Is it just me? Or now that the lead programmer from Raven has started to post, there is a distinct underlining bitterness being expressed at him because the animation tools or the SP SDK never got released; being rude usually doesn't mean you get what you want!
Wow now I am convinced its real! :D
If you're referring to my post. I thought it out to deliberately not be insulting. I ammended what I was going to say after reading the later posts that ChangKhan supports modders quite keenly. The only part of my post which could be considered insulting was actually suggested to me by someone else who wasn't registered on the forums, and it was intended to be provocative rather than insulting.
The aim of my post was to try and understand the real reasons behind withholding the SDK (I don't really care either way, since all my singleplayer ideas are possible without it), i've never been convinced by the "financial suicide" argument... What I do know is that the only LEC game to really support modding has been JK, unfortunately the amazing team who made the game quit the company long ago.
I know you all want it so here it is. Jedi Knight III banners and avas. Check them out. As always donations (in points) are exepted: CLICK ME!!! (
http://www.geocities.com/jediknightiii/bannersandavas.html)
(I am not promoting my web site. I am just sharing my creations:D )
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=2017469)
Originally posted by GSA_HertogJan
But I don't think it will be important for JK3 (or any JK game), since it's a pretty individual game, even in CTF...
Are you kidding me? You obviously don't play good CTF games. When I play, sometimes I just want to lash out and yell at someone for doing something stupid.
This game is not all single player either. I didn't even touch the campaign mode I don't think. It's multiplayer was the first of it's kind, that's why it was so popular.
Originally posted by StormHammer
Er...you do know that Jedi Outcast took just over a year from start to finish to complete, don't you? They also knocked out Heretic II in a very short time.
Cool, I didn't know that.
Keep in mind that Raven have a team of over 70 people, usually working on 3 projects at a time...so they would probably allocate 20-25 people to each project when it's in full swing. That's 200 man-hours per day...and over the course of 6 months you're talking 36,500 man hours.
Let's hope its true then, they'll deliver the game in the specified date.
Considering they would be building on the work they already did for Jedi Outcast in terms of engine modification, a further 6 or 7 months of development time doesn't sound unrealistic to me.
Yes, it still sounds a little bit unrealistic to me anyways, I've heard they're improving some things too, adding RPG characteristics, mission types, larger maps, and so on, some may be simple, but others would require a little more effort that may (or may not) change around the engine itself.
I think it's too premature to state it'll be done until the end of this year. I'll keep my fingers crossed though. :)
As far as using the Q3:TA engine goes...they have a wealth of experience using it.
I am quite sure they are greatly tuned with this engine, a reason why I'll bet this game will be quite astonishing (if is not a hoax in first place), in playability, and storyline, and to be quite frank, I wasn't impressed with Doom 3...
Switching to another engine as a development platform takes time in getting your team up to speed with all it's nuances. As for using something like the Unreal engine...they would have to have a very good reason to make the $500,000 dollar licensing fee ...
Yes, and I am glad, someone isn't just dropping some eye-popping a new super whiz engine with a rotten core, some unplayable little "3D Mark" demo. Usually because the resources of playability weren't appropriately planned. I've got some of these titles on my shelf.
As I've said before, I'm not necessarily a fan of the Q3 tech...it seems to have a lot of inherent problems that require work-arounds. Other engines do have better capabilities, and I do think that Q3 is approaching the end of it's useful shelf-life for high-profile titles. I'll frankly be very interested to see what Raven can achieve by tweaking the new DOOM engine to meet their requirements...
That's when it mature out with the hardware out there... Most people doesn't have a GeForce FX or Radeon 9700... And when Doom 3 acquire its one year old label on the market.
I thought I was talking with a fellow sw developer, I was only hoping it wasn't an exploited one. :D
Originally posted by Prime
I know that in general game programmers (who are usually younger and probably single) tend to work more hours than your standard software guy. Sleeping in the office, etc. is not all that uncommon. Indeed, it is not a lifestyle that people can handle forever...
I agree with you.
The good thing most people always end up realizing it isn't really worth it, until they find their most productive state of mind, if you know what I mean.
The younger programmers that usually stay up late in their works, are either the ones that are swept away by it's own ideas, or in the second sorry lifestyle you described, with their heads in how cozy their homes are.
But we're not talking with you Raven guys, now back to work! Or there will be no muffins for you. ;) :p
Edit: This is not necessarily directed towards Chang, and I am absolutly in no way attacking him or insulting him. He's a great guy and has helped me with my work many times. I'm simply trying to explain my beliefs in order to ultimately better the community.
