I'm curious as to what type of learning curve you folks think should be in Jedi Knight II. I've seen a few other topics where people have been discussing ideas about splash weapons being implemented to allow newbies to have a fighting chance against the more skilled players. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with this, but chances are, the newbies wouldn't be the ones who are going to be carrying the high-powered weapons. The more skilled players will certainly control all the powerful items, as we see in most games.
I'm more for a very steep learning curve in both singleplayer and multiplayer. I want a game that takes months-years to master, as we had with Jedi Knight. Jedi Knight probably had the largest gap between experts and newbies than any other game in history. You not only could beat your opponent badly, but you were actually able to knock them well into the negatives. This made way for a huge gap between skill-levels, and made the game far more interesting.
One could also argue that this discouraged new comers to the game because it would take them so long to be any good to actually stay alive in a game so they wouldn't play it. But I'm not going to do that.
I think months to master would be better than years to master. By the time you finally mastered it, it wouldn't matter if it takes years.
The learning curve for online games really never stops. JK has been developing for 4 years.
JKs tho is steep. a few extra tricks = a ton of extra kills. This is fun for people who like to learn games and find games dull when mastered.
But for the average newbie its annoying.
in q3 its relativly easy to get a gun, its relatively slow, and its quite hard to be spawn fraged on most levels. So the newbie even if he doesn't have a real chance, gets a gun atleast. Newbies in jk ff co rarely move 30cm from a spawn point. seeing means we know where they are, the fact item timing in jk is incredibly important means that they even if they last will rarely get a gun, and player speeds means that a player who can move well can be anywhere in very little time, meaning the newbie basher is over them like a rash in no time.
However the speed, the item controlling make the game at higher levels, with equal players MUCH more interesting.
I for one love jks control aspect.. if only the surges just replaced 100% mana, instead of infinite for 20 secs so you would need better mana control and the guy timing them wouldnt have a massive advantage imo it would be perfect. JKs weapons and major power ups can be taken in different ways, which leads to great tactics in mp, eg a guy timing surge who is running low on health cause the other guy is timing the vest bactas etc. can pick up a surge, then when it runs out not go to the surge tunnel.
The other guy on seeing him not going for the surge might try to get it quick, ruining his timing, allowing the other guy to collect the vest and bacta, and then return to the surge when it spawns again. he wont of sacraficed a surge to get the bacta etc. the other guy will have lost control of it.
(hmm that makes sense.. ;))
Seeing is also great, it allows for the player to control items and people better. and for 2 players of equal skill it makes ambushing and hiding harder to achieve which imo is good. (it also removes camping almost)
But JKs speed imo isn't all that important. the fluidity and 3dimensionality is far more important to me. I would gladly sacrafice JKs speed for the ability to control weapons say (in q3 5 sec spawns on the guns annoys me.. I want to stop that nightmare rail everytime bot from aquiring one..) and seeing + map.
(hopefully jump is taken for granted as being in jk2)
Lets hope when they give us difficulty settings in the game hard means hard and isnt as easy as in Jedi Knight!!!!!!!!! :p
I think he mainly meant mp.. SP fps are always going to be piss easy :)
Just have bots for the newbies, worked for UT :cool:
I'm all for a learning curve so that as you play the game more, you learn more tricks and nuances. A reward for sticking with the game. That's the fun stuff.
I've been vocal about making the game 'newbie-friendly' because many of the people I've introduced to Jedi Knight didn't like how they got whooped by more experienced players.
So, what to do about that?
Include bots, as was suggested so that people can cut their teeth on them.
Make powerful weapons that will at least give the inexperienced a shot at making the occasional kill against an experienced player.
Reduce the tempo by reducing the speed of Force Speed
Eliminate redundant force powers such as destruct (which is really just a glmorized concussion blast) to simplify the game.
Doing these things will not change the learning curve. They will simply make the game more accessible to newcomers.
You could replace force destruct with force blast. It makes everyone (maybe even you) shoot off in different directions, like force push, but for more than one person, it also has the same effect force destruct does, but this time there is not hurt from teh blast, just the impact.
Bots are a must.
