Hmmm...no one seems to have really discussed what the bots in MP might be like this time around. I know it's not of much concern to those who play most of their time online...but for those of us with laggy connections, Bot matches are a necessary source of enjoyment.

Now, the reason why I raise this issue is that the bots in JO had some problems - still do, as a matter of fact, and here's an example of why...

http://www.storm.hammer.btinternet.co.uk/ridiculousS.jpg)

BTW...Blackbow is me. Now, the problem with certain maps, notably Nar Shaddaa and Warring Factions, for example, is that the bots are pretty useless at navigating the walkways. When they hit someone coming in the opposite direction, they start bunny-hopping until they fall off. Or they make a jump too far.

This is one element of MP bots that I hope we will see corrected in JA, to alleviate some of the silliness on certain maps.

Either that...or I think certain maps should be tagged as not bot friendly. I mean, I don't mind seeing a bot miss the mark occasionally - that seems more realistic. But when they consistenty jump and fall (suicides), it's a bit silly, not to mention frustrating in Team FFA, when you've hit 19 kills out of 20, and within 5 minutes your down to -10 or something.

Are there any other MP bot issues that people would like to see addressed in JA?

Originally posted by StormHammer
Are there any other MP bot issues that people would like to see addressed in JA? Proabably the biggest issue is that bots simply weren't tough enough. It doesn't take very long to learn how to beat them consistently. I hope they are more challenging this time around. The AI in SP was much better, and I wonder why this intelligence couldn't be ported to MP.

Also, I'd like to be able to specify what weapons are available to each bot. I'd like to specify that stormtroopers can't use lightsabers, and so on. Then you could create battles that seem a little closer to the movies.

To comment on what you were saying about bots and maps, bot routes need to be better in general. One thing I hated about dueling with bots was that they would fight for a bit, and then they would just run around a set pattern in the map. You basically had to chase them to get them to fight.

Good points raised. :thumbsup:

Continuing on the Team FFA aspect...the thing I've also noticed is that the Bots don't really have any team-oriented intelligence. For example, you could be running toward an enemy...and you see your bot team-mate going in the opposite direction.

In UT, you always have like a flanker, who follows you around and 'watches your back', and I miss this kind of thing in JO, so I hope they do a rethink on how bots should behave in team matches, including giving them specific commands so that you can work on some proper strategies.

I know it will never replace having proper human team-mates online...but I think they can still give the bots better behaviour in team situations.

Quite true. A little coordination between units would go a long way to improving the difficulty. Maybe some of this could be moved into regular FFA as well? I know that everyone would be "out for themselves", but what if some bots teamed up on some of the higher scoring players?

A little off topic, but I wish with Team FFA that skins didn't have such drastically different colours from their regular counterparts. Why have a completely blue or red stormtrooper? It takes away from the realism of the game. Surely there is a better way to distinguish between sides without the big colour differences.

Originally posted by Prime
A little off topic, but I wish with Team FFA that skins didn't have such drastically different colours from their regular counterparts. Why have a completely blue or red stormtrooper? It takes away from the realism of the game. Surely there is a better way to distinguish between sides without the big colour differences.

Why off topic? We're discussing bots and everything to do with them aren't we? :) Personally I agree with you...having your character and saber turn red or blue for either team is a little annoying at times - especially considering we get the symbol over the head business as well. It's a bit hard not to tell who you're shooting at when they've got a glowing symbol stuck to the top of their head. :p

I'd like to be able to retain my skin and saber colour...and retain the coloured symbol. Maybe have a coloured belt or something - just a small flash of red or blue on the character up close.

And maybe they should install some safety rails on the walkways - the number of suicides shown above doesn't represent all of them - because they were obviously shooting their way back up to 0 again...

Well one time I was bored out of my mind and decided to fire up a botmatch...

on FFA Nar Streets I focused on using weapons such as thermals and blasters (all varieties), when I came to the conclusion that I was actually getting more bored after an hour I noticed I had 300 kills and only about 20 of them were from pushing people off edges...