You are absolutly right, DeT. I would never, ever expect LEC to release full engine source code. I would expect no more than what the MP SDK offers.
The logic of "create a whole new game" is flawed, because as you stated, the EULA would prevent us. Additionally, someone could effectively make their own multiplayer game, but the MP SDK was not witheld.
Half-Life is the single most greatest example for how a company's support (in general) for mods will help make the game successful. There are hundreds of mods for the game, the ones that stick out the most like Counterstrike, Team Fortress stuff, Firearms, Day of Defeat, etc., have helped the game survive and brought Valve and Sierra loads of cash. And unlike other games where you just download the mods, HL is even packaged with user made mods. I know people who already have the game and buy it again just to get the mods so they don't have to download them!
Jedi Knight is another good example. Although it was overshadowed by games like HL and Quake II, a wealth of people still edit this game today. Many people I know who edit JK don't like the game or even Star Wars at all! They edit and play the game solely for making and playing mods.
Another good example (especially for singleplayer) would be Dark Forces. The game has been out for nearly nine years and it still has a very active, albeit small community at df-21.net.
Now lets recap. Half-Life is one of the most successful games ever. It has one an unprecedented amount of awards. PC Gamer has given it the best game of all time award twice. I believe I can recall reading in the article that it would never have gotten as large and successful as it is without it's mod support, and certantly not all those awards. It certantly could not be where it is today without mods.
Now lets look at LEC. Dark Forces and Jedi Knight are two of their most successful and popular games ever. Both are fully editable (within the confines of the engine of course), and both games are alive today solely because they were completely editable (again, within confines of the engine).
Releasing full SDKs (once again, in confines of the engine and such) has helped many, many games stay alive and earn their publishers and developers much more money. It's very logical, and is a very, very sane business practice.
I fully agrea with you. I would not still be playing CS if it didn't have alot of mods.
Lets all take a guess on what the release date for JKIII will be (if it's real). I think it will be Dec. 15.
Good point there Emon, I too believe that these games gain a few more years with mods.
And Counter-Strike is really the biggest example, since there are still people buying these games in full retail price.
Think also of CyberCafes and LanHouses, they buy these most played games in a ton.
http://pc.ign.com/articles/391/391590p1.html)
New article from IGN!!
It basically confirms that it is indeed 60-70% done!! So I'm guessing an optimistic September release!
As for my thoughts on JKIII, I think that the team should try and include what was already availible from the large number of mods:
* Model scaling (a must IMO)
* Larger explosions (especially from thermal detonators)
* Ability to push/pull objects in-game
* Make Force Speed faster but last for a much, much shorter time
* Better looking sabers....from what I saw in the Gamestar screens I was a bit disappointed....think SFX mod...those are some nice sabers....
* More powerful lightning
As for SP only:
* Add force seeing, absorb, etc...
* Much more civilians to interact with (sorta RPG like)
* More animals/beast villains (think birds from JK1 and wolves from MOTS)
* Larger enviornments
Also....will this game boost the system requirements at all??
Originally posted by mariners2001
http://pc.ign.com/articles/391/391590p1.html)
New article from IGN!!
It basically confirms that it is indeed 60-70% done!! So I'm guessing an optimistic September release!
Ok, now I am convinced. I am a long time IGN reader.
:smash:
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
:yeldance:
A sequel so soon with such good news about it early on is a definite sign that LEC has acknowledged their screwup in JO and is determined to fix it. The use of only a modified JO engine is extremely friendly to the current mod community. Most all mods could be easily ported to the new game.
Originally posted by mariners2001
http://pc.ign.com/articles/391/391590p1.html)
New article from IGN!!
It basically confirms that it is indeed 60-70% done!! So I'm guessing an optimistic September release!
September...it best be before my 9/14 birthday...i'll be so ticked if it's like 9/20 or something.
Actually Emon, the Dark Forces source code was never released. They still don't have it, even after 8 or 9 years!
The lack of an SP SDK, does seriously inhibit the growth of some MODs, such as the Dark Forces MOD, or AOTC TC.
But still, there are ways round everything...
It would've been nice to see JKIII on a new engine, but I have theories as to why this isn't the case (excuse me if these have already been covered):
1. The only viable engine would be Doom 3. We've been told we'd be lucky to see Doom 3 by Christmas, more likely early 2004. That means that we won't see any licensed games until a while after that. Quake 4 will likely be the first, and at a guess I'd say we won't see that for 18 months or more. A possible JKII sequel on the Doom 3 engine wouldn't be out for about another 2 years from now...
