Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
Are you saying all of those games released the SP source code (I know we did, eventually, for EF, but don't know about any of the others)? Most of those, I imagine, are content mods with heavy scripting. People can do the same with JK2.

Believe me, I'm not taking an anti-mod stance, here, I just don't think that releasing our SP code would have been a great idea. Especially since games with a strong theme like EF and JK2 generally don't get heavily modded. Most mods are for games with a more generic "flavor" and the mods are usually heavily-themed (think the Star Wars, Simpsons and Aliens mods for Doom, Quake, etc.) Raven games (for whatever reason), just don't have a history of being heavily modded, even when we do release the source code. Ideally, yes, it would have been nice to have more externalized data, but if it's between that and finishing the actual game features by the release date, I imagine we'd be expected to finish the game... :/

Many of the others either released game source, had lots of externalized data, or were like DF and JK where nothing was in a compiled format and could be easily understood by amatuers.

I don't at all expect you guys to release any source code for SP, only some more externalized data so we can get some more freedom with our stuff. I don't know how you guys are coding your stuff, but I know it's not hard to parse a file in C and pull out a value for a variable... I just think even something small like that could go a long way. I know you guys are pressed for time probably, it has appeared over the years that LEC has tried to be release date Nazis, but we're just asking for the best you can do. :)

Oh, and that's excellent news you will be using Q3Map2!

I'd still like to see my FAKK2 styled combat system sometime worked into a game. It requires ragdoll physics and nearly perfect polygonal hit detection and more advanced animation keyframing and smoothing. Maybe in a few years it'll be possible on the AMD Athlonathon 9000+ and the Pentium VI. ;)

Alright, I have two questions.

1) I checked the Lucasarts site to see if there was a announcement about JKIII(They usually get it right away), but there wasn't. Does anyone know if there will be one, and a official site for JKIII also?

2) Will there be different music in JKIII instead of the classic trilogy music we always hear in games? I mean, why not music from Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace?

That's about it. Let me know what you think. :)

(P.S. I'm not new here. I was here before, but I felt like changing my username. I'm no one you know in particular.)

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Student of the totally insane Yoda on crack that plays with balls :yodaball:

Originally posted by Emon
I'd still like to see my FAKK2 styled combat system sometime worked into a game. It requires ragdoll physics and nearly perfect polygonal hit detection and more advanced animation keyframing and smoothing. Maybe in a few years it'll be possible on the AMD Athlonathon 9000+ and the Pentium VI. ;)
Uh, I'm working on the polygonal hit detection. It's mostly working. :) The polygonal hit detection is in place but the animations don't 100% match server <-> client side. I'm working on that.

But why would you need ragdoll physics for a FAKK2 style of combat?

Originally posted by C'jais
There's no point in even make a single saber an option


Actually...while you have a good point there, I really don't make much use of red stance and backstabbing. They're not as fast and furious...two of the things that makes saber combat what I like best. :) But balance...half good, half bad. :)

[edit] I won't be happy if there isn't single sword. But I also won't be happy without dual bladed lightsabers...ESPECIALLY IN SINGLE PLAYER!! ;) In fact, not only should WE as the players be able to use a lightstaff...but so should the enemies!

Originally posted by Dark Cloak
I really don't make much use of red stance and backstabbing. They're not as fast and furious

The Backstab was the most popular move in JK2, I hope to see it in JK3 as well. Don't say it wasn't fast, you had to actually know how to use it.

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's nifty. I KNOW how to use it. I used it to win the duels I won when I first played JK2 online. It was kinda like I was using Iaido. Or something...yeah. ;) But I'd just sidestep, swivel and backstab. Easy. The red stance, on the other hand...was cool for eye candy...but otherwise...

i hated Jk2s saber fighting technics, dont get me wrong i liked finally being able to handle one in many ranges but the moves they did where like nothing from the movies

And haven't you noticed that some of the biggie sites like GameSpy or GameSpot haven't said a word about it? IGN and a couple of others had brief blurbs and summaries from the Gamestar article.

Originally posted by razorace
Uh, I'm working on the polygonal hit detection. It's mostly working. :) The polygonal hit detection is in place but the animations don't 100% match server <-> client side. I'm working on that.

But why would you need ragdoll physics for a FAKK2 style of combat?

I meant much more accurate polygonal hit detection that what is capable in JO.