I can say this for the bots, they may be rubbish on most maps, especially really confined ones like Raven, but on Nar Streets if i'm only getting 300 kills in an hour they must be doing something right.

They are also very good at using force push to push back projectiles, in this respect their reflexes are annoyingly flawless.

The main problem i've noticed is that they tend to form saber huddles of 5 or more bots which makes them very easy targets for a human player, but not once have I seen a bot launch a flechette barrage at a group of players and walk away with an easy bunch of kills. It seems they are only interested in 1 vs 1 combat, they never take the really big opportunities.

LOL @ pic. :]

Q3 bots weren't particularily smart either, they just had superb accuracy and quick movements. The JK2 bots have the same kind of intelligence as well, although not particularily clever in regards to actually moving around maps which is probably due to the fact that bot routes in JK2 maps probably weren't of the best kind.

If you loaded the same bots in a map like nar streets you would find most of them falling off (if you shot them). This is why you don't find many maps in Q3 that have thing ledges which is a reason to consider working on better map layouts for JK3.

Hopefully, better built maps with better bot routes will solve the problem.

i for one think bots r a must for xbox if u don't have xbox live. i agree with u though the ones in jo were stupid.

Originally posted by StormHammer
especially considering we get the symbol over the head business as well. I remember playing a Team FFA or CTF game and someone was running behind a wall, and all I could see was the big symbol over his head. I was thinking, "oh yeah. That thing was a great idea".

the thing that bugged me about the bots is they never took advantage of their force power like they should
all the light side used was mind trick and all the dark side used was drain lightning and grip (in really predictable ways like was said already)
using push and pull and jump and kick would really help with the realism

when i play against them they are always running away too
they just run their route and hit me when im in the way and thats it
your not a target your an obstacle to get passed it seems

well thats what i can think about now but im sure theres more
they arent horrible or anything but there is lots of room for improvement

Originally posted by StormHammer
Why off topic? We're discussing bots and everything to do with them aren't we? :) Personally I agree with you...having your character and saber turn red or blue for either team is a little annoying at times - especially considering we get the symbol over the head business as well. It's a bit hard not to tell who you're shooting at when they've got a glowing symbol stuck to the top of their head. :p

I'd like to be able to retain my skin and saber colour...and retain the coloured symbol. Maybe have a coloured belt or something - just a small flash of red or blue on the character up close.

And maybe they should install some safety rails on the walkways - the number of suicides shown above doesn't represent all of them - because they were obviously shooting their way back up to 0 again...

try playing a FF team match. or trying to see who is on your team ccross the map. the icon isn't enough. the saber helps because it is bright. but thing is when its going fast and furious, its very hard to tell who is friend or foe. every little bit of color helps

Normally the reason that bots seem to run in the same ways and patterns, is because every time a map is made, you have to tell the bots what to do. Bots always have to think logically, so they always go for the shortest way, or the easiest way, never the way with the least people. There's not much else that they can do... I'd much rather be playing with these bots than playing Pong against their "bot". I don't really care what they do with the bots, because they accomplish their purpose.

Originally posted by Prime
I remember playing a Team FFA or CTF game and someone was running behind a wall, and all I could see was the big symbol over his head. I was thinking, "oh yeah. That thing was a great idea".

Hmmm...yes I can see your point there. It doesn't really allow you to hide from view.

Originally posted by Iblis Reborn
the thing that bugged me about the bots is they never took advantage of their force power like they should
all the light side used was mind trick and all the dark side used was drain lightning and grip (in really predictable ways like was said already)
using push and pull and jump and kick would really help with the realism

Yes, I've noticed that too. They could do a better job of mixing and matching Force powers for each bot character, and ensure they use the full range at their disposal.