2. Money grabbers. Capitalist LucasArts - that's what a lot of it boils down to. Using the Quake 3 engine means they can get the game out quickly, making more money. Also, they can hit the console market. No current console could run Doom 3 - but they can run Quake 3. Using the Doom 3 engine cuts a large chunk out of your prospective market. If they can get JKIII out on the Q3 engine by Christmas, they hit the holiday shopping sprees. Then they can get working on JK IV on a new engine, ready for a release further down the line.
To be honest, it all comes down to money at the end of the day folks - but that doesn't stop it from being a great game when it arrives!
Originally posted by The_One
Actually Emon, the Dark Forces source code was never released. They still don't have it, even after 8 or 9 years!
An SDK isn't needed for Dark Forces, both Dark Forces and Jedi Knight use non-compiled data structures, meaning even a complete amatuer could work out how to make mods and levels. An SDK isn't the source code, its the tools and resources required for making mods and levels.
Modern games need SDK's because they don't have the same basic scripting of older games, they use proper compiled resources for greater efficiency and power.
JK3 wouldn't be good on a new engine unless it was scheduled for two years from now. The mod community would be mighty pissed if they felt the pressure of having to abandon them because of a new game in town. Ports of projects will be tremendously easy.
And DeT is correct about DF and JK.
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Besides, an SDK isn't the source code to the entire game. We wouldn't have access to the original Quake 3 engine code, or any of the additions Raven made. We would have the same kind of limitations as the multiplayer SDK. Afterall its not exactly within our power to release a standalone multiplayer game either.
The other issue here is that the game code was in a DLL and not the Quake 3-style VMs that are nice and safe. That's probably one of the biggest issues.
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
From past information Its obvious that you wanted to release as much as possible for modders, but the reasoning behind being unable to has generally not made a lot of sense. Especially when other gaming companies have made their fortune from making games easy to mod.
Actually, the only real examples of this are Quake and Half-Life, and both of those were multiplayer mods, not single-player mods. I can't really think of a single-player code mod for a game that has benefitted the developer or publisher at all....?
Oh...and while we have Chang_Khan here....I was wondering if it would be possible to add the ability to ledge-grab? After playing such games as Tomb Raider and Indiana Jones...I think it's safe to say this would be a logical and significant addition to the game. The ability to grab onto a ledge after being push would add more balance to the game..
Jedi Knight 3
Story & World
The game plays in the X-Men world and revolves around the coming-of-age story of Magma, a less known X-Men character (appearing first in New Mutants). The game features 19 Marvel mutant characters from various time periods, including Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast, Nightcrawler etc. The story is written by experienced Marvel writers, among them Joey Casey, Steven Seagle and more.
LOL! Yeah. I saw that....hopefully just a misprint and not an addition to a bad April Fool's Joke..lol
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
The other issue here is that the game code was in a DLL and not the Quake 3-style VMs that are nice and safe. That's probably one of the biggest issues.
That actually makes a lot of sense, thanks :)
Since i'm assuming JK3 will face the same issues in terms of singleplayer development maybe include some more workarounds to problems? In JK2 we managed to include new NPCs using extra npc config files. Maybe extend this so we can have new quest/mission-based inventory items?
Maybe have it so you can have interconnected levels that you can go back and forth between, collecting items to solve puzzles in old areas etc. ie making it possible for editors to make Deus Ex style missions.
Although I don't know the inner-workings of the engine, these ideas don't sound too tricky to implement.
Nice to see you around here again Chang :)
One question I have is weather or not some type of support could be added for custom, or non-humanoid skeletions? I'm coming completely from an artists perspective, and not a programer, so It may not be possible, but one of the things I always wanted to add was some custom animations for my models. (flowing tenticles, more realistic clothing) Also, any chance of seeing a "ragdoll" type physics system implemented?
I'm very anxious to see what you guys can come up with, especially within such a short time. I plan to rework some of my models and import them into the next game.
Ledge grab would seriously rule.. especially if you could force flip yourself back up and stuff. ;)
Ledge grab would seriously rule.. especially if you could force flip yourself back up and stuff.
Lol yeah...exactly!! Like Obi-Wan with Darth Maul in TPM.
You know...if it's in the movies - it's gotta be in the game. ;)
Ok yes ledge grabbing would rule. Everyone who wants this in post now or forever hold your peace!
Originally posted by Imperial Jawa
Ok yes ledge grabbing would rule. Everyone who wants this in post now or forever hold your peace!
Yes, this would be a good idea, and I'd like to see it implimented, but....
I'm not one of the moderators of this forum, but I am LFN staff, so I'm asking everybody, please, lets not spam up this thread by requesting ledge grabing, or whatever feature multiple times. There is a good dialogue going on here, and I'd like to keep the "spam" to a minium
(below)edit: No worries Plo :)
It is a must have!!! We need it!