The idea behind rogdoll physics would be that it could create the saber rebounds and stuff on the fly. You wouldn't need an animation for every way a saber could hit. Everything would be more dependant on the current situation. Your velocity, the velocity of your lightsaber, position of the enemy, etc. The FAKK2 part is just the style I'd use, e.g. a gun and a saber in each hand.

"The Backstab was the most popular move in JK2, I hope to see it in JK3 as well. Don't say it wasn't fast, you had to actually know how to use it."


Backstab doesn't take ANY skill at all...and it's the cheapest move too...don't even get me started on BS

I agree with KingPin... The Lightsaber fighting looked too much like REAL sword fighting in my opinion (but of course a lot more unpractical and acrobatic).

I especially disliked the Heavy stance. We never see sabers moving that slow in the movies and it just makes little logic in the sense that lightsabers are extreemly light weapons. For a lightsaber to inflict more damage and break blocks better it would make sense for FAST attacks to me more effective, not purposely slow attacks. Also, I hated the way Heavy vs Heavy lightsaber battles were engaged... It seemed too much like jousting. I think most people would agree with me that a light versus light battle is far more enjoyable to either watch or participate in than a heavy versus heavy battle

I think they should really watch the EP1 lightsaber battle over and over again until the developers can emulate something that moves somewhat similar to that. Although I personally thought the ESB lightsaber duel had the coolest moves, I think the one in EP1 had the best variety, and would be best to observe.

Really though, I think the main thing that is preventing movie like lightsaber battles is the auto blocking. With Auto block people are afraid of getting hit -- which causes the jousting mindset -- they don't want to get hit since they can't completely control wether they block the attack or not. If the developers made a system where it's a GOOD idea to intercept an attack with a block YOU control (ie; a manual block) than most fights will be up close, and movie like since there's less of a reason to hit and run.

Originally posted by AKPiggott
Mike, any chance you could keep a lot more elements soft-coded for us SP editors? It'll be great if the player model, saber colour and other little bits could be modified in some sort of DAT file or through ICARUS.

I concur! Although I assume that because we can (apparently) configure the saber color of our jedi in the normal game, that SP saber color is probably (or rather, hopefully) much easier to change, I hope the same is true for the SP player model...

You guys need to relax... we barely know what's going into this game yet. There isn't even an offical site for it yet!

I'm sure LEC and Raven have ackknowledged and understand their mistakes. They wouldn't be making a sequel so soon unless they didn't want to correct them in a sequel.

Originally posted by Belgirion
Backstab doesn't take ANY skill at all...and it's the cheapest move too...don't even get me started on BS

Dude do you know how many people left because of the 1.04 patch? Over half, you know why? Because people liked it.

"Like OMG OMG don't get me started about BS!!!"

Originally posted by CanadianSurfer
Dude do you know how many people left because of the 1.04 patch? Over half, you know why? Because people liked it.

"Like OMG OMG don't get me started about BS!!!"

true i was one of those people who left, but ended up coming back

1) I thing ragdoll would be nice.
2) I think that i should be able to use or atleast convert my old maps in jk3.
3) I think u sould have a single as well as double and doublebladed light sabers.
4) Saber combat should be more tha just "canned" prefabricated moves.
5) WE NEED A MIGGET YODA !!!!!! I love fighting against larger characters with the yoda model in it's small state it has a ver ep2 feel and to me is very exciting in combat.
6) weapons that fit more into the movies.
7) make push and pull less effective like to where u have to aim directly at the person cause ui'm tired of getting pushed and pulled off of ledges. also grip whores are really annoying.


EDIT
8) OMG can't belive i forgot to say JK3 NEEDS BETTER BOT SUPPORT. The bots in Jk2 sucked and whenever i try makeing them jedi masters or something i saw no improvement in their skillz.
9) also bot routing in jk3 needs to be easier to implement walking around a map and pressing a button is very time consuming

Originally posted by CanadianSurfer
Dude do you know how many people left because of the 1.04 patch? Over half, you know why? Because people liked it.

First, many people left because they thought 1.04 nerfed saber combat altogether, and just gave up because they thought 1.02 was the best.

Second, "over half" is a total bull**** statistic you made up on the spot.

Originally posted by Emon
I meant much more accurate polygonal hit detection that what is capable in JO.

