And what did you do as research? Obama started his state senate campaign in Ayers' house for crying out loud, you can't honestly expect or anyone else to believe there is no association...
Source?

Anyways, if you look at the kids in the video I posted it looks awfully like the Hitler Youth movement, which in my opinion is scary putting it mildly.
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2439/emotgodwinjh7.gif) I'm sorry, but the laws of internet debate dictate that you have just lost.

And is that youth movement endorsed by Obama? If it is, you may have something. If he doesn't, then you have nothing.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2439/emotgodwinjh7.gif) I'm sorry, but the laws of internet debate dictate that you have just lost.


Well do you have any other way to describe it, a militant style march with students for Obama, I'm not sure if Obama has anything to do with this or not in fairness, this topic is about the teacher responsible for this, and I'm using this as an example of a teacher abusing their power.



And is that youth movement endorsed by Obama? If it is, you may have something. If he doesn't, then you have nothing.

Uh I'm going to be looking for it, the first one I posted I'm not sure there is, but the topic is about teachers not Obama specifically. The second I believe there is a connection and I'll look into it.

Offhand though Hannity & Colmes covered this tonight.

Well do you have any other way to describe it, a militant style march with students for Obama, I'm not sure if Obama has anything to do with this or not in fairness, this topic is about the teacher responsible for this, and I'm using this as an example of a teacher abusing their power.
Right, and it just happened to be something anti-Obama? If it was just this one isolated incident, I can believe the coincidence. But you've turned pretty much every recent thread in Kavar's into an anti-Obama/anti-Democrat rant. So don't even give me that about being on-topic.

Uh I'm going to be looking for it, the first one I posted I'm not sure there is, but the topic is about teachers not Obama specifically. The second I believe there is a connection and I'll look into it.
Right, so you don't have anything. You just linked these articles in your quest to make Obama look bad without even checking if Obama had anything to do with these groups. Good job.

Offhand though Hannity & Colmes covered this tonight.
I don't care about Hannity and Colmes, talking heads are usually full of ****. That, and this has nothing to do with the topic you are allegedly trying to get back on track. So please stop bringing them up.

Right, and it just happened to be something anti-Obama? If it was just this one isolated incident, I can believe the coincidence. But you've turned pretty much every recent thread in Kavar's into an anti-Obama/anti-Democrat rant. So don't even give me that about being on-topic.


Considering these are youth groups for Obama, it ties to Barack Obama, I'm not going to lie about who these groups are supporting.


Right, so you don't have anything. You just linked these articles in your quest to make Obama look bad without even checking if Obama had anything to do with these groups. Good job.


Rouge Nine, they are supporting Barack Obama, I'm not going to lie and say they're supporting John McCain. I'm simply giving the facts, I'm not sure if it is tied to Senator Obama or not and I'm going to look in on it, but the Teachers Unions are generally endorsing Senator Obama.



I don't care about Hannity and Colmes, talking heads are usually full of ****. That, and this has nothing to do with the topic you are allegedly trying to get back on track. So please stop bringing them up.

You asked me for a source, I answered.


Back to topic, at the very least the instructors involved are way out of line, and I don't think they should even be teaching.

Considering these are youth groups for Obama, it ties to Barack Obama, I'm not going to lie about who these groups are supporting.
So, because they support Obama, Obama automatically supports them? That's not very good logic. It's like saying the people support the oil companies. Do the oil companies necessarily support the people?

I'm simply giving the facts, I'm not sure if it is tied to Senator Obama or not and I'm going to look in on it, but the Teachers Unions are generally endorsing Senator Obama.
Facts can be skewed, as I'm sure you've seen. As for the Teacher's Union supporting Obama, I'd ask for a source, but I'd bet that what you say is true. Based on the past eight years of Republican leadership, I'm not surprised.

Back to topic, at the very least the instructors involved are way out of line, and I don't think they should even be teaching.
As I've stated before, I don't believe that the teacher should be fired. He may have been out of line, but there are far worse things he could have done rather than support a political ideal.

So, because they support Obama, Obama automatically supports them? That's not very good logic. It's like saying the people support the oil companies. Do the oil companies necessarily support the people?


I'm not sure if he supports them or not but if it were me and it were people supporting me I'd honestly be publically calling for them to be fired.


Facts can be skewed, as I'm sure you've seen. As for the Teacher's Union supporting Obama, I'd ask for a source, but I'd bet that what you say is true. Based on the past eight years of Republican leadership, I'm not surprised.


Most unions support the Democrat Party, particularly the teachers unions.


As I've stated before, I don't believe that the teacher should be fired. He may have been out of line, but there are far worse things he could have done rather than support a political ideal.

You mean aside from violating Federal Law, he's an authority figure abusing his power in a way that is inexcusable. He needs to be fired.

Considering these are youth groups for Obama, it ties to Barack Obama, I'm not going to lie about who these groups are supporting.
Yeah, I'm not asking you to lie. But the fact of the matter is that you're taking every opportunity to smear Obama with slanted stories.

Rouge Nine
It's Rogue Nine, thanks.

they are supporting Barack Obama, I'm not going to lie and say they're supporting John McCain. I'm simply giving the facts, I'm not sure if it is tied to Senator Obama or not and I'm going to look in on it
Not tied to Senator Obama, but you clearly left that part out. You didn't give all the relevant facts. Gee, this is a FoxNews tactic, hmmm...

but the Teachers Unions are generally endorsing Senator Obama.
See Litofsky's post.

You asked me for a source, I answered.
Not one that I can readily read. And I'd hardly call Hannity and Colmes a reputable source of unskewed information.

Back to topic, at the very least the instructors involved are way out of line, and I don't think they should even be teaching.
I don't think any of those kids were coerced into attending these youth groups. Caring about politics seems like an odd activity for an eight-grader anyway. So you can't really say he's abusing his power as a teacher over these kids. Yeah, he was probably taking money from the school to support the group and that shouldn't be the case, but he's certainly not indoctrinating them with beliefs they don't already have.

Yeah, I'm not asking you to lie. But the fact of the matter is that you're taking every opportunity to smear Obama with slanted stories.


No, I'm just vetting him which the mainstream media hasn't done.



Not tied to Senator Obama, but you clearly left that part out. You didn't give all the relevant facts. Gee, this is a FoxNews tactic, hmmm...


Not sure one way or the other, and Fox News isn't the one saying the Obama campaign is tied to this, but there is a pretty major pattern here. Be honest, if this were a group for John McCain you'd be calling for McCain's head.

Not one that I can readily read. And I'd hardly call Hannity and Colmes a reputable source of unskewed information.


I have yet to see you post a legitimate source (or at least one that most conservatives would consider legitimate). Even Alan has given in to the fact that Sean has brought up valid information, though he acts as though it isn't a big deal.


I don't think any of those kids were coerced into attending these youth groups. Caring about politics seems like an odd activity for an eight-grader anyway. So you can't really say he's abusing his power as a teacher over these kids. Yeah, he was probably taking money from the school to support the group and that shouldn't be the case, but he's certainly not indoctrinating them with beliefs they don't already have.

Considering my parents are in education, and their reactions Rogue I'd have to differ with your there, his use of Federal Money like this is a Felony that could result in prison time.

No, I'm just vetting him which the mainstream media hasn't done.I haven't seen half the amount of coverage about McCain and his past as I've seen on Obama.

Not sure one way or the other, and Fox News isn't the one saying the Obama campaign is tied to this, but there is a pretty major pattern here. Be honest, if this were a group for John McCain you'd be calling for McCain's head.Don't try and mirror your response onto everyone else.

I have yet to see you post a legitimate source (or at least one that most conservatives would consider legitimate). Even Alan has given in to the fact that Sean has brought up valid information, though he acts as though it isn't a big deal.A convenient way to get out of being wrong.

No, I'm just vetting him which the mainstream media hasn't done.
Smearing him as a terrorist, saying he's some how complicit in the Obama Youth rally thing # vetting. It is political smear.

Not sure one way or the other, and Fox News isn't the one saying the Obama campaign is tied to this, but there is a pretty major pattern here.
The fact remains you left out the fact that Obama clearly does not endorse this. Why? Because you want to make him look bad. You skewed the facts to make it fit your purposes. Do you deny this?