Guess what. We will all be newbies when the game comes out. Know why? There won't be any experianced players for us to be compared to. Therefore everyone will be a n3wb when the game comes out. How long you are a n3wb is your choice.
Thats a good point, I think we should all forget about 'newbies.' We had this debate at JK.net and it got quite heated, we ARE all going to be new and the skills we learned from JK are not going to count for that much really, although they may help to start with...
wardz
Well thinking long term here, JK was pretty tough for new players to get into. true we will all be new players, growing up a newbie and learning the game when there are plenty of people around at similar levels as most of us will, will be fun.. its when that stage is over.. personally I like a long learning curve. I actually Like being newbie bashed tho :) JK got the most boring for me when my targets started leaving, people like death, the people I set my aspirations to beat.
That last part doesn't really make any sense KillerBee.
I will like not having anyone who is has l33t skillz to come in a game and start killing everyone. That won't happen for a few months. hehe At least i hope it won't. Maybe the devs from Raven won't decide to drop in on a game and own everyone. If they actually played it that much that is.
I actually Like being newbie bashed tho you pervert!
;)
wardz
I think a game like Jedi Outcast (as JK did) will also be bought by people who donґt play 3D-Shooters generally.
The Star Wars aspect of the game will be one of the main reasons to buy this game. So, some "newbies" may play a real "shooter" the first time, because its Star Wars, not a shooter.
People used to play Quake, UT etc... will beat these people in the beginning. But we have to show these "newbies" how to play a shooter and let them be a part of our community.
Amen.
Visac
Originally posted by Visac:
<STRONG>People used to play Quake, UT etc... will beat these people in the beginning. But we have to show these "newbies" how to play a shooter and let them be a part of our community.
</STRONG>
People used to play Quake, UT etc don't know what to do with a saber :p
I also hope that JediKnight II will clear the table and bring something so new and complex before your eyes that even you will feel newbies once again ( what a wonderful feeling :) ).
I haven't had the chances to play Jedi Knight a lot, and definetely not in internet - but i will buy Jedi Knight II instantly when it comes out and probably give the multiplayer a try.
The learning curve should more like be months, as years is too long and could scare many players away. Not every human being own long nerves ;)
I think map design is one area where newbies can be helped out immeasurably. Include (for the experts) a number of more complex maps, which require advanced techniques, such as:
Good knowledge of the map
Some knowledge of item respawn times
Good situational awareness: maps built on multiple levels so that looking up/down is necessary
Different hazardous environments, such as water, lava etc.
Some booby-traps, like the lightning in Canyon Oasis
A wide variety of items, weapons and power-ups
By contrast provide simpler maps for the newbies, which take less time to master due to:
Simple layout, which requires minimal knowledge of the map
Less weapons/power-ups and less powerful weapons
All on one level, so that use of mouselook is not necessary
No unpleasant surprises like water, lava or lightning
I am firmly of the opinion that decent map design can allow newbies to be "eased in" to the feel of the game, whilst more advanced players can be allowed to skip the basic maps and move on to greater challenges. Both Quake III and Unreal Tournament did this quite successfully.
I remember UT....it was great at first, everyone figured the Rocket Launcher was king. It could only be stopped by a someone who could effectively do a shockcombo. Then in the coming months, everyone started using the Shockcombo, if you didn't you were toast, the same goes for if you were plagued with bad latency. Now, the only way you can win is if you can do a shockcombo every shot and know every map like the back of your hand. Even then, you can still be owned by someone camping the spawns. What's the moral of the story? Learning Curve = good, but not too much or newbies will not have a chance and vets will all be equals, making the game rather stale.
hrmmm newbie bashing..... is that what they call it these days ;)
but seriously, i think most of us here shouldnt have to worry about being labelled newbies. for the first few months everyone will be a newbie, and it looks as though us guys here will be THE people in those first few months. by the time people start labelling others 'newbies', we should be 'tee yuu double eff' TUFF :)
One could also argue that this discouraged new comers to the game because it would take them so long to be any good to actually stay alive in a game so they wouldn't play it.
