So i've been debating to myself whether to write this thread for a while and a recent post I read in a topic influenced me to express my opinions on TOR, so here goes:
Examine the reasons people dislike TOR. Most couldn't care less if it was a direct port of KotOR to the MMO genre. Just because it IS an MMO they hate it. so KotOR fans have already made up their minds that TOR is not their game regardless of if it works. Look at when it was announced. Before screenshots and anything else KotOR fans were thumbing their nose at it. Anything else just gave them more reasons to hate it.
i can assure you this was not my initial reaction.
After seeing the decieved trailer. I was thinking "OMG, they're going to continue Kotor through this game! This could be truely epic, this could actually be the first mmo that I can actually get into!"
You see I had just finished the first Mass Effect and loved it. It was an immersive experience that I really enjoyed but most importantly (to me) it was the first rpg I had played where I liked the combat system. You see i've always wanted a game with the character customisation of the kotor games without the normal rpg combat system.
So I was thinking something close to the mass effect combat system mixed with the SW:Kotor setting in an mmo might just sell me.
I presumed seeing as it was a mmo and a continuation of kotor that they wouldn't want anything too taxing on pc's in terms of graphics so I assumed they go with the look and style of the previous 2 games. (which I also happen to like)
Then it happened..
I saw a gameplay video. Not only did they not incorporate a new combat system for the mmo genre, they went a completely different direction for the visuals of the game.
The characters in this game look a lot like WoW characters to me. So anychance of me getting immersed into the game (and my potential character or characters) was gone. I always liked how the previous games looked and it genuinely surprised me that they mirrored WoW with the aesthetics here.
"Be a little more open" and quite frankly KotOR fans are WAY too demanding. They DEMAND Revan, They DEMAND Exile. They made so many demands, it was impossible to even come close to meeting their expectations. So KotOR fans are really the ones saying FU to BioWare for not meeting their impossible standards.
As far as Revan and Exile goes I knew this was going to be based around 300 years after TSL so I assumed they be dead and not too relevant to the player's experience in this game.
There are a few threads on canon/storylines within TOR and how they relate to the previous installments so I won't touch on it too much here.
I will say this though when I first heard about this I raced to my computer to find out more about this game but i've already found out enough about this game to know it won't be my cup of tea.
As a closing point, I think this game truely had the potential to break through a lot of the things that prevent certain gamers from playing mmo's. Unfortunatly this game will not be that genre-altering title I was hoping for. :(
If any of ye have different reasons for wanting to (or not wanting to) play the game i'd be intrested to hear it?
I don't have any problems with either the combat system or the visuals. The combat system actually looks refreshing opposed to the combat in certain RPG's/MMO's I've seen or played. And maybe the game could've looked better in my opinion, I understand why they're going for this style and am not too bothered with it.
The key is to look at it as an MMO set in the Star Wars universe at its core. If either of the two don't appeal to you, you shouldn't play the game. Gameplay, of course, is going to be the next step in deciding if you like this game, but not much has been shown when it comes to gameplay to rate it at this point, I think.
The important thing to do is to separate the game from singleplayer RPG's BioWare produced, exactly because it is an MMO. And as much as the link between TOR and KotOR is being made, TOR is still very much a standalone game who only hints at the KotOR series.
I, for one, even if I'd still rather have a third KotOR game, am at this point still interested in playing the game. Because I've always wanted to play a Star Wars MMO (Galaxies being not appealing enough to me) and because it gives story an important place in the game. I may not like the way they're going with their copying of the Clone Wars, but it gives me the chance to be one character of a million characters who walk around the Star Wars galaxy, fighting those iconic elements. So if I have to wear Clone Trooper armor to do it, I think I will. :)
I don't have any problems with either the combat system or the visuals. The combat system actually looks refreshing opposed to the combat in certain RPG's/MMO's I've seen or played. And maybe the game could've looked better in my opinion, I understand why they're going for this style and am not too bothered with it.
I'm sorry but the combat looks far to similar to other mmo games for me to consider it something different. The visual style they went for is VERY similar to WoW imo.