Be honest, if this were a group for John McCain you'd be calling for McCain's head.
No, I wouldn't. What people choose to believe and do on their own time is no concern of mine, especially if it is not endorsed by a candidate.

I have yet to see you post a legitimate source (or at least one that most conservatives would consider legitimate).
I'm not the one making ridiculous claims. I'm merely responding to your points as I interpret them, so I don't really need sources. If I were to make a generalized statement on factual matters, I would do my best to include a non-biased source.

Even Alan has given in to the fact that Sean has brought up valid information, though he acts as though it isn't a big deal.
I'm hereby ignoring any further references you make to Hannity as they are not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Considering my parents are in education, and their reactions Rogue I'd have to differ with your there, his use of Federal Money like this is a Felony that could result in prison time.
Well, that's fine if the federal laws see it that way. But the fact of the matter is he was not told to do it by Obama.

Smearing him as a terrorist, saying he's some how complicit in the Obama Youth rally thing # vetting. It is political smear.

That, and the fact that he's also accused Obama of being a Terrorist. (Don't try to wriggle your way out of that - Guilt by Participation you posted in another thread)

And now, you're saying that he's got a Hitler style cult following him around?

No, I'm just vetting him which the mainstream media hasn't done.


Oh, well then. I didn't realize that the United States was relying on you to "vet" Obama.

_EW_

Maybe this sounds hard, but:

America has the most ludicrous system of voting for their leader in the world.
If you want to be a president:
-appear on as much cool talk shows as possible.
-do funky stuff (dancing at Elen Degeneres will help)
-talk like you know what you are doing
-let the advisers make all the decisions while you go on vacation

Seriously. Not to say we have it any better here, but we vote for a political party over here. Their ideals, their history, their speeches. Not how many times they appeared on talkshow X or Y.
Plus, our 'leader' will actually live under the people. And their salary is set on (I believe) 80.000 euro's. What a good businessman would get.

With all the respect, how can you take America seriously this way? They potentially vote for the 'world leader' but in a way that makes all other people smack their head in frustration. Bush can go stand-up if he wanted after this. All puppets on strings.

^^^^
You're 1) generalizing and 2) confusing the "the system" and how it is used. Yes, some people do make their decision this way, however that doesn't mean that is how our system works or even that a statistically significant percentage of registered voters follow this practice. It's like criticizing how lousy a particular rock is at driving nails when the reality is that it was never intended to be used for that purpose anyway.

If you would like to point out where any of the above steps for election appear in our Constitution I'll gladly stand corrected.

Oh, well then. I didn't realize that the United States was relying on you to "vet" Obama.

_EW_

I shouldn't have to be but the "mainstream" media isn't doing their job.

I shouldn't have to be but the "mainstream" media isn't doing their job.

In whose opinion?

In whose opinion?

Most conservatives for starters. At least that's what polls have shown for a long while.

Most conservatives for starters.

Oh, of course.

Most conservatives for starters. At least that's what polls have shown for a long while.

So, just to be sure, the other, not-conservative half of America does not think this. Just clarifying that ya kno, the "liberal media" isn't actually biased at all, and some people just are upset that it's not pandering to them.

I don't see what's wrong with informing students of things... At my school they have a pro-environmentalist slideshow movie running on a small TV in the main courtyard of the school, talking about how it would help if simply one out of 5 people recycled things more often...

I don't see what's wrong with giving kids the facts- kids can have an effect on the election by volunteering to help with a campaign if they can't vote.

But giving kids mindless propaganda is bad.

Also, with today's society, and a world of information at anybodies fingertips, i'd much rather have children learn this stuff in stages, in a controlled environment, as opposed to say, stumbling onto a website that could potentially pose all sorts of questions for a toddler, child or young adult.

"Daddy, what's a MILF?" >_>

Also, with today's society, and a world of information at anybodies fingertips, i'd much rather have children learn this stuff in stages, in a controlled environment, as opposed to say, stumbling onto a website that could potentially pose all sorts of questions for a toddler, child or young adult.