Personally, these are the people that I don't want to be flooding into the JKII community. They already plague the JK community and if they don't want to take the time to learn like the rest of us, maybe they should go play Nintendo. I'm glad that this game will have dedicated servers, and hopefully everyone will have to vote someone out, instead of just some newbian saying "ReAcToR HaX - Boot Him!"
Just have bots for the newbies, worked for UT
LoL! You've already solved the problem.
Guess what. We will all be newbies when the game comes out. Know why? There won't be any experianced players for us to be compared to. Therefore everyone will be a n3wb when the game comes out. How long you are a n3wb is your choice.
That all depends on the game itself. If there is alot of guns and aiming required, alot of us will break out of that newbie phase within days. The same could be said about movement and item control. It only takes a few hours to learn hot the spawn-times will work. Those of us who are experienced FPS players, just might be up into intermediate status within a week. Just depends on how the game works out.
Maybe the devs from Raven won't decide to drop in on a game and own everyone.
OoOo I would love the chance to slap around a Raven employee. If there is force speed in the game, bring along Stephen Shaw, I'll show him a thing of two. ;)
People used to play Quake, UT etc... will beat these people in the beginning. But we have to show these "newbies" how to play a shooter and let them be a part of our community.
Amen indeed. The interesting thing about JKII will be how easily we will distinguish cheaters in MP. People won't be able to just download cogs when they suck, they will have to learn to play like the rest of us. Muhahaha!
People used to play Quake, UT etc don't know what to do with a saber
But people who used a Saber may not know what to do with a gun. Besides, I'm still hoping that the weapons will be balanced, instead of just having some Saberist running around blocking everything without even trying. Aiming is something that carries over into new games, at least for the most part).
I also hope that JediKnight II will clear the table and bring something so new and complex before your eyes that even you will feel newbies once again ( what a wonderful feeling).
I agree. Being a newbie was always the most fun. I hope that there are things in this game that are so new that everyone will be a newbie with it.
I am firmly of the opinion that decent map design can allow newbies to be "eased in" to the feel of the game, whilst more advanced players can be allowed to skip the basic maps and move on to greater challenges. Both Quake III and Unreal Tournament did this quite successfully.
Good point. It would definitely be a good thing to have special maps for new players, that will teach them the basics.
Although alot of skills will carry over into JKII, I am hoping that it will have enough innovation to keep us experienced FPSers on our toes. I love the idea of being a newbie again, but hope that the learning curve is very steep, so after all those long hours of training, we will feel our reward.
Originally posted by ReAcToR:
<STRONG>
Good point. It would definitely be a good thing to have special maps for new players, that will teach them the basics.
</STRONG>
lol special newb maps.... 'i can smell a CO remake coming on :)'
Isn't ji for newbies, jedi infancy or something :D
CO is really a very small and simple map..
T4 from q3 also.. which was (until they removed underfloor damage) quite good for torunies..
small maps just end up as the good 1 v 1 maps..
btw what part didn't make sense?
the I like being newbie bashed, cause it meant there was still stuff to learn part?
Personally, these are the people that I don't want to be flooding into the JKII community. They already plague the JK community and if they don't want to take the time to learn like the rest of us, maybe they should go play Nintendo. I'm glad that this game will have dedicated servers, and hopefully everyone will have to vote someone out, instead of just some newbian saying "ReAcToR HaX - Boot Him!"
Fortunately, not all newcomers will instantly accuse someone of 'haX0ring.' We should be welcoming newcomers. Not humiliating them to the point where they think we are cheating. This happens on the Zone all of the time.
[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Wilhuf ]
Agreed. The JK and JK II community shouldn't be made into some sort of exclusive club. Multi-player gaming is a social activity and should be open to everyone.
Edit: didn't read right first time. :D
[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: ed_silvergun ]
The older more experienced JK players will have an advantage due to coordination gained from JK and MOTS, but that is where it will end, we don't know how the game setup will work, we are all going to be new, whats the big deal about being a newbie, like some people have said, thats the best part where you are learning about the game and how best to deal with the enemies...
wardz
I agree with Wilhuf. Everybody needs to remember to be good sports first off. The newbies are needed as much or more than the experienced players. Without the newbies, the game stops being profitable for the makers and more like it won't be coming.
