QFT

In other related news...

MORE VOTER FRAUD (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/montana_gop_chief_out_after_fa.php) (there is a section for comments here, so please be advised that some language may be inappropriate for children, thank you.) ...interesting quote...



:xp:

And back to Ohio...
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-voter-registration-lawsuit,0,7676394.story)

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/president/30984579.html)

http://www.wgntv.com/landing_national/?Full-federal-appeals-court-sides-with-Oh=1&blockID=99807&feedID=23)

Seems to me the Republicans are on to something.

Additionally, I will take your lack of providing of sources to mean that the 'ACORN issue is gaining momentum' statement means that it is gaining momentum among the extremely conservative group who is grasping desperately at straws to try and slow down the momentum that Obama currently has. This of course has little relevance on whether or not it is influencing the undecided voters, which continued polls would indicate it is not.

It has to do with reports of posts being deleted on Obama forum sites and people being banned, after expressing concern about the ACORN issue.

The difference between this situation and Ayers is because he gave them campaign money, and there is an FBI investigation involved.

It also looks like the Hillary Clinton supporters are fired up, basically the line is Obama had ACORN help him cheat, among other things. I'm going to treat it as a rumor for now but if this is true we have a game changer.

http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/10/11/angry-hillary-supporters-helping-obama-voter-fraud-investigation/)

Note: I have no idea what the documentary videos will say, cause I don't have audio currently.


Here is a pro Hillary site http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=35498)
Another pro-Hillary site http://hillbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/clinton-supporters-sharing-evidence-for-rico-case-against-obama-campaign/)

I'm waiting for someone else to pick this up for confirmation though, other than flopping aces and Hillary supporter sites.


EDIT: Found something else that links Obama with ACORN http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election-2008/republicans-link-rival-to-voter-fraud-scheme-20081015-51hf.html)
Senator Obama helped Acorn and other groups register voters in 1992 when he was the director of Project Vote and last year hailed it for being "smack dab in the middle" of increasing voter participation. Acorn has endorsed Senator Obama in the presidential election.

And back to Ohio...

You do realize that you are comparing invalid voter registrations to the GOP actively trying to prevent the other party from voting....right?

Given your blatant bias I doubt it, but worth pointing out.

And has been pointed out on several occasions, in several threads, voter registration fraud is not the same as actual voter fraud. Voter registration fraud doesn't impact an election because people who don't exist but are registered to vote don't actually vote. Because they don't exist.

Nevermind that the election hasn't even taken place yet.

...in case those non-people actually did intend to vote.

And has been pointed out on several occasions, in several threads, voter registration fraud is not the same as actual voter fraud. Voter registration fraud doesn't impact an election because people who don't exist but are registered to vote don't actually vote. Because they don't exist.

Oh but it is, especially in Ohio, ever heard of same day registration, they can submit an absentee ballot in with their voter registration without any real identification.


Anyways Obama is trying to cover up the depth of his associations with ACORN and now trying to Cover up the cover up.
http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7203)
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/10/oops-obama-camp-caught-scrubbing-its.html)

Oh but it is, especially in Ohio, ever heard of same day registration, they can submit an absentee ballot in with their voter registration without any real identification.If it's as easy as all that why have all investigations past and present found no incident of major voter fraud? The only thing that's ever been discovered is voter registration fraud. Remember that the actual voter fraud is likely going to have to be in massive numbers in order to sway a presidential election.

Oh but it is, especially in Ohio, ever heard of same day registration, they can submit an absentee ballot in with their voter registration without any real identification.

no, so I googled it. It's a new ruling actually, as of September 30th through august 6th, voters can register AND vote on the same day. And yes, no ID is required.

They CANNOT register AND vote on "election day" Nov 4th.

Indeed, and from August 6th to November 4th is a lot of time for election officials to determine if those votes come from eligible sources.

Indeed, and from August 6th to November 4th is a lot of time for election officials to determine if those votes come from eligible sources.

Sorry, my brain was backwards when I wrote that, it's September 30th to October 6th. So the deadline still passed quite some time ago.

If it's as easy as all that why have all investigations past and present found no incident of major voter fraud? The only thing that's ever been discovered is voter registration fraud. Remember that the actual voter fraud is likely going to have to be in massive numbers in order to sway a presidential election.

Excuse me, but what investigation? The Ohio Secretary of State is still stonewalling. And lot of elections have been decided recently by a few hundred votes, and we're looking at potentially thousands fraudulent ballots, fraudulent voter registrations, etc.


Anyways, the voter fraud (remember many of them are being submitted with absentee ballots and no photo ID) situation can be proven true just using math that I believe even a kindergartner could understand.

Indianapolis, Indiana 105% of the population that is eligible to vote is registered. In other words there are more people registered than are legally eligible to vote.
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/more_voter_registration_shenanigans_indianapolis_h) as_105_of_its_population/
http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2008/10/07/news/top_news/doc775d398de8488399862574da008320af.txt)
Nevada - FBI raided ACORN offices
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/100808dnspocowvote.303ea03.html)

Even MSNBC can't deny it:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27075582/)

Missouri: ACORN is under investigation yet again, oh and people have been convicted before.
In April, eight ACORN workers in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting false registration cards for the 2006 election. U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway said they submitted cards with false addresses and names, and forged signatures.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_el_ge/voter_fraud)

whoops! I actually read an article on the early voting but accidentally echoed the August typo as well.

Still an entire month for election officials to go over early votes is more than enough to weed out most if not all ineligible votes that were cast.

Edit - You really ought to read the articles you're linking GarfieldJL, one of them explicitly states that ACORN themselves notified officials about the fraudulent registrations
Charles Jackson, communications director for ACORN, said Monday its administrators screened out the 1,100 registration forms in question and warned county officials the documents were suspect. He said ACORN left the final decision to discard the forms to county officials.

He said ACORN has fired and reported to law enforcement any employees suspected of vote fraud.

"We consider it stealing from ACORN," Jackson said

Still an entire month for election officials to go over early votes is more than enough to weed out most if not all ineligible votes that were cast.

Actually, we're down to a few days now due to Ohio law, unless the US Supreme Court orders an extension on the deadline due to the Ohio Secretary of State's stonewalling and preventing these absentee ballots from being checked, once they are opened there is no way to figure out which one is legit and which isn't and she knows that.

Last time I checked, Voter Fraud did not equal Election Fraud (correct me if I am mistaken). From my understanding, the workers paid by the amount of cards filled out, are just making up names. So are "Han Solo," and "Mickey Mouse," really going to vote (again, correct me if I am mistaken)?

Nope, pretty sure that you hit the crux of the real issue (not the fake one) right on the head. Kudos.

Last time I checked, Voter Fraud did not equal Election Fraud (correct me if I am mistaken). From my understanding, the workers paid by the amount of cards filled out, are just making up names. So are "Han Solo," and "Mickey Mouse," really going to vote (again, correct me if I am mistaken)?

Depends if you are of the feline persuasion or not... in the human world we like to call reality no they are not the same thing. So you are correct. :D

Last time I checked, Voter Fraud did not equal Election Fraud (correct me if I am mistaken). From my understanding, the workers paid by the amount of cards filled out, are just making up names. So are "Han Solo," and "Mickey Mouse," really going to vote (again, correct me if I am mistaken)?

If we're talking about Ohio, then the answer would be yes, because they don't have to show ID in the absentee ballots.

There are a few other states where this is the case.


Anyways looks like the supreme court just threw the election to Obama. They are basically saying that a private citizen can't sue the state. Since Ohio's governor is a Democrat, any credibility in this election has been thrown out the window.

The Secretary argues both that the District Court had no jurisdiction to enter the TRO and that its ruling on the merits was erroneous. We express no opinion on the question whether HAVA is being properly implemented. Respondents, however, are not sufficiently likely to prevail on the question whether Congress has authorized the District Courtto enforce Section 303 in an action brought by a private litigant to justify the issuance of a TRO.
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/08A332.pdf)


So as one can see they didn't even rule on the fact she was breaking the law, they just basically argued that they weren't even allowed to sue. I'm going to guess right off the cuff that this was a 5-4 ruling, the 4 liberals plus justice Kennedy (the swing vote) are the majority, and the 4 conservative justices are the minority.

There probably isn't going to be a lot of new info here for people that have been following this via legitimate news sources, however I thought it might be a helpful "level-set" nonetheless.

Link (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j1i507fXjfsBwZ92ujqRSSV12niAD93RSCE80)

There probably isn't going to be a lot of new info here for people that have been following this via legitimate news sources, however I thought it might be a helpful "level-set" nonetheless.

Link (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j1i507fXjfsBwZ92ujqRSSV12niAD93RSCE80)

I don't really care what the left wing propaganda's excuse for journalism, the AP says, they have as much credibility as the New York Times and ABC news, no credibility whatsoever.

ABC News using Obama Contributer as Expert witness:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/terry-trippany/2008/10/17/abc-news-used-obama-contributor-expert-defense-acorn)

NBC and MSNBC example conflict of interest:

"Meet the Press" interim moderator Tom Brokaw sits on the board of a liberal foundation that has given radical left-wing group ACORN $821,000 and that in turn is funded by liberal uber-donor George Soros, research reveals.


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-vadum/2008/10/17/flash-tom-brokaw-involved-soros-funded-charity-funds-acorn)

An example of the AP's lack of credibility:
Well, the AP has done it again. They have given us leftist propaganda and painted it as news. This time they have published the results of a "study" that claims that "Bush lied" in the run-up to Iraq and somehow the AP forgot to mention that the organization that released this study was funded by extreme leftist George Soros, who has spent billions funding the Democrat Party and many far left think tank and advocacy organizations. Yeah, THAT study is going to be legitimate!

Another link about the AP:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/02/16/ap-attacks-mccains-temper-edited-f-words)

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2007/07/29/acorn-vote-registration-fraud-wa-are-there-2004-ramifications)

Relates to Photo IDs for Voter ID:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/jason-aslinger/2008/04/29/supreme-court-splintered-only-conservative-decisions)

Now I actually quoted the ruling, and to be frank the Supreme Court only said that the GOP didn't have any authority to sue in the first place which is garbage.

I also know the current makeup of the Supreme Court because we've covered it in my History Class concerning the United States Constitution.

I don't really care what the left wing propaganda's excuse for journalism, the AP says, they have as much credibility as the New York Times and ABC news, no credibility whatsoever.

An example of the AP's lack of credibility:

Now I actually quoted the ruling, and to be frank the Supreme Court only said that the GOP didn't have any authority to sue in the first place which is garbage.

I also know the current makeup of the Supreme Court because we've covered it in my History Class concerning the United States Constitution.

You know, you could shorten your posts considerably by just saying "Any source that does not share my exact right wing point of view is invalid".

I don't really care what the left wing propaganda's excuse for journalism, the AP saysNo, I think we're all quite aware that you only care what right wing propaganda's excuse for journalism has to say.

ADFO

No, I think we're all quite aware that you only care what right wing propaganda's excuse for journalism has to say.

ADFO

Actually, considering that most journalists (in the United States) believe it or not are registered democrats and it is extremely difficult for conservatives to survive in the news business because any mistake they make will be jumped all over by left wingers in the Main Steam media, I would find a conservative news source more reliable and here is why.


Comparison it's a logic reasoning:
When one of the rest of the media makes a gaff or is dishonest, they don't pick up on that fact as being dishonest, or they report it as though it's true, or they calmly sweep it under the rug and walk away.

If someone on Fox News makes even an accidental gaff or even as minute as a typo, you have everyone and their grandma in the mainstream media jumping all over them trying to paint them as dishonest.

In conclusion:

Fox News gets held to a higher standard than the "establishment" because the mainstream media is so eager to find any fault they can to discredit them. Therefore, it seems like Fox News is more credible because they aren't in the "good ol boys" network.

Anyways stop trying to paint me as an idealogue, it took time for Fox News to earn my trust, and I did my own research on the side. (Like actually reading the Supreme Court Ruling).

My response (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise)

ADFO

Anyways stop trying to paint me as an idealogue, it took time for Fox News to earn my trust, and I did my own research on the side. (Like actually reading the Supreme Court Ruling).

Ehh... stop acting like an ideologue then? You tout sources with blatant biases (you need only look at the top of the page of the "Newsbusters" site you just linked to to ascertain their slant on things) and then slam every news source for being biased whenever their bias doesn't coincide with yours.

Nevermind that the election hasn't even taken place yet.

...in case those non-people actually did intend to vote.

Once the absentee ballots are open there is no way to match up which ones came from the fraudulent registrations.


That's what the Ohio Secretary of State is counting on, and the FBI is involved in several states investigating the matter.

Step 1: When cornered, ignore point and respond to 2 day old post.
Step 2: Hope no one notices.

ADFO.

Article - Obama's General Counsel Asks Special Prosecutor to Investigate McCain Campaign's Claims of Voter Fraud (http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2008/10/obamas-general.html)

Robert Bauer, general counsel for Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign, sent a letter to Attorney General Michael Mukasey requesting that special prosecutor Nora Dannehy add recent allegations of partisan misconduct within the Justice Department to her investigation of criminal offenses stemming from the 2006 U.S. Attorney firings.

In his letter, Bauer, a partner in Perkins Coie's Washington office, alleges that Sen. John McCain’s presidential campaign and the Republican Party made false claims of voting fraud as part of a Republican effort to influence the presidential election. The letter accuses Republican officeholders of calling on the Justice Department to investigate allegations of fraud, and Justice Department officials of spurring what he called "baseless" investigations.

“History is repeating itself. As Election Day approaches — just as in 2004 and 2006 — Republican Party officials and operatives nationwide, including the candidates themselves, are fomenting specious vote fraud allegations, and there are disturbing indications of official involvement or collusion,” Bauer writes.

Bauer says a McCain assertion during Wednesday’s presidential debate -- that voter fraud threatened “the fabric of democracy” -- is an example of a false claim. Bauer is wrong. Voter fraud does threaten the integrity of our election process.

In a teleconference call today, Bauer said the McCain campaign’s claims of voter fraud put unnecessary pressure on the Justice Department to investigate unsubstantiated allegations and that two officials within the department had anonymously leaked information about fraud investigations to the media. Untrue. We need to make sure our election process is safe from fraud; thus, allowing the American citizen to execute a more credible and secure process. More pressure on the Justice Department will get things moving. We can't let this fall to the side.

Not to mention the voting fraud claims were proven to be true.

Not to mention the voting fraud claims were proven to be true.Voter registration fraud happened. Not the same thing.

Voter fraud does threaten the integrity of our election process. It certainly does. Just as it has in the last two elections.
We need to make sure our election process is safe from fraud; thus, allowing the American citizen to execute a more credible and secure process. More pressure on the Justice Department will get things moving. We can't let this fall to the side. Agree, but seeing how they have not jump on vote counting errors like the Volusia error from 2000. I would not count on it.

Not to mention the voting fraud claims were proven to be true.
When? Not in this election process.

Voter registration fraud happened. Not the same thing. ET Warrior pointed out my error. :lol: I missed the word registration. :headbump

It certainly does. Just as it has in the last two elections.

Where have you been? Voter fraud isn't new. It isn't a 12 year old event. It's been a problem since before Kennedy(at least). It has been noticed more as of late, but the problem goes back a long way. Unless of course the dead keep rising from their graves to vote... then we got a bigger problem to deal with... :eek:

*pulls out handbook on fighting undead*

Where have you been? Voter fraud isn't new. It makes a bigger difference when the country is so divided and the vote is so close. Oh and it is not just the dead voting that is the problem. It is also those that never even show up to the polls and those that actually somehow come back to the polls and take away their votes after voting. Someone explain to me how you can get negative votes.

Using voting machines that have been known to be horribly insecure for two+ years?

Where have you been? Voter fraud isn't new. It isn't a 12 year old event. It's been a problem since before Kennedy(at least). It has been noticed more as of late, but the problem goes back a long way. Unless of course the dead keep rising from their graves to vote... then we got a bigger problem to deal with... :eek:

*pulls out handbook on fighting undead*

Hey, Chicago has a great history of registering the dead in order to vote early and often. :lol:

Voter fraud doesn't happen until the actual election, of course, but can anyone tell me what the point is for voter registration fraud, if not to be able to commit voter fraud later on? I don't think ACORN's planning on turning them into Christmas cards. :) We can split hairs all we want on voter registration fraud vs. voter fraud, and they are different, but the end result is still voter fraud if any of those false registrations are used for voting.

We have 49 people (and counting) in WI having little chats with authorities now because they've allegedly committed voter registration fraud, and the concern here is that those false registrations will be used by people associated with ACORN and even Obama staff to vote for Obama now. It's a very serious issue here because WI is one of the swing states. The fact that these 49 people are from ACORN (and a related group) and Obama has been associated with ACORN does not help Obama at all, even though there's no evidence Obama committed any kind of fraud and Obama has in fact denounced voter registration/voter fraud.

I think I mentioned in another thread that the issue isn't if Obama's complicit in Acorn's voter registration fraud problems, the issue is 'what happens if the vote is very close in swing states'. If it is close, those states where ACORN has been very active or where there are a lot of allegations of registration fraud are going to be mired in lawsuits and investigations for months, and we surely do not need another repeat of 2000.

The voter registration fraud happens because the people ACORN hires to register voters don't want to do any actual work, so they just fill out of a bunch of cards and turn them in to get their wages.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html)

The voter registration fraud happens because the people ACORN hires to register voters don't want to do any actual work, so they just fill out of a bunch of cards and turn them in to get their wages.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html)

Can you guarantee that none of those fraudulent registrations are going to get used for voter fraud?

No, and I also cannot guarantee that Barack Obama isn't really a robot sent from the future to destroy us all. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Well, hopefully voter fraud/registration fraud will never be an issue where you vote.

Unfortunately, I think we will see voter fraud stemming from voter registration fraud. I don't think it will necessarily be confined to one party, by the way.

http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2538223&postcount=32)

I understand that it's likely to be nothing more than a bunch of people who registered fake people to get paid, but the integrity of the entire process is still in question. If we had a good way to find and remove all the fake registrations, no problem, other than for the people who violated the law for filing these false registrations. However, we don't, and we don't know how many fake registrations are going to be used, and if it will have an effect on the election. Achilles' source says this: "even when fraudulent voter registration forms are submitted, they virtually never lead to fraudulent votes being cast."
"Virtually never" is not the same as "never". Nor is there a credible source quoted saying how many fraud votes have indeed been made. The truth is we have no idea how many fraudulent votes have been cast in the past, and we might not know how many, if any, are fraudulent this time, either. The goal, however, should still be ZERO fraud, and brushing this off as no big deal because these people just wanted to make some money filling out forms is irresponsible. It is a huge concern in my state because of the sheer numbers of people found filing fraudulent registrations--not just in ACORN but in at least one other organization, too. We have 49 people who filed thousands of false registrations here in WI (and if you prefer a more liberal source, check out the Milwaukee Sentinel-Journal), and no one knows what's going to happen with those registrations. Once someone is listed as registered in WI, they don't have to show any ID to vote, so we aren't going to be able to catch those committing voter fraud at the polls. WI won't even cross-check addresses on voter registrations against drivers' licenses because "it would be too difficult to do that with the database we have".

People here can blithely write it off as right-wing hysterics, but in my state, I can no longer count on voter integrity because of some groups taking horrible advantage of a badly broken system in WI. Voter fraud works both ways--ACORN may be the most highlighted group right now, but what if some Republican groups are doing the same thing, just much more quietly? I want as many legitimate people as possible to get registered to vote and then go to the polls to get their voices heard. I do not, however, want my vote negated by some slimeball manipulating the system, and there's a very real concern about that happening in my state.

Wait the other side is doing this too? YPM (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE49K0A120081021)

I wonder how many people would change their tunes if it was a Republican group caught doing this. Actually I'm sure there are Republicans doing this. The scary part is we really have no idea how bad the problem is.

I wonder how many people would change their tunes if it was a Republican group caught doing this. Actually I'm sure there are Republicans doing this. The scary part is we really have no idea how bad the problem is.
The Republican's have been caught doing it. (see link above) Why do you think McCain and Palin have suddenly gone silent on these charges? YPM (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/washingtondc/la-me-fraud18-2008oct18,0,6338789.story) or Lincoln Strategy (http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/103846/_mccain_employing_gop_operative_accused_of_voter_r) egistration_fraud/)

Not saying two wrongs makes a right, but both sides are involved.

Oh, even better--hundreds of ballots that were supposed to have been mailed to voters in Racine, WI did not make it to those voters. No one knows where those ballots are--if they've been stolen, if they're still sitting on someone's desk somewhere, or what. New ones were sent out with instructions to destroy the new one if the person already sent in the old one. Of course, even though the ballots are numbered, there's no way to know if the first ballot or the second one is actually the correct ballot....I'm so disgusted with all the voting problems and outright fraud.

Remember though some states were decided by only a few thousand votes, and we could be looking at 200,000 questionable ballots in Ohio alone.

Btw. Kudos to Lou Dobbs for reporting on this:

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/10/02/lou-dobbs-alone-msm-skeptical-ohio-early-voting-abuse)