<TR><td bgcolor=#00000 valign=top><font color="000000">.</font color><td bgcolor=#00000><font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="red" size="2"> Which side are you on?
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
Considering myself an "independant", I just registered as "Reform."
I disagree with many things on both the Republican and Democrat sides, which is sad, because they hold a virtual monopoly on the political system of the good ol' US of A.
Kurgan
"Go Pat, Go!"
<TR><td bgcolor=#00000 valign=top><font color="000000">.</font color><td bgcolor=#00000><font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="red" size="2"> Anybody have anything else to say on the topic?
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
Umm. Niether. Both sides tell you what you want to hear and once they get into office it's payday for them!
Honestly though, I approach voting on the basis of voting for "the lesser of two evils."
exactly.
http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/election/obey.gif)
lettuce, anyone?
------------------
http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/election/tweedles.jpg)
i was going to make these graphics <font size="4">bigger<font size="2">, but i couldn't help but to <font size="4">restrain<font size="2"> myself.
http://www.starwars.com/snapshot/1999/20/img/merchant_sm.jpg) <font size="1">
[This message has been edited by lightbulba (edited August 08, 2000).]
Do you americans(imported europeans actually) have to make a show of everything?
EVEN THE MOST BORING THING IN THE WORLD: POLITICS!!!
------------------
No!
I am your father.
of course we do! how else would we get attention?
------------------
<font size="1">
http://www.starwars.com/snapshot/1999/20/img/merchant_sm.jpg)
[This message has been edited by lightbulba (edited August 08, 2000).]
I'm with the Republicans!
Go, Bush, go!
I don't think I will be able to stand it if Gore wins, it would be like Clinton all over again- and who in their right mind would want that?
------------------
"I prefer a straight fight to all this jumpin' around."
Feel free to visit my Fan Site:
Mark-enobi's Site (
http://fan.starwars.com/MarkenobisSite/HomeScreen.html)
Ha ha Pedro!
"Imported European"? That certainly makes for more chuckles than "Anglo-American" that I always have to check in surveys.
And yes! Americans have to make a big show out of everything. You don't think we are known as 'ugly Americans' in other parts of the world for being quiet?
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif) Hee hee.
You think Americans make a big show you should come here to Texas (Even Gov Bush has raised several million more $$$ than Al Gore). Personally, I would prefer to be known as a Texan first and American second (Being Texas was it's own country before being annexed into the States). But Texans do everything bigger than Americans and *gasp* there are a lot of Americans that can't stand Texans!
The Americans have controlled their fear... now only their hatred can destroy us!
MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (cue lightning and thunder)
[This message has been edited by Orbvs_Terrarvm (edited August 08, 2000).]
<TR><td bgcolor=#00000 valign=top><font color="000000">.</font color><td bgcolor=#00000><font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="red" size="2">I am with Markenobi. I am a Republican myself. It would be Clinton all over again. And then who is next? Hillary? Oh, please.... Give me a break. :P
Orbvs_Terrarvm: Clinton is the one who tells you what you want to hear and then lies in the Oval Office.
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
being from New York City, I consider myself a New Yorker before an American. And I really hope Hillary doesn't win the senate race in New York, that would really suck.
As for my political ideologies, I figure I'm pretty much down the middle, as are most Americans.
The Republican and Democratic parties are almost identical anyway, there are no more really serious issues anymore. Case in point: if you go back way into the 1840's and 50's, our country was a mere shade of what it is now, but the battle lines between the political parties were neatly drawn, the big issue of the time being slavery and what to do with newly admitted states, it was so divided that it led to our Civil War. Compared to an ideology that changed our country the way slavery did, the major issues of today don't even compare.
The dividing lines between our two major parties have become overlapping shades of gray (if I may coin a phrase).
So, I'm voting for Ralph Nader!!!
------------------
Kylilin, Jedi Master and silly guy
Nice
http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kulilin3.gif)
[This message has been edited by Kylilin (edited August 08, 2000).]
<TR><td bgcolor=#00000 valign=top><font color="000000">.</font color><td bgcolor=#00000><font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="red" size="2"> One major issue would be partial birth abortion. Democrats support it, Republicans oppose it. Murdering babies every day is a major issue. In fact, your Civil War issue and the abortion issue are basically the same. Killing for the wrong cause.