The key is to look at it as an MMO set in the Star Wars universe at its core. If either of the two don't appeal to you, you shouldn't play the game. Gameplay, of course, is going to be the next step in deciding if you like this game, but not much has been shown when it comes to gameplay to rate it at this point, I think.
An mmo set in the SW universe does really appeal to me. That's why i'm writing this.
Enough of the gameplay has been shown for me to know it's your standard mmo combat system.
The important thing to do is to separate the game from singleplayer RPG's BioWare produced, exactly because it is an MMO. And as much as the link between TOR and KotOR is being made, TOR is still very much a standalone game who only hints at the KotOR series.
I, for one, even if I'd still rather have a third KotOR game, am at this point still interested in playing the game. Because I've always wanted to play a Star Wars MMO (Galaxies being not appealing enough to me) and because it gives story an important place in the game. I may not like the way they're going with their copying of the Clone Wars, but it gives me the chance to be one character of a million characters who walk around the Star Wars galaxy, fighting those iconic elements. So if I have to wear Clone Trooper armor to do it, I think I will. :)
I agree that thus mmo having a heavier emphasis on story and dialog does appeal to me a great deal. But the fact it'll look like WoW/Clone Wars means that I wouldn't be able to take my character seriously.
Blizzard’s Art department for Warcraft I/II/III/WoW has been very distinct over the past 10 years. Over sized hands and feet, bright colors, and over sized weapons. Even the towns and villages are colored with a bright color palette. I have yet to see an MMO pull off the ultra realistic look. SOE tried with EQ2 but I think that game looked terrible. Solo player games like Mass Effect and Splinter Cell look awesome, but these games are focused on much smaller levels and are solo based so there are fewer objects to render.
IMO I think Bioware did very well to come up a look that is all their own. A good mix of realistic models and colors with a touch of anima. Plus, we got lots of boobs! If I had to compare the look to another MMO to TOR I would say it looks the most like City of Heroes.
I’m not sure what in game video you saw, but I would ask you watch this one (again). If you still don’t like the direction the Bioware art team went after watching this video I guess there is no changing your mind. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbtWG_mApjA&feature=fvsr)
~ Sith Lord Drew
But the fact it'll look like WoW/Clone Wars means that I wouldn't be able to take my character seriously.
I don't understand how the cartoon look prevents you from taking your character seriously, but I think it's important to understand the reason behind their choice for the cartoony look.
Blizzard’s Art department for Warcraft I/II/III/WoW has been very distinct over the past 10 years. Over sized hands and feet, bright colors, and over sized weapons. Even the towns and villages are colored with a bright color palette. I have yet to see an MMO pull off the ultra realistic look. SOE tried with EQ2 but I think that game looked terrible. Solo player games like Mass Effect and Splinter Cell look awesome, but these games are focused on much smaller levels and are solo based so there are fewer objects to render.
True, it is much easier to make single player games look better.
However I think TOR's characters look more similar (in-game) to WoW than previous Kotor characters, which I think is a bad thing.
IMO I think Bioware did very well to come up a look that is all their own. A good mix of realistic models and colors with a touch of anima. Plus, we got lots of boobs! If I had to compare the look to another MMO to TOR I would say it looks the most like City of Heroes.
Well City of Heroes is a tongue-in-cheek super hero game and while that works for that type of game I don't see how it helps a heavily story driven SW game.
I will admit, i HATE anime. I just find that a lot of those things (Clone warriors or troopers or whatever it's called being a perfect example) are too cartoony for me to get into.
I’m not sure what in game video you saw, but I would ask you watch this one (again). If you still don’t like the direction the Bioware art team went after watching this video I guess there is no changing your mind. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbtWG_mApjA&feature=fvsr)
~ Sith Lord Drew
Watched it. I have seen it before.
On second watch I must say I still don't like the way it looks, the characters especially.
I don't understand how the cartoon look prevents you from taking your character seriously, but I think it's important to understand the reason behind their choice for the cartoony look.
