I have a lot to comment on this subject but I'll hold my tongue since this the stuff I'm working on for MotF. :)

However, Blood is correct about the lack of deflected bolts back at the attacker. But it should also be noted that Jedi normally deflect bolts at OTHER opponents instead of right back at the attacker.

Bloodriot you have some interesting points. The blocking as it stands however, is the limit to what I feel will work 'THIS' melee dueling system. A time window approach to blocking is definately even more advanced, but with jediknights quick game like animation and lack of opposiing accleration, realism, and blunt physics a system of this nature is just not practical.

Movie battles has introduced the pinnacle of jediknight dueling, far beyond that of promod, and vastly superior to the base package. The dueling requires more skill in blocking and time fighting is a big part of the match.

The movie like effect is further induced by the ghoul2sabercollision cvar being turned on in its introduction with mid animation breaking parries and much more epic looking duels. Furthermore this extends skillful, or equal sided parries to allow a larger window of time for the player to appreciate what is happening.

You must truly play movie battles, and appreciate what it has to offer! To do any less is ludicrous, and to propose further improvement on this already sizeable bound is even more so. This is not to say progression is impossible, but that one must understand the dynamics of the game in conjunction to modification.

Appreciate the moviebattles, and ghoul2. It is easily the best melee combat ever.

(Where did you get build 4?)

Just to elaborate on my point, I refer you to a post I had made a short while ago, this may shed some light on the situation...



Ok well I opened this thread to discuss what this new sequel/expansion should be, what was done right in jk2 and what should be changed for the next sequel/expansion.

Now, I'am not trying to brag but I really feel my suggestions are key points that can make a great game into an unbelievable game.

Before I begin I would ask that all posters in this thread limit their ideas to (significant core changes) (i.e. no fix the damn door in yavin). THANKS.

|= [THE CHANGES REQUIRED ]======================================

============
| SABER COMBAT |
============

This is probably the biggest area of change that could make the game simply fantastic. The existing combat was definitely a huge step up from Dark Forces 2, stances were a fairly creative idea and helped the game. Another leap in combat is necessary.

The biggest drawback to RAVEN’s saber system is they felt it should be ‘intuitive’ in other words a new player should be able to pick it up right away. In fact, an actual raven employee said on XGR, if you want to master the system you can do that, but if you just want to mash the buttons then its ok for that too, its very intuitive. For me intuitive means simple, basic and something with lack of depth. Which I feel is the current state of your saber combat.

The combat system I imagine is one where the saber is fluid and organic not mechanical. The saber once swung can be manipulated in almost unlimited fashion with movement of the mouse. This will allow for an unaccountable number of types of attacks and widens the scope of saber combat greatly. To complement this huge core change would be a manual blocking system. The system would be fully manual yielding no auto blocking. Creating effective saber combats with this system could definitely be difficult, one method of allowing this to work is possibly having a jedi sense level where faint indicators project the region in which a saber will pass moments before it does to help allow the player to react to another individual’s saber.

PARRYING
This can be done quite well with the above system, as long as it works around momentum. Saber battling should often have one party who is mainly attacking while the other is defending and a switch in roles. Only a few times should you have individuals both attacking and in essence defending.

============
| MOVEMENT |
============

To follow the movies more closely, and to make battling more exciting movement in jediknight needs a large revamp. Instead of being quite fps like, it should be more delicate, and intricate. Some solid suggestions follow.

During saber combat individuals are able to move left and right in a very short time, this leads to a cheap fps game/feel not suitable for a type of combat game like jedi outcast. Instead by the same change as above, making the stepping fluid and organic (have movement slower, and better blended) would bring a much greater feel of true saber battling, and movie/real life movement.

One key here is making movement slower relative to the world and relative to other individuals.


============
| THE FORCE |
============

The force powers in jedi outcast were fairly well done and a step in the right direction, except for their frequent usage, and commonality. To bring JO to a more movie like feel (less of a cheesy spammy feel), it would be ideal to make forces much stronger, but have them all proportionally cost much more force. An example of the outcomes of this type of change might be less frequent force jumping (similar to movies), grip should be powerful enough to kill an enemy but should do so slowly, and appear to torcher the enemy, however the tradeoff would be the jedi performing the grip would only be able to walk slowly and be exposed to attack.

============
| THE SABER |
============

THE BIG FACTOR IS DAMAGE!
The saber is a deadly weapon, a touch of it can mean instant dismemberment and cauterization of afflicted body parts. However in JEDI OUTCAST developers have made the same mistake as many other fps games. They reduced the deadliness of the weapon in hopes of preserving game play. This only takes away from game play. As long as a new complex combat system is in place the saber should be lethal. Swinging the saber through any part of body should yield instant dismemberment and death of the player, but connecting a clean strike will be difficult if your opponent is equally skilled.