I always like to avoid humiliating newbies in a game. Nobody likes that and it's not really that much fun for me either. Instead I like to play around with them without killing them constantly. I'll sneak up behind them and shoot at their feet and run away to see if they can catch me, or I'll try to kill them with the weakest weapons. Point is, by doing that you're a good sport while at the same time helping the newbies learn and improving your own skills in other areas at the same time. Uncontrolled kill fests are just boring and rude. I'll boot people like that just cause they're lousy sports. The point's to have fun, not be a dick by racking up 50 kills before the newbies can even get to fighting amongst themselves.
[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Gonk Droid ]
"I'm more for a very steep learning curve in both singleplayer and multiplayer"
Agreed.
Not humiliating them to the point where they think we are cheating. This happens on the Zone all of the time.
I don't think that the majority of good players intend to humiliate newbians. Experience players shouldn't be expected to 'hold back' their skills just because an inexperienced player joins the game. If we were to do that, it wouldn't be fun for us. If they join a game that consists of better players, they should leave and find a game where they can be amongst other beginners. I don't hold back just because someone with less skill joins my game, but I am almost always willing to give them pointers if they ask.
The point's to have fun, not be a dick by racking up 50 kills before the newbies can even get to fighting amongst themselves.
Some of us have spent years trying to master this game. Hundreds of hours of training. We play this game competively. Are we expected to pretend to be less-skilled just to not hurt some newbians feelings? If the newbians are playing for "fun" they shouldn't mind getting slapped around. They should be having fun winning and losing. I did. I used to get beat horribly when I was a newbian, as did most players, but that stage is long gone for alot of us. If people become "humiliated" over a game, they probably have something wrong with them. I'm not a psychologist, I'm a JK player. I play to be the best that I can be while having fun. If they can't handle being beat into submission, like I was when I was new, maybe they should learn not to take a game so seriously.
I suppose you guys are making valid points, but trying to make it the norm for experienced players to tone down for newbians, is just plain strange. Most of the people that join my games are newbians, and if I were to tone down on my skills just for them, I would be sacrificing potentially good pracice.
We were all newbians at one time, but we should be rewarded for becoming better, not by pretending to be less-skilled, but by playing the way we wish to play.
"I always like to avoid humiliating newbies in a game.
"Instead I like to play around with them without killing them constantly. I'll sneak up behind them and shoot at their feet and run away to see if they can catch me, or I'll try to kill them with the weakest weapons."
Erm the most humiliating thing there is, is being killed by a weak weapon!! :mad:
Its saying to the newbie,
"hey lookie I don't even need to use a proper gun to kill you, you suck!"
Its far fairer to the newbie to turn off things like seeing, lay off grip and destruction, and get in some conky aim practice. (albeit slow training)
and then give them tips.. I've shown numerous people the jumps round oasis..
if they ask nice I will usually leave.. no fun for me really wiping out newbies.
It might seem a little sick, but newbies are good target practice. They have no clue what is going on and like to run around or saberfight while I blast them with Destruct and/or Conc.
Best target practice is someone who is more experienced than you are. ;)
No, that's for overall training. For straight up conc target practice, it's nice to have something to shoot at that hasn't a chance of touching you. I don't have to worry about newbies killing me, so I can try out new shots and snipes almost at my leasure.
We were all newbians at one time, but we should be rewarded for becoming better, not by pretending to be less-skilled, but by playing the way we wish to play.
Where is the reward in beating down someone who can't play as well as you? How do you become better by beating someone who is inexperienced?
Beating the life outta newbies is a part of getting better. I would play games with WD_Rage, Breeze, WD_RaiN_, TRA_Exavier, and many others where I would get the snot beat outta me. But instead of whining and getting mad like most people do, I tried to learn what I could from the games. Then I would take what I learned and beat the crap outta the next guy I ran into hehe. Slaughtering newbies is a part of getting better, although there is a little more to it then you know.
