I know there doesnt need to be another religion thread, but I could find anywhere where i could fit this in.

I'm going to look at religion in another way. Not as a belief system, or a club, but as an organism. What is an organisms goal? One, to survive, two, to expand and grow in numbers. If you look at religion in this way, you see that many of its rules and practices are there simply to ensure its further existence. You're going to eternal fiery torture if you dont believe in christianity. You go live in a wonderful place of peace and love with the supreme being if you believe. Sign me up! Take a look at buddhism for instance. Life is hell, you need nothing but to meditate and achieve zen so you can leave, instead of being reincarnated back to this hell. I dont understand what the positive result of sitting around trying to escape life is, but you certianly practice your religion if you want to be one with the universe, and so the religion survives.

Religions began as a primitive way to explian the occurences around man kind. Now they have evovled into a power struggle of who can obtian the most believers and finaly "enlighten" everyone over to thier side, with the exception of the extremists, who simply tries to erradicate the other side out of disgust.

What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and the fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere.

Should I go off and make 15 threads about how atheists and their beliefs are stupid or ignorant? I could but I don't. And yet another religion thread pops up...

Hmm a view from me is Priests of hippocratic love talk of peace and christ Power is their only goal.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Should I go off and make 15 threads about how atheists and their beliefs are stupid or ignorant? I could but I don't. And yet another religion thread pops up...

Go ahead, all you have in your defence is a book written thousands of years ago by ignorant men and translated by power seekers. And you'd miss the whole point in the process, I'm not even talking about christianity in particular, Im talking about the existence of religion as a direct consequence of ignorance and the feverish defense of it because its old and therefore "important". And you dont see athiests knocking on your door telling you youre going to burn for eternity unless you believe what they do. I certianly dont push my beliefs on someone, or even tell them what they are, partly out of fear. There is only one minority in America that is unprotected by laws or its constitution (the document yes, its enforcers, no). I dont have to tell which one it is.

You know, you have your beliefs, we have ours, simple as that. I think it silly that a LOT of atheists hate the way religion tries to push itself on people, but ahteists are THE worst about trying to belittle religion and get people who are religious to be like them. A CRY OF HIPPOCRACY ON ALL OF YOU! Well, just the ones who are trying to impose their beliefs on me.......

At least when religions try to push themselves onto you they have a noble goal, they believe that they are going to save your sould from eternal damnation. Atheists are simply trying to show us how smart and superior they are to us because they don't believe in God.

What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and the fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere.
And where WOULD man kind as a whole go without the religion? The answer.....To Hell (Silently laughing at my joke)

But seriously, i'd like to know what I would do differently if I didn't believe in God, besides the free hour on sundays and the times i pray. I'd still be nice to people, i'd still be learning in school, i'd still go to college, still learn things, still get a job....hmmmm, I'm not in a rush to die and be with God, I have eternity to do that once I die.

NOTE, i do not hate atheists, I am glad you are happy with your views, i have atheist friends, and I like them just as much as my christian, muslim, and jewish friends. I only dont like the atheists who are ALWAYS at the throat of my religion. Just let me believe what i believe in peace, ahthankyou.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
You know, you have your beliefs

Do I believe there is no God?

Or do I not believe there is a God?

I don't need beliefs to live a good life.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
You know, you have your beliefs, we have ours, simple as that.

Wrong. Atheists, in the meaning of people without religion (buddists are also atheists, but not in the sense of this thread), have no faith, and no beliefs. Not believing in anything doesn't constitute belief.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
I think it silly that a LOT of atheists hate the way religion tries to push itself on people, but ahteists are THE worst about trying to belittle religion and get people who are religious to be like them.

Simply not true. Jehova's Witnesses, for example. I have never heard about atheists going around trying to sell goods that have been obsolete for the past 20 centuries. Have you?

The reson why atheists can be viewed as bashing religion is that quite plainly most religious doctrines have no place in the real world. Keeping milk and vegetables from each other, no sex before marriage, creationism, ect. are all examples of religion being obsolete and utterly useless.

But, I hear you cry, what about all the places where religion is right: Don't steal, don't kill, ect.?

But the fact is that those norms would also be present in an unreligious society, because every society will desire some measure of stability.

What we would see in a faithless society would be abolishment of all those silly norms that are hopelessly outdated.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
A CRY OF HIPPOCRACY ON ALL OF YOU! Well, just the ones who are trying to impose their beliefs on me.......

No atheist (in the sense of this thread) is trying to push any beliefs on you.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
At least when religions try to push themselves onto you they have a noble goal, they believe that they are going to save your sould from eternal damnation. Atheists are simply trying to show us how smart and superior they are to us because they don't believe in God.

Atheists who try to cure you of your religious beliefs have the noble goal of improving the world. Religion has never produced anything of any value, rationalism (and therefore by extention, atheism) has. And by the way, if by "trying to show you how smart they are" you mean that they correct any utterly unphysical nonsense (such as the flood myth) that they come across, then you are way off. They aren't trying to show how smart they are (OK, some are, but the vast majority is not), they are trying to make you realise that all those things you "knew" about the world (such as thermo's second law, the magnetic field decay) are pathetically wrong, in order to get you to rethink your world veiw.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
And where WOULD man kind as a whole go without the religion?

To conquer the galaxy.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
I only dont like the atheists who are ALWAYS at the throat of my religion. Just let me believe what i believe in peace, ahthankyou.

And I don't like those religious people who refuse to accept that their religion has never done anything good for anybody... Or rather I find it an extremely hypocritical veiw, but that doesn't mean that I can't like the person in question.

In short: I'm not asking you to believe what I say. I'm just asking you to think. I'm asking you to think without prejudice. I'm asking you to look out of your window and not overlaying everything with God...