The saber looks fairly convincing, and with modifications even better. Maintaining a movie like feel would simply involve change the core glow slightly to represent a straight tube rather then a pointed end (i.e. ep1 – 2).

============
| GRAPHICS |
============

This is a fairly obvious and self-explanatory category. Get out of quake world and up the game technology. Be it an existing engine or new one, making graphics more appealing to the player is the only goal here.

============
| ANIMATION |
============

Animation in JEDI OUTCAST was fairly well done, however was too repetitive and not very varied. In this area I’m simply looking for an expanding of types of animations during combat, and when running (i.e. running normally, running enraged or concentrated [saber held high with too hands close to face]).

Again in this category achieving a fluid blended feel is important. Jerking from one animation to another is the one thing that must be avoided.


CONCLUSION:
This is a big task. These changes demand a lot, but I believe successful implementation of any of them with the appropriate testing and balancing will yield an exciting improvement to a already great game!

Almost creepy! So many points you made are exactly how I've approched Movie Battles...

...what's that saying about great minds? ;)

...although I don't think I'll be able to slot in enough time to move the game to a new game engine!! Maybe next release... lol


And Smood,
Build 4 is the one freely avaliable on the site.
(The one you had a sneak preview of was build 5 - unless the one I sent you was incorrectly named...)

The problem with instantly lethal sabers and manual blocking is that battles last less than a few seconds, especially if you got idle saber damage on. I know, I've tried it. :) Your reaction time with a keyboard/mouse setup is far too slow to prevent 100% of saber touches when just being touched by the saber kills you. Unless you have the equipment and money to make a better VR class control system, something has to give. Personally, I think setting the blade to a lower damage level but making it more "constant" (by reducing the damage debounce) feels fairly realistic (a solid hit will kill) while going you a chance to actually duel for a while.

Originally posted by razorace
The problem with instantly lethal sabers and manual blocking is that battles last less than a few seconds, especially if you got idle saber damage on. I know, I've tried it. :) Your reaction time with a keyboard/mouse setup is far too slow to prevent 100% of saber touches when just being touched by the saber kills you. Unless you have the equipment and money to make a better VR class control system, something has to give. Personally, I think setting the blade to a lower damage level but making it more "constant" (by reducing the damage debounce) feels fairly realistic (a solid hit will kill) while going you a chance to actually duel for a while.

Thats just it Razor! People always think in terms of our current combat system. However, think of a completely knew one. One in which saber fighting is not limited to animations, but only limited by a persons skill, and their ability to move. Employing this new system calls for instant saber damage since it is a system based on skill and discipline.

Those who play casually will be annhilated by those experienced players. Allow me to paint you a picture...

I approach a jedi in a CTF match, he attempts to pass me, I stand in his way and he knows there shall be a fight. We both approach eachother with a walking, cautious stance. He swings at me from the left (HOLD ON, the saber animation is fluid, not jerky, it is fast, but fluid, so I can see his saber moving towards me) granted I shall need some speed to counter it, but that is where skill comes in. I slide my mouse to the left to block, he turns his saber up, spins it, and brings it down in a vertically descending strike, I match this with my own saber falling down to block. He delays on the parrie which gives me an oppurtunity to move to the offensive. I bring my saber up, around my head and swing at his shoulder.

This all happens fairly quickly but seems fluid and CONTINUOUS. The key is clarity. The key is knowing WHAT YOU ARE DOING exactly. There is no way we can currently modify the saber combat system in jk to reflect this, but with movie battles we can bring it closer to this vision.

Using the movie as a referrence (even though these fights are planned ahead) we can clearly see a fluid fight. Now, don't take this to mean the fight must be continuous. I consider the Vader, Ben kenobi fight to be the greatest of all duels because it required skill, timing and a sense of prediction. This is what I feel games have the ability to achieve, if people were truly passionate about bringing GAMES to MOVIES, instead of worrying about gameplay.

The system I'm envisioning will be one of pure skill. Yes, some duels will be quick, but this will only reflect the lack of skill of a particular duelist, and either frustrate them, or cause them to acknowledge this lacking of ability and train to improve.



Renegade -

Sorry! I didn't even see the build on my file. ROFLOL!

Another point I can't stress enough is acceleration. We must do away with this game like pace, and bring more realism to fighting. NO I'M NOT SAYING MAKE IT A RPG. We can still have a fast paced fps, but do not exceed the speed of the movies. Keep jumping to a minimum (definately need an incentive to not constantly jump here), and make running or walking acceleration a fact. Yes you can be agile, but not have a degree of agility that refutes basic newtonian principle!

Just had to tack that on.

I am thinking in terms of a total rewrite. The problem is that you can't have 100% control of the saber with the mouse/keyboard and make it look/feel good.

