http://bristol.indymedia.org/attachments/jan2009/landloss.jpg)

Waitasecond, there was a war somewhere around those dates, wasn't there? Oh, hold on a minute, every date on your photo corresponds with a war involving Israel and its neighbors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_wars).

You're suggesting that Israel ruthlessly annexed territory, that evil, power-hungry nation. If you bothered to check even the dates on your map, you would see that most territorial changes correspond exactly to wars in which Israel participated. I'm not saying that Israel doesn't have blood on its hands, but the land gained/lost during those time periods were the direct results of wars with neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc) and not an atrocious, brutal annexation of innocent people's land.

In this case, correlation and causation are entirely linked.

Also the pictures seem rather conveniently graphically inverse of one another. Curious.

I've never been a great supporter of Israel, but leaving the Israel/Palestine thing aside for a moment to focus on this 'Peace Flotilla', I find it hard to sympathise with the activists.

I'm not saying that Israel was right in its response - I think that it was a bit of an overreaction to intercept the vessels before they crossed the exclusion zone, even if it does have maritime law on its side, but it had made it clear to everyone that it would continue to enforce the blockade - yet it seems the leaders of this flotilla chose to ignore those warnings precisely because this would happen.

I hope that any "prompt, impartial, credible and transparent" investigation of the situation takes that into account.

Actually, I agree with you, Astor on both counts. Israel over reacted, but by the same token the 'activists' didn't give them a lot of alternatives. Both sides took brinksmanship to a fine degree, and a lot of people died because of it.

Your right, maybe the IDF could use a textbook that covers WW2. I'm not justifying Hamas or Hezbollah, nor am I applauding the idiots who fire off a dinky rockets into Israel. However, there is a stark and clear contrast between 2 deaths and 1000 deaths, that you apparently fail to see.



http://bristol.indymedia.org/attachments/jan2009/landloss.jpg)




I'm not claiming he's a liar, but currently, we can't get any activists to give their side of the story, as they are currently being interrogated in some Israeli facility. Do you honestly believe it was ok to open fire with assault rifles against a crowd with sticks and chairs? If other countries can disarm entire groups of pirates (with AKs) and ship them off to prison without any casualties, I don't see why it's so hard for the Israeli army to disarm a group of activists.




Like someone else said, these activists knowingly ran the blockade to prove a point, to confront injustice, probably to illicit an overreaction on the part of Israel. Do you think Hamas honestly believes they can take back Israel by firing rockets? No, they want to illicit an overreaction on the part of Israel so they lose the moral highground. Israel plays right into their hands everytime they open fire, drop bombs, or invade neighbors.

MLK and many students would knowingly sit in white only restaurants or walk by police barricades to illicit an overreaction on the side of injustice; then the TVs do their job and make said side look like fools.



Your right in that Hezbollah and Hamas differ from MLK as they both use violence to illicit greater violence, so they don't really follow the passive resistance philosophy; but their motives are the same: catalyze an overreaction by the aggressor. Palestine will probably never gain some leverage until an Arab MLK props up, which I highly doubt. The children there grow up being told the enemy is over there, that they are the cause of their suffering, and again, Israel plays helps to confirm and legitimize this propaganda by annually invading. So all Hamas has to say is: "See I told you so," and bam another basket of young fools runs out and gets killed.

However, the Arabs might not even need an MLK, if they keep popping out 7+ babies per family, they'll soon outnumber the Jews in Israel. I can't see how the current Israeli government can maintain power in future decades without instituting some sort of apartheid.


What your map ignores is that all of the west bank, the section of the country taken by Israel in the 67 war was to be deeded to the Palestinians By the Oslo Accords. Part of the problem is three organizations, Hamas, Islaamic Jihad and the PFLP still refuse to accept that the war would be over and they'd have peace and a homeland if they would stop setting of suicide bombs and calling it war. The average citizens on both sides are heartily sick of it, and only the loud minority shooting past them has kept it going for the last deacde.
Waitasecond, there was a war somewhere around those dates, wasn't there? Oh, hold on a minute, every date on your photo corresponds with a war involving Israel and its neighbors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_wars).