This is why parents need to be more responsible these days, again though you're not addressing the fact that teachers are abusing their authority positions to indoctrinate children for a radical political ideaology.

So, just to be sure, the other, not-conservative half of America does not think this. Just clarifying that ya kno, the "liberal media" isn't actually biased at all, and some people just are upset that it's not pandering to them.

That explains the CBS Debacle of 2004 (ie memogate), the New York Times debacle of 2008, the MSNBC debacle during the conventions this year etc., all of which were targetting conservatives, and/or trying to paint liberals as good. Nevermind the fact all three are examples of rampant bias.

This is why parents need to be more responsible these days, again though you're not addressing the fact that teachers are abusing their authority positions to indoctrinate children for a radical political ideaology.

Or is just that it isn't the right indoctrination?

This is why parents need to be more responsible these days, again though you're not addressing the fact that teachers are abusing their authority positions to indoctrinate children for a radical political ideaology.If you want to accuse teachers of brainwashing kids with "radical political ideology", then you might as accuse the parents. After all, we've been brainwashed since birth.

That explains the CBS Debacle of 2004 (ie memogate), the New York Times debacle of 2008, the MSNBC debacle during the conventions this year etc., all of which were targetting conservatives, and/or trying to paint liberals as good. Nevermind the fact all three are examples of rampant bias.Prove it. All that you've given us are simply statements of your own opinion.

Basically, all that you have told is in this thread and in this forum is that liberals are hell spawn and that conservatives are our golden saviors, and you've done so by presenting "facts", which are really just opinions dressed up as the truth.

If you want to accuse teachers of brainwashing kids with "radical political ideology", then you might as accuse the parents. After all, we've been brainwashed since birth.


The teachers brainwashed them into supporting a particular political candidate. The teacher used Federal Money for starters, so right there it is illegal, but it's called abusing their position of power to brainwash kids into supporting a particular individual, now that is wrong.



Prove it. All that you've given us are simply statements of your own opinion.

Basically, all that you have told is in this thread and in this forum is that liberals are hell spawn and that conservatives are our golden saviors, and you've done so by presenting "facts", which are really just opinions dressed up as the truth.

CBS Memogate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memogate)

Reuters 2006: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War_photographs_controversies)

New York Times Contraversy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The_New_York_Times)
Particularly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain_lobbyist_controversy,_February_2008)
The New York Times hit piece was proven to be bogus too

MSNBC Contraversy:
Some supporters of the Democratic Party have criticized MSNBC during and after the 2008 Democratic Primaries, accusing it of covering Barack Obama much more favorably than Hillary Clinton. Democratic Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell, who supported Hillary Clinton in the primaries and currently supports Barack Obama, called MSNBC's coverage "absolutely embarrassing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSNBC)

Article goes on to say:
In a May 2008 appearance at the John F. Kennedy Jr. Forum at Harvard University, an audience member asked Chris Matthews if MSNBC officially supports Barack Obama. Matthews responded that “Well, it’s not official.”

wikipedia's source: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=523508#)

Another article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/business/media/08msnbc.html?_r=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&oref=slogin)

I think this is a good start as far as sources.

The teachers brainwashed them into supporting a particular political candidate. The teacher used Federal Money for starters, so right there it is illegal, but it's called abusing their position of power to brainwash kids into supporting a particular individual, now that is wrong.

Ok, but would you be so riled about it if they were seen to be promoting McCain?

MSNBC Contraversy:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSNBC)

Article goes on to say:


wikipedia's source: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=523508#)

Another article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/business/media/08msnbc.html?_r=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&oref=slogin)

I think this is a good start as far as sources.

Ok, so you're accusing them of political bias. Yet again, you won't find a single news outlet that doesn't have a political bias.

Fox Newsertainment regularly paints liberals as bad, and conservatives as good.

The teachers brainwashed them into supporting a particular political candidate. The teacher used Federal Money for starters, so right there it is illegal, but it's called abusing their position of power to brainwash kids into supporting a particular individual, now that is wrong.
Where is proof of this 'brainwashing'? In the video of the Obama youth, I don't see anyone coaching those kids to say things. The article by the Sun-Times says nothing about brainwashing. For all you know, these could have been some very politically aware children expressing their opinions. I'll not debate that the teacher shouldn't have used public money to further one political candidate, but to say that he brainwashed them is a stretch at best.

Where is proof of this 'brainwashing'? In the video of the Obama youth, I don't see anyone coaching those kids to say things. The article by the Sun-Times says nothing about brainwashing. For all you know, these could have been some very politically aware children expressing their opinions. I'll not debate that the teacher shouldn't have used public money to further one political candidate, but to say that he brainwashed them is a stretch at best.

Just using Federal Funding like this is grounds for fines and prison time.

Look a Teacher is a position of authority, would you want a teacher to teach your kid to be a muslim if you were a Catholic?


That's basically the same thing that's going on here, I don't care which side this youth group was for if it was a McCain youth group I'd be angry about it too.


Teachers are not supposed to indoctrinate students in a particular political ideaology.

Here's another incident:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/18/metro-prof-under-fire-anti-palin-assignment/)

Look a Teacher is a position of authority, would you want a teacher to teach your kid to be a muslim if you were a Catholic?
This example is stupid and irrelevant.

That's basically the same thing that's going on here, I don't care which side this youth group was for if it was a McCain youth group I'd be angry about it too.
No, it isn't the same thing. The students in that Obama youth video showed no signs of being coerced into what they were doing, and the articles that accompanied it did not state that the teacher was 'brainwashing' them to like Obama. As I said, for all you know, these could just be some very politically conscious youngsters.

Stop throwing around the word 'brainwash' as it does not apply here and only serves to show everyone how you're trying to spin this story to put Obama in a bad light.

Teachers are not supposed to indoctrinate students in a particular political ideaology.
The articles and the video never say he indoctrinated them. You are drawing your own fallacious conclusions.

Here's another incident:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/18/metro-prof-under-fire-anti-palin-assignment/)
Yeah, that teacher is actually deserving of heat for abusing his position as a teacher, if the story is to be believed.

This example is stupid and irrelevant.


It's perfectly relevant because it amounts to the same thing.



No, it isn't the same thing. The students in that Obama youth video showed no signs of being coerced into what they were doing, and the articles that accompanied it did not state that the teacher was 'brainwashing' them to like Obama. As I said, for all you know, these could just be some very politically conscious youngsters.


Rogue Nine, this took place in the classroom on school time. If the students were politically conscious fine, but the instructor is the one that made the video to kinda brag about and support Obama, so I highly doubt the interpretation you've given is accurate.


Stop throwing around the word 'brainwash' as it does not apply here and only serves to show everyone how you're trying to spin this story to put Obama in a bad light.


It does apply here, because that's what it is. As I said it was the teacher that made the video to support Obama.


Yeah, that teacher is actually deserving of heat for abusing his position as a teacher, if the story is to be believed.

Rocky Mountain News is one of several sources covering this and it is one of the local papers in the area. I know that for a fact because I've been to Colorado before.

It's perfectly relevant because it amounts to the same thing.

Not really. Firstly, why would a teacher be changing someone's religion? Teaching someone to follow a different Religion is very different to recommending, or preferring a political candidate over another.

Rogue Nine, this took place in the classroom on school time. If the students were politically conscious fine, but the instructor is the one that made the video to kinda brag about and support Obama, so I highly doubt the interpretation you've given is accurate.

Interpretations. And can you prove that the video was made to brag and support Obama?

It's perfectly relevant because it amounts to the same thing.
Not really. There is no evidence that the teacher was teaching them anything about Obama they didn't already know or believe.

Rogue Nine, this took place in the classroom on school time.
Where does it say that?

If the students were politically conscious fine, but the instructor is the one that made the video to kinda brag about and support Obama, so I highly doubt the interpretation you've given is accurate.
Well, it's obvious he did it to support Obama. You're accusing him of indoctrinating these kids to support Obama and there's no evidence of this.

It does apply here, because that's what it is. As I said it was the teacher that made the video to support Obama.
Again, it only applies if he actually forced them to learn about Obama. There is no evidence to show that he did and the kids do not look coached or under duress. Show me where it says he explicitly 'brainwashed' them.

Rocky Mountain News is one of several sources covering this and it is one of the local papers in the area. I know that for a fact because I've been to Colorado before.
I've been to Singapore before, that doesn't make me an expert on their newspaper circulars. :p

As a parent, I have to ask
a. did the teacher have parental permission for this activity to be posted on the internet
b. did the teacher have school permission for this to be posted on the internet.

Obama or McCain issues are dwarfed by these 2 issues above.

As a parent, I have to ask
a. did the teacher have parental permission for this activity to be posted on the internet
b. did the teacher have school permission for this to be posted on the internet.

Obama or McCain issues are dwarfed by these 2 issues above.

The answer to both questions is apparently "no" because the school had to suspend the teacher in question and is apparently considering legal action as well.

Hey, can I ask you guys, how is school in USA, their building, teaching methods, their teachers, and their students, because I don't live in America, and I want to know more about schools in USA.

Hey, can I ask you guys, how is school in USA, their building, teaching methods, their teachers, and their students, because I don't live in America, and I want to know more about schools in USA.

Depends where in the country you are, some schools are good some are bad.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/02/virginia-teachers-union-sparks-outrage-obama-blue-day/)

Looks like a new case in Virginia.

And here is another situation:
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/nationalbreaking/ci_10607989)

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10022008/news/regionalnews/teachers_get_hit_on_the_button_131776.htm)

Hmm.. can you make a comparison about schools in USA based on the country, because I really want to know the difference between schools in USA and in my nation.

Garfield, those links didn't even answer his question. They're all just about how Obama is the Antichrist. :rolleyes:

Hmm.. can you make a comparison about schools in USA based on the country, because I really want to know the difference between schools in USA and in my nation.

Well, if you're really from Jakarta, I'd have to bet that the general knowledge of your education system in this forum is lacking. In short, you probably know best, so if you want a comparason, tell us about how your system works, though it might be best to start a new thread for that.

Garfield, those links didn't even answer his question. They're all just about how Obama is the Antichrist. :rolleyes:

Ultimate Vader was off topic, so I decided to give him a small answer and move on, and I didn't notice anything that called Obama that.

Quite frankly, I'm actually questioning the integrity of some teachers and teachers unions.

Quite frankly, I'm actually questioning the integrity of some teachers and teachers unions.Oh, so it's always the teacher's fault?

Oh, so it's always the teacher's fault?

It is when they're using Government Money to support a particular political candidate.

It is when they are using their classroom to support a particular political candidate.

None of which has been adequately proved, beyond a few right-wing websites.

None of which has been adequately proved, beyond a few right-wing websites.

So you're also calling a local newspaper a right-wing website?


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/sep/18/metro-prof-under-fire-anti-palin-assignment/)

That source is not biased, but it also doesn't conclusively prove your point, either. In a lot of people's minds that's a perfectly fine essay topic, since there has been a lot of build-up surrounding Sarah Palin. I wouldn't mind if I was assigned an essay asking me to give a critical analysis of Barack Obama, either, since he's had a lot of the same.

And any student who says 'holy cow' in an interview is probably not the brightest crayon in the box, so I'm skeptical of her story. :xp:

That source is not biased, but it also doesn't conclusively prove your point, either. In a lot of people's minds that's a perfectly fine essay topic, since there has been a lot of build-up surrounding Sarah Palin. I wouldn't mind if I was assigned an essay asking me to give a critical analysis of Barack Obama, either, since he's had a lot of the same.

And any student who says 'holy cow' in an interview is probably not the brightest crayon in the box, so I'm skeptical of her story. :xp:

Actually it isn't a legitimate topic if it is one sided and taking sides in a political campaign under federal law as I've stated before, it would be illegal.

So you're also calling a local newspaper a right-wing website?

Are you saying a local newpaper can not be right-wing or left-wing? If they had a website, would that be bias too? I don't know about that paper, but my local paper and their website are extremely right-wing and the town 45 mins to the south has a extremely left-wing paper.

I see no use of the word 'bashing' in the article, and I also see the opinion of one single student out of a whole class saying the teacher was harassing Republican students. Certainly if he was they could have found a second student willing to corroborate that.