My idea is to make the saber movement be based on the mouse control but there's no absolute mouse to saber control. I call it "Mouse Sabering" but that's something that I'm doing for MotF. In this system, you use simple mouse movements combined with the left/right buttons to translate to saber attack/defense moves. Yes, this doesn't give you subtle control of the saber but you can't really get that subtle control without a different form of input device other than a keyboard/mous. It should be easy to play but hard to master. :)

With 100% mouse to saber control you end up with "Die By the Sword". It was interesting game but mouse/keyboard control doesn't give enough input to make the system more complicated than swords swinging around wildly.

As for acceleration issues, yes, JK2 has a problem with body accelerations but it's not that much of a difference. Remember that it is possible to stop from a full-out run in a couple of steps.

I agree totally about requiring mouse control. This is the essence of melee combat of all games in the future. To control completely through the real world, relating an actual element of skill (in hand movement) to the saber.

With 100% mouse to saber control you end up with "Die By the Sword". It was interesting game but mouse/keyboard control doesn't give enough input to make the system more complicated than swords swinging around wildly.

I disagree with this in totality. It is not the inputting that is lacking, it is the game code. With proper programming, this 'mouse control' can be supported in such a way that the practice becomes skill realated. With exceptionally great collision detection, a high degree of physics, and slower REALISTIC/TRUE to the MOVIE dueling paces (i.e. REAL ACCELERATION), a skillful system can definately be achieved.

This is especially evident when looking at what movie battles has accomplished with simply adding a manual block, enforcing walk, and modifying code.

Razorace let me explain a bit of the practicality of the system. Imagine the mouse control as you see it. This coupled with fluid animation (which is key in making the system work). Now, when I attack, I hold down attack, move my mouse, as well as my body. Two avenues of control. The movement is slower but has acceleration so running very quickly is possible as long as it is in a straight line (i.e. if you have been holding down a movement key for a short time). Then my opponent moves his saber to match mine, but instead of attack, he uses alternate fire button held down, and defensive style animations are consequence to this.

This system is all about 'battle momentum'. This is to achieve the duel style of the movies. It is also about 'skill/time sense'.

I would say the first style represents episode 1 (obi and maul). There was quick switches from attacker to defender. It was a matter of waiting for the attacker to slow down a bit, or halt a saber series for a moment to switch momentum.

The second style represents a great sense of the duel. The waiting, and striking, again same momentum system, but with greater regard for skill and time.

the left to block, he turns his saber up, spins it, and brings it down in a vertically descending strike, I match this with my own saber falling down to block. He delays on the parrie which gives me an oppurtunity to move to the offensive. I bring my saber up, around my head and swing at his shoulder.

Talk about accuracy to the movies! That is almost exactly how Anakin lost his hand (came out of a saber lock, but that is basically two attacks that counter eachother[like a block] and Dooku swung while Anakin's hand was in its path). Just interesting.

The idea seems excellent. Maybe, you could use the right mouse button for saber block and you swing your mouse to block (already said, I know) and the blaster blocking stance is automatic when you walk. In the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers for Playstation2, you hit the defense button to make a defense maneuver. The only problem is that it almost always succeeded. This could be similar, but with the mouse-swing-block and for the button mashers, give a small delay between blocks so they are forced to commit. That way it is hard to spam.

Block-(two seconds)-Block-(two seconds)-Block-(two seconds)-Block-(one second) AAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. As he is decapitated. So ends the life of a button masher.

Feel free to adjust the time, but you get the idea. It is the same as the current idea, but I added the delay and automatic blaster-blocking-walk(not fool-proof of course)

Depending on his/her block level, adjust how close the cursor has to be to the enemies saber and how well the block must be timed.

Actually, a delay between blocks should only be based on the pace of the duel. Adding a deliberate delay would only reduce the lack of skill required, wounding the system. The blocking and motion of the saber should all be tuned to real world (or real movie) speed of varying degrees (but exceeding this speed is of paramount importance).

I also disagree with your automatic blaster block which would hurt the system further. Instead, manual block should be of full accordance and blaster blocking although requiring significant skill should be relatively simple for short durations of time.

Click alternate fire, await blaster bolts, and slide the saber to intercept bolts. Only the most skilled players will adopt this fully and be comfortable with the saber creating a sense of class skill struggle. Epicity at its finest.

That's nice and all but it's not practical. You can't react quickly enough with a keyboard/mouse to exactly control the saber to block a bolt or another saber. Check out "Die By the Sword", it has a system very similar to what you're describing.

If the mouse is linked directly to the saber, you can't change your direction with the mouse. You end up having to use the keyboard to turn or strafe while you are attacking OR blocking.

Plus, the physics to prevent model clipping/impossible moves on a full dynamic model would be VERY VERY tricky. The Karma Engine in UT is only the beginning of what would be required.

Possible, but not going to happen anytime soon, especially in a JK2 mod or in a game. It's complicated to do and hasn't soon the sales potental as a simplier system does. (Compare the sales of Die By the Sword to other simplier weapon games.)

A simpler system can give you similar amount of control and give you a equal or greater amount of immersion.