The idea behind rogdoll physics would be that it could create the saber rebounds and stuff on the fly. You wouldn't need an animation for every way a saber could hit. Everything would be more dependant on the current situation. Your velocity, the velocity of your lightsaber, position of the enemy, etc. The FAKK2 part is just the style I'd use, e.g. a gun and a saber in each hand.
Well, the most of the hit detection you see in baseJK2 MP isn't polygon collision. You only ever see polygon collisions when you use g_ghoul2sabercollisions AND it's only for body hits, not saber on saber stuff. Plus, the animations are screwed up to a degree so even that seems to work poorly.

I got some demo if you're interested in see what's possible with the ghoul2 system in JK2. The only problem is that Raven barely used it in MP. :)

As for "rag doll" physics, they're useless for saber combat. Rag doll means simulation of a rag doll (limp/no muscles) not a saber combater. The most advanced system for body simulation (for games, that I know of ) is the UT2k3 karma engine, which took years to make and in a state-of-the-art engine built with Karma in mind.

Sure, dynamic on-the-fly physics are possible but very, very complex because you have to simulate the range of motions, break strength, muscle strength/speed/etc. Plus, the hardware requirements would be insane. Basically, it's very possible, but I wouldn't expect something like that anytime soon.

All I heard was bla bla bla. Shut up

i agree, the bots in jo suck, we need better saber/gun combat too. oh, and there has 2 be counters for the force powers.
rag doll must must, and killa, u spelled midget wrong... :p:D i agree with map maker, a: because he makes a good point. B: i told him 2 type some of this stuff :D :p

1) I thing ragdoll is a must have.
So you're saying you wouldn't buy JK3 otherwise? Let's just say you're not going to have to worry about saving up for it then. :)
All I heard was bla bla bla. Shut up
Wow. That was a intelligent post. :P

Originally posted by razorace
Well, the most of the hit detection you see in baseJK2 MP isn't polygon collision. You only ever see polygon collisions when you use g_ghoul2sabercollisions AND it's only for body hits, not saber on saber stuff. Plus, the animations are screwed up to a degree so even that seems to work poorly.

I got some demo if you're interested in see what's possible with the ghoul2 system in JK2. The only problem is that Raven barely used it in MP. :)

As for "rag doll" physics, they're useless for saber combat. Rag doll means simulation of a rag doll (limp/no muscles) not a saber combater. The most advanced system for body simulation (for games, that I know of ) is the UT2k3 karma engine, which took years to make and in a state-of-the-art engine built with Karma in mind.

Sure, dynamic on-the-fly physics are possible but very, very complex because you have to simulate the range of motions, break strength, muscle strength/speed/etc. Plus, the hardware requirements would be insane. Basically, it's very possible, but I wouldn't expect something like that anytime soon.

I meant really good detection not feasable in SP or MP.

You're right about ragdoll, that isn't what I meant. I meant having physics calculated for each vertex. Yes, it would take a ****load of processing power, which is why I said Athlonathan 9000+ ;)

By the way, the Havok physics engine in DX:IW owns the Karma physics engine. And they're on the same engine! :)

Originally posted by Emon
I meant really good detection not feasable in SP or MP.
Have you even seen the Ghoul2 tracing function?! That's perpolygon detection! We just gotta update the system to support it well.

The only possible problem is that the saber system is only checked at 20 fps (simed 40 fps with interplotation) and we can't really change that without risking stablity. However, 20fps seems to work pretty good in my experiments as long as the ghoul2 attack traces are a bit larger than the actual ghoul2 saber blade. Still, it's WAY better than the standard MP saber "box battle" system. :)

Okay, now get it to work with per-vertex physics. ;)

Eh, I'd rather go ahead and agree with Emon about ragdoll physics. I don't think they'd be useless at all. He's probably right about those types of physics...ragdoll...creating sabre rebounds and whatnot on the fly. It WOULD make things more interesting, and also significantly lower the COUNT of animations needed in the game. You could also use it to toss enemies around like...well...RAGDOLLS!! :) :)
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I'm off to dye my hair crimson, now. If I don't post in 40 minutes, someone come in after me! ;)

Originally posted by Emon
Okay, now get it to work with per-vertex physics. ;)
Now that's something that above my abilities. Sides, I don't think Raven could do it for JK3 either. Assuming they want a release date sometime in the next couple of years. :)

Dark Cloak, my idea of the complex physics isn't what's wrong, it was the use of the term "ragdoll physics" since that's supposed to be for ragdoll models when the player is dead.

You know what would be cool is to have the lightsaber actually look like its melting the wall. Better then the JK2 saber wall melting anyway.