They wanted it to look like WoW?
Its called personal taste... I cant understand why the Clone wars got the green light to be even made, never mind being a Hit TV show in several countries, Its just down to what I think is Star Wars, and what I think is cool. It's an opinion. For example (It could well be my age and upbringing) But to me, any cartoon, whether it be carebears or Manga is for kids, I cant take it as cool, but some people would engage in a fistfight with me over it.
I think Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Redemption, is better than a New Hope, the Phantom menace and the Clone Wars... Other people would just say its crap EU, unrelated to G-canon. The only explanation is, is that its my preference.
If I find something crap or unlike Star Wars, I wont take it seriously, because I don't think its cool, very simple.
And regarding understanding the reasons for its appearance and game style, anyone with half a brain knows that Player base size and revenue is the number one factor in game development, so make it appeal to kids, casuals and adults, make it so you have to pay for content, Bioware rich.
What I want to know is why people get chastised for airing there views and called bitch's and haters, yet people who blindly except everything George releases as the word of God whether they secretly hate it or not, don't even get questioned... except by me lol.
Its not hating its wanting the best from a product you have investment in.
each to their own guys, everyone is different . I personally dont like the direction they have gone with for this game, so i oviously wont be playing it. But it eventually come down to what type of gamer you are , simple as that :)
Its called personal taste... I cant understand why the Clone wars got the green light to be even made, never mind being a Hit TV show in several countries, Its just down to what I think is Star Wars, and what I think is cool. It's an opinion. For example (It could well be my age and upbringing) But to me, any cartoon, whether it be carebears or Manga is for kids, I cant take it as cool, but some people would engage in a fistfight with me over it.
I think Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi: Redemption, is better than a New Hope, the Phantom menace and the Clone Wars... Other people would just say its crap EU, unrelated to G-canon. The only explanation is, is that its my preference.
If I find something crap or unlike Star Wars, I wont take it seriously, because I don't think its cool, very simple.
And regarding understanding the reasons for its appearance and game style, anyone with half a brain knows that Player base size and revenue is the number one factor in game development, so make it appeal to kids, casuals and adults, make it so you have to pay for content, Bioware rich.
What I want to know is why people get chastised for airing there views and called bitch's and haters, yet people who blindly except everything George releases as the word of God whether they secretly hate it or not, don't even get questioned... except by me lol.
Its not hating its wanting the best from a product you have investment in.
I fully agree with you.
I do think that basing the visuals on the original games could still appeal to casual fans though, I think with a lot of SW stuff they underestimate young people.
each to their own guys, everyone is different . I personally dont like the direction they have gone with for this game, so i oviously wont be playing it. But it eventually come down to what type of gamer you are , simple as that :)
Wise words there.
They wanted it to look like WoW?
Erm... No. Cartoon graphics don't get old as fast as realistic ones.
Erm... No. Cartoon graphics don't get old as fast as realistic ones.
That's true.
My main point though is that with the cartoony graphics they're alienating me (someone who's already a fan of their series) from their mmo.
I guess I'm just a big kid, I still like cartoons. :giggle1:
~Sith Lord Drew
I guess I'm just a big kid, I still like cartoons. :giggle1:
~Sith Lord Drew
:lol:
I got nothing against cartoons, I just don't think it fits with TOR.
CARTOONS ROCK!!! :D ( but not with tor or any starwars game/movie) -->with the exception of clone wars lol
CARTOONS ROCK!!! :D ( but not with tor or any starwars game/movie) -->with the exception of clone wars lol
Meh.. Animated SW cartoons just aren't for me.
That's true.
My main point though is that with the cartoony graphics they're alienating me (someone who's already a fan of their series) from their mmo.
Fair enough. But the fact is they must sell the game (which is an MMO and not a SP game) to a much broader audience, otherwise it won't pay all the investment (and keep the game running for a long time).
Fair enough. But the fact is they must sell the game (which is an MMO and not a SP game) to a much broader audience, otherwise it won't pay all the investment (and keep the game running for a long time).