Only the most skilled players will adopt this fully and be comfortable with the saber

But what about new players? The less skilled may get frustrated with the system and stop playing and never become skilled in this system.

The delay was really to be implemented in the animation. With current blocking, your arms sort of warp into position. A swinging saber block and then another would take at least one second. "Delay" is the wrong word(how many times will that be said in this thread?) and was used to simplify. Similar to SP when you constantly attack in medium stance. You hit the enemy saber, bounce back, and hit again in two seconds, but the enemy saber stays put. That's the problem. If they give a similar swing to parry, this takes two seconds as well, giving the attacker (or defender, who is taking the offensive as in Smood's example) time to strike.

The defensive swing would in reality give you enough power to keep your own saber from being bounced into your neck, making this more realistic. One of Newton's (back to him) laws states(not exactly) that if the counter force is to completely balance out or defeat the opposing force, it must be at least as powerful. No motion will not give enough power to defend.

I agree. I'm planning on making the saber code for MotF be momentum based when I get to that point in the coding. Right now it's using some animation based crap that's very unrealistic and overally complicated.

Great discussion guys. A lot of good points flying around...

I'm still trying to digest it all and come up with a firm idea of how I would like to take the saber system further...

Just want to clarify something before I start my rant.
Smood, do you actually want a system like 'Die By The Sword'? I don't think you've actually stated specifically if this is an accurate analogy for your ideas. Have you ever played it?
In that game, every single movement of your sword was DIRECTLY linked to your mouse, to the point where swinging at an opponent meant you literally had to move the mouse back to move the sword back, and then move the mouse forward to 'swing' the sword in front of you.
Innovative ... original ... and a right pain in the arse! Even the most simple moves meant madly running your mouse all over your mouse mat yelling "Just hit him!! He's right in front of you!!" - as your player seemed to be trying to scratch his back!

I don't think that Smood is actually suggesting a system like this for attacking moves. (Please jump in and correct me Smood, but that's not the impression I'm getting). Personally, I think attacking moves don't need to be altered - certainly not in any drastic way. It does the job, allows a good degree of control and looks 'real' enough. Yeah, you've got the red-is-too-slow type debates, but that's just tweaks at the end of the day...

Where I think Smood might well agree with a similar parallel with 'Die-By-The-Sword' is saber defense. This I think I agree with too - in principle. While you have your defense button held, it would be great to be able to literally try and move your saber manually to block incoming fire or an enemy saber attack - it would be very immersive and would promote skillful play. I like the idea - in principle...

The first hurdle to overcome is how this manual positioning works coherently with free view though - and to be honest, I'm having trouble getting past this! I think were getting a bit ahead of ourselves worrying about whether it'll be too hard for people to grasp etc. If this system can't work in unison with free look, then as far as I can see, it's a non-starter...

Take an example where a Jedi is being attacked by two gun-weilding opponents attacking from two different angles. With the current saber system, you can attempt to look back and forth between both opponents and attempt to effectivly 'share' your blocking power between both opponents while you either try and move in and attack one of them, or move towards cover etc.

How will this work with manual saber blocking added to the mix? How do you decide when mouse movements are directing where your looking, or where your positioning your saber? Can you only do one or the other at any one time? If so, this puts you in a VERY bad position any time you are being attacked by multiple enemies from differing angles...

Could you elaborate a bit more on your plans Smood? It's possible their's more to explain - but I've gotta say, at the moment, I'm having trouble visualising how your ideas are going to work in a practical sense.

Apologies for not mentioning all the points all of you have made thus far. I just want to try and investigate fully each of these ideas one by one...

Originally posted by master_thomas
But what about new players? The less skilled may get frustrated with the system and stop playing and never become skilled in this system.


No, those who do get frustrated, are those who don't truly appreciate saber combat and should stick to gun toting. They are the players who appreciate a direct route and clear solution, rather then the route of a jedi. This is in contrary to the player that has an interest in developing skill, and appreciates the depth of a specific system. This is the player that will be the jedi. Who will win? Whose to say, depends on many factors, but this is the division of players.



The defensive swing would in reality give you enough power to keep your own saber from being bounced into your neck, making this more realistic. One of Newton's (back to him) laws states(not exactly) that if the counter force is to completely balance out or defeat the opposing force, it must be at least as powerful. No motion will not give enough power to defend.

I believe you are referring to Newton's third law of action reaction force. However you analysis is flawed. Remember the defender as well as the attacker apply 'constant' force. Not only is the clash victor gauged by the initial collision, but the defender and attacker apply sustaining force to further emplore their sabers. If the defensive force was never enough most duels would end with the overpowering of one player on the defensive, however, does this occur? No. As you can see in the movies, defensive power is enough, especially considering a saber duel, is much different then a sword fight.

You cannot directly apply the laws of newton on object of fiction such as a saber, whose center of mass and blade dynamics are vastly different, and unknown relative to a sword. Yes I know you never mentioned a sword, but this is a prime example of newton's action reaction force in a battle.

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Great discussion guys. A lot of good points flying around...

I'm still trying to digest it all and come up with a firm idea of how I would like to take the saber system further...

Just want to clarify something before I start my rant.
Smood, do you actually want a system like 'Die By The Sword'? I don't think you've actually stated specifically if this is an accurate analogy for your ideas. Have you ever played it?
In that game, every single movement of your sword was DIRECTLY linked to your mouse, to the point where swinging at an opponent meant you literally had to move the mouse back to move the sword back, and then move the mouse forward to 'swing' the sword in front of you.
Innovative ... original ... and a right pain in the arse! Even the most simple moves meant madly running your mouse all over your mouse mat yelling "Just hit him!! He's right in front of you!!" - as your player seemed to be trying to scratch his back!

I don't think that Smood is actually suggesting a system like this for attacking moves. (Please jump in and correct me Smood, but that's not the impression I'm getting). Personally, I think attacking moves don't need to be altered - certainly not in any drastic way. It does the job, allows a good degree of control and looks 'real' enough. Yeah, you've got the red-is-too-slow type debates, but that's just tweaks at the end of the day...

Where I think Smood might well agree with a similar parallel with 'Die-By-The-Sword' is saber defense. This I think I agree with too - in principle. While you have your defense button held, it would be great to be able to literally try and move your saber manually to block incoming fire or an enemy saber attack - it would be very immersive and would promote skillful play. I like the idea - in principle...

The first hurdle to overcome is how this manual positioning works coherently with free view though - and to be honest, I'm having trouble getting past this! I think were getting a bit ahead of ourselves worrying about whether it'll be too hard for people to grasp etc. If this system can't work in unison with free look, then as far as I can see, it's a non-starter...

Take an example where a Jedi is being attacked by two gun-weilding opponents attacking from two different angles. With the current saber system, you can attempt to look back and forth between both opponents and attempt to effectivly 'share' your blocking power between both opponents while you either try and move in and attack one of them, or move towards cover etc.

How will this work with manual saber blocking added to the mix? How do you decide when mouse movements are directing where your looking, or where your positioning your saber? Can you only do one or the other at any one time? If so, this puts you in a VERY bad position any time you are being attacked by multiple enemies from differing angles...

Could you elaborate a bit more on your plans Smood? It's possible their's more to explain - but I've gotta say, at the moment, I'm having trouble visualising how your ideas are going to work in a practical sense.

Apologies for not mentioning all the points all of you have made thus far. I just want to try and investigate fully each of these ideas one by one...


Actually renegade, I was speaking in the sense of a completely new system, NOT IN TERMS of the movie battles project! This and your work, is completely seperate from my personal theories which apply to melee gaming in the near future.

I personally feel movie battles, perhaps with more modification, perhaps not :), pushes jk2 to the extent of realistic and skillful dueling. I in fact am completely satisfied with it, and what it offers, however if you feel you need to take it futher go for it, I support you 100%.

My saber theory is not directly related to die by the sword. I was actually suggesting a amalgam of the current system and a manual control system (and all this is in context for future star wars games, not jediknight 2). Specifically I was thinking of a system where the user can swing from different start positions, and once the saber is in movement can control the saber with the mouse. The saber would then end when it arrives at the end of an animation cycle, and return to normal position. The 'stances' would be replaced by styles dictating different starting positions, and while the saber was engaged with attack would be controlled with the mouse.

How do you turn? Simple, autopan. Have the saber acceletate as the mouse accelerates and turn the camera once it moves off the 180 degree plane of vision, along with the jedi turning. If you think about it, it is an extremely intriguing possibility.

Autopan?! That's nuts, you'd not be able to rotate your body quickly enough to face your opponent. The game would probably devolve down to charging past each other trying to strike sideways at your opponent's side.

As for the Blocking stuff, manually blocking bolts isn't going to happen. It's like trying to hit a baseball half the normal size with a bat half the normal width at 3+ times the speed at 360 degrees of attack with mouse control. It's not going to happen at anything remotely resembling saber combat.

In MotF, we're going with a manual/auto system. You'll use secondary fire with Mouse Sabering (or the keyboard for the old schoolers) to choice one of at least 4 (most likely 8 positions) defense positions. From there, the chance to block something involved the distance from the saber.

Ahh - guess I wasn't following the conversation...!

OK, in retrospect, I think I'm pretty much settled on my saber combat and blocking system as-is. Maybe tweaks as I go along, but on the whole I think it suits the pace of JKII well..

But just to clarify my eventual idea for this other theoretical manual saber blocking though. (I didn't explain fully so Smood could reply and clarify...).
I wouldn't have envisaged having to hit the bolt or saber dead on either. I too think this is going to be near-damn impossible to do in any kind of consistent way. (It wouldn't be possible even if you had the saber in your actual hands, let alone controlling one through a mouse and keyboard...)

But what I did envisage were the chances of performing a block being dependent on how close your saber happenned to be to the bolt / saber when it is about to hit. But for the actual block itself, the game would auto-move the saber into the correct position -assuming your block was indeed sucsessful...

If you have such amazing reflexes that you can consistenly manage to get it at least in the general direction of the bolt or saber thrust, the chance of a block would be greatly improved. So your skill has a direct effect.
But, if your reflexes aren't that good, you wouldn't move your saber far from the central postion, meaning that any shot which could potentially hit you only has so much chance of not getting blocked.
If you risk trying to go for proper blocks, and you get it wildly wrong (you move you saber to the lower-right, while a bolt is coming in at your upper-left), then you have next-to-no chance of a sucsessful block.
So saber blocking becomes a game of how much your willing to rick exposing your saber from the neutral blocking position to try and gain extra blocking chance...

But anyway, this is for a different game - like Smood says. Gotta be honest, I'm not convinced about the auto-scroll thing either - but since your talking about a totally different game here - it's all a bit theoretical really..

In any case - I think the current Movie Battles system is the appropiate compromise between frantic action and controlled defense for JKII gaming...

I discussed a bit of my theory with Renegade and I think we have come to understanding about it.

But in an effort to steer the topic back on track from its digression, I'll end the discussion with:

MOVIE BATTLES IS GREAT.

.... any arguments? I would be happy to refute them.

But what I did envisage were the chances of performing a block being dependent on how close your saber happenned to be to the bolt / saber when it is about to hit. But for the actual block itself, the game would auto-move the saber into the correct position -assuming your block was indeed sucsessful...

That's what I said with the addition of how the defense level alters how close it must be. This makes the repeater possible to defend against.

Right master_thomas - sorry if you already posted the same idea. I found myself having a lot to read through last night!

Anyway, I think it's pretty much agreed that overly-manual blocking isn't making it's way into Movie Battles.
If we want to start another thread to continue discussing these possibilities for another game, that'd be OK. But I would like, if possible, to get this thread back on topic...

Just to give an update, I've found myself taking it relatively easy this week - I think I'm totally coded out from the past few weeks of full-on development!

I have made some headway on the class changing problems, but still haven't got them totally nailed. I'll hopefully make some good progress over the weekend...

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

If we want to start another thread to continue discussing these possibilities for another game, that'd be OK. But I would like, if possible, to get this thread back on topic...



I.e. my last post! :)

Yeap - just reemphasising :)

I just downloaded the beta and had some suggestions:

-Just a little faster force recharge
-Faster jet pack fuel diminishing but also recharge for the jet pack
-Saber blocking should hit the people your blocking laser from more accurately. This would fix the long range mandalorians running away thing
-You should be able to pick your class and use more models but from the same time period
-Two guns would be cool

I'll go play some more and then I'll have more comments. nice mod!

Hmmm. I replied earlier, but the post seems to have gotten lost.

...wierd.

Oh well, anyway, I'll think about your suggestions.
But I just want to clarify what you mean here:

You should be able to pick your class and use more models but from the same time period

I'm planning to add a specific class selector to the menu, which will mean only the models of the chosen class will be avaliable for selection.

Also, you can currently change the time period by setting the g_timePeriod cvar:

1 = EU models
2 = Original Trilogy models
4 = Prequel models

You can also combine these values.
e.g. The default setting is EU + Original Trilogy (1 + 2 = 3!)

Do these two things cover it?

Here is the first version of the manual:

Movie Battles manual (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/Movie%20Battles.doc)

It's not much at the moment, but it does at least explain the basics. I'll keep adding to it as I go...

And for thoose without Microsoft Word:

http://www.geocities.com/jman3ooo/MBManual.txt)

Good thinking Jman :)

I don't know what's up with my site at the moment - the index.html file seems to be getting regularly wiped!

Anyway, if all your seeing is a list of files, download and open Movie Battles.doc and that will explain what to do next.
(Those without Word, open the .txt document Jman has avaliable in the above link. I'll also get a .txt only version up on my site when I get a chance...)

Interesting concept, and the beta worked fine for me, with one exception - apparently, there is a bug with a music. Why a bug? Because after I loaded the mod, instead of any of John Williams's glorious themes, I only heard a grinding, screeching, atonal, metallic noise constantly playing in the background :p :p :p

HEY!!

Well, actually, you have a point! :)

At least I'm not just constantly over-using John Williams masterpieces (I totally agree.. ;) ), - sticking them into every single game I make without fail...

...at least it's something different!

You mean the fact that you hear more of the same music in the games than you do in the movies is annoying? :D

Ermmm ... yeah...

Well, I maybe wouldn't go as far as annoying, but I think it ends up taking away, let's say, the impact of the SW music when you've keep hearing the same section over and over again playing JKII MP, or any other SW-based LucasArts game. But, perhaps that's just me...