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
[This message has been edited by Jedi Master Mace Windu (edited August 09, 2000).]
im republican. alot of people say i am because it has the word "Republic" in it
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)
------------------
http://www.swdatabase.com/multimedia/pictures/obiwan.gif) "Your path lies along a different path than mine." - Ben Kenobi You will be missed Sir Alec Guiness.
I actually don't hold strictly to either party, since I don't agree wholeheartedly with either views. It is sad that the political scene is so divided on party lines, even Washington warned agaisnt that. And most of the time it seems that it's only about re-election and money, regardless of the party. Sometimes, it is the lesser of two evils, and when it comes down to that, you go with the candidate you can stand the most. I won't vote for Nader just because he's neither Rep or Dem; I'd vote for him only if I agreed with his stance.
Regarding Partial Birth Abortion, I'm against that method, since there are many opportunities before that point of a pregnancy for a woman to decide to abort or not...and the practice of that type of abortion is barbaric.
This time, I'm going with Bush, all the way. Not that I agree with al he wants to do, nor do I trust that he'll do all he's promising (as I wouldn't any politician), but I like that he's taking a stand for SOMETHING, and I hope he pitches his tent and keeps it there.
That is something about Clinton/Gore that I've hated- they flip-flop and re-nig soooo much. I'll support someone who'll say "This is what I'm about, and this is what I'll do" at this point, even if I don't totally agree with their camp. IMO, a politician should go by his conscience, views, opinions, etc. and do it, not rely on polls to try to minimize damage.
<TR><td bgcolor=#00000 valign=top><font color="000000">.</font color><td bgcolor=#00000><font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="red" size="2"> We'll just have to wait and see.... Who knows? Maybe Bush will keep all these promises tht he is saying? But I just don't want Gore to be the next President Of The USA.
Who do you think will win this 2000 election?
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
This is my opinion
ALL POLITICTS SUCK! THEY SHOULD BURN IN HELL!
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/mad.gif)
------------------
Yes, the all powerful Jawaman Has becom the ultimate "Darth Jawaman"
Then who's supposed to run the country, a guy with a funny moustache called Adolf?
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)
------------------
No!
I am your father.
Why not?
------------------
Yes, the all powerful Jawaman Has becom the ultimate "Darth Jawaman"
But can we stand another George Bush?
Just because he has money, a famous dad, and a goofy grin doesn't mean he should be president!
I oppose Al Gore because I disagree with his stance and actions on many issues. I disagree with Bush because of his inaction on many fronts, and the blundering way he handles things. He claimed no innocent person has ever been executed in Texas. Yeah right!
The "lesser of two evils" approach is flawed. Why? Because you're still choosing an "evil," aren't you?
Issues here man.. that's what matter.
The Reform party promises to keep us out of foreign wars, reform immigration, protect constitutional freedoms (especially 1st and 2nd Amendments), and will oppose abortion (their nominee Pat Buchanan will anyway).
www.buchananreform.com) (
http://www.buchananreform.com)
I think Ralph Nader and the Green party have some good ideas, however I disagree with their stance on abortion for example, plus they have only gotten less than 1% in all the times they have run.
Same with the Libertarians, good ideas, though I disagree with some of it, and they got less than 1%.
Ross Perot (who started the Reform party) had a good chance (nearly 20% at one point)if he hadn't quit...
The only wasted vote is no vote.
Each to his own.. but for the sake of all that's good, VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE!
Kurgan
Originally posted by Darth Jawaman:
Why not?
because that my friend, is called fascism. And fascism sucks.
Nothing personnal, but your response is a crock.
I'm sure that if you researched the subject, you'd know that many americans fought and died to keep that bastard outta our country.
I for one am happy that I'm not speaking german and eating Saur Kraut.
the13thJedi
------------------
http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/select/2000/28/img/select_one.jpg)
Hey now, there's nothing wrong with Germans.
And it wasn't Hitler who attacked us, it was the Japanese (unless you're not talking about the US, in which case I apologize).
The trouble is with Nazism... which entails some rather unpleasant ideas, racism and the suppression of basic human freedoms for example. These problematic ideologies were used by corrupt and power-hungry men to wage war on humanity, and that came to a horrible result.
Kurgan
I know there isn't anything wrong with Germans. But had Hitler won the war, it would still be known as Nazi Germany.