Edit: Opps. Sorry. I posted the same time you did.
hmm...maybe i'll start a new thread to petition for it.....please everyone who wants ledge grabbing (which it looks like are plenty) move to the new thread i'll start....
Petition here (
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95978)
I agree with toonces we dont need people spaming the forums about request for JK3
Okay, well, first off, if I'm going to answer any of the questions, I guess I need to admit that we are, indeed, making this game (should be pretty obvious by now, so no-one should get mad at me for admitting as much). No, it's not a hoax/joke/rumor, no, it's not an expansion pack, it is a full, complete, stand-alone game. And it's called Jedi Knight III right now for lack of a better name, I, personally, would not call it a "sequel" to JK2 since I think a DF/JK game should always be about the Katarns (maybe a true JK3 could be about Kyle and Jan's child, who perhaps shows a particularly strong adeptness with the Force...?) So I wouldn't be surprised if the name doesn't stay "Jedi Knight III" (but who knows). Not that it's not a full game, it's bigger than JK2 in terms of gameplay, content and features, it's just not, in my opinion, the true sequel to JK2. I think that one shouldn't be done for a year or so and should probably use a new engine.
Now, onto questions:
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Since i'm assuming JK3 will face the same issues in terms of singleplayer development maybe include some more workarounds to problems? In JK2 we managed to include new NPCs using extra npc config files. Maybe extend this so we can have new quest/mission-based inventory items?
New inventory items? Hmm... well, that would require us to really make the inventory stuff a lot more externalized than it currently is. Not a totally trivial thing. However, with ICARUS scripting you could easily simulate something like this. Place a misc_model_breakable and have it so that when the player hits a trigger, it removes it, sets a variable, fires off a script, whatever you want - it can affect anything you want it to.
Along these lines, though, I do want to make modding easier. I've already made it easier to add new NPCs and custom sabers of all kinds of configurations, and there may be some other things that will make content mods easier to accomplish... we'll see.
Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ
Maybe have it so you can have interconnected levels that you can go back and forth between, collecting items to solve puzzles in old areas etc. ie making it possible for editors to make Deus Ex style missions.
Again, this isn't trivial, a hub-style interconnectivity between levels is a lot of work. However, we did do this for the expasion pack to Elite Force so, technically, it's still a feature of our game, just one we're not using. I don't know if it still works, but someone could try it (either look at a "Virtual Voyager" map file or just try it - I believe it's just a spawnflag on the target_level_change entity. :)
Originally posted by striderx2048
The game plays in the X-Men world and revolves around the coming-of-age story of Magma, a less known X-Men character (appearing first in New Mutants). The game features 19 Marvel mutant characters from various time periods, including Wolverine, Cyclops, Beast, Nightcrawler etc. The story is written by experienced Marvel writers, among them Joey Casey, Steven Seagle and more.
Oh, yeah, we decided to combine the Star Wars and X-Men licenses, we figured they're both pretty big right now, so what would be bigger? X-Wars! Heh... yeah, that's a bit of a typo, there... :)
Originally posted by Toonces
One question I have is weather or not some type of support could be added for custom, or non-humanoid skeletions? I'm coming completely from an artists perspective, and not a programer, so It may not be possible, but one of the things I always wanted to add was some custom animations for my models. (flowing tenticles, more realistic clothing)
Well, you should already be able to do that. The problem was trying to add animations to the humanoid skeleton. You can make your own skeletons, but rebuilding our skeleton with your animations in them wasn't working. At this point, I'm not sure whether this will be improved in this game, but I promise I'll be looking into it as we get closer to being done. Right now, we're just trying to hit our milestones.
Originally posted by Toonces
Also, any chance of seeing a "ragdoll" type physics system implemented?
That's a definite "maybe". ;)
Mike, you rock :D
Welcome back to the insanity ;)
As long as we're making suggestions/comments: include an objective based game, not unlike UT's Assault mode.
I know that JK2 had an undocumented 'saga' mode, but it was just that, undocumented. Please please please support and even release maps of this type for this new game.
Originally posted by matt-windu
As long as we're making suggestions/comments: include an objective based game, not unlike UT's Assault mode.
I know that JK2 had an undocumented 'saga' mode, but it was just that, undocumented. Please please please support and even release maps of this type for this new game.
We are planning on adding one entirely new MP game type, but we're not discussing it right now...
Mike, you do indeed kick ass... ;)
So any comments on the possibility of ledge-grabbing or implementing SAGA mode into MP?
EDIT: Ooo. A new gametype...sounds great....and btw, will previous maps be usable in JK3 as you see it now?
I agree. The only reason why Saga didn't take off was because the mappers didn't support the format because Saga hadn't taken off. :D
I think the big thing is to fix all the known bugs in the code and try to get LEC to let you guys release patches until the thing is actually bugfree instead of a mostly bugfree state like 1.04. I understand that the legal stuff is a big red tape machine but it's not like you didn't have to fix the bugs in preparation for JK3!
Also, I know that LEC is pushing for a simplistic saber system but it would be nice to have something more involving than the current JK2 system.
Along the same lines, REAL saber collisions in MP is very important. The whole "defensive" saber = big box isn't very realistic or involving. I know it's fixable if you put some work into it (like I am doing on my own). :)
Yes, will previous maps be implemeted in the game? Also, the new maps; are they going to be bigger? better? better FPS playing on them?
Originally posted by CanadianSurfer
Yes, will previous maps be implemeted in the game? Also, the new maps; are they going to be bigger? better? better FPS playing on them?
You should still be able to play previous maps, yes. Though the new game type will, obviously, require new maps.
Will the new maps be bigger? Some, yes, others, probably about the same.
Better? Sure.
Better FPS? Well, if you have a better computer, sure, maybe. But if the map is bigger and better, chances are it won't run any faster than old maps did (unless, like I said, you have a better computer now or you turn down detail settings, etc.)
Along these lines, I'm keeping in mind that a lot of people have made a lot of custom player and saber models and I want to make sure that those are still usable in the new game. Unfortunately, to optimize some things and to add certain features (and to make it more mod-friendly), we did make some changes to the model format. I want to try to make sure we release the details about what model-makers need to do to get their JK2 custom models to work in the new game (including, if necessary, releasing some tools a little early to make it so that modders can have their custom models ready-to-play by the time the game hits the shelves).
And wouldn't it be SAD if it were a little April Fool's joke???
Sorry for intruding, I just need to see what my registry name is here...:D ;) :p
dear god yes. SO YES. I love you guys so much.
The main thing I'm worried about is current JK2 singleplayer projects in the works. (notably my own, which is in its infancy, Sine Nomen's nar shaddaa level (which is amazing.. I love sine), and AKPiggott's equally fantastic Party Crasher. (What else would you expect from Piggott?! :))
Will we be able to a.) port existing JK2 levels to "JK3", and b.) be able to either disable, or at least specify settings for, the player's character, thus allowing us greater control over storytelling?
Oh, and just an offhand question, are you guys using an updated version of sof2map, a new compiler, or the vaunted (and my personal favorite) q3map2? (I'd assume you'd prefer an in-house binary, as it'd give you more control over.. well.. everything...)
I must learn 3ds max, maya, or something, as well as become familiar with scripting languages... definitely going to need to get me a job in a little over a year, and I'm praying to the gaming gods it can be in the industry... *sigh* So much stuff, so little time!
Originally posted by AlzWisHum
I thought I was talking with a fellow sw developer, I was only hoping it wasn't an exploited one. :D Well, probably not exploited, but lets just say it has been tough times in the telecom sector :(
Originally posted by AlzWisHum
I agree with you.
The good thing most people always end up realizing it isn't really worth it, until they find their most productive state of mind, if you know what I mean.
The younger programmers that usually stay up late in their works, are either the ones that are swept away by it's own ideas, or in the second sorry lifestyle you described, with their heads in how cozy their homes are. Now that my fiance and I have a house, there is less time for those late work nights :)
Originally posted by AlzWisHum
But we're not talking with you Raven guys, now back to work! Or there will be no muffins for you. ;) :p Mmmm. Muffins!!
Anyway, cheers so a fellow software developer!
:guiness:
jeez chang....get me all excited......do you expect the system requirements to be the same?
also...will the bots be better?
In the new one, please include bot commands for the different types of gameplay such as CTF.
Can we expect many more maps for exisiting gametypes, especially CTF? JK2 was sorely lacking with just four in CTF.
I want to try to make sure we release the details about what model-makers need to do to get their JK2 custom models to work in the new game (including, if necessary, releasing some tools a little early to make it so that modders can have their custom models ready-to-play by the time the game hits the shelves).
That's excellent to hear, cause I really want to see some maps/mods available in JK3 that people have gotten accustomed to in JK2.
I don't think this is an April Fools joke. The lead programmer just came on and answered many questions. Just cut that stuff out.
Here we go with that ledge-grabbing again.
i'd just like to mention that one of the main things i didn't like about JK2 was the lack of fists!!! JKIII NEEDS fists!!!