Tell ya what - I'll chuck in a cvar so you can have the default music back. No big deal to me :) I only knocked those tunes up in a couple of afternoons (as you can probably tell - lol) - while I was bored waiting for the JKII MP code to come out...!

...and some people seem to actually like it btw...! ;)

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Hmmm. I replied earlier, but the post seems to have gotten lost.

...wierd.

Oh well, anyway, I'll think about your suggestions.
But I just want to clarify what you mean here:



I'm planning to add a specific class selector to the menu, which will mean only the models of the chosen class will be avaliable for selection.

Also, you can currently change the time period by setting the g_timePeriod cvar:

1 = Original Trilogy (default)
2 = Prequels
3 = Both

Do these two things cover it?

What I mean is it would be good if you could pic a model then pic if you wanted him to be a jedi, hero and so on.

Also, the solder type person should eather have more health or more shealds.

I agree. It loses impact when it's used too much.

I really like the music!

I like it too. It reminds me of the new version of "The Imperial March" (Darth Vader's theme) that Zeus put in "The Emperor's Courthouse"(please correct me if I'm wrong, or if the other ones had it)

Maybe replace some of the other music with similar songs (variations on the original songs) so it doesn't keep repeating.

Thx boys - I appreciate the backup ;D

I say we mail bomb raven till they launch a patch that makes SP dueling available in MP ;p

Regarding the post about accelerations.. the SP system works a bit diferent regarding speed and acceleration... it's better in my opinion.. but still too fast.

One can think of countless blocking systems. I might as well throw another one... i wouldnt remove autodefense (with Movie Battles blocking button held down of course), but i would rather discourage Jedi/Sith from settling down on defense and force them to either take cover or get really agressive on the opponent.

First Renegade would have to re-assign the autoblocking chance points and connect them directly to engaged saber blocking skill...

In the curent system a jedi can forget assigning points to the defense and spend them somewhere else cuz they are not so good and if you engaged saber defense will be very efective. So the saber defense points now relate directly to engaged saber blocking chances and if not held, you'd block jack s#%t. So far so good...

Now comes the tricky part... which i do not know if it's possible or how hard it would be... basically it makes jedi access the force to predict incomming bolts... so blocking continuous bolts would drain force(if you want to take this even further... the more points you invest on force sight.. the less blocking costs)... saber blocking however would be based on simply engaging the saber blocking at the right times as is now... cuz i'm sure parrying or blocking a saber is pretty easier than blocking fast moving bolts. I do not know if thegame makes a distinction between saber hits and blaster hits... if not.. it would probably be tricky.

Anyway... here's the most practical blocking system that i could think of by simply removing the jedi player's confortable blocking feeling.

I also read about changing the stances. I agree somewhat to that but i dont consider it as important as some other aspects.
I say the fast but light, 50-50 or strong but slow attacks should be tweaked, making them ideal to diferent situations but being equally balanced between them. Meaning the changes between stances dont reflect on power vs speed but on attack vs defense types ideal to certain situations.
I'll just throw in an example:

*Blue stance: Focuses on Defense so the player gets a bonus on defense making almost all shots blockable but can do little to attack since he's focused on defense. Can only do a couple of horizontal slashes to dispose of blaster wielding enemies. Also good for blocking saber attacks, but attack is near useless vs another saber wielding opponent. Good for getting out of hotspots.

*Yellow Stance: Focuses on Attack without sacrificing too much defense. An all around style that is good for battling both saber wielding opponents and lone blaster wielding foes or in small groups (2 or 3 tops).

*Red Stance: The players will engange in a battle of agility and acrobatics. Saber attack and defense is equally matched and allows the more acrobatic and intricate moves such as the overhead jump slash, spinning moves and cartwheels. preferably both duellists should be using this stance when fighting eachother. This Stance should make Jedi an easy pray against blaster wielding opponents as bolts could be blocked but attacks are rather inefective cuz they leave them wide open for blaster fire.

Summary:
*Blue:
**Target Opponents: Soldiers and Heros
**Advantages: Great Defense vs All; Good for Large groups of Soldiers/Heros
**Disadvantages: Poor attack vs Saber;

*Yellow:
**Target Opponents: Jedi, Mandalorian or lone Soldiers/Heros
**Advantages: Better Attack vs All; Regular Defense vs All
**Disadvantages: Poor vs Large groups of Soldiers/Heros

*Red:
**Target Opponents: Jedi
**Advantages: Regular Attack vs Jedi; Regular Defense; Fancy Moves
**Disadvantages: Poor Attack vs Soldiers/Heros; Only effective vs 1 Jedi Enemy and out of sight of Soldiers/Heros.

Note: Speed and attack strength should be relatively the same on all stances.

Both the saber blocking idea and the saber stance idea could be implemented to work with eachother.