Shadow and C'jais, do you accept as true or real that there is no God? Then you believe in something. Don't think that the word believe applies only to people who worship God...

It's interesting what athiests think of religion. like it's some scary threat to thier existence. and what they think we think. I don't know how you get some of those ideas in your head, mabee you know a religiouse person or two, but you should assume they'r all the same.

were not a plague or a viruse, If you knew of somthing no one else did wouldn't you tell anyone?

I as a christian am not trying to over populate other religions, that's up to GOD. I'm just warning people of the wrath to come if they don't repent of the wrong things they do. It's not a compatition.

buddhism isn't escaping life, your thinking about alchohol.

Stimulating points, everyone.

One thing I want to get across is that I'm NOT saying I'm right. I'm saying organised religion to me seems little more than a club with thousand year old rules. I personaly cannot disprove the existence of god. Of course not. I dont know everything, nor do I claim to, but I can't accept what organised religions cliam as truth. It's too illogical and full of holes.

I dont really think humans are ready for our future. I dont think we live up to the challenge of being a united force that could solve the mysteries of existance. Our nature is to know why, but we hold on to antiquated beliefs, taking the easy way out instead of searching for the real truths. We've aparently "solved" the universe with this magical diety that takes care of everything for us, so what's there left to know? There's nothing left to strive for, if the big question is already solved. Thats what I call going nowhere. We've nothing to do but go extinct if we're willing to accept what we're told, in some sick, retarding tradition. I'm a giant pot of apathy and dislike for most poeple. Maybe religion would change that, but I refuse to be belittled by it just so I can tell myself it'll all be ok.

Originally posted by C'jais
Do I believe there is no God?

Or do I not believe there is a God?



ToMAYto
ToMAHto

i was simply making my point.

So you don't believe in ANYTHING? You believe in SOMETHING, like, you believe in evolution methinks, if not, you probably believe in physics.....so HA! ;)

And to shadow, your post is exactly the thing that bothers me th emost about atheists. They just can't seem to accept that not everyone wants to be an atheist like them. I accept that you are not a christian.......
In short: I'm not asking you to believe what I say. I'm just asking you to think. I'm asking you to think without prejudice. I'm asking you to look out of your window and not overlaying everything with God...

But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything. You can yell at me that there is no God until you're blue in the face and I'm not going to believe you.

Q: How can you tell when someone is wrong?

A: When they try to suppress you from gaining knowledge. When they try to hinder research. When they restrain freedom of speech and resort to censoring.

If you knew Dublin is in Ireland, would you do everything in your power to stop people from trying to prove you wrong? There would be no need for that 'cause you're right.
The more people do research on the subject, the more it strenghtens your position.

To those who are now wondering what the hell I'm talking about and why I posted here >>>

A: Just felt like sharing my wisdom randomly. :D

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Shadow and C'jais, do you accept as true or real that there is no God?

No, we don't accept as true or real anything.

The keyword here is accept.

This means that we only include something in our world veiw if it can be documented to such a degree that we don't need to accept it, because we know for a fact that it is so.

But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything. You can yell at me that there is no God until you're blue in the face and I'm not going to believe you.

Show me this god of yours... You see him because you want to. If you saw him because he was there then I would be able to see him too.

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
No, we don't accept as true or real anything.

The keyword here is accept.

This means that we only include something in our world veiw if it can be documented to such a degree that we don't need to accept it, because we know for a fact that it is so.

I could say the same thing for God. I could say that I know for a fact that he exists because of the Bible but then you would come out and say that the Bible is a bunch of hogwash so its a never-ending circle.



Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Show me this god of yours... You see him because you want to. If you saw him because he was there then I would be able to see him too.

Its called faith. You guys don't seem to get it that we Christians believe by faith.

Originally posted by ET Warrior
ToMAYto
ToMAHto

i was simply making my point.

So you don't believe in ANYTHING? You believe in SOMETHING, like, you believe in evolution methinks, if not, you probably believe in physics.....so HA! ;)

You didn't get the subtle distinction between believing there is no god and not believing there is a god. Lack of belief can never, ever constitute having a belief. Not believing is that - not believing.

And no, you cannot believe in fact. You can't believe in the theory of gravity.

But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything.

Sorry, that's not evidence of anything. You're the one making the connection between nature and God. By the same non-reasoning, I could connect nature to the fan in my PC, Cthulhu, or my grandmother. It doesn't work.

You can yell at me that there is no God until you're blue in the face and I'm not going to believe you.

That's not what we're saying. There might be gods around us, but so far they haven't made their presence known, making believing in them an illogical step taken too far.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
I could say the same thing for God. I could say that I know for a fact that he exists because of the Bible but then you would come out and say that the Bible is a bunch of hogwash so its a never-ending circle.

Words alone cannot manifest a god, or make him real in any way. By the same non-reasoning, countless gods have been created merely by writing a few lines in a book, and subsequently "forgetting" to prove them.



Its called faith. You guys don't seem to get it that we Christians believe by faith.

Ahh. So, since you have now accepted that God isn't fact, you've also accepted that he is a purely subjective opinion originating from you. There is no middle ground.

I think.... to have faith.... you have to stop thinking and reasoning for a minute and just believe. You dont need any evidence for it, you just DO believe. You suspend all reason, logic, judgement, and physical observations in favor of simply believing.

I'm sorry, I cant do that. I cant suspend my reason and judgement and logic, because they are a part of me. I cant live my life according to an unseen deity who may or may not exist, as well as by thousands year old book that may or may not be legit. My life is too important to me, and I'm not going to waste it away on a maybe.

But how can I when i can look outside and SEE the brilliance of God all around me? He's everywhere and in everything.