The first step to de-n00binization is using the keyboard + mouse. I can't tell you how many people use the keyboard alone. :eek:
no kwup, i believe you cant, but what you CAN say is that some of the best jk-ers use keyboard only.... :)
Where is the reward in beating down someone who can't play as well as you? How do you become better by beating someone who is inexperienced?
No one is saying that beating newbians is a reward. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm simply stating that newbians irritate those of us who are experienced players by joining our games. I usually label my room with "Intermediate+ Only" so newbians won't join, but they insist on doing so anyways. I didn't invite them, I invited "Intermediates+" so why should I hold back on people that I don't even want in my games?
I didn't spend this many years training in this game, to hold back my skills just because some newbian insists on joining a game where he/she doesn't belong. If they join a game and see that I can kill them 6 times in 60 seconds, they should realize that this isn't the game for them and that they should join a game with people of similar skill. If they don't, you can't blame me for playing as I normally do. That's just not logical.
I agree with that. All MP games should be categorized easily so players know where to go for "their" kind of game. The problem is even when the games are noted for a particular skill level, people always ignore it. Newbies coming into an advanced game aren't nearly as big a problem as experienced jerks coming into a beginner game just to kill everybody and try to feel like a hotshot. That sucks as bad as the idiots who wreck a good game by using cogs and stuff just to dork around.
While we're on the subject of controls, I agree that the mouse is essential for aiming. What I'm surprised by is the apparent lack of appreciation for the joystick. I've found time and time again that the best controls are all 3. Mouse on one side, keyboard in the middle, and joystick on the other side. Maybe it's cause I'm ambidextrous, but a good stick set up properly is much more powerful than the keyboard alone. You've got to have that r-axis and hat. I can run/walk strafing, peeking around corners, zooming, firing and changing weapons all at the same time without losing my aim. I only need to use the keyboard to taunt the people I kill or use inventory items. On second thought, that probably wouldn't work well for anybody else so you shouldn't try it. :p
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Gonk Droid ]
A Joystick Mouse and Keyboard?
Jebus Krist boy, what did you eat!
Newbies coming into an advanced game aren't nearly as big a problem as experienced jerks coming into a beginner game just to kill everybody and try to feel like a hotshot. That sucks as bad as the idiots who wreck a good game by using cogs and stuff just to dork around.
I totally agree with that. Experienced players should stick to hosting their own games and/or joining games with people on their skill-level. Usually, if I join a game that consists of people who are far less in skill I will either leave or teach them to use that nifty KICK command. It's suprising that many newbians don't know how to KICK people. I usually try and be even more helpful by giving them a link to Kicker Helper. Theses are some of the best ways that we can help newbians.
If newbians DO join OUR games and are getting slapped around real bad, if they show a good attitude, I don't see any reason for us to not give them a few tips. In FF, I usually explain the concept of item-timing, give them the times on each item with pull and pickup, show them a few jumps that will improve their play and teach them about the seeing + map combo.
Jebus Krist boy, what did you eat!
Sounds like he's eating his wheaties to me. :)
If newbians DO join OUR games and are getting slapped around real bad, if they show a good attitude, I don't see any reason for us to not give them a few tips.
Now that's what I'm talkin' bout here. It's very rewarding to me to share tips with newcomers.
Ahh... now everyone is happy. heh heh :cool:
I wonder what planet Newbians come from.
Anyone up for a game on the Zone? My Zone name is SL_Ki_Adi_Mundi.
Be warned, I haven't played in a few months. Since... December I think.
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Ki-Adi-Mundi ]
12 button gamepad + mouse is the wayto go in Jk/Mots games, you sux till u can use a joy an a mouse together :D
I've been playing jk for 4 and a half years. It took me years to get good just like many others. I don't like a game where you master it in a few months and then never play it again. If a game takes years to get good at, people will probably stick with it as I have
Beer
I treat others as I don’t mind being treated myself.
If I buy and start playing a multiplayer game that has been out for several months, let alone several years, I expect to get a$$r4p3D by my competition until I become familiar with the game. From the very beginning of my multiplayer computer gaming career I was ganked by the more experienced players. I see nothing wrong with that to this day.