And FYI, The Germans were planning a large strike against the continental US weeks just before the war had ended. If allied forces hadn't succeded in taking Berlin, we'd be in a heap of trouble right about now.
I forgot about the rest of your post Kurg, so I'll post my thoughts on that later
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)
the13thJedi
------------------
http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/select/2000/28/img/select_one.jpg)
Really? Well I suppose one could speculate.. they never actually attacked us. The reason we went to war, was because of Pearl Harbor.. which we supposedly could have prevented. The idea was that this was the "excuse" the Hawks (those in favor of war) needed to enter WWII.
Again, supposedly the Atom Bomb was intended for Hitler, but since Germany was defeated, we used it on Japan....
Yeah, we got off a bit. ; )
I guess when it comes to politics, people seem to assume that you have to vote for one of the two major parties. I disagree with that idea. I mean it's true some folks will just vote with the guy who looks the best, or the guy they think is going to win (they want to be on the "winning" team). Or they just vote in the party they have always been with, etc.
I say vote your conscience, ie: for the candidate that most closely represents your own views on the important issues ("important" of course is up to the individual to discern).
Even if your particular candidate doesn't win, at least you can be secure in the knowledge that you did YOUR PART as a citizen to contribute to the cause you identified with, not simply one that some bigwig told you to support.
And further on that issue, if we all decide to vote for a third party, that sends a strong message to the two "major" parties that they aren't addressing the issues we are concerned about. That's what Perot did in '92/'96. Alot of key issues he championed became front and center in succeeding campaigns. Politicians do listen....
Now don't get me started on the "mass media" stuff... about 70% of the media in America has self-identified as "Liberal." Then you have Fox News which tends to be Conservative. But third parties don't get alot of coverage, except negatively.
They say stuff like: Nader will take away votes from Gore... Buchanan will take away votes from Bush. Of course that isn't necessarily true in either case.
That assumes they were going to vote for X then changed their mind to vote for Y. Perhaps they were not going to vote AT ALL until candidate Y entered the race. Alot of people simply don't vote...
I think that Third Parties (Reform, Green, Libertarian, etc) should be given a chance if they have popular support, not just some CNN Poll. I mean who runs those news polls anyhow? Mainly the liberal media!
Let them into the debates and put them on the national ballot. Give them fair and honest TV coverage. That's democracy.. that's freedom of choice for voters.
For a list of who's "in" this year:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/resources/whosin.whosout/index.html)
Kurgan
www.buchananreform.com) (
http://www.buchananreform.com)
http://buchananreform.com/bio/scan2.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited August 18, 2000).]
I was just kidding about that adolf thing.
------------------
Yes, the all powerful Jawaman Has becom the ultimate "Darth Jawaman"
I'm just going to vote for the best man for the job.
At thispoint I don't think it is going to be Bush or Gore. Here's Why:
-We don't need another Bush puking at a dinner in China.
-We don't need another president who is always getting caught with his pants dowm.
It's things like these that make this country look bad. That's my thoughts.
the13thJedi
Maybe one of us in the message board shoudld run.
Then we could vote wuith a clear conscience!
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/tongue.gif)
<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="#117DF4">
I didn't think my topic would last this long!
But Kurgan, don't you think that the Reform party and all those other ones don't stand a chance at this point in time?
Also, I don't want another Clinton. Gore is planning on stealing people'
hard-earned money and giving it to people who are to lazy to get off their butts and earn some money. Not to mention he supports abortion. The American people in general are so stupid. Clinton lies under oath, then the American people let him stay in office? that is stupid!!!!!
Americans are no better off than Nazis or Communists. If you don't believe me, then look at the Mckinley administration and its evil deeds in the Philippines. Anyways, that's my opinion.
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
Go To The Rogue Federation Board @
http://pub22.ezboard.com/broguefederation)
This guy here makes the most sense politically thean anyone else ive ever heard. You guys should check out his website sometime.
www.greens.org/jellobiafra) (
http://www.greens.org/jellobiafra)
http://www.greens.org/jellobiafra/bat.gif)
Historically, I've liked the Democrats because they tend to be Socially liberal, and the Republicans because they tended to be fiscally conservative. However, recently this Republican virtue has been tossed to the wayside as they rush to make huge tax cuts and send the Federal budget into deficit once more, as in the Reagan-Bush era.
