conde Dooku" and "Conde Do Cъ" are exactly the same sound and "Conde Do Cъ" translated back into english means something like "Count of the @ss".
How about that huh?
Sorry guys, Hert doesn't mean something like ass or something :)
A 'hert' is a deer... You know, the animal!!
And 'Jan' is pronounced (in English) as er... (uh-oh) 'yawn', but the 'a' sound is short, and not as long as in yawn.
AND PLEASE DONT MAKE JOKES ABOUT THE YAWN THING :) It was only an example ;)
Oh and before I forget it: Hertog Jan was a count in The Netherlands/Belgium (which weren't seperate states back then) and he was very powerfull (hehe) and he liked beer very much. That's why a beer brand was named after him, it's the best beer of the Netherlands and it's logo looks like:
http://members.lycos.nl/hertogjan45/hj.jpg)
http://www.hertogjan.nl) is the website of this beer brand :)
That was "Dutch for newbies" lesson 2, tomorrow we start with pronounciation of the word "scheerschuim", which means "shavinf foam" in Dutch :)
Sorry guys, Hert doesn't mean something like ass or something
A 'hert' is a deer... You know, the animal!!Well never mind HJ, you'll always be a donkey to us. :p
UUUUMMMMMMMMM..... BBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR :guiness:
Originally posted by yolkboy
UUUUMMMMMMMMM..... BBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR :guiness:
Exactly my thoughts ;) Oh and guinness is not beer :p I prefer lager beer, the thought of warm beer makes me sick :eek:
nods with in agreement with the warm beer comment
.... tho laggas don't beat good ol' beer like toowies :D
ahem
WHY!!! would you give dark side healing powers?!?!?!???
that is like giving the light side force lightning???
people dis the idea of giving the light side an enhanced force push yet the darkies want heal???
heal is more light than push is dark....
people go meh meh meh, light side only used for defense.... its used to DEFEND YOURSELF. yes they wouldn't use lightning but in ep1 how many droids did quigon push over...?? OMG he's SOOO evil
I'm not sure who said this first...... but...
It was my impression that force abilities are just force abilities, and that whether you are light side or dark side is determined on how you use the powers. Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning in ep two, and shot it back. Say "but but! Dooku shot it!" all you want, the fact still remains that YODA SHOT LIGHTNING! He's not exactly a dark sider.
Also.. Mind Trick. The fuggin Emperor is doing Mind Trick on the entire galaxy. At the end of ep II everyone was clueless as to who is fuggin with the Old Republic. The Jedi aren't that dumb, it's gotta be the "dark side clouding" Yoda's always talkin about. It's just mind trick.
And Luke choked two pig gaurds to death in RotJ. (In quite a bad ass way I might add).
The thing that distinquishes light from dark is anger and peace. The dark side feeds off of rage and hate, so you get quick instant gratification force powers with little to no training by finding something to get pissed off about. Light side developes skill over long time, keeping themselves at peace.
At least thats my take.
the best way to differentiate between dark and lightsiders would be for each to regenerate Force Power in different ways... and/or different force powers to use different amounts of power.
Lightsiders might regenerate while stationary or at rest, while dark siders might regenerate while attacking.
probably impossible to balance gameplay wise, but a more "realistic" way of doing things.
thank you SO SO SO SO MUCH!!! thats exactly right! yoda shot back lightning!!!
im sorry to have to single someone out but "Prime" said even absorbing dark powers and sending them back even only as a force push was "too dark" for the light side, when we have the LORD OF THE LIGHT SIDE (yoda) SENDING BACK FORCE LIGHTNING!!
THIS IS ONE POWER THAT JKA HAS TO UTILISE! i hope so much they put it in the new game
if not they will just make the light side lame again *sighs*
makes you wonder how much starwars lucasarts actually watch huh??
I understand the lightside has little fun with nothing more than coutner powers or non agressive powers... no arguement there...
One has to think about the fun factor involved in the game.. however I must say that im worried about everything being so much about force powers... I'd prefer a crappy force pwoers system over an excelent saber system anyday...
I said this in a few thread already so im gonna keep this simple this time... 3 words: MOTS force system.
In MP make no distinction between force sides and just let the side be determined by the way one plays... the force is the same for both sides... as said before..yoda shot back lightning... luke gripped the gammoreans in ROTJ... Darth Vader uses protection in ESB when Han fires at him... Palpatine uses mind trick etc etc.
The bottom line for me is... Keep the saber the most effective way of killing an opponent and the force powers just as a bonus or tools that gives the player an advantage in a fight.