I look outside and I see a tree. The wind is blowing, northeast, at around 15 mph. The wind is caused by varying degrees in airpressure, as well as cool air rising off the Great Lakes and coming across NY to the coast. It's deflected up the coast by the warmer air circulated up from the carribean.

I dont see the brilliance of god in this, because there are so many other more reasonable, logical, tangible, REAL explanations for all of this.

There is no possible way to prove the existence of god. You can simply choose to accept and swallow. The human need to be part of something and be important is what keeps god alive in the minds of believers. You're part of a special club where an all powerful deity acknowlegdes your existence and whom you can turn to for a feigned comfort. The fact that it delivers you from all requirement of objectivity or reason is a plus. Its easy.

The existence of religion can be explianed by known and proven social and phsycological trends. It's teachings can be better explianed by new verifyable theories.

Yet, if poeple are around long enough, I imagine we'll find out the truth, followed by a very large "I ****ING TOLD YOU SO".

I'm personally disgusted with how you guys treat each in these "religion threads". I for one think they should be banned from the senate chambers..

If you have a religion then that's great, it also means you don't need to talk about here on the internet.. (there are reasons for community churches).
If you don't have a religion that's great as well. Just don't go bashing Christians or any other religious group just because you think you have proof and facts. From where everyone is right now no one has facts, everything is just theory upon theory.

Originally posted by Lime-Light
I know there doesnt need to be another religion thread, but I could find anywhere where i could fit this in.

I'm going to look at religion in another way. Not as a belief system, or a club, but as an organism. What is an organisms goal? One, to survive, two, to expand and grow in numbers. If you look at religion in this way, you see that many of its rules and practices are there simply to ensure its further existence. You're going to eternal fiery torture if you dont believe in christianity. You go live in a wonderful place of peace and love with the supreme being if you believe. Sign me up! Take a look at buddhism for instance. Life is hell, you need nothing but to meditate and achieve zen so you can leave, instead of being reincarnated back to this hell. I dont understand what the positive result of sitting around trying to escape life is, but you certianly practice your religion if you want to be one with the universe, and so the religion survives.

Religions began as a primitive way to explian the occurences around man kind. Now they have evovled into a power struggle of who can obtian the most believers and finaly "enlighten" everyone over to thier side, with the exception of the extremists, who simply tries to erradicate the other side out of disgust.

What troubles me about this great war between beliefs, is what progress can be made? With the Christians bidding thier time untill they can be with god, the buddhists siting on thier asses meditating and the fundamentalists killing folks, were does man kind as a whole go? Nowhere.


Yah, you could look at it that way, but why would a religion want more believers? Well in Christianity it would be to save your soul from eternal torture, but I guess you could go on believing its all just a game, and that we're just trying to get the most followers...

Originally posted by Pnut_Master
If you have a religion then that's great, it also means you don't need to talk about here on the internet.. (there are reasons for community churches).
If you don't have a religion that's great as well. Just don't go bashing Christians or any other religious group just because you think you have proof and facts. From where everyone is right now no one has facts, everything is just theory upon theory.

Ahhhhhh, that is exactly what I'm trying to say. I dont want to debate about religion. I dont want to have you knock my religion, and me defend it, while i CANT defend it because there must be faith to believe and since you guys don't have it you won't get it. And i'm HAPPY for you, that you are happy living your life the way you want to. So why can't I live my life the way I want to without you ragging on me/my religion?
There is no possible way to prove the existence of god

There is no possible way to prove the non-existence of God.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
I could say the same thing for God. I could say that I know for a fact that he exists because of the Bible but then you would come out and say that the Bible is a bunch of hogwash so its a never-ending circle.

No I would say that that's circular reasoning.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Its called faith. You guys don't seem to get it that we Christians believe by faith.

We do. That's what make your belief inferior to our knowledge.

I think.... to have faith.... you have to stop thinking and reasoning for a minute and just believe. You dont need any evidence for it, you just DO believe. You suspend all reason, logic, judgement, and physical observations in favor of simply believing.

And then you can start crashing planes into buildings. While I realise that far from all religious people do so the mindset that drive religious zeal and fundamentalist suicide bombings are the same, only on different levels.

I'm sorry, I cant do that. I cant suspend my reason and judgement and logic, because they are a part of me. I cant live my life according to an unseen deity who may or may not exist, as well as by thousands year old book that may or may not be legit. My life is too important to me, and I'm not going to waste it away on a maybe.

"I believe in life before death." I can't remember who said that, but he was sooo right.

I look outside and I see a tree. The wind is blowing, northeast, at around 15 mph. The wind is caused by varying degrees in airpressure, as well as cool air rising off the Great Lakes and coming across NY to the coast. It's deflected up the coast by the warmer air circulated up from the carribean.

I dont see the brilliance of god in this, because there are so many other more reasonable, logical, tangible, REAL explanations for all of this.

LOL. Right in one.

I'm personally disgusted with how you guys treat each in these "religion threads". I for one think they should be banned from the senate chambers..

Fine by me, if you in the same action, ban religious 'reasoning' from the Chambers. But you can't enforce that, and so we Free Thinkers have to have a way to point out the vast and numerous holes in this so-called 'reasoning'.

If you have a religion then that's great, it also means you don't need to talk about here on the internet.. (there are reasons for community churches).

And for those who wish to broaden their mind by speaking with someone who isn't from his community about something that matters to him?

If you don't have a religion that's great as well. Just don't go bashing Christians or any other religious group just because you think you have proof and facts. From where everyone is right now no one has facts, everything is just theory upon theory.

We have both proof and fact. Furthermore, science has produced the technology that you are using right now in defiance of religion, not supported by it, and religion has caused genocides on a massive scale which science has not. Therefore, religion should be abolished for its uselesness and harmfulness, whereas science should be promoted for its usefulness and mindbroadening effect.