Sorry, we've got a $5 trillion+ debt, and now is not the time to cut taxes. Once we get the debt paid off, then sure, let's cut taxes. I mean, I'm for lower taxes just as much as the next guy/gal. However, when one owes a huge debt, one does not purposely lower ones income. And before anyone says, "Yes, but the government will make up the loss in taxes because the economy will grow". I'm very familiar with that argument, and I have two comments to rebut it:
1. Although the economy will grow due to decreased taxes, it will not grow at a rate fast enough to replace the lost tax revenue. It's not a one-to-one correlation. Meaning, 10% lower taxes does not equal a 10% increase in the economic output.
2. If the available cash flow to the entire country were to increase by 10%, then inflation would roughly increase by 10%. Greenspan has strongly urged against the tax cuts that the Republicans are calling for, for this very reason.
The impression I get from the huge, proposed, Republican tax cuts is that they're trying to use them as a bribe to the American people to get themselves re-elected, regardless of whether or not is the best thing for the country.
Due to this sudden exodus of fiscal common-sense from the Republican party, I'd have to now say that my loyalties have shifted from being neutral to be more aligned with the Democratic party, although there has been no change whatsoever in my own personal views.
------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...
[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited August 21, 2000).]
<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="#117DF4"> However, is it right that Clinton lies in the Oval Office under oath?
And as I have said before, Gore wants to take people hard-earned money and give to lazy people.
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
Go To The Rogue Federation Board @
http://pub22.ezboard.com/broguefederation)
Jedi Master Mace Windu,
Originally posted by Jedi Master Mace Windu:
...And as I have said before, Gore wants to take people hard-earned money and give to lazy people...
...please support this accusation with irrefutable evidence, please.
[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited August 21, 2000).]
<font face="BernardMod BT"><font color="#117DF4">
OK. The only problem is that I heard him say something about it in his acceptance speech in LA but I cannot seem to find a copy of it on the Net. Do you know of one, Vagabond?
Also, do you think it is right that Clinton lied in the Oval Office? Or that abortion is right?
------------------
Micro**** mind tricks don't work on me....
http://fan.starwars.com/Fishsticks/files/MadeWindu/Mace.gif)
Jedi Microsith Warrior
Go To The Rogue Federation Board @
http://pub22.ezboard.com/broguefederation)
Jedi Master Mace,
What does Clinton's actions have to do with this discussion? He's not the one running for President. Otherwise, let's talk about Nixon's actions. Or how about how both Reagan and Bush lied about Iran/Contra. It's absurd because these events are irrelevant to race between George W. B. and Al Gore.
And to stay on topic, the question was whether we were Republican or Democrat. To restate and summarize, previously I was independent, but do to the illogical abandonment of fiscal responsibility by the Republican party, I'm finding myself more in line with the Democratic party for the purposes of paying down the national debt before any tax cuts are implemented, which I will vigorously support at that time.
------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...
Originally posted by Vagabond:
What does Clinton's actions have to do with this discussion? He's not the one running for President. Otherwise, let's talk about Nixon's actions. Or how about how both Reagan and Bush lied about Iran/Contra. It's absurd because these events are irrelevant to race between George W. B. and Al Gore.
Vagabond.
We witness past presidents make horrible mistakes. We learn from that... sometimes.
When a new candidate comes along, we recognize the signs before we allow them to make that same mistake again.
In most cases though, the mistake is repeated, and we are all the fools of fortune. It's a vicious cycle.
That's what how I interprit the relevancy between Now and Then.
-the13thJedi
------------------
http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/select/2000/28/img/select_one.jpg)
[This message has been edited by the13thJedi (edited August 22, 2000).]
I guess I don't buy the "since nobody but Gore or Bush has a chance of winning, we must vote for one of them" attitude either.
Voting for a guy you don't want to be president, is only helping him get elected.
Ever hear of the straw that broke the camel's back? Sometimes one person can tip the scales (not getting any delusions here, but stranger things have happened).
Maybe you think the Reform Party has no chance of winning. Maybe democracy as we dream of, simply does not exist?
If everybody felt that way, of course, the Reform Party would never win. You have to start somewhere.
I'm voting Reform. Not Republican, Not Democrat.
Why not Green? Well I don't agree with them!
I don't want Ralph Nader as president, that's that! ; ) Sure he might be better than Gore, but c'mon..