Originally posted by Rockstar
people go meh meh meh, light side only used for defense.... its used to DEFEND YOURSELF. yes they wouldn't use lightning but in ep1 how many droids did quigon push over...?? OMG he's SOOO evil The key word in there is "droid". They are not living beings, but machines, just like a toaster. Our man Q-G never used force push on a living being, to my knowledge. As to the real reason battle droids are used in the Prequels, have a look here. (
http://www.jediknight.net/3do/download/17.gif)
This, of course, has nothing to do with JO, but since we are getting into yet another game/movie debate...
Originally posted by ILR
It was my impression that force abilities are just force abilities, and that whether you are light side or dark side is determined on how you use the powers. Yoda absorbed Dooku's lightning in ep two, and shot it back. Say "but but! Dooku shot it!" all you want, the fact still remains that YODA SHOT LIGHTNING! He's not exactly a dark sider. I agree. This is why I and others have proposed that the old MOTS implementation of the Force be used. This represents much more accurately what we see in the movies. The motivations and emotions at the time make a big difference.
Originally posted by ILR
Also.. Mind Trick. The fuggin Emperor is doing Mind Trick on the entire galaxy. At the end of ep II everyone was clueless as to who is fuggin with the Old Republic. The Jedi aren't that dumb, it's gotta be the "dark side clouding" Yoda's always talkin about. It's just mind trick. I'd would debate that this is what is happening, but it isn't worth getting into. But suffice to say that I don't think it is a mind trick. The dark side is, by its nature, difficult to see.
Originally posted by ILR
And Luke choked two pig gaurds to death in RotJ. (In quite a bad ass way I might add). The thing that distinquishes light from dark is anger and peace. The dark side feeds off of rage and hate, so you get quick instant gratification force powers with little to no training by finding something to get pissed off about. Light side developes skill over long time, keeping themselves at peace.
At least thats my take. Yes he did. Once again the MOTS system would reflect this the best. But if we are going to have a system where the lightside has different powers than the dark side, it can be argued that since Luke almost fell to the dark side while fighting Vader, this was a first step in that direction.
Originally posted by Rockstar
thank you SO SO SO SO MUCH!!!LOL.
Originally posted by Rockstar
im sorry to have to single someone out but "Prime" said even absorbing dark powers and sending them back even only as a force push was "too dark" for the light side, when we have the LORD OF THE LIGHT SIDE (yoda) SENDING BACK FORCE LIGHTNING!! Yes, I think that it is too dark for the light side. I view what Yoda did as exactly the same as deflecting blaster fire back at your attacker. This is not the same as a new offensive light side force power that you are proposing. In any case, the JO system of the Force has lightside and darkside powers. For gameplay reasons, the light side is defensive and the dark side is offensive (a decent enough representation of the movies). Because of this, having a light side power that is an attack does not fit. Again, the MOTS system would be much better.
Originally posted by Rockstar
THIS IS ONE POWER THAT JKA HAS TO UTILISE! i hope so much they put it in the new game
if not they will just make the light side lame again *sighs* Why? It seems to me that the only reason you want it is because you want to run around shooting people with Force powers, and pretend you are a good Jedi. Yet again, why not just play using the dark side? It has everything you want. Raven has given you the option of playing either defensively or offensively. You want to play offensively. That option is there. Why are you demanding that the defensive light side has to be changed to offensive as well? This is what I am ultimately arguing against.
Originally posted by Rockstar
makes you wonder how much starwars lucasarts actually watch huh?? LOL. It is probably safe to assume they know more than us. Whether they do or not, theirs is the final word on the matter.
If we got two sides of the force, there's no point whatsoever in having the dark side shoot lightning but give that to the light side as well. Please-please-oh please just play on dark side and everyone's happy.
Having an offensive side and a defensive side but letting the defensive side get all their own cool powers AND offensive ones is just stupid. Who would like to play dark when you can "have it all" as a lightie? Not me.
And how on earth would you make this whole "storing powers"-thing work? I mean.. sure, you might get a burst of lightning every now and then, but what's the point? It matters nothing. We got people noobing around maps with their lightning-key pressed down 24/7 and they get 0 kills (drain/absorb). What good would a little burst do or a powerful push for that matter? You'd have a few more buttons to bind and a much more complicated fighting system requiring a lot of programming for..what exactly?
As for all the "it's in teh movies"-arguments.. oh PLEASE! This is a friggin' game, not a movie! If jedimasterlukeskywalker's ass was saved by a blind Han Solo who happened to swing his stick right on Boba's jetpack's switch, it doesn't mean that it must be implemented in the game too. Vader blocked a blaster shot with his hand. We want that too? All shots just bouncing off players?