Originally posted by Rumor
try playing a FF team match. or trying to see who is on your team ccross the map. the icon isn't enough. the saber helps because it is bright. but thing is when its going fast and furious, its very hard to tell who is friend or foe. every little bit of color helps

I find it hard to tell up close when you've got 5 or 6 bots going at it with lightning flying everywhere. :p But that's just me. I do take your point about distinguishing team-mates at distance. It's somewhat alleviated if you can get your hands on the disruptor rifle and zoom in - it's the only really effective long range weapon anyway, apart from the rocket launcher (as long as they don't see the rockets coming). I think this is another good reason for bringing back the overhead map to the game - so you can see at a glance where your team-mates are positioned. Even a pair of binoculars would help...

Originally posted by Rumor
try playing a FF team match. or trying to see who is on your team ccross the map. the icon isn't enough. the saber helps because it is bright. but thing is when its going fast and furious, its very hard to tell who is friend or foe. every little bit of color helps Can't you identify them by putting the targeter over them? This should bring up who they are. I can't remember if this is really the case, so maybe someone can confirm this. If not, perhaps have it turn red for one team and blue for the other, and then their name just above. To me, the big icon just looks silly and distracting.

Originally posted by Prime
Can't you identify them by putting the targeter over them? This should bring up who they are.

Yep...it does. The crosshair also turns green or red depending on whether they are friend or foe - but when there's a group of them together, it's hard to single one out...

i agree with Iblis Reborn if u. if they fell they wouldn't use force jump or ne thing.

I tried fighting bots a few times. All they do is run backwards.

A few blue lunges or kicks and they're dead...*if* you're able to catch those chickens, that is :D

Some bots seem to have pretty good aim, though... Desann and Luke shot me dead from ~full health with primary fire of the stormtrooper rifle

- while I was in mid-air, jumping! (diagonally from their POW) :eek:

Oh yeah, almost forgot: what the hell is up with bots and those lag- I mean.. force fields? Bots reeeeaallly like force fields. :mad:

Originally posted by Luc Solar
Oh yeah, almost forgot: what the hell is up with bots and those lag- I mean.. force fields? Bots reeeeaallly like force fields. :mad:

LOL Yeah, I noticed that too. You can guarantee every game you see a force field go up...and they really pick some stupid places to activate them...like in the middle of the main area in Bespin, so you can just walk around it. :rolleyes:

i dont about you guys, but i would love to see improvement in the ai, bots are way to easy to kill, and i hardly ever get killed unless i am gained up on with missel launchers

Posted by StormHammer
Yep...it does. The crosshair also turns green or red depending on whether they are friend or foe - but when there's a group of them together, it's hard to single one out...Ah, good point.

Posted by Luc Solar
tried fighting bots a few times. All they do is run backwards. Yep, this is what I was refering to in my first post. Most annoying! :mad:

Originally posted by taekwondo joe
i dont about you guys, but i would love to see improvement in the ai, bots are way to easy to kill, and i hardly ever get killed unless i am gained up on with missel launchers

Being an average player...I find some bots really easy, and some harder. I do die in some saber fights, especially when there's a lot of lightning and drain being used. The Chiss seems tricky sometimes. Overall, though, I think there's a lot of room for AI improvement in bot matches...

Haha yeah the bots can be a pain in the ass only if they use lightning all the way... It's very annoying, desann uses it excessevly! (sp?)

*make bots use character specific weapons

*make not all gun-nuts incredibly tough. lando is nearly invincible whenever i play him

*make bots not run backwards some q3 and ef bots had this problem too...

*make bots use more force powers

*make bots restricted to force use or non-force use more rigidly. why does jan use sabers and the force in mp, yet lando doesn't and nor does the ugnaught?

*why?

*Lando and Kyle are easy to beat

*I run backwards

*Agreed

*Let bots use everything the player can use, the idea is that they can mimic a human player...

lando is eay as cobbler to beat, just do this; pull out your saber, get as close as you possibly can, and watch him get blown away by his own gun, really fast, lando never used the saber, making him easy to beat. now stormhammer, for desann, desann is mostly all lightning, so use force absorb, so when he trys to drain, or fry your butt, it wont work, and you can easaly go for the kill

Has there been any information released about the bots in JA?