Isn't it possible that it would stand out in the mmo market and appeal to that same broad audience without the cartoony visuals?
Isn't it possible that it would stand out in the mmo market and appeal to that same broad audience without the cartoony visuals?
Wouldn't the graphics get old faster? Yes.
Wouldn't the graphics get old faster? Yes.
You do know that SW:Galaxies (for example) update the graphics every once in a while.
True, if they wanted it to look realistic it would get old quickly but what if they made the characters look like the ones in Kotor 1 & 2.. That (imo) is an improvement compared to the look they are going for.
True, if they wanted it to look realistic it would get old quickly but what if they made the characters look like the ones in Kotor 1 & 2.. That (imo) is an improvement compared to the look they are going for.
Ans isn't the KotOR look somewhat realistic?
Ans isn't the KotOR look somewhat realistic?
It is. I'm not on making a more realistic look though, I'm on about using the EXACT same look the last Kotor game had.
I think it would look better, be just as easy to run and in a way it would be cool for the fans of the old series
It is. I'm not on making a more realistic look though, I'm on about using the EXACT same look the last Kotor game had.
I think it would look better, be just as easy to run and in a way it would be cool for the fans of the old series
It would look better for how long? The cartoon look has a good reason to exist, and I understand it perfectly. And how can this game survive with just KotOR fans?
It would look better for how long? The cartoon look has a good reason to exist, and I understand it perfectly. And how can this game survive with just KotOR fans?
We misunderstand each other slightly.
I mean that the original look would permanently look better to cartoon graphics. (imo)
I'm not saying the mmo would survive on just kotor fans i'm just saying if they stuck with the original look they'd probably get more kotor fans playing the game. (like me) :)
I won't be playing it because it is an MMO. Now, I don't have anything against MMOs, I have something against buying a game for $30 then having to pay for the game all over again every month. That's why I will NEVER in my life play WoW. If they decide to have it free every month, I will definitely pick it up. If it's a low cost, like Runescape, then I'll consider it. I have bills to pay so I just can't afford to buy a game over and over again every month.
I'm not saying the mmo would survive on just kotor fans i'm just saying if they stuck with the original look they'd probably get more kotor fans playing the game. (like me) :)
But they can't think only on KotOR fans. They must do everything they can to ensure the game will last, and cartoon graphics is one way to accomplish that.
But they can't think only on KotOR fans. They must do everything they can to ensure the game will last, and cartoon graphics is one way to accomplish that.
I honestly don't see how cartoon graphic accomplishes that.
Where's this written rule that mmos have to have cartoon graphics to get people into their product?
If you're refering to casual gamers or WoW players, i'll say this:
I think the more this game has in common with WoW the less intresting it'll be to WoW players. Why you might ask? Well if it's similar in almost everyway why play TOR over WoW?
As for casual gamers something else will draw their attention away from this game around 3-12 months after it's release.
I honestly don't see how cartoon graphic accomplishes that.
I've written this before. Here:
Cartoon graphics don't get old as fast as realistic ones.
What do you define as "cartoon graphics"?
To me, "cartoon graphics" is The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, which was a surprising success. So if they can pull of "cartoon graphics" to make a good game, why not do so?
I've written this before. Here:
We're going over the same stuff here..
When you pointed out that they age better I responded that what you say is true but I don't think it suits the theme and detracts from the game itself.
What do you define as "cartoon graphics"?
To me, "cartoon graphics" is The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, which was a surprising success. So if they can pull of "cartoon graphics" to make a good game, why not do so?
I think there's some kind of misconception here that cartoony graphics are a key element to a mmo game being succsesful.
Basically I think a game they released 7 years ago had visuals that suited this type of game very well.
I think they're shooting themselves in the foot trying to make it look like WoW.
When you pointed out that they age better I responded that what you say is true but I don't think it suits the theme and detracts from the game itself.
But some don't think that. And just because they've bet on a cartoon look, doesn't mean they are trying to copy WoW.
just because they've bet on a cartoon look, doesn't mean they are trying to copy WoW.