Ok.. that's enough writing for tonight. Plz comment on these ideas.. i'd like to get some feedback on these.

What I mean is it would be good if you could pic a model then pic if you wanted him to be a jedi, hero and so on.

Also, the solder type person should eather have more health or more shealds.

For the first point, this would allow stormtroopers to be carrying lightsabers like the normal game - this is not what i want for my mod.
So, this is not going to be implemented...

For the second point, you may be right. I just don't want to up it too much, so that soldiers can't be killed with one saber swipe. I think this is - not only funny :D - but also important for the movie-realism feel...
Well see...

BloodRiot,

That's kinda wierd - my original idea was to make blocking bolts take up force energy...!

However, I think, while it does achieve what you mention, it would also drive Jedi players mad! If they run out of Force power, they are simply stuck! If they can't block, they are dead! That is gonna get very fustrating very quickly...
The disadvantage to actively blocking is that you slow to a walking pace. That not may seem like a big deal, but I think it has a quite noticable effect - Jedi's are kind-of forced into the role of Guardian and Protector rather than, say, Hunter! Because the Jedi can't chase people down as readily as they could do before.

This is part of my effort to balance the Jedi against other classes, WITHOUT actually diminishing their power. What I hope I've done is create a situation where if the Jedi is protecting an area (or the Jedi is approaching an area your trying to protect..) and your NOT a Jedi, then your in trouble! The Jedi is THE most powerful class at close range - no question! They can saber you, trick you, grip you, fry you etc. etc.
BUT, at LONG range, their actually relatively weak. Not only do they have no long range attacks, but if your attacking them while their trying to get to you, they have to walk if they plan to stay alive! This means they either have to try and find a way to you that has cover (i.e. they have to think like any other class would), or you can easiely stay out of range of their deadly attacks...

As far as the stance-related ideas, yeah, their good ideas. I will have a think about them and make a desicion for the second release - we'll see what happens...
(The first release is going to be not much more than the current beta with all the bugs and other issues fixed...)

OK boys,

I'm getting a few people together for a beta play-test...
It's taking place tomorrow (Sunday) at 1:30pm EST (6:30 UK).
We've got around 6 more player-slots avaliable. If you'd like to play, then send me an e-mail:

renegadeofphunk@3dactionplanet.com

...and if I get back to you, your in :)

I'm sailing then :(.

I'll catch the next one.

Phew!

I think I've (finally!) sorted out all the class changing wierdness...!
I'm gonna check and double check everything before I say I've DEFINELTY sorted it, but so far it's looking good.

So, the first full release of Movie Battles is not too far off now... :)

Neat. What was the main problem?

The main problem was I was sending the client index stored in playerstate to ClientBegin at the beginning of new rounds to put players back in the game, which normally is fine - unless you've been following someone in spectate and then changed your details, cos then that index gets set to the person your following! gulp!

So now I use the 'proper' index, and - sorted! :)
One of those problems that - like so many - takes 2 seconds to fix, but AGES to find!

There were a couple of other minor things too - to do with the team setting of the menus and.. ermm .. something else I can't actually remember now!

Been there. It took me forever to figure out the TurAngles and ghoul2 hitzone bugs. :P

Ok guys,

Build 6 is now up on the site:
Movie Battles (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/richard.hart4/)

If you have already downloaded Build 4 and the appropiate models, you need to download 3 new models for build 6 (unless you have them already of course...)

These are:

Tex360, Toonces, Arco, Mars:
Ep.I OB1 Kenobi
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=1087)

Kavis:
Rebel Elite
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=923)

Eric Landreneau:
Royal Guard
Download link (http://www.jediknightii.net/files/index.php?link=file&id=776)

I believe all the class changing problems are now sorted in this build.
Also, I've added a class selector control to the menu, so that things are a bit clearer!

I've also added a new time period section - the EU time period.
So now the g_timePeriod settings are:

1 - EU models
2 - Original Trilogy Models
4 - Prequel Models

These values can be combined by adding them together.
E.g. the default setting is 3 - which equals EU + Original Trilogy...

I've also beefed up the soldier class a bit to make it a bit more balanced against the other classes...

There are quite a few other tweaks and stuff which I won't bother listing...

Just realised I left a small problem in Build 6. Selecting 'Auto Team' in the menu's wasn't quite working right...

I've fixed the problem and uploaded build 7 to the site.

Those of you who have downloaded build 6 (in the last hour or so...), you will need to delete that file and download build 7...

...sorry!

OK.

I've been playing a few more games with my main man - Jman! - and while the class balance is certainly improved, I think I've decided that there is still more work to do...

Which means the final release isn't quite as near as I hoped :/

Oh well, you guys want it done properly anyway - right? :)

The hero class specifically needs some work. I won't say exactly what at the moment - I'm gonna work on it and make sure it's gonna work how I imagine it will, and then I'll let you know...