Originally posted by Prime
Has there been any information released about the bots in JA?

Nothing, AFAIK. MP in general hasn't really been discussed very much in either articles or interviews, and I can't remember seeing anything that particularly related to bots.

I have to assume that bots are still planned for the MP modes for offline battles...but I don't think it's really been confirmed. Hopefully we'll get a lot more answers to these types of questions once E3 is in full swing.

From what I remember, SP was the focus of most of the previews and media hype before JO as well. I don't remember all that much talk about MP at that time either.

What I hate with bots:

They duel for a while and then they start running backwards using (if Dark) lightning and drain while running.

They always fall.

They're ьber aim is getting on my nerves. I was at the other side of the map (ns_streets) and a bot (Prisoner I think) killed me with the Blaster Rifle's ordinary fire. I was moving at the time :mad: this tend to happen alot.

Light side bots use mindtrick ALL the time, and Dark side bots use lighting, drain and grip...

They just run around, gives me a goodbye swing with their lightsaber (wich I block :p) and continues running.. annoying.

I think the bots should be alot more like the SP NPC's (but please, not like Desann :D), they actually stayed and fought.

Can't think of anything more right now.. but I'm sure there is :D

It's almost impossible to have a good botfight, they just run away so you can't reach them with your lightsaber... And they fall, yes... And they get stuck :mad:

They are soooooo useless!!

The thing that irratates me the most is their accuracy and "intelligence" when it comes to guns. I mean, honestly, they are deadly accurate its not funny. Unless you strafe and dodge, they'll hit you everytime. The other thing that bugs me is their "intelligence". I mean, your up in the sniper boothe on the deathstarm waiting for a target. A bot runs into the hangar turns directly to you, and opens fire! Its terrible how they have a sixth sense and know exactly where you are. In JA, they should be alerted to your presence when you fire apon them.

Well they suck with sabers (doh, cause thats what I like playing with) but with a blaster rifle in their hands you better watch out. They are so bad with sabers it's silly.. but on the other hand they're so good with blasters thats it's silly... bah!

The thing that irratates me the most is their accuracy and "intelligence" when it comes to guns. I mean, honestly, they are deadly accurate its not funny. Unless you strafe and dodge, they'll hit you everytime. The other thing that bugs me is their "intelligence". I mean, your up in the sniper boothe on the deathstarm waiting for a target. A bot runs into the hangar turns directly to you, and opens fire! Its terrible how they have a sixth sense and know exactly where you are. In JA, they should be alerted to your presence when you fire apon them.

I couldnt agree more..

I was playing on ns_streets, I was on a high place ready to snipe when this bot comes in my sight, he emediately turn up and fire.. all hits... me = dead... I mean c'mon, its like they have a helmet on with a perfect targetting system... silly.

Originally posted by Izzy
The thing that irratates me the most is their accuracy and "intelligence" when it comes to guns. I mean, honestly, they are deadly accurate its not funny. Unless you strafe and dodge, they'll hit you everytime. The other thing that bugs me is their "intelligence". I mean, your up in the sniper boothe on the deathstarm waiting for a target. A bot runs into the hangar turns directly to you, and opens fire! Its terrible how they have a sixth sense and know exactly where you are. In JA, they should be alerted to your presence when you fire apon them.

I have to agree with that sentiment. They're behaviour isn't random enough, and they are far too accurate with guns, especially when you are moving. You don't see many human players with that consistent level of accuracy.

And as for awareness...they seem to know where you are even when they can't see you. I've had them try to shoot me through walls a couple of times, although maybe that's just a glitch. They certainly need to work on making the bot behaviour a bit more realistic, so if you're hiding out of view they don't just turn towards you, and they're accuracy needs to be toned down, while their movement/dodging and melee combat needs to be beefed up a bit.

Let me get this straight... people are complaining about bots because they force them to DODGE in order to avoid getting shot!?