I'm sorry man but i'm going to have to disagree with you here.
Bioware can lie to themselves (or the consumer) if they want and call it "Stylised Realism" but it's nothing more than mimicing WoW.
What? Just because of the stylised look? Please... :rolleyes:
I won't be playing it because it is an MMO. Now, I don't have anything against MMOs, I have something against buying a game for $30 then having to pay for the game all over again every month. That's why I will NEVER in my life play WoW. If they decide to have it free every month, I will definitely pick it up. If it's a low cost, like Runescape, then I'll consider it. I have bills to pay so I just can't afford to buy a game over and over again every month.
People use to say the same thing about cable TV. Today I spend $90 a month for cable TV. I spend $12 for my WoW account. I easily spend over twice as much time playing WoW then I do watching TV. To me, even with the month fee, MMOs are a much better deal. They are very cheap entertainment.
~Sith Lord Drew
What? Just because of the stylised look? Please... :rolleyes:
Don't roll your eyes at me man! :lol:
You know I have a point here. It's the same trap a lot of mmos fall into.
A company takes a franchise, makes an mmo, base the combat/graphics on WoW and then are amazed when their mmo flops.
Coincidence?? :raise:
Don't roll your eyes at me man! :lol:
You know I have a point here. It's the same trap a lot of mmos fall into.
A company takes a franchise, makes an mmo, base the combat/graphics on WoW and then are amazed when their mmo flops.
Coincidence?? :raise:
Do you have a source that says the combat and graphics are based on WoW? There were many games before WoW with stylised graphics. As for the combat, I don't see where it is related to WoW. So yes, I roll my eyes at what you said.
Cartoon Graphics don't age better, they were just low quality to begin with lol
Cartoon Graphics don't age better, they were just low quality to begin with lol
Exactly what i've been trying to explain.
Do you have a source that says the combat and graphics are based on WoW?
Well obviously Bioware didn't say "We just wanted to copy WoW's system", watch any of those gameplay videos it's WoW with lightsabers.
There were many games before WoW with stylised graphics.
So?
As for the combat, I don't see where it is related to WoW. So yes, I roll my eyes at what you said.
Watch a gameplay video and tell me in all honesty you'd think of World of Warcraft when looking at the combat.
Exactly what i've been trying to explain.
No need. Everyone knows that. Low system requirements is another factor that helps bringing more people to the game.
Well obviously Bioware didn't say "We just wanted to copy WoW's system", watch any of those gameplay videos it's WoW with lightsabers.
I don't think it is.
So?
So, it's not based on WoW. It's an option. Stylised or realistic graphics. They chose stylised, deal with it. There are many games with stylised graphics, and that doesn't make it a copy of WoW.
Watch a gameplay video and tell me in all honesty you'd think of World of Warcraft when looking at the combat.
In all honesty, It's not WoW combat. If you think it is, well, whatever...
What do you define as "cartoon graphics"?
Personally, for me, its the 'stylized realism'. The first non-TOR game that comes to mind is Team Fortress 2. And, well the stylizing makes sense with the game becauses its meant to be a funny, not serious game. But with TOR, from what we've seen, the only reason I've seen for their stylizing is that it lasts longer, which I tend to agree with. But I also see it as a way to save space, make textures that aren't as complex as, say, Mass Effect or Crysis.
Personally, for me, its the 'stylized realism'. The first non-TOR game that comes to mind is Team Fortress 2. And, well the stylizing makes sense with the game becauses its meant to be a funny, not serious game. But with TOR, from what we've seen, the only reason I've seen for their stylizing is that it lasts longer, which I tend to agree with. But I also see it as a way to save space, make textures that aren't as complex as, say, Mass Effect or Crysis.
Exactly.
No need. Everyone knows that. Low system requirements is another factor that helps bringing more people to the game.
Yes, I agree lower system requirements are a bonus. We seem to be disagreeing on what they could have done to maintain those same requirements.
I don't think it is.