If my heroes don't win, if nothing else, next year I can complain and say "Yes, I exercised my right to vote, I voted my conscience, and I DID NOT HELP THAT IDIOT GET INTO OFFICE!" ; )
As to discussions of Clinton's mistakes/abuses, one can say that since Al Gore works for President Clinton (as his VP) then he shares the responsibility for stuff that happened on his watch. Granted the President doesn't answer to the Veep, but most of the stuff he does the VP knows about.
The same could have been said about Bush Sr. Stuff that Reagan did that was bad, could have shared blame with Bush if he had known about it. So it is relevant in that way.
The idea is to get an idea of how these guys would govern by looking at their past leadership roles.
For example, Bill Clinton as governor, or now George W. as governor, etc.
Assuming they haven't radically changed their style, beliefs and policies, they are bound to repeat themselves, one would reasonably guess.
Still, I am giving the politicians the benefit of the doubt. I am assuming they aren't lying to me, unless I see direct evidence (ie: hypocritical actions contradiction pretty words).
Example, I could cite Al Gore for claiming to be a big environmentalist, yet attaching himself to very anti-environmental groups (such as the WTO), or by claiming support for campaign finance reform, yet accepting soft-money and involving himself in fund-raising scandals with foreigners.
I could cite GW for claiming that he's this super Christian, yet being such a hard-advocate of the Death Penalty, and lukewarm on abortion.
Etc.
And I'm not just following any "party line" either. ; )
Kurgan
[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited August 22, 2000).]
If McCain had made the cut, I would have voted for him.
I still think he WAS the best man for the job.
But now I think I'm gonna go reform too.
I don't care to see either Dem. or Rep. in office this year.
the13thJedi, if you were so keen to notice flaws in the candiates, then you'd notice how dumb-as-a-rock that GWB is. I'll paraphrase, but he said something like this, with regard to the executions taking place in his state:
...I am absolutely positive that not one single innocent person has been executed in Texas while I've been governor...
First off, that's just a stupid thing to say for anyone. No one can be omniscient as he seems to think he is.
Second, he has executed people that I strongly believe should not have been, such as mentally retarded people.
Don't get me wrong, I am for the death penalty, but only when there are several reliable eye-witnesses, or the crime was captured on video. However, executing retarded people? Executing people off the eye-witness testimony of one person? No, I can't agree with conviction in these cases, much less execution. GWB is just a cold, heartless, bastard.
As to you Kurgan, you realize that Buchanan is a racist, isolationist troll, don't you? And that black chick running as his VP is not much better than he is. If they got elected, I think there's a good chance that there would be rioting in the streets. Fortunately, Democracy won't allow them to even get 10% of the vote (Amen).
Now, then as to who you should vote for, obviously vote for whomever you want. If you want to vote for a candiate that you know will not win, then by all means, knock yourselves out. It's good to make a protest vote now and then. I did it the first time Perot ran - I heaved a huge sigh of relief much later once I realized just exactly what he stood for. He's an isolationist just like Buchanan. Free trade is the future my friends, whether you like it or not.
Finally, to Clinton's extra-marital affair. First of all, I don't care. Second of all I don't care. And last of all, I don't care. If I'd had an affair and someone asked me about it on the stand, I'd lie too, to protect my family from the embarrassment of my actions. He shouldn't have been asked that to begin with. It was utterly irrelevant, and was only brought up as part of the Republican's campaign of vengance. Gore can not be held responsible for Clinton's personal behavior.
Seriously, think about it. Do you think Clinton is stupid enough to tell Gore, "Ya Al, I've been getting it on with that new intern, Monica. Hooooey, she can suck a golf ball right through a garden hose". Get real. Clinton's a superb politician and would not knowingly blurt out politically damaging information to anyone. Gore didn't know, period. It might make you feel justified in your dislike of him to believe otherwise, but doing so takes you out of reality and into a realm of fantasy and warm-fuzzies.
Me? I'm all for freedom, acceptance, tolerance, non-bigotry, openness, fairness, open-mindedness, exploration, free-trade, protection of the environment and fiscal responsibility.
------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...
If you're trying to say that I missed something or that I'm siding with a particular candidate, don't bother.
I could give a crap about either the democrat or republican candidates.
I don't care what kind of mistakes they've made, or what mistakes they will make once elected into office. I'm not going to vote for either of them. I'm not even sure who I'll vote for, But If either one of the big candidates wins, at least I can say that I didn't vote for them.
the13thJedi
[This message has been edited by the13thJedi (edited August 23, 2000).]