Yah, you could look at it that way, but why would a religion want more believers? Well in Christianity it would be to save your soul from eternal torture, but I guess you could go on believing its all just a game, and that we're just trying to get the most followers...

Look at it this way: Religion is a subjectively governed organisation. Since its laws are subjective, you need someone to interpret those laws. He will have a mandate that trancends logic, because if you start using logic for or agains their rulings, then you are making your decision based on what is the most objectively rational thing to do, not what is the most subjectively just thing to do.

This means that there will, no matter how you initially choose who are to govern, in time be established an 'aristocracy of belief', that dictate how people are to think on the subjects that belong in their area of jurisdiction.

Since they are also human, they will seek to increase their own power and status, by broadening the area of jurisdiction until it is all-encompassing.

At this stage the only way to increase their power will be by getting more people under their sway. All current religions (save the animistic and shamanistic) have reached this stage. Therefore the thread starter was perfectly sound reasoning.

So why can't I live my life the way I want to without you ragging on me/my religion?

See the Evolution/Creation thread for a gruesome example of what religion does to your mind.

Then read up on the history of Europe (or for that matter America), to see what atrocities religion has promoted.

Then realise that 9/11, no matter how terrifying, heaped only an infinitisimal amount of corpses on the pyre.

Therefore religion cannot be allowed to run rampant.

There is no possible way to prove the non-existence of God.

There is no way to prove that pigs cannot fly. At best you can say that no-one has ever proved that pigs can fly. But you can't prove that it isn't possible.

It seems to me that you cannot imagine the mindset of an atheist, whereas most atheists can put themselves in your stead well enough to predict your response...

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
We do. That's what make your belief inferior to our knowledge.

Knowledge of what? The non-existance of a God which you don't have and can't prove? One more time, religion doesn't teach science, it teaches that there is a God who watches over us and that those who belive in Him will go to Heaven. Science can never prove that there is no God nor can it prove that there is one. That is why religion and science are nearly un-comparable.

After readin every post here, and my head about to explode, let me say this:

I, for one, am a devout Christian. I believe in the Bible to it's entirety. I am guided by faith, and my wisdom, I believe, comes from God.

Now, before you go saying I am a nutcase, let me explain why I believe the way I believe.


I have seen things that Science cannot explain. I have felt things that science cannot explain. I have even gone so far as to prophisy(sp?) the birth of a child. One night, during service at my church, the preacher's wife was crying and nealing at the alter, and praying for something. For some reason, I got up, walked to her, touched her on the shoulder, and said: "Don't worry, sister, you will have your Baby."

Surely enough, nearly three days later, she was diagnosed pregnant. Three days. how do you explain that? Was it some sort of chemical that shocked in my brain causing the world to go forward in time to show me that she was pregnant? Of course not. I belive(or I should say KNOW), that this came from God.

As I said earlier, there is only one explanation for this. If I ever turned away from God after this experience, I would need the living crap beat out of me.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
One more time, religion doesn't teach science, it teaches that there is a God who watches over us and that those who belive in Him will go to Heaven.

The moment you say "there is", you enter the metier of science.

Obiwan: Much as I applaud your empathy I must say that it was a fairly probable guess. If you see a girl you know put down her cell phone and start crying, for example, you will be pretty sure that it's because her boyfriend just broke with her. But that's not some godsent premonition. I'd say that your 'prophesy' was based not so much on divine inspiration as on an admirable knowledge of the human animal.

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
The moment you say "there is", you enter the metier of science.

Obiwan: Much as I applaud your empathy I must say that it was a fairly probable guess. If you see a girl you know put down her cell phone and start crying, for example, you will be pretty sure that it's because her boyfriend just broke with her. But that's not some godsent premonition. I'd say that your 'prophesy' was based not so much on divine inspiration as on an admirable knowledge of the human animal.

"There is" an open can of pepsi in my refrigerator.......doesn't seem very science like to me.....;)


And how, exactly, does knowing that a girl who maybe just got broken up with have to do with a prophesy of pregnancy? I dont see the correlation. Because it was a woman crying and praying at the altar.........no real reason to suspect she is pregnant, let alone to be certain enough about it to approach said crying woman and comfort her.


These debates will never end, and you must know this. Your argument will ALWAYS be the same. Science, reasoning, blah blah blah. And then MY argument will always be the same. I simply believe. So why can't we just agree to disagree? WHY must proclaim your rightness to the world?

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
It seems to me that you cannot imagine the mindset of an atheist, whereas most atheists can put themselves in your stead well enough to predict your response...

Oh but I can imagine it. I have at points in my life questioned religion, looked at the world differently. But now i'm a firm believer in God. I can pretty much predict EVERYTHING you will say to ANYTHING i post......"You can't prove it" "Religion causes evil" "You can't prove that" "Science conquers all"


I think i've covered about 98% of the arguments you will use.

Admittedly, I only have one argument, but it's the one that works for me. I believe.

I skipped most of these posts, so hopefully joining in at the end I'm not repeating anything much.

Anyhow, I myself don't criticize christianity in attempt to sway someone to the darkside. I just do it to point out the fallacy of it. If someone got all their hope and spiritual guidance and whatnot from a baloney sandwich, well, I would point out the oddness of the baloney sandwich.

The bible is chock full of inane commandments, doubletalk, idle threats, just plain nonsense. And people use the bible to bully(Ha!) others. I don't care whether or not there is a way to prove christianity and god. It would still be stupid.

If rapture occured at this second, I still would not convert. If I saw jesus walking above the ground in front of my house, I still would not convert. If I saw on the news that there was irrefutable proof that the Ark is on Mt. Ararat, with photos and twenty scientist claiming it to be true, I still would not convert.

I am not a christian because I disbelieve in God. It is because being a christian is just not a good thing.



Just to point out, some people are too apathetic to be labeled atheist. You can call these people agnostic. Instead of lumping them all into one group. Not everyone is against you. Don't be so paranoid.

Originally posted by munik
being a christian is just not a good thing.

Well that's awfully nice of you to say...........[/sarcasm]

Some people can have "blind faith", others can not, they have to see things to prove a lot of things. I fall into the tactile group, that if I can see it, that it exists.

All I will say is that without Christianity, and it's sister religion Muslim (Based on almost the same texts), we would rid ourselves of a lot of the problems that exists now...
We would still have almost the same laws and structures in the world, since most of them came not from religion but from civilisations that existed pre-christianity.

I do not belittle those that believe in religion, only to try to point out that the text that you believe in isn't totally accurate, especially after it has been translated. We can't take the innaccuries of the years into account, since the Romans got it wrong by about 26 years in the backward application of their calander. By leaders in some of it's sects it has been taken out of context, and it is no longer considered that those that wrote it were ones who wrote in parables, and not literally.......

Originally posted by ET Warrior
I dont want to debate about religion. I dont want to have you knock my religion, and me defend it, while i CANT defend it because there must be faith to believe and since you guys don't have it you won't get it. And i'm HAPPY for you, that you are happy living your life the way you want to. So why can't I live my life the way I want to without you ragging on me/my religion?

Then go away. No one told you to come here, unless it was your god, in which case I'm sorry, its your mission to wander the abundant religion posts. Other poeple want to debate this, if you don't, ignore the religion posts.

One thing I've come to realize reading these posts, is that logic and religion are incompatible, and rational people are incompatible with illogic.

And even should christ or muhammed or whoever come down and demonstrate the existence of god, I still wouldnt submit to religion, because of all the attrocities poeple have used it to justify, through thier "interpretations" of it.

Originally posted by Lime-Light
because of all the attrocities poeple have used it to justify, through thier "interpretations" of it.

Lol then I wouldn't want to become an athiest because of all the atrocities that have been commited by athiests... (ex.... Hitler and his trying to rid of all the Jews.)

(Sorry if the athiest thing came out harsh... but I was countering your point.)

And what happened to my post? Was it deleated?

Originally posted by Lime-Light

One thing I've come to realize reading these posts, is that logic and religion are incompatible, and rational people are incompatible with illogic.

And even should christ or muhammed or whoever come down and demonstrate the existence of god, I still wouldnt submit to religion, because of all the attrocities poeple have used it to justify, through thier "interpretations" of it.

LOL, well see what you guys are doing isn't really logical, you're saying that you don't care if religion is right or not, because of all the awful things PEOPLE have done in the name of it. But if a thousand scientists and I went out tomorrow and said that were going to kill all of the stupid people in the name of a more advanced and scientific world, would you stop using science just because of the awful things some PEOPLE did in the name of it? When scientists made the A-bomb and they dropped it on Hiroshima, does that make you stop using science or technology just because of what some people use it for?

Well, while we're talking about big things that certain belief systems did for the world, why dont we talk about the good as well as the bad?

Science: Vaccines, astronomy, all aspects of medicine, chemistry, glass, styrofoam, the car, plastic, the space program, TVs, the light bulb, the camera, the telephone, and many, many, many free thinkers.

Religion: ?________________________ ( <---- Fill in the blank, and be honest)

Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Religion: ?________________________ ( <---- Fill in the blank, and be honest)


ME!!!!! :D

Religion: Gives some people a reason to live on. Without religion suicide rates would sky rocket.

Originally posted by ShockV1.89
Well, while we're talking about big things that certain belief systems did for the world, why dont we talk about the good as well as the bad?

Science: Vaccines, astronomy, all aspects of medicine, chemistry, glass, styrofoam, the car, plastic, the space program, TVs, the light bulb, the camera, the telephone, and many, many, many free thinkers.

Religion: ?________________________ ( <---- Fill in the blank, and be honest)

Once again!!! SCIENCE AND RELIGION ARE NOT ABLE TO BE COMPARED IN THIS MANNER BECAUSE SCIENCE COVERS MILLIONS OF THINGS THAT RELIGION WASN'T MEANT TO COVER!!!For example...

Science: How does mitosis occur?
Religion: Who is God?

Science: Why is the sky blue?
Religion: Does God love me?

Science: What is snow made of?
Religion: Is there an afterlife?


Do you see? These things cannot be compared. Religion teaches how to get to Heaven and that there is a God. Science cannot disprove the existance of a God, science does not teach how to get to Heaven. Get my drift?

I was simply responding to people talking about how science did bad things (like the a-bomb and such). I was just trying to show that it's done very good things.

In addition, I was actually ASKING for the religious people here to tell what religion has done for the world. I mean, I literally want to know. Dont worry, I'm not trying to compare.

Originally posted by Psydan
But if a thousand scientists and I went out tomorrow and said that were going to kill all of the stupid people in the name of a more advanced and scientific world, would you stop using science just because of the awful things some PEOPLE did in the name of it?

Science is a tool, not a belief system, which many of you don't get.

Science is the opposite of believing. It's showing what's real, proving and finding evidence, which is what religion have this strange aversion towards. While science is suspension of belief, religion is suspension of logic. This is clearly evident in how religious people twist the past of the Earth into how they would like to perceive it, not how it is objectively seen.

Science is a way of thinking, not a cause in itself. What you describe is social darwinism - improving our collective genepool and stuff like that. The problem is, then we're already talking about a belief, and well into the Nietzschian "ьber mench" and whatnot. Science is merely a tool for understanding the world - if it entails killing people, we're well into beliefs and far removed from the logic of preserving the race of man.

"There is" an open can of pepsi in my refrigerator.......doesn't seem very science like to me.....

Yet it is. You can see there is a can of pepsi. It's interpretation of data, it's science. You don't "believe" there's a soda can in your fridge - you can clearly deduce, prove and see evidence for the positive of that statement. Now, if you were to postulate that there would be an elephant in your fridge, then the positive proof of that assertion would be quickly rooted out. But the negative proof of it, that there is not an elephant in the fridge would be impossible to ascertain given that you work under the assumption that said elephant had the ability to turn invisible and shrink in size to fit the fridge.

In the dark ages long gone, people thought the world was indeed flat. It was logical to assume so, since people back then didn't have any means to tell otherwise - why in the name of God would the earth be round since any fool can see that it's completely flat? While a flat earth was the barenaked reality and nature back then, there was no need to build another layer on top of that. Where is the logical inference that the sun is orbiting the sun, or that the earth is standing atop three elephants riding around the universe on a whale? It's not there, there's no reason to believe it. We can only make logical guesses and assumptions on the things we know - anything else and you could be considered midly delusional.

We can likely never disprove God. But there's no positive evidence for Him, making believing in Him a futile and worthless effort, bordering on insanity. It's not logically sane to believe there exist a government conspiracy, hiding extra-terristials on earth, or that Sai Baba is an avatar of some supernatural power. Or believing that Jesus is the Saviour, for that matter.

We can only reason from what we know, and work a logical way towards the unknown. Projecting God into anything we don't know is folly at best, and raving mad at worst - as evidenced in the history of science, reasoning is taking the place and filling the gaps in God's place, making his territory of the unexplained smaller by the day.

Religion: Gives some people a reason to live on. Without religion suicide rates would sky rocket.

Without going too much into social darwinism, the people that cannot live without accepting that they are at heart truly insignificant, and obey their primate desire to invent something to watch over them and place themselves above mere nature, are blind to the pitiless reality in which we exist, for better or worse.

In fact, if this silly postulate was indeed true, the people of my country would be commiting suicide on a huge scale - it's simply not evident that atheists kill themselves due to realizing their perceived hollow existance.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Do you see? These things cannot be compared. Religion teaches how to get to Heaven and that there is a God.

As I said before, religion is the antithesis to logic and reasoning.

When you're purely using logic and your senses, you'll realize that the earth was not created how some people want it to, and that there's no need to believe in a supernatural entity.

In short: Cling to religion and place yourself further from logical reasoning, which produces such useful tools as electricity and nuclear weapons.

Originally posted by C'jais
Yet it is. You can see there is a can of pepsi. It's interpretation of data, it's science. You don't "believe" there's a soda can in your fridge - you can clearly deduce, prove and see evidence for the positive of that statement. Now, if you were to postulate that there would be an elephant in your fridge, then the positive proof of that assertion would be quickly rooted out. But the negative proof of it, that there is not an elephant in the fridge would be impossible to ascertain given that you work under the assumption that said elephant had the ability to turn invisible and shrink in size to fit the fridge.

Alright then.............."There is" a God. BWAHAHA your science has proven the existance of my God....BWAHAHAHAHA...;)

As for those saying "what has religion done? ". Im out of time, so Im gonna keep it simple, but if you believe like me, then religion is in the buissness of saving souls for eternity... That's a goal, and if you believe in A heaven and hell, well, thats the Good, but how did we go from "Religion has done bad things, I wouldn't be a Christian if God came down and walked on my lawn" to "Science has done a lot of "good" things, so I use its benefits"...
BTW, Im asking that you ASSUME that religion is a truth, not just a belief system.

Originally posted by Psydan
BTW, Im asking that you ASSUME that religion is a truth, not just a belief system.

But all religions are belief systems and the pure truth at the same time. Every religion saves its followers from a fate in hell.

Because all religions claim they are the truth, I'm asking for evidence of what good the individual religions have done on an objective, secular basis, because that is the only thing that matters when we aren't in a position to judge the truthfulness of each belief system.

I am able to set myself in your shoes and see the world as something God built, but what is the point of it all? The only thing I'll get from it is a sense of juvenile self-affirmation and reassurance that something is looking after me and holds me safe, and an infantile feeling of knowing I'm right without bothering to check if I am right.

Since the world cannot live on happy toughts alone, I'm choosing to see it in an objective, secular way where we're concerned with building a better future - and that means looking past petty beliefs and high 'n mighty morals that are only hindering the literal saving of millions of people.

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Lol then I wouldn't want to become an athiest because of all the atrocities that have been commited by athiests... (ex.... Hitler and his trying to rid of all the Jews.)

Hitler was not an atheist in the sense of this thread: He had a religion: Nazism. But even if we assume that Hitler was an Atheist in the sense of this thread then it would still not have mattered, because he did what he did because he was a Nazist, not because he was not a Christian. See below.

Psydan
Bantha Fodder

LOL, well see what you guys are doing isn't really logical, you're saying that you don't care if religion is right or not, because of all the awful things PEOPLE have done in the name of it. But if a thousand scientists and I went out tomorrow and said that were going to kill all of the stupid people in the name of a more advanced and scientific world, would you stop using science just because of the awful things some PEOPLE did in the name of it? When scientists made the A-bomb and they dropped it on Hiroshima, does that make you stop using science or technology just because of what some people use it for?

You are forgetting that we do not blame religion for what has been done in its name, but for the actions that it has induced. In the example above, I would not blame science for some scientists who had gone mad, or used it to justify their idiological crusade. I would, on the other hand, blame science if the rationalistic, critical, and non-dogmatic mindset promoted by science forced someone to do something like the outlined. But how likely is that? Methinks very unlikely.

Compairing the above example to a religious one: Ayatollah Khomeni (sp?) issues a Fatwa against Salman Rushdie. If we assume that this was done purely because Khomeni wanted to create an outer enemy to consolidate his power, this wouldn't make me blame Islam or religion in general for the Fatwa (though more than likely he was also motivated by his religious beliefs). What I would blame religion in general, and Islam in particular, for is the fact that this Fatwa forces every zealous Muslim to pursue the death of Salman Rushdie. And I do mean forces.

Pnut_Master
Bantha

Religion: Gives some people a reason to live on. Without religion suicide rates would sky rocket.

Granted, for some people. Though I find it very, very cowardly not to be able to handle the infinite indifference of the Universe, I am not to tell who should live and die. But saving a few spineless people still leaves a looong way to excusing the millenia of oppression caused by religion.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

Religion: Who is God?

[...]

Religion: Does God love me?

[...]

Religion: Is there an afterlife?

When you say "is", you enter the metier of science. There go the first and last statements. The second one requires the existance of God, which includes an "is", and so is meaningless. So there is (no pun intended) in fact an overlapping field.

C'jais
Prophet of Nothing

We can only reason from what we know, and work a logical way towards the unknown. Projecting God into anything we don't know is folly at best, and raving mad at worst - as evidenced in the history of science, reasoning is taking the place and filling the gaps in God's place, making his territory of the unexplained smaller by the day.

And could be outright harmful. Think of medicine. Once the Church told people that disease was the punishment that God sent to man for his sins... This meant that there was no need to do research on the topic, because there was already an explanation. Case closed. And I'm not just making it up, the Church did get quite pissed off when people started challenging this view.

C'jais
Prophet of Nothing

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Religion: Gives some people a reason to live on. Without religion suicide rates would sky rocket.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, if this silly postulate was indeed true, the people of my country would be commiting suicide on a huge scale - it's simply not evident that atheists kill themselves due to realizing their perceived hollow existance.

Not quite true, C'Jais. We have many 'sleeping cells' of Christianity in Denmark. But fortunately their influence on the law has been largely curtailed.

ET Warrior
Avalanche Fan

Alright then.............."There is" a God. BWAHAHA your science has proven the existance of my God....BWAHAHAHAHA...

I fail to see what you base that statement on.

Psydan
Bantha Fodder

As for those saying "what has religion done? ". Im out of time, so Im gonna keep it simple, but if you believe like me, then religion is in the buissness of saving souls for eternity... That's a goal, and if you believe in A heaven and hell, well, thats the Good, but how did we go from "Religion has done bad things, I wouldn't be a Christian if God came down and walked on my lawn" to "Science has done a lot of "good" things, so I use its benefits"...
BTW, Im asking that you ASSUME that religion is a truth, not just a belief system.

I am glad that you use the word "assume" rather than "believe". That means that we Atheists can play the game too. However your assessment is irrelevant, if not flat out wrong. This thread concerns itself solely with the real world, y'see.

C'jais
Prophet of Nothing

I am able to set myself in your shoes and see the world as something God built

Another benefit of D&D, apart from the improved reading skills (just to bug Hotrod).

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Hitler was not an atheist in the sense of this thread: He had a religion: Nazism. But even if we assume that Hitler was an Atheist in the sense of this thread then it would still not have mattered, because he did what he did because he was a Nazist, not because he was not a Christian. See below.

Ah so you're chosing to ignore him because he wasn't a Christian? And I don't think that Nazism was a religion in a sense that Christianity, Islam or Buddihsm is.

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

That is one of the definitons of religion. I could say the same for
space travel, or the war against terrorism that Bush is trying to wage. Space travel is an activity pursued with zeal and the war against terrorism is a cause pursued with zeal. Are they religions? No.

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
You are forgetting that we do not blame religion for what has been done in its name, but for the actions that it has induced. In the example above, I would not blame science for some scientists who had gone mad, or used it to justify their idiological crusade. I would, on the other hand, blame science if the rationalistic, critical, and non-dogmatic mindset promoted by science forced someone to do something like the outlined. But how likely is that? Methinks very unlikely.

How about the Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (sp?) killing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Science caused that A-bomb to be build, scince made that plane that dropped the A-bomb. It was all sciences fault. Why do you still believe in science after that?

Also, you wouldn't blame science if a scientist went mad and did something horrible? What if those Christians who went on the Crusades were mad? Would you still blame them for what they did?

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
Compairing the above example to a religious one: Ayatollah Khomeni (sp?) issues a Fatwa against Salman Rushdie. If we assume that this was done purely because Khomeni wanted to create an outer enemy to consolidate his power, this wouldn't make me blame Islam or religion in general for the Fatwa (though more than likely he was also motivated by his religious beliefs). What I would blame religion in general, and Islam in particular, for is the fact that this Fatwa forces every zealous Muslim to pursue the death of Salman Rushdie. And I do mean forces.

Key word there in the last sentence. Forces. The Muslims weren't doing it for their own good, they were doing it because they were forced to. What if that Ayatollah Khomeni was mad. Would you still blame him? Cause you sure wouldn't blame a scientist if they went mad and did something very wrong.


Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
When you say "is", you enter the metier of science. There go the first and last statements. The second one requires the existance of God, which includes an "is", and so is meaningless. So there is (no pun intended) in fact an overlapping field.

"Look, there is a boy." "Where is Bob?" "That is so awesome."

Are those scientific? You're probably going to go out onto some far limb and try and twist science to provide answers in order to prove that they are. You're twisting science in order to try and prove me wrong.

I could phrase it another way. "When did the earth form?" Hmm there's no "there is" or "is" so it must not be science. Of courese you're going to come back and say, "when you use the word when you're entereing the metier of science." Ok how about "How did the earth form?" There's no "there is", "is", or "when" so is it science? You're going to come back and say "well when you say how you're entering the metier of science."

Stop twisting science in every little possible way to try and prove us wrong.