Until I see official word from Lucasarts.com I won't believe it. I think it is all internet rumors and fan speculation brought on by a German magazine who has no connection to Lucasarts at all. Lucasarts has kept hush hush about developments and new projects. First time you will officially hear it is usually on www.lucasarts.com). The official star wars video games website. Plus, they definitely haven't released any information on Lucasarts Insider, their official online newsletter. It is just like the Star Wars PC game, Galactic Battlegrounds 2. Lucasarts hasn't mentioned anything about that or Rogue Squadron 3.

Why would a German magazine be the only one with the article, etc.? I haven't seen any U.S. gaming magazines that have printed anything on it. I think this is made up by the German magazine writers and editors. There is no way it could come out that fast. It takes around 2 years to make a video game because they have to make sure there aren't bugs in it.

I think you missed the confirmation from one of the Raven programmers. :)

I think a small, 'hole' should be left in the features to the point coders can add there own stuff that would otherwise take to long in the game development process to be sorted out. Grass and sand being blown about from a walker moving would take long amounts of time for a class B or C feature. Instead, by leaving a gap that coders can add, not to the engine but a modding source code, what isn't able to be finished before the producer rips the stuff out of your hands can later beimplanted by the community. I don't believe any game has had this and you'll always want to rack up those 'first' in features/engine capibilities.

I want to still follow the storyline of the other 3 Dark Forces series. Kyle Katarn and the Empire are essestial for Jedi Knight III or I would not buy it. I have heard ridiculous storylines about it not using Kyle Katarn or the baddies aren't the Empire they are the Vong from the New Jedi Order series. I just think it wouldn't be Jedi Knight with out in the empire.

Originally posted by Emon
Dark Cloak, my idea of the complex physics isn't what's wrong, it was the use of the term "ragdoll physics" since that's supposed to be for ragdoll models when the player is dead.

Nooo no babe. I wasn't trying to say you were wrong. I was agreeing with you about what you said...physics creating saber rebounds and such; not needing an animation for each way a saber hit. ;) I know about the rest of what ragdoll physics is. The ragdoll, rather...speaking of which...*cough* Havoc Engine! *cough*

joesdomain, i recommend you go back and read ChangKhan[Raven]'s posts.

juat because i "think" it is essential doesn't mean i'm not buying the game. As son as i can get to the store when it comes out i'm getting it. I just always thought it would look cool when u saw a dead body to pull it and it slam into the pillar behind u and u hear the body crack as it hits the pillar and u hear bone crunching as the limp body raps halfway around the pillar them falls to the floor in a lifeless heap. Or shootin it with a missle and watch it fly across the room in 3 ot 4 pieces. or shoot it with a blaster and watch a bolt hit the shoulder and the body would bounce back a bit. But i'm guessing i better not get my hopes up cause technology that advanced probably won't be coming out for a while (well the part with the hitting of the shoulder atleast:rolleyes: )

Yeah, that would actually be pretty cool...if not a tad too realistic. HOWEVER...there could be a violence meter. You could tone the violence down...accept for the fact that Star Wars isn't a hack and slash universe filled with gore and guts. I want to make a computer game like that...a vampire/demon hunting simulator...eh...but I'll never do it. Don't know enough. I'm already 20 and I don't know enough programming. ;)

Well, I have finally taken time to read the announcement on ravengames.com and I guess it seems legimate. Although they might be the developer. I still stick to Lucasarts word over anything else since they are in charge of anything Star wars game.

Originally posted by map maker 101
juat because i "think" it is essential doesn't mean i'm not buying the game. When you say "essential" and "must have" that implies that you think the game isn't worth it without those features. I suggest you change your wording or you'll be sending the wrong mesage to Raven and LEC. :)

You see, I believe that it would be a beautiful sort of...tac-on to the engine for JK3. But that doesn't mean the game won't kick complete, utter butt just because it might not be in there. Hell...I don't NEED ragdoll physics in a game to like it. It'd just be really cool. ;) Plenty of games, Jedi Knight II for example...don't NEED ragdoll physics to be amazing. It'd just be nice. HOWEVER...if implementing physics code like that would push back the date of a game that I'm fairly sure will be awesome with OR without R.P...well that would just suck. ;)

[edit] And since I just read my post and realized it made NO sense...I'm going to bed because I'm obviously too tired to think. Nini.