You're suggesting that Israel ruthlessly annexed territory, that evil, power-hungry nation. If you bothered to check even the dates on your map, you would see that most territorial changes correspond exactly to wars in which Israel participated. I'm not saying that Israel doesn't have blood on its hands, but the land gained/lost during those time periods were the direct results of wars with neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc) and not an atrocious, brutal annexation of innocent people's land.

In this case, correlation and causation are entirely linked.

Thanks, Lit, I thought i would have to bludgeon him over the head with this. Most of the 'West bank' is still undeveloped, and if the Palestinians would stop demanding every square centimeter be returned, there could be peace. After all, in the last 43 years the Israelis have built only about 19,000 homes in the West Bank, and most of themwere before the Oslo accords. The Gaza strip was returned completely, and Hamas immediately began digging tunnels to sneak bombs past the checkpoints. The map also ignores that there are a lot of small arab settlements throughout the West bank region. It's easier to lie than admit peace does have a chance.

But they have to admit that after three wars where they held all the cards and still lost, after 42 years of attacking civilians and calling it war, they have still not won. Once they have, they can push to have that land back the Israelis were willing to give, and settle down.

The way I see it, its sort of like elitist bikers and people who drive cars. The elitists bikers think that because they're technically allowed to ride like theyre in a car they should. Cars however are much larger. When a bike rides into a moving car, the car wins. Always. The peace flotilla thing is a bike. The Israeli military is a car. Yes, technically they were allowed to be there, however they went against what the car wanted. And surprise surprise, they got smashed.

Would you be reasonable if you were consistently starving everyday, housing oppressive soldiers, living in rubble, and constantly living in fear of air raids?

I'm not sure how believable the starving thing is considering Gaza recently opened its own Olympic standard swimming pool. (http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=285242) Surely, if the people of the Strip were starving, the Palestinian council would have asked the 'donors who helped realize the project' to instead provide food for a starving population.

I'm sure the average Palestinian just wants the nightmare to end

In the same vein, i'm sure that the average Israeli just wants the rockets to stop, too.

they just plain open fired on a group of civilians dressed like Na'vi.

I can't really fault them for that. I'd be very tempted to open fire on anyone dressed as a blue alien from a decidedly average sci-fi film. :p

My personal thought is that it would be great if wars were fought by the arses that started them. However that becomes difficult when you have a group that starts and perpetuates and they seem to have a supply of "some idiots with no future." Bad joke but heck rationally that is what I think of suicide bombers.

Mach is right in pointing out that it is easy to skewer facts, heck isn't that what interpretation is?, rather than take a difficult and often time consuming path like peace negotiations. I'm inclined to think that both sides are tired of the fighting but until the hard heads of Palestine stop demanding every grain of dirt returned and go with compromise, then its going to be a long winter.

My personal thought is that it would be great if wars were fought by the arses that started them. However that becomes difficult when you have a group that starts and perpetuates and they seem to have a supply of "some idiots with no future." Bad joke but heck rationally that is what I think of suicide bombers.

Mach is right in pointing out that it is easy to skewer facts, heck isn't that what interpretation is?, rather than take a difficult and often time consuming path like peace negotiations. I'm inclined to think that both sides are tired of the fighting but until the hard heads of Palestine stop demanding every grain of dirt returned and go with compromise, then its going to be a long winter.

As I said above I don't blame just the organizations, It's Sharon and Netanyau not being willing to let go of the acreage where houses were built after the Oslo Accord. It's allowing over reaction and some actually old ROEs (Rules of Engagement) when now they are detrimental. Up until 2000, standard procedure was counter battery for an artillery or rocket attack. Hezbollah used that to build public opinion by using those BM21 rocket launchers I mentioned; driving into a quiet neighborhood, launching of a dozen or so rockets, then running like hell as the counter battery levels the neighborhood. Another 'crime' to add to Israeli's count. What I'd like is a record of exactly how many times it's because of counter battery fire so you can shove that in their faces.

But they have to admit that after three wars where they held all the cards and still lost, after 42 years of attacking civilians and calling it war, they have still not won. Once they have, they can push to have that land back the Israelis were willing to give, and settle down.

Held all the cards? Your kidding right, remember that terrorist group that essentially waged guerilla warfare against Britian then declared Palestine to now be Israel? Remember the group Sharon was a part of? Anyone who has the backing of the U.S. and most of Europe definitely holds all the cards.

@Lit: Please don't put words in my mouth, never did I say there was a brutal annexation, but Israel usually uses "war" as an excuse to take and then keep more land than it really needs. I also never said the average Israeli is a bloodthirsty rumormonger, like some IDF war criminals and hardliners. I probably have more Jewish/Israeli than Arab friends, and most are reasonable people that refuse to support the violence on both sides. I'm sure the Palestinian farmer just wants to be able to sell crops without going through 10 checkpoints or getting shot, and I'm sure the average Israeli wants an end to a 30+ year of constant turbulence.

Mach, it's simply ridiculous that you keep generalizing and repeating that every Palestinian wants every square inch of land back immediately, and o', if only they say they want a couple miles then there will be peace and Israel wouldn't have to bomb the crap out of some city every year. I agree with you that a small minority on both sides keeps the warfare and violence going: Hamas and the hardliners feed off each other. Without the hardliners, Hamas would have 0 support in Palestine and would really have no platform, and without Hamas, the hardliners wouldn't get elected and allowed to continue their agressive agenda.

Held all the cards? Your kidding right, remember that terrorist group that essentially waged guerilla warfare against Britian then declared Palestine to now be Israel? Remember the group Sharon was a part of? Anyone who has the backing of the U.S. and most of Europe definitely holds all the cards.

In war there is a term to show who should win the battle, it's called available force. If you look at any war the Jews have fought except for the invasion of Lebanon, that force has always been on the Arab side. They outnumbered the Jews in every one, had more modern weapons and aircraft, and in the case of Jordan, even had British officers leading them.
As for us supporting them, all we did before 1967 was be the first to recognize them. Every piece of American equipment before 1968 was bought from European countries replacing their old equipment right down to the Sherman Firefly's bought from France, and the M48s bought from Germany. Before 68 everything was marked Made in the UK or Made in France, not made in the USA.

Oh, and BTW, the only organizations Sharon belonged to before the first war were not terrorist organizations, rather they were the group that later formed the modern Israelis army, Hassadeh Gadna, and Haganah. It was Menachem Begin who was actually the head of a terrorist organization, the Stern Gang, and Yitzhak Shamir who was the number three man in the same organization 1948.

As for 'having us on their side', why is it the only equipment they have not paid through the nose for in the last 30 years were the Patriot Batteries we gave them during the Gulf War? Oh and before you crow, they did pay for them afterward.

And about this 'if the US backs them they win' crap, ask Shah Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi and South Vietnamese President Thieu how much having America on their side bolstered their popularity back home.

Again as to 'annexation of what they don't need', Why did this horrible occupier return the Sinai? The simple answer was that when Begin that horrible hardliner, and Anwar Sadat, who was later assassinated for his pains; finally signed not an armstice, but a peace treaty. The peninsula was returned within a couple of years. Why do you think the 'occupied West Bank' was kept not as completely Israeli territory but as a military controlled region until the Oslo accords? For the same reason. In fact back in 2003 the Israelis unilaterally removed all the residences I mentioned a few posts ago. They relocated the Jews, sometime by force, leveled the houses, and returned the property to the Palestinian Authority. What horrible nasty people they are, giving it back, eh?

Mach, it's simply ridiculous that you keep generalizing and repeating that every Palestinian wants every square inch of land back immediately, and o', if only they say they want a couple miles then there will be peace and Israel wouldn't have to bomb the crap out of some city every year. I agree with you that a small minority on both sides keeps the warfare and violence going: Hamas and the hardliners feed off each other. Without the hardliners, Hamas would have 0 support in Palestine and would really have no platform, and without Hamas, the hardliners wouldn't get elected and allowed to continue their agressive agenda.

I never said 'every'. As you yourself pointed out in this comment, it is that vocal violent minority on both sides that have been doing it. I am sure that 'every Palestinian would like to have it all back, but they have already accepted they won't. If I remember correctly, it is you who have 'every' Palestinian starving, living in wrecked neighborhoods, and wishing the Israelis would leave them in peace.

As you said too, removing either of the hardline groups would end the problem.