The fact remains that there are better explanations for world phenomena than "God did it." I mean, these are tangible, real solutions that are far more feasible than simply blaming it on some deity that may or may not exist.

Lets stop dancing around words. I cant prove god doesnt exist, which is why I'm not an atheist. He may very well exist, and if he does, AND was the architect of the universe.... bravo to him, nicely done.

But nobody, and I mean nobody, can prove God DOES exist. Only God can do this. God should be the last, last explanation when people wonder why something happened, mostly because in THIS universe, there is almost definitley a physical reason.

As for organized religion... it's no real surprise that people got stupid about it. Any belief system that becomes organized goes weird and gets away from its original purpose. Just look at the new Black Panther Party... :rolleyes:

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

And I don't think that Nazism was a religion in a sense that Christianity, Islam or Buddihsm is.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is one of the definitons of religion. I could say the same for
space travel, or the war against terrorism that Bush is trying to wage. Space travel is an activity pursued with zeal and the war against terrorism is a cause pursued with zeal. Are they religions? No.

No. The problem with that argument is that these activities are not pursued with zeal.

Zeal is: "Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance." according to www.dictionary.com).

The key here is: Devotion. It is not devotion that drives these people (ok, maybe el Presidente, but his "war on terror" sounds kinda like a new Crusade to me anyway).

And if we can now quit these silly wordgames and get back to the real issue:

Hitler did not kill people because he was an Atheist (which he wasn't anyway). While Urban II may or may not have ordered the Crusades for materialistic reasons (there are quite a few), those who went on them most certainly did so out of faith in Christianity.

That is the real issue here: Religion forces compulsive behavior and, in the most extreme of cases, outright madness. Therefore it is bad. There is no proof that Atheism causes madness, or compulsive behavior. Therefore Atheism is not bad, in this respect.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

How about the Atomic Bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (sp?) killing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Science caused that A-bomb to be build, scince made that plane that dropped the A-bomb.

But it was not science that made people use these things. I obviously can provide no religious analogy for this, as religion has never invented anything useful, but basically it is like saying that the guy who invented the baseball bat is responsible for the mugging of old ladies if the mugger used a baseball bat.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

Why do you still believe in science after that?

I don't. And I never have.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

Also, you wouldn't blame science if a scientist went mad and did something horrible? What if those Christians who went on the Crusades were mad? Would you still blame them for what they did?

You are talking about two different things here: First you ask me what I would say about science if some scientists went mad. Well, since science has not had anything to do with it, I wouldn't blame it on science.

Then you ask me whether I would blame a madman for his actions. Yes I would. But I wouldn't blame the club, profession, religion, or whatever he was a member of unless they had something to do with him developing the said insanity.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

Key word there in the last sentence. Forces. The Muslims weren't doing it for their own good, they were doing it because they were forced to. What if that Ayatollah Khomeni was mad. Would you still blame him? Cause you sure wouldn't blame a scientist if they went mad and did something very wrong.

What I meant by forced was a compulsive behavior induced by their faith. And yes, I would blame Khomeni even if he was mad. And I would still blame a madman for his atrocities, no matter how much scientist he was, thankyeverymuch, so the last accusation was rather unfounded in my very honest opinion.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

"Look, there is a boy." "Where is Bob?" "That is so awesome."

Are those scientific? You're probably going to go out onto some far limb and try and twist science to provide answers in order to prove that they are. You're twisting science in order to try and prove me wrong.

You are talking about physical phenomena which all belong in the metier of science ('cept perhaps the last one, but that is a subjective statement, as opposed to the objective (and objectively wrong) statement "there is a god").

So no, I don't need to twist anything.

Reborn Outcast
Very, Very Muscular

I could phrase it another way. "When did the earth form?" Hmm there's no "there is" or "is" so it must not be science.

There is a logical error in that: I said that if you have a sentence with the words "there is", then you are talking about the real, physical world. The parameter here is "if you have a sentence with the words "there is"". The logical operation is a "then", and the conclusion is "you are talking about the real, physical world".

What I said is that if you fulfill the parameter, then the conclusion is correct. I did not say anything about what happened if you did not fulfill the parameter. Your response assumes that I did.

An analogous situation would be:

I say that: "Cows do not fly."

Or:

X=Cow => Y=Can't fly.

To which you respond: "Since a pig is not a cow, then pigs can fly, right?"

Or:

X=/=Cow=>Y=/=Can't fly.

Sorry, but the rules of logic don't work that way.

ShockV1.89
Sith Lord

Any belief system that becomes organized goes weird and gets away from its original purpose. Just look at the new Black Panther Party...

Which is yet another advantage that science has over religion (apart from not being a belief system): It's not organised, in the sense of having a 'government'. It's more like an open-source program: There are many contributers, but no 'big boss'.

BTW: What is this "Black Panther" thing?

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
When you say "is", you enter the metier of science.

I fail to see what you base that statement on.

I base my statement on the fact that you said, whenever you say "IS" you enter into science. Therefore, saying "There is a God" is apparently science, and therefore must be true. ;)

I still want an answer for what I posted earlier. How can science explain, or anything other then God, explain my experiance?

I don't buy into that "it was a good guess" thing.....

Although it's something of a stretch, some sort of ESP could be to blame. I certainly consider that more of a possibility than divine intervention, although again, I dont have any real evidence to it.

The Black Panther Party was a militant group in the US whose aim was to reform racial inequalities through a showing of force and aggressive protest. They were volatile, but actually fairly noble for the time. The new Black Panther Party, however, is basically a whole bunch of black supremists in disguise. Really a sorry shadow of the original entity, and a good example of what happens when radicals get a hold of a belief system and an organization. (Another example would be in the French Revolution, which started nice, and then the radical fundamentalists got a hold of it... but thats an extreme)