Fair enough
So, it's not based on WoW. It's an option. Stylised or realistic graphics. They chose stylised, deal with it. There are many games with stylised graphics, and that doesn't make it a copy of WoW.
I'll just have to deal with it then... :eek:
In all honesty, It's not WoW combat. If you think it is, well, whatever...
I stand by my opinion. I will say though, even though we seem to be disagreeing a lot I am enjoying actually getting to talk about this. :)
Personally, for me, its the 'stylized realism'. The first non-TOR game that comes to mind is Team Fortress 2. And, well the stylizing makes sense with the game becauses its meant to be a funny, not serious game.
When you have a dialog heavy game that you are supposed to take a bit seriously can you see how that can put people off?
I'll just have to deal with it then... :eek:
Why the shock?
Why the shock?
It isn't real shock, i'm just trying to be funny.:thmbup1:
When you have a dialog heavy game that you are supposed to take a bit seriously can you see how that can put people off?
Some of the best stories I have ever seen told are cartoons. They don't put me off. But that's just me. Just to name a few:
Monsters Inc.
Batman Mask of the Phantasm
Appleseed ExMachina
How to Train your Dragon
Incredibles
~ Sith Lord Drew
Some of the best stories I have ever seen told are cartoons. They don't put me off. But that's just me. Just to name a few:
Monsters Inc.
Batman Mask of the Phantasm
Appleseed ExMachina
How to Train your Dragon
Incredibles
~ Sith Lord Drew
Fair enough but do you see my point?
A good story is a good story, In a video game though the visuals of the game help set an atmosphere. To have as much dialog as they're going to have and drive the dialog it just seems like a big contrast to have cartoon characters debating the semantics of how the force should be used (for example) seems to kill the immersion a bit.
You should have accredited the original quotes to me BTW.
I did qualify my statements with "most" If that's not you, then it's not you.
Stylized graphics, Well I tend to really like the very artistic design of the landscapes and environment. There are a few other good reasons for it. Lower graphics requirements. Could you see a game appealing to the masses that only a few have rigs capable of running?
Of course you bring up KotOR's graphics. They had like 30 total faces... Mass Effect, had very customizable faces, but again, the graphics requirement are double that of WoW. Not saying the graphics look like WoW, actually those graphics were boring. BUT I could see the reason for it.
I look at the in game footage, and quite frankly it looks better than KotOR, but less than ME.
And quite frankly I played a few games that used "Cell Shaded" and had very good stories as well. Then there's all the Graphic Novels out there that have artistic styling. Then there's movies like Sin City that also use stylized realism.
I have to disagree. Just because a movie is shot using live action does not make it more serious over a cartoon. IMO you can get the same attachment to a character when they love, cry, or are in pain no matter if they are an actor, or depicted as a cartoon.
~Sith Lord Drew
It isn't real shock, i'm just trying to be funny.:thmbup1:
Oh. Sorry then. ;)
You should have accredited the original quotes to me BTW.
I was afraid you'd freak out at me if I used your name seeing as I used them to start a new thread as opposed to replying within that thread.
Stylized graphics, Well I tend to really like the very artistic design of the landscapes and environment. There are a few other good reasons for it. Lower graphics requirements. Could you see a game appealing to the masses that only a few have rigs capable of running?
Don't get me wrong, I think the scenery looks cool enough. I just really hate how the characters look.
It's almost like placing Clone Wars Yoda into one of the films if you know what I mean?
I have to disagree. Just because a movie is shot using live action does not make it more serious over a cartoon. IMO you can get the same attachment to a character when they love, cry, or are in pain no matter if they are an actor, or depicted as a cartoon.
~Sith Lord Drew
I suppose that's where we differ a bit.
It's not so much that the characters are cartoonish, it's that it's cartoonish characters in a serious enough SW game. I just can't see me taking my character seriously.
My general experience is: Star Wars + Kid's Animation/Manga = :migraine:
They just don't mix well for me.
Oh. Sorry then. ;)
No problem. :lol: