Look at the following descriptions:
We have a country that has, for many years, violated UN resolutions, that is oppressing its own citizens, and is terrorising its neighbours.
We also have a rag-tag bunch of terrorist organisations who are motivated by fundamentalism and hatred, which kill civilians and obstruct peace processes.
What do you think I am talking about? Iraq & Al Queda or Israel & the Palestine resistance?
Is there really so much of a difference?
No? Well, I kinda figured. Then why does Iraq get so much media coverage, while the Israeli/Palestinian civil war gets only a few lines counting the bodies fed to the great beast of war?
Is it really fair that a war that is in progress gets less media spotlight than a war that is only being prepared?
Is the cause-effect chain not really the other way about? Is it not the one-sided US involvement in Israel that is the cause of the discontent in the Arabian world? Would the US not get a lot more support for their war if the Israel/Palestine conflict was solved?
So why does the Iraq war get more time in the limelight than the Israel/Palestine civil war?
Because no matter how many people commit seppuku while wearing explosives in Israel or Palestine, it's not going to be a threat, or even a nuisance, to the rest of the world.
The middle east can go f*ck themselves for all the western world cares, as long as they don't aim their warheads at us, or our allies.
Oh, and Saddam tried to kill George jr.'s daddy. We can't have that.
Originally posted by C'jais
Because no matter how many people commit seppuku while wearing explosives in Israel or Palestine, it's not going to be a threat, or even a nuisance, to the rest of the world.
False. There is much to indicate that the Al Queda are fuelled by what they percieve as 'unjust american oppression' of the Palestinian people... Not that I think that Israel is a good guy in this conflict.
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
There is much to indicate that the Al Queda are fuelled by what they percieve as 'unjust american oppression' of the Palestinian people...
In that case...
...the world is just not up to date these days.
:)
A problem that I've always noted with the Israeli/Palastinian conflict is that there is too much conflict of interest with western nations, particularly the U.S.
1) The western world is thouroghly populated with Jewish people in all classes of society. Palestinians, too, are present in many western populations, but not generally in positions of high status.
2) Israel identifies itself as a Jewish state and identifies it's people as ethinically "Jewish." To be Israeli = Jewish.
3) Item #2 makes it difficult for anyone to critisize the Israeli goverment, political positions/decisions, etc. because they run the risk of being labeled anti-semetic (which is ironic, since "semitic" includes Arabs) or racist.
4) High status of Jewish citizens in western countries such as the United States may very well influence policy with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Either directly by intential subversion or indirectly by personal bias.
At any rate, a long history of assistance and support to Israel has been established and probably difficult to break by the U.S. government. This certainly fuels anger and hatred by Arab nations and Arab NGO's (non-governmental organizations).
My personal opinion has been that U.S. foriegn policy with regard to Israel needs to be re-looked and drastic changes made. Perhaps an embargo, or at least a boycott, on both entities will be the best policy. Revoke all previous trade agreements and warranties on traded goods, impose a traval ban, and restrict financial transactions by placing a hold on all funds held in the United States.
That kind of pressure would force a resolution between the two nations quick. We would have to make a pledge to defend both nations from attack from other countries (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc.) that might want to take advantage of the situation, but the key thing would be imposing the same sanctions on both countries, regardless of how much more one is affected than the other.
SkinWalker
Originally posted by SkinWalker
My personal opinion has been that U.S. foriegn policy with regard to Israel needs to be re-looked and drastic changes made. Perhaps an embargo, or at least a boycott, on both entities will be the best policy. Revoke all previous trade agreements and warranties on traded goods, impose a traval ban, and restrict financial transactions by placing a hold on all funds held in the United States.
That kind of pressure would force a resolution between the two nations quick. We would have to make a pledge to defend both nations from attack from other countries (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc.) that might want to take advantage of the situation, but the key thing would be imposing the same sanctions on both countries, regardless of how much more one is affected than the other.
I see one obvious flaw in that plan: Sanctions aren't gonna make them gonna stop killing each other. While I agree that we should treat the two parties in this conflict as equals (which includes, I might add, a stop for the military support granted to Israel), there is still the problem of the two parties killing each other.
Since we have a large area where the terretories are intermingled (because of the israeli policy of making the Palestinian lands "holed as a Swiss Cheese", as someone said once), it would be next to impossible to just hunker down a big, fat UN force to keep them from killing each other (like we did on Cypern and were supposed to do in Screbrenitza (sp?)).
BTW: I say that we should make obedience of UN resolutions a condition for defensive aid to Israel.
This conflict is further complicated by the issue of water supply: Almost all of the Israeli water comes from the occiupied terretories and the land conquered during the Six Days War.
But other than that I pretty much agree with you.
There's one simple reason why Bush is "ignoring" Isreal and Palestine. Its not threatening him so he doesn't give a damn. (And yes for once I am bashing my President :D )
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
There's one simple reason why Bush is "ignoring" Isreal and Palestine. Its not threatening him so he doesn't give a damn. (And yes for once I am bashing my President :D )
If el Presidente doesn't regard that conflict as a threat to the US then he's kinda stupid, IMO... Buut we knew that already, didn't we?
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
I see one obvious flaw in that plan: Sanctions aren't gonna make them gonna stop killing each other. .... is still the problem of the two parties killing each other.
This conflict is further complicated by the issue of water supply: Almost all of the Israeli water comes from the occiupied terretories and the land conquered during the Six Days War.
That's what makes my idea radical. It will force them to find common ground in order to survive. Eventually, killing will not be enough. They will have to work together if either is to survive as a nation.
Their proximity to each other and the propensity each has for terroristic acts upon the other will be the one thing they'll have to put aside if they expect any trade or the lifting of any sanctions.
But it's still just my humble little idea. (JMHLI?)
SkinWalker
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
False. There is much to indicate that the Al Queda are fuelled by what they percieve as 'unjust american oppression' of the Palestinian people... Not that I think that Israel is a good guy in this conflict. you base this on what?
last year there was alot of news about Isreal and Palestine (there still is when something happens), and we (the U.S.) hosted the two for peace talks on several occasions. but now that a war with Iraq is in the spotlight, they're less of a priority.
Originally posted by InsaneSith
you base this on what?
I could be wrong, but I think that Shadow is talking about a Bin Laden audio or video release that he actually made some comment about the U.S. position in the Palestinian - Israeli conflict.
Again.... I'm going totally on memory, but I'm almost positive that if you do a search for "bin laden, palestine, United States" in Google you'll get something.
*Does a quick search...
Yep.... the very first link with that one got:
hen these defended their oppressed sons, brothers, and sisters in Palestine and in many Islamic countries, the world at large shouted. The infidels shouted, followed by the hypocrites.
Cheers
SkinWalker
Originally posted by SkinWalker
I could be wrong, but I think that Shadow is talking about a Bin Laden audio or video release that he actually made some comment about the U.S. position in the Palestinian - Israeli conflict.
Nope, what I'm talking about is the fact that you have a bunch of governments that don't particulairly like Israel who govern a bunch of populations that don't particulairly like Israel because those same (BTW also religious) governments told them that Israel is the source of all evil in the world (exept for the US), which is wrong all the way, and that their Palestinian 'brothers in faith and culture' are being oppressed by Israel, which is more than half right... I'm merely guessing, but I think that Billie-on-the-hill bought that version of the truth, in which case the al Queda recruits loath Israel... But Skin's explanation is rather good too (it's just that I don't run around remembering what some madhat cardinal did or didn't say).
Did you know that on the 25th (I think) of February -03 it started snowing in Israel? And nobody could fight with snow all over the place. They really need more snow down there (which would also go a long way in solving the political problems).
A problem that I've always noted with the Israeli/Palastinian conflict is that there is too much conflict of interest with western nations, particularly the U.S.
1) The western world is thouroghly populated with Jewish people in all classes of society. Palestinians, too, are present in many western populations, but not generally in positions of high status.
2) Israel identifies itself as a Jewish state and identifies it's people as ethinically "Jewish." To be Israeli = Jewish.
3) Item #2 makes it difficult for anyone to critisize the Israeli goverment, political positions/decisions, etc. because they run the risk of being labeled anti-semetic (which is ironic, since "semitic" includes Arabs) or racist.
4) High status of Jewish citizens in western countries such as the United States may very well influence policy with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Either directly by intential subversion or indirectly by personal bias.
At any rate, a long history of assistance and support to Israel has been established and probably difficult to break by the U.S. government. This certainly fuels anger and hatred by Arab nations and Arab NGO's (non-governmental organizations).
My personal opinion has been that U.S. foriegn policy with regard to Israel needs to be re-looked and drastic changes made. Perhaps an embargo, or at least a boycott, on both entities will be the best policy. Revoke all previous trade agreements and warranties on traded goods, impose a traval ban, and restrict financial transactions by placing a hold on all funds held in the United States.
That kind of pressure would force a resolution between the two nations quick. We would have to make a pledge to defend both nations from attack from other countries (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc.) that might want to take advantage of the situation, but the key thing would be imposing the same sanctions on both countries, regardless of how much more one is affected than the other.
SkinWalker
Has anyone called you anty-semitic yet? I guess you didn't know, but anty-semitic is not only a person who doesn't like Jewish but also a person who is't liked by Jewish. There were many examples of that! If you tell the trough about them (which is usually unpleasant for them) you instantly become anty-semitic.
Embargo is a just a wishful thinking: consider who is in your guvernment, and who is in mine? We both know that the major number of politicans are jewish (the only difference betwean your and mine ****ry is we are poor and our politicans makes all effords to make the situation worse:() As long as jewish rules your, mine and others there is no way to seize this conflict! Palestins were the injured nation from the begining! Israel is an artificial being. Palestins are treated like Poles and poor Jewish under the hands of Hitler (who was 100% Jewish), Jewish who colaborated with Germans, or under the rule of ZSRR and their komunists and Jewish. And people say that that Palestins commit deadly suicides ... What else do they have?! Rocks against tanks?! Bombs and so their lives against their war stuff?!
Another thing to mention is that Jewish will take part in the Irqui war and then profit from it.
Hmm... A bit one-sided that statement is, no? After all the Palestinians do blow up civilians. I guess that I understand that you blow yourself up when there are tanks rolling though the streets of your cities, but personally I don't think that it's gonna stop those tanks.
I know that this thread's a bit old, but the discussion seems to still be relevant.
Check out this article on Rachel Corrie (
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16003) to give you a little backstory.
She was an American student from Olympia, WA who lived on the Gaza strip. She and her fellow ISM volunteers used peaceful, non-violent demonstrations to prevent the Israeli government from razing the homes of innocent Palestinians.
The Israelis have been bull-dozing the homes of various Palesinians in an effort to get them to leave the Gaza strip and, in the process, many innocents have been killed. There are numerous instances in which the neighbors of the homes being razed were killed by their own homes collapsing. One such instance was involved a woman who was 9 months pregnant.
According to her fellow ISM volunteers on the scene, Rachel was standing in front of a Palestinian Doctor's home with her bright orange safety vest and in the path of a bulldozer. The bulldozer operator refused to stop... it was apparent that he could see her but continued. She was killed and one of the reports I read stated that before she died, and as the bulldozer and it's operator fled without rendering assistance, she cried out that her back was broken.
The Israeli bulldozer operator stated that he didn't see her.
These attrocities occur EVERY DAY for Palestinians. Bulldozing homes is an act of Genocide as determined by the Geneva Convention.
We don't know if the bulldozer operator sincerly did not see her or not. But now that it has happened to an American, it's time for us to demand a third party observer to be placed on the ground in the Gaza strip to see what is REALLY going on.
Do a search at news.google.com for "rachel corrie" to find more information. I also have an article published in .pdf format from a professional journal on the Middle East that is interesting, should anyone want it.
Well really thats old news, its the same news played over and over for 50 years or so..... Israel isnt really the bad guy but niether are the palestinians..... The israelis were kicked out of their homes and moved to palestine, the UN granted them a state and that was that. They were fleeing from a racist bastard (hitler). Europe still seems to hate jews, in particular, france. Both sides approved bushs road map to peace so soon there will be a palestinian state, probably anyway. That is in every bodys interest.
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Europe still seems to hate jews, in particular, france.
Why do you believe that? No European country hates jews, especially not France.
Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
If el Presidente doesn't regard that conflict as a threat to the US then he's kinda stupid, IMO... Buut we knew that already, didn't we?
Stupid? Not really relevant...
Acting in a badly intentioned or self-absorbed intererest? Maybe...
Isreal? Palestine?
Who cares!!!!???
It's a piece of real estate that some very flawed and very old books claim is special.
Get over your tired beliefs and then you'll get some peace.
that's my advice to the desert community.
Originally posted by SkinWalker
We don't know if the bulldozer operator sincerly did not see her or not. But now that it has happened to an American, it's time for us to demand a third party observer to be placed on the ground in the Gaza strip to see what is REALLY going on.
Sad that **** must happen to westerners before we care.
Isreal? Palestine?
Who cares!!!!???
It's a piece of real estate that some very flawed and very old books claim is special.
Get over your tired beliefs and then you'll get some peace.
that's my advice to the desert community.
Hah! Great advise. Problem is, until they realize it too, things are gonna get pretty hot.
Cage: Don't play the 'anti-semitism' card. It's old, it's tired, and statements like your's is like the proverbial crying wolf: It makes people dismiss a possible real case of anti-semitism in the future.
Israel was a bad idea to begin with, but now it's a historical reality. Too bad, really, but I guess that we've gotta live with it. I mean you can't very well start deporting the entire population, can you?
So Israel is there to stay. Everybody should get that fact straight, including the Palestinian terrorist groups, and things would run far more smoothly. However, Israel would do well to realize that the Palestinians must be given a state that is Israel's equal. Or there will never be peace.
BTW: This thread ought to get a name-change: With the fate of the Road-map hanging in the balance, the media have suddenly found time to lavish attention on this primary problem in the Middle East.
Both sides approved bushs road map to peace so soon there will be a palestinian state, probably anyway. That is in every bodys interest.
False on both counts. The PA agreed, Israel agreed with certain reservations. And peace is certainly not in the interest of the extremist factions, who view 'the others' as an eternal enemy that must be driven completely out of their 'god-given' lands.
Originally posted by speck of dust
Isreal? Palestine?
Who cares!!!!???
It's a piece of real estate that some very flawed and very old books claim is special.
Get over your tired beliefs and then you'll get some peace.
that's my advice to the desert community. its more than just what some books say to the palestinians. to them it is their rightful land. and it is. if anything the so called state of israel would be closer toward western egypt(if you follow the books).if israel would just give back the land to the palestinians it would be fine.
Originally posted by CagedCrado
Well really thats old news, its the same news played over and over for 50 years or so..... Israel isnt really the bad guy but niether are the palestinians..... The israelis were kicked out of their homes and moved to palestine, the UN granted them a state and that was that. They were fleeing from a racist bastard (hitler). Europe still seems to hate jews, in particular, france. Both sides approved bushs road map to peace so soon there will be a palestinian state, probably anyway. That is in every bodys interest. america hated jews just as much as hitler. also they were given that land because america and england didn't want them. (england later opened their gates to those who wished to come) america had even had slang terms and derogatory things said about jews from the 40's all the way into the late 60's.israel has no use to anyone. that's not even where the "real" israel would be located at.
Let's face it though, it's still those tired old beliefs by both parties that make this issue of land a horrific tug of war. If religion wasn't involved, this territorial issue could be dealt with in a timely orderly fashion. If religion wasn't involved,(i.e. the temple on the mount, the wailing wall, etc...) then these two CULTURES, because that is what they are, simply different cultures, would be able to agree on a proportionate amount of space for each population. But the way it stands now, even the christians, who believe the end of the world is tied into to whether the jews have 'ownership' over the temple, have a stake in all this. It's all mythology, history, and unreality, that if disgarded, would make the whole area cool the f u c K down, take a deep breath, and resolve it in a civil manner.
The two realities that are often overlooked are, as you guys pointed out, that religiously speaking, Isreal is in the wrong place anyway. Which only compound how meaningless religion should be on this issue. And also, politically speaking, the Palestinians were never respected or cared about by the arab community prior to the isreal situation. They too were nomadic refugees that were considered lowerclass by the rest of the muslim world. Now all of a sudden they all care about them. It's clear the religions and political hypocracies have always run rampant on this issue. All these issues are history, history, history. Who cares? We're dealing with two cultures of human beings who deserve a better than this. But the only way to do that is to throw out the main roadblock: the past. Only by cutting ourselves away from history can we make the present into a better and brigher future.