Hey ChangKhan[RAVEN]
will you guys be throwing any goodies in there for the Roleplayers of JKO. a lot of people here on LF and other places shun on RPers and I dont blame them cause there is a lot of whiners who try to enforce their RPG ways on a FFA server which I dont think is right,but If we stay on our little RPG servers and enjoy the game you made for us then there is no harm done. So with that being Said Id really like to see this NPC system be less bugged. If possible could we choose what models,weapons,our NPCs have and give them personalities? similar to ICARUS scripting in SP but for MP. I know this could cause a lot of crap on Regular servers thats why you make it only cheat protected or something similar Im sure the Modders of the community can make an RPG Based mod using JKIII anyway but wed like the NPC things a little more like SP or Bots,but without taking up clientspace. This way we can spawn patrol stormtroopers, civilians who walk around,stuff like that.

Also could you somehow allow the Modelers of JKO to be able to make new Animations for JKO. We all would love to see new Emotes and diff types of animations.

One Last thing could you NOT have the 16 weapon limit in this one that way we can create more weapons and maybe even a weapon class system for RPG purposes....if not that then maybe make it like JK where you can give a gun a diff mode or something where it points to a diff model path sound path dmaage path etc.etc just for us RPers oh yeah are you going to be having that character customizer being used in MP?

One last question can you guys implement some other forms of melee combat such as punches,throws,kicks,and other martial arts type stuff. And Make the Hands a Weapon too so we can get in Drunken Fistfights!

Dark Cloak:

I agree it would be awesome. It's just not practical for a game with a less than 18 month especially with a non-engine builder project (IE a team that's planning on selling the engine can affort to do more special engine stuff like rag doll physics)

How about staying on the topic of JK3. JK3 is a first person shooter, not a roleplaying game...

Originally posted by Ronin_Medjai
Hey ChangKhan[RAVEN]
will you guys be throwing any goodies in there for the Roleplayers of JKO. a lot of people here on LF and other places shun on RPers and I dont blame them cause there is a lot of whiners who try to enforce their RPG ways on a FFA server which I dont think is right,but If we stay on our little RPG servers and enjoy the game you made for us then there is no harm done. So with that being Said Id really like to see this NPC system be less bugged. If possible could we choose what models,weapons,our NPCs have and give them personalities? similar to ICARUS scripting in SP but for MP. I know this could cause a lot of crap on Regular servers thats why you make it only cheat protected or something similar Im sure the Modders of the community can make an RPG Based mod using JKIII anyway but wed like the NPC things a little more like SP or Bots,but without taking up clientspace. This way we can spawn patrol stormtroopers, civilians who walk around,stuff like that.

Also could you somehow allow the Modelers of JKO to be able to make new Animations for JKO. We all would love to see new Emotes and diff types of animations.

One Last thing could you NOT have the 16 weapon limit in this one that way we can create more weapons and maybe even a weapon class system for RPG purposes....if not that then maybe make it like JK where you can give a gun a diff mode or something where it points to a diff model path sound path dmaage path etc.etc just for us RPers oh yeah are you going to be having that character customizer being used in MP?

One last question can you guys implement some other forms of melee combat such as punches,throws,kicks,and other martial arts type stuff. And Make the Hands a Weapon too so we can get in Drunken Fistfights! that, sir, is what a mod is for!

Except lightsabers just cut through pretty much anything, so the power of the blow shouldn't make a lot of difference...

I said single sabers should break DEFENSE better not cut through flesh better..... :rolleyes:

Hey, while you're at it, why don't you guys go impliment an entire MMORPG system, Kung Fu combat, Matrix slowmo in multiplayer that defies the laws of physics, and several thousand emotes and new useless animations! Maybe it would set the release date back a couple of days but it would be worth it for us ole' RPGers!!

:rolleyes:

Mr. ChangKhan[RAVEN]


Something I think a ton of fans of this game would love to see in a JK3 game would be better saber control and a co-operative version of the single player campaign. It would be great even if there was a team play MP version where the actual players used stealth, speed, trickery, to get into a base, shut it down ect. Sorta like TFC for Half-Life. Something I've missed playing JK2 was the diversity of the Jedi's, would like to see some specialize abit in certain areas. And saber control is a must, I'm sure it's a difficult area to create, but please improve on this somehow. Thanks and keep up the great games and great work!!!

I still say we should get something with a NJO flavor to it. Am I the only one that thinks this way? Does anyone other than myself read those books?

Gloworm, I'm pretty sure they said somewhere that cooperative gameplay wasn't going to be in.

On the other hand, I think Chang mentioned something about classes.