I had a nice rant all ready to go yesterday, but I kept getting server hang-ups (doh!).
Look for it later today, basically reiterating what I've said before, but also with some apologies. ; )
Again, let me add that I support informed voting. I feel we shouldn't vote based on "how bad the alternative is" or "choosing the lesser of two evils."
When we do the above mentioned things, we are still helping somebody we don't want to be president, into office.
If it came down to Hitler and Mussolini, I wouldn't say "Hmm, Mussolini isn't as bad as Hitler, so I vote for Mussolini" NO! I either get the hell out of the country, or get somebody who can oppose them and fast!
We should have the proper REASON for voting. For example, it is a sad fact that some people vote simply for the person who they think looks the best on TV (JFK has been credited with winning many votes simply because he was younger and more attractive in appearance than Nixon). Some will vote for whomever party they are registered in ("Well I always voted Democrat, their guy, whoever he is, is my man"), etc. Those aren't good reasons for voting. As far as I'm concerned, they might as well not be voting. For this reason, a candidate will strive to appeal to this lowest common denominator, to get their vote. He might as well go up there and talk about his great hair (exaggeration, but you get what I'm talking about?).
Pat Buchanan has an image problem, as Vagabond pointed out. Alot of powerful people don't like him. He got shafted in '92 and '96, although he did garner more popular support each time. Ralph Nader and the ADL for example, have targetted Buchanan for personal attacks, etc. Obviously, he's got some enemies.
Anyhow...
We should choose the candidate that supports the RIGHT way to do things, who would make a good president. If no such candidate exists, I suggest we raise one. That's the process.
Or you could try to let your candidate know that unless he or she conforms to your views, he or she won't be getting your votes. Then of course one has to hope they actually live up to their promise once elected (politicians have a habit of letting us down I'm afraid, so it's a gamble). It's a sad fact that some folks will say anything to get elected. That's why we need finance reform. Politicians will sweet talk folks into supporting them, and when the big money rolls in, they just ignore everyone else but the highest bidder. Support our cause, here's some extra cash for your campaign, Mr. Civil Servant!
More later...
Kurgan
[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited August 23, 2000).]
A slight digression with regard to what Kurgan said about voting:
I too agree that we should all vote for who we personally believe is the best candiate for president. One step toward achieving that is by making the presidential election a direct popular vote, i.e. get rid of the electoral college. It thoroughly irritates me that I live in Kansas, a traditionally Republican state, because no matter who I vote for, the Republican candidate always gets all my states electoral votes; my vote is pointless because it gets drowned out by the majority in my state. However, with a direct popular vote, my vote for an Independent or a Democratic candidate would add up with all others across the country and would actually mean something. That's my soap box for the day
http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)
------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...
Alan Keyes was the best candidate for President if you ask me.
But you never ever saw him in the news. I guess the media decided that America isn't ready for a black republican and only gave the air time to Bush and McCain.
Actually I did see Keyes (at least the conservative Fox News) often in the news. His platform was actually very similar to Buchanan's and I supported him for a time.
Of course he has run before and actually did worse than Buchanan in past runnings.
However, on a few minor points I disagreed with him (ie: he was in favor of abolishing income tax, but adding a higher sales tax, etc). He always stressed moral principles (though he did go to extremes in some cases). Anyhow, he's out of the race. Being a Republican, he had to bow to the nomination of George W.
Kurgan
[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited August 25, 2000).]
Okay, finally, here is what I promised (pardon the length, I was trying to be complete):
========================
Well Vagabond, some people also say a one world government is the future, whether we like it or not. Well, I don't like it! ; )
Who does "Free Trade" actually help? Big Corporations.
If all this is is a protest vote, then a protest vote it will be.
It's my vote, I'll do what I want with it, regardless of what CNN tells me to do with it.
The two "major" parties have a problem, because though they hold a monopoly on the political process of this country (and have for awhile), and the media, etc. they don't represent the views of everyone. Instead they try to use propaganda and scare tactics to lull us into believe they aren't going to screw us over again, right? ; )
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
Now doesn't the Declaration of Independance say that once the government stops doing its job, we are to replace it with a new one? Now I'm not proposing anything anywhere near as radical, but what I am saying is go against the grain and don't vote for the major parties.