Heck, even my accuracy is better than the bot's I can hit a moving target at the top opposite end of Nar Streets from the bottom with the bryar, and my accuracy is poor in comparison to most people i've played. Honestly if you aren't going to bother evading shots, how can you possibly justify complaining that bots are too accurate?

The bot "6th sense" is just their version of force seeing, it sounds to me like the complaints are about the bots being TOO human...

Human players uses all sorts of methods of locating targets:

- actually seeing someone
- force seeing and pre-emptive shots
- listening with things called ears
- looking for tell-tale saber glow on the level architecture.

The bots are rubbish because they have terrible accuracy, i've never known them to lead a target. Its the same in most games unfortunately, if you keep moving in all possible directions a bot doesn't stand a chance regardless of their programmed accuracy.


I was playing on ns_streets, I was on a high place ready to snipe when this bot comes in my sight, he emediately turn up and fire.. all hits... me = dead... I mean c'mon, its like they have a helmet on with a perfect targetting system... silly.


I've seen this happen dozens of times from both perspectives with human players. Its actually one of my tricks to pretend that I haven't seen a sniper until i'm in a position to suddenly turn around and shoot.

i got something for u, if you get hit, like you say, why dont you draw your saber!!!!!!!!!!!! yes i do find it hard sniping, but i find it ahrd vs. humans as well, all you see is your target, you dont know if some one is right there waiting to pounce and kill you. maybe its just me, but bots useualy dont run, i kill them to fast, try that

I've seen this happen dozens of times from both perspectives with human players. Its actually one of my tricks to pretend that I haven't seen a sniper until i'm in a position to suddenly turn around and shoot.

Well, its not that he killed me that I'm annoyed over, its that he pops up and its impossible that he could have seen me (he was looking sraight forward) then he turns my way and fires a couple of blasts, all hit. The thing is, he just looked up and shot, a human player would at least have to put the crosshair on the target, but nooooo, the bots have their crosshair on the target the mili second they look up. They never look up when theres no one around, but when theres someone there, they "feel" it (besides, if the bot would have used seing, he still has to look up to see me).

I've found bots to be weak all the way around, whether they use guns or lightsaber. When I first got the game, dueling bots took some practice, but like most people I was able to beat them consistently in a short amount of time.

I only use bots for no Force duels, but even that is pretty rare. Having bots that are a challenge and have convincing AI (even like singleplayer), then that would do wonders for the game.

can't we all just agree the bots sucked in JO, and they need to get better!(i'm not trying to flame on u prime)

I think they certainly need to be better in saber combat, but they should also be a bit more like a human player with guns.

That hey have good accuracy dont bother me, but they're "6'th sense" when someone is around is just silly. I was really high up, no way he could have seen me, he comes into my sight (he had his side against me), turns up, fires a couple of blasts... dead. It's like they know exactly where I stood before they turned up to look.. and they never turn up when theres no one there..

Yeah, bots pretty much suck.

It's not that they are running backwards, it's that they've already decided to move to the next waypoint before turning to it. They ought to have their turning time tuned. They might want to stop at a key waypoint and look around a corner or something.

As someone who has mapped and coded, it makes sense to me that the problem with bots can be fixed - they can be tough, but for some reason aren't.

For example, where you are on a map is held on the server - so is the bot. The bot should have such an advantage - but they don't.

I agree with the Bot-Type'ing' - they need to have a plan when they start playing, just like a person. The need to have a skill - something they know they like to do - they should be able to tell where the weapons are, for Jimmy's sake - I know that *I* do.

If they are a sniper, they better grab the closest weapon and make way to the sniper rifle (er... disruptor) - they also need to learn to use secondary fire modes on weapons.

Originally posted by Blademaster_109
can't we all just agree the bots sucked in JO, and they need to get better!(i'm not trying to flame on u prime) I agree! And I didn't take it as a flame :)

Right now, the best way to have a duel against AI is to load a map into SP and spawn a couple of Reborn. You can even spawn a few Jedi to give you a little help...