The MOTS-system would be cool, though.
Originally posted by Luc Solar
If we got two sides of the force, there's no point whatsoever in having the dark side shoot lightning but give that to the light side as well. Please-please-oh please just play on dark side and everyone's happy.
Having an offensive side and a defensive side but letting the defensive side get all their own cool powers AND offensive ones is just stupid. Who would like to play dark when you can "have it all" as a lightie? Not me.
And how on earth would you make this whole "storing powers"-thing work? I mean.. sure, you might get a burst of lightning every now and then, but what's the point? It matters nothing. We got people noobing around maps with their lightning-key pressed down 24/7 and they get 0 kills (drain/absorb). What good would a little burst do or a powerful push for that matter? You'd have a few more buttons to bind and a much more complicated fighting system requiring a lot of programming for..what exactly? I agree completely...
Originally posted by Luc Solar
If jedimasterlukeskywalker's ass was saved by a blind Han Solo who happened to swing his stick right on Boba's jetpack's switch, it doesn't mean that it must be implemented in the game too. It was a pretty sweet move though :D
actually, i think your right!
we don't need the game to be like the movies... ha!
we don't need anything of it to be like the movies! actually who needs force powers?! ha! thats in the movies! meh! lets just take them out hey? its only a STAR WARS GAME!
actually lets even get rid of light sabers!! who needs em hey?? we don't care if the game aint like the movies.... actually why even call it jedi knight??? lets call it COUNTER STRIKE or SOF2??? why don't we?? we don't care if theres nothing starwars in the game do we?
OFCOARSE WE WANT A STARWARS GAME TO REFLECT THE DAMN MOVIES!!
Originally posted by Rockstar
we don't need anything of it to be like the movies! actually who needs force powers?! ha! thats in the movies! meh! lets just take them out hey? its only a STAR WARS GAME!
actually lets even get rid of light sabers!! who needs em hey?? we don't care if the game aint like the movies.... actually why even call it jedi knight??? lets call it COUNTER STRIKE or SOF2??? why don't we?? we don't care if theres nothing starwars in the game do we?
OFCOARSE WE WANT A STARWARS GAME TO REFLECT THE DAMN MOVIES!! But the game does not need to be exactly like the movies, because this, of course, is impossible. This is a game, and not a movie, so there are going to be differences.
But yes, let's try and make the JK series exactly like the movies. That means:
- there is no Force Heal, Dark Rage, Team Heal, Force Drain, Force Protect, or Force Absorb.
- there is no guided lightsaber throw
- besides the lightsaber, the player would not be able to use anything more than a blaster pistol (if that).
- there would be no Reborn to fight, because you can't imbue people with the Force.
- there would be no dark jedi to fight because Vader and the Emperor killed them all.
- light siders would be unable to push other living players, because it leads to the dark side
- since the game does not take place during the prequels, Kyle Katarn would not exist because the Empire would have discovered when he was born that he had Force potential. And killed him.
- similarly, no Jedi character other than Luke would would exist at that time, because Yoda, Obi-wan, and Luke are the only ones in existence.
- dark siders could only use red lightsabers, and light siders could only use blue, green, and purple.
- only blasters and thermal detonators would be in the game.
- Kyle would have turned to the dark side because he used force lightning.
- Kyle would have turned to the dark side for seeking revenge.
- Kyle would have started out with full Force powers at the beginning of JO.
- the game would have no powerup, shields, bacta tanks, and so on.
- Kyle would not be with Jan because "attachment is forbidden".
- and so on...
The point is, because it is a game and not a movie, compromises are made for gameplay and other reasons.
... you put up a good arguement lmao
however there are several counters:
as for kyles attachment, and use of weapons. this is because he isn't really actually a jedi, more of what luke was in the 1st 2 movies, really just a dude with a lightsaber and mediocre use of the force. however, in the game he becomes veeery strong with the force, more than he probably actually could (i doubt he could use lightning), however, as you said this compremise is made for game play
powers like absorb, and protection, they are just cool :D
Originally posted by Rockstar
as for kyles attachment, and use of weapons. this is because he isn't really actually a jedi, more of what luke was in the 1st 2 movies, really just a dude with a lightsaber and mediocre use of the force. Indeed. That is why Kyle is such a great character, as far as gaming is concerned :)
But in JA, you going to play a real JEDI. And in JA, Kyle's a real Jedi too :D So I still can't see why you still have an arsenal like that, but hey, for gameplay's sake...