I knew what Perot stood for. I agreed with just about everything except the pro-choice thing.
Clinton said some good stuff in '92, but he failed to deliver on just about everything he promised. Bush (Mr. "New World Order")had his problems too. Perot looked like the best thing going.
Now on to my rant which I tried to post before, but it had to reboot:
As to you Kurgan, you realize that Buchanan is a racist, isolationist troll, don't you?
No, I was only aware that his opponents were trying to making him into one. ; )
Ralph Nader and the ADL both have websites up trying to paint Pat as Hitler incarnate, and say that if he gets elected the world will end. Attack ads are old hat in politics.
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
They must be scared to death of the guy, because they have gone to an awful lot of trouble to paint him as a Klu Klux Klan Grand Wizad, goose-stepping, brown-shirted, club waving, slogan-shouting megalomaniac.
Well last I checked Gore was running attack ads on his opponents, etc etc. Nothing new.
Hey, George Bush Sr. when he was running against Clinton actually called his opponent "crazy."
It's always good to play that card when you want to scare people away from what he has to say. Rather than listen to what he has to say, call him a Nazi, and forget about him, right? He's no David Duke, okay?
Tell people that their man is a racist. You don't want to vote for a RACIST now do you? Oh no!
If he's such a racist, why is he fighting for the rights of all Americans, regardless of race or creed?
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
If he's so racist, why did he pick a strong black woman as his Vice President?
Sure, sure, one could accuse Buchanan of making publicity by picking a person of color as his running mate. Why did the Liberal Media make such a circus about Al Gore picking a Jewish man (Lieberman) as his running mate? Buchanan knows they hate him, so maybe it was a bit of a protest. Again, surely if Buchanan is so racist and all his supporters are racist, he would never have done such a thing. And any white supremecists would immediately withdraw their support after they learned Foster was running with him. Think about it!
Oh I get it, you're not REALLY black unless you're a fierce liberal Democrat. ; )
Let me understand this... If a person opposes Affirmative Action they are racist! So then I guess Alan Keyes (my former pick) is a racist. He must hate himself because he's black. And doesn't GW have a thing against AA? Must be alot of closet racists out there!
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
To tell the truth, AA is about racial quotas. I used to think it was good, or at least that it had something going for it because we didn't have anything better. However, has it worked? Is it fair? Surely we can come up with something better. How about anonymous interviews for jobs? (some places do this already; the interviewer can't see the person so he/she won't be biased based on their appearance).
So I guess if you disagree with what certain people think, you're a racist. Sort of takes the wind out of freedom of speech doesn't it? Controlling people's thoughts, kind of reminds me of a certain Big Brother.. but I digress.
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
Hey, your's truly has even been compared to Hitler in the past, so I sympathize.
A Racist is somebody who believes that the human race is divided into racial categories and that some of these are superior or inferior to others. When the popular media uses the term racist, they usually mean somebody who hates blacks. Pat Buchanan is not a racist.
As to a troll, no, trolls are a mythological creature. They exist only on Middle Earth, and on certain message boards (where they often "troll" people). ; )
That's politics for you:
When all else fails, call your opponent a dirty name. Hey, if he gets the votes, he gets the votes. Are you saying that all of his supporters are racists too? Surely picking a black VP would turn them away. ; )
David Duke, I know would never support a candidate with a non-white running mate.
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
Now let me guess, because Buchanan is against unrestricted immigration, he must be a racist. Hmm, only trouble with that is that immigrants are of all races, colors, and creeds. Maybe you think only Mexicans immigrate illegally to this country? Immigration definately needs reform. Lowering wages and increasing crime and poverty are a few of the bad things about mass immmigration (and especially illegal immigration). We've had quotas in the past. Let the country catch up with the flood of people already in here (of all races, colors, and creeds) and set some reasonable limits. In the future, if we need 'em, we can open the floodgates again.
[CONTINUED...]
[CONTINUED...]
So who does mass immigration help? Big corporations who hire cheap labor from the immigrant pool. We can give small groups of people political assylum without moving millions of them permanently into the middle of the country (if that's the issue).
Besides, too many immigrants are already being exploited for cheap labor by big heartless corporations. That hurts them, and it hurts workers who are already here.
Sounds like an issue that our buddy Ralph Nader would jump on. ; )
[CONTINUED...]