There are games designed to drastically limit the effectiveness a player can have no matter how much time he puts into the game.
------------------
The Following text gives a semi-detailed example of such 'More Time Spent- Less Actual Strict Advantages Gained' game design in effect. This is not vital to my point and the impatient can skip below it to finish the post.
This came be seen very easy in massive multiplayer online roleplaying games (MMORPGs) currently in development; they have levels a character can gain by collecting experience points which can be gathered largely by killing monsters. You're going to have to kill more and more monsters as you advance each level and that takes time. At the same time you can also fight other players; the higher level you are the stronger you are going to be and the more abilities you gain. One of these games has territorial conquest, which you must fight other players for, as a main goal of the game. Now tell me, how are the players that buy this game months afterwards going to be able to fight others if it takes them forever to level up when they fight the monsters? One of the things the designers are doing is making it easier to achieve maximum level. This lets players 'catch up' to the maximum level of others players a lot more quickly so they can stand a chance.
This MMORPG, however, is based more on pre-defined abilities you can with out a doubt aquire if you put in the time. Twitch reflexes do not play a significant part in this game, very much unlike your average multiplayer FPS.
--------------------
If a player really is looking for a gaming genre that he will be new to and still be able to achieve intermediate/non-newb status in a short period of time he should look into some 2 player arcade games, like vanilla 2-player Pong, and stay pretty far away from FPSes in general.
I agree with what someone mentioned earlier about how JK 2 will signal the arrival of many Star Wars fans who are completely new to the world of the FPS. However, we shouldn't expect the ingrained learning curve of the FPS (including our very own JK2) to change overnight for these people.
The developers do have control over things that can make the FPS more complex overall. Even one of the comparatively simplistic FPSes, the original Quake 3, presents a learning curve that is very difficult for FPS noobs that are not even accustomed to aiming and moving at the same time.
If you are concerned that Raven might add too much to the complexity of the already learning-curve dependant FPS, I would say you have little to worry about. Just like JK, the one thing that will make this game more difficult than your average FPS is your saber and force powers. I don't have the exact quote on me but it appears Raven has already opted for a simpler and more streamlined system of force control. The saber movement is also nothing like the original PC Obi-Wan attempted; it is very much at this point (and unfortunately imo ) like the original JK. In short, you shouldn't be worried about JK2 being more complicated and less newbie-friendly then JK as far as controls are concerned. But was JK too complicated to begin with? I say no. More complicated than your average FPS? Yes. Worth the slightly higher learning curve? I think almost everyone here agrees Yes, the higher learning curve in JK was worth it.
This entire point is kind of moot anyways since we will have dedicated servers that can be advertised for every skill level, not to mention private passwords servers. Will "Xperts" host/join "Beginner” Games so they can beat the crap out of newbs? Yes. These types always will because their desire to win destroys any sense of integrity or fair play in their game. There is no amount of code that Raven can put in that can design around that.
Early on when the game first ships will everyone be thrown into the mix n00bs and newbs alike? Yep. Is this bad? Naw. If it was bad would it be worth it for Raven to make the game easier so people won't get trounced so bad? Hell no. Quicker learning from quicker poundings; time to play the game like every FPS you've ever played or just like your first one you've ever played if you are new.
Edited because using Force Long Post completely drained my mana, thereby preventing me from using Force Good Editing
[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Krayt Tion ]
It does not matter if youre a newbie or not it depends on the first person game experienced. If you played doom or any other fps the skill comes in time dont base the development on the newbie factor. If you suk in the first placemay you should play somthing else other than fps.............. :mad:
red_x, think of the keyboard as a 105 button joy pad, and most of us play like it..
Gonk droid.. I can do all of that using my keyb.. its just a matter of people dumping default cfgs.
i agree with bee.... i used the keyboard for EVERYTHING for quite a long time... its possible to do everything if you have enough fingers :)
you need a mouse to.. keyb alone isnt enough!
but mouse + keyb = the only controllers needed for FPS..I used to play with a stick.. completed JK sp with one... but then playing with a mouse went back and did it 2* as quick and found all the secrets, as you can actually look about..