Originally posted by Prime
Right now, the best way to have a duel against AI is to load a map into SP and spawn a couple of Reborn. You can even spawn a few Jedi to give you a little help...

Yeah...but we shouldn't have to do that, and I hope we don't have to do that in JA.

Anyway...another thing has occurred to me while I was starting up yet another bot match recently. While I like the ability to be able to select which bots I can fight against...I think we should also be able to enable a random system for bot selection, so that each time a new level loads, the bots you get to fight are randomised. I think this could go some way to making bot matches more interesting, because you won't know who you'll be fighting next. That's not to say they should do away with being able to choose specific bots...just adding another option to randomise them

Of course, the other thing I'd love to be able to do with bots is go in and change their Force powers, combat styles, favourite weapons, behaviours, etc., in a similar way to Unreal Tournament. That would rock.

Originally posted by StormHammer
Yeah...but we shouldn't have to do that, and I hope we don't have to do that in JA.Agreed. It would be nice to be able to do it through a more user friendly interface.

Originally posted by StormHammer
Anyway...another thing has occurred to me while I was starting up yet another bot match recently. While I like the ability to be able to select which bots I can fight against...I think we should also be able to enable a random system for bot selection, so that each time a new level loads, the bots you get to fight are randomised. I think this could go some way to making bot matches more interesting, because you won't know who you'll be fighting next. That's not to say they should do away with being able to choose specific bots...just adding another option to randomise them It might be kind of neat if the game would be more likely to pick certain bots depending on the map. For example, you might be more likely to encounter stormtroopers on a Bespin map, or rodians on a Nar Shaddaa map.

Originally posted by StormHammer
Of course, the other thing I'd love to be able to do with bots is go in and change their Force powers, combat styles, favourite weapons, behaviours, etc., in a similar way to Unreal Tournament. That would rock. Definitely. Perhaps you could even save settings, so you could just load up a rodian sniper, or gran hand-to-hand fighter.

The fact that bots sucked should be an indicator of the amount of gameplay the designers actually put in; however, bots in this type of game can only go so far. I mean, it's not like ut ig where godlike bots are actually godlike. There are just too many variables.

I agree, bots are an important part of the game, both for filling out smaller games, and for people with laggy (or even no internet) connections.

They are also invaluable for training, messing around, and doing stuff that would bore or annoy human players. ; )

Two thing that were SORELY MISSING from JK2 with the bots were:

Bots cannot accept Saber Challenges.
(thus the only way to duel a bot is in Duel Mode) It would also be cool to see bots duel one another. ; ) A big deal if you can't play online, or if nobody will duel you. This option could be turned on or off.

Bots cannot be given "Orders" in team/CTF games like they could in UT and Quake3, etc.

Thus anybody who's team is half bots or has more bots than human players is doomed against a competent human team. The bots do whatever they want, following predictable patterns. Ordering them to "defend" while you attack or "cover me" rather than ignoring you as if its a deathmatch would be really nice. The options where there in the engine, the Raven team just didn't test them for JK2. So far nobody has gotten them to work, so I'm assuming they're just broken in JK2.

I'd love to see that fixed in a patch btw. But JA needs to have this, desperately.


Other than that, adding more "levels of difficulty" and bot personalities (a very cool idea in JK2) would make it very cool. How about some characters that are more "human-like" (ie: they use sabers AND force AND guns based on what the situation calls for?)... it was too much of a "sabers+force" and "guns+explosives" dichotomy between the bot characters. And at Jedi Master level, many of the bots were still very easy to overcome. How about some "Godlike" bots? ; )

The only map that the bots seemed to be any good at was the Bespin map (the one everybody played to death in FFA).

Of course once you learned the game and got good, they were a cinch to slaughter wholesale there as well.

Originally posted by Kurgan
They are also invaluable for...and doing stuff that would bore or annoy human players. ; ) Apparently most people don't use bots, since there is plenty of people that are doing things online that bore and annoy human players. :)