Heya!
I have just re-watched Return of the Jedi, paying specific attention to the scene with the Ewoks. And in fact, I think it's quit believable! :)
To start, you don't see any stormtrooper get KILLED by those falling rocks or arrows. The good and PROVEN tactics with the rope spanned across two trees (same happened in Tomorrow Never Dies, a Jams Bond movie, which makes it a 'modern' tactic) did kill some speeder bikes troopers.
Other (logical) tactics did so as well. The logs rolling of the hill, destroying an AT-ST? We saw in TESB that the legs of these walkers is their weak point. It makes sense.
Then the spreading of Forces. Han Solo and Leia are left alone at the bunker? I think not. An aimed shot disables R2-D2, slowing their proces. When Leia and Han seem to get in, another shot wounds Leia. So the Stormtrooperd WERE paying attention. Plus,there are still 3-4 groups of Elite Soldier inside, since the Imperial commander orders them out at the end. So the 2 or 3 Rebels outside aren't a real threat to the base itself. That's why they go after the Ewoks.
To conclude, the only reason they actually win this...is Chewbacca! He takes an AT-ST. And THAT AT-ST is the ONLY 'good guy' seen killing Stormtroopers, in fact killing a whole lot of them. This makes sens as well, since the Elite stormtrooper group there wouldn't be armed against tank and vehicles alike.
So...any thoughts? Or Ewok bashing? :xp:
Elite Stormtroopers:rofl:
Sorry, someone would've said it eventually. :p
In any case, as far as the film goes ESB had a lot of very dark content so I think they were trying to lighten things up in RotJ... at least 'til the whole Death Star scene. And how better to lighten things up than sending a batallion of teddy bears to strangle some stormtroopers?
Ewok bashing!!!111oneoneone
Seriously, the Rebels would never ever have ... hundreds of Star Destroyers ... superior tanks ... Palpatine is the most powerful Force user ever and planned everything anywhere ... yaddayadda
OK, on a more serious note, while I am glad that finally someone is actually taking a position supporting the Rebel victory, I generally believe that one shouldn't over-analyze the movies ... they're half fairy tales! How can you not expect the bad guys to be seemingly overpowering while the good guys still manage to pull of a victory despite the odds?
the ewoks pwnd the stormers!!!!!
GO REBELS!!!!
The Ewoks had the advantage of knowing the land, surprise and numbers. The stormtroopers made a good push but they got PWND by the teddy bearz. I bet the Ewoks were talking smack to the captured Imperials.
ya, they most probably were....
who remembers the little ewok that died? it was soo sad, his little ewok friend was all like: cmon!!hey, cmon!!!what?are you okay? *sigh*
it was sad....
notice: that was not a literal ewok-->english translation...:D
"Right, men! We've been trained with blaster rifles, mobile artillery, speeder bikes with laser cannons and are wearing state-of-the-art armour! Nothing can stand against us! Wait, what's that...?! Oh NO!! Teddy bear creatures! With sticks and slingshots! Run awayyyyy!!"
Ewoks suck.
I'm not over analyzing, I just try to give the general opinion a spin :)
And, again, you don't see any Stormtrooper get killed until Chewbacca claims the AT-ST. Until that moment, like littleman said, Ewoks die....
I just try to place myself into George's mind...how he rationally tries to explain how those little furballs won. And I think I found at least some proof (first post). :)
But still...how would you guys have fixed this? Into a believable ending? I heared somehwere Han Solo was to die at the end of the movie...maybe that offers some 'epic sacrifice' option?
^whoa....thinking too hard there for a sec.....hmm, okay my head stopped hurting...
so han solo was supposed do die? why didn't he?
I believe Harrison Ford wanted Solo to die, but Lucas wouldn't allow it...
True, when they were shooting they were discussing some big event they could add, Harrison suggested killing Han off, as he has no family or back story, but Lucas realized he was a fan favorite, and instead had him hook up with Leia and become the lovable rogue.
So...how could a sacrifice by Han have made the story more believable?
Let's brainstorm for a bit. Obviously, most people aren't satisfied with the Ewok thing.... :)
Although I find it believable in it's current state, a suicide run with a Starship or something seems something Epic enough for Han to die in :)
True, when they were shooting they were discussing some big event they could add, Harrison suggested killing Han off, as he has no family or back story, but Lucas realized he was a fan favorite, and instead had him hook up with Leia and become the lovable rogue.
See, GL did do something right! :)
As for the ewoks. I don't mind it as much, seeing that they work mostly as a destraction to the stormies. Technically the ewoks only score a few kills by dislodging ATSTs and bikes, tactics the ewoks probably use to discourage bigger creatures.
Yes their rock dropping are enough to cause quite some problem with the strormies, but most won't directly kill them other than giving them some consussion. Granted, some rebels would caught wind of what is happening there and throw in a nade or two.
First of all, I agree that the ewoks conquering is not all that unbelievable. But I had an interesting question. What was the initial response to the Ewoks when Jedi was first released? Were people walking out of the theater pissed? Or was the Ewok debate something that set in with time?
Well, someone go dig out those forum posts in the google archive!! Oh wait....
My guess would be that ewoks are much better accepted than a JarJar.
I was too young to remember the response to Ewoks back then, although I've heard stories about how much they were hated by the hardcore SW fans. I agree though that it can't be as bad as Jar-Jar. I think the Ewoks became further disliked with the follow-on releases of Caravan of Courage and The Battle of Endor.
As the whole concept of the Ewoks is ridiculous, I'm with Ztalker, it's quite possible to achieve victory on that conditions. As JoeDoe also pointed out, they had terrain knoledge, armed traps and, plus, the stormies never saw them coming nor they did knew how many furballs were there or if the alliance taught them to handle blasters.
Most likely they confused the ewoks for wookies. Then again...
^ That can be it, everybody knows that wookies are huge 2 meter tall tedd. erm.. beings.
The stormies were not prepared for a counter attack and got overconfident when the Ewoks arrived as backup for the Rebels.
I think this is what was going on inside those white helmets:
Stormie 1: Hey look, Teddy Bears!
Stormie 2:Cuteeeeeeeee! <3
Stormie 3: Is this supposed to be some kind of ambush? They are just rudimentary life forms; destroy them!!
[Battle takes place, the firsts to die are Stormie 1 & 2, the Ewoks win!]
Stormie 5: Rudimentary life forms my @$$...
Stormie 3: Oh shut up
baby Ewok : PWND!!!!
The Ewoks had the advantage of knowing the land, surprise and numbers. The stormtroopers made a good push but they got PWND by the teddy bearz. I bet the Ewoks were talking smack to the captured Imperials.
QFE. That knowledge gave the Ewoks a great edge.
I personally don't like Ewoks that much. There are just to small, and furry and remind me of my dog...
Perhaps the force was with them?
If I remember right ewoks ar considered to be primitive creatures that poses little threat, as compared to other big dangerous predators of the areas.
Obviously they overlooked the fact that the simple fact that ewoks prospers on endor means that ewoks have effective ways of warding off big dangerous predators.
Then again, maybe the ewoks use suicide bomber tactics towards the imps off camera... we know Tyber Zann(E@W) convinced ewoks to do that for him.
^
True, but we don't actually see what is going on off camera, so we can only take educated guesses on what actually happened.
Although, if you think about it, it DOES give the battle of Endor that 'epic self-sacrifice' tone it was orginally intended to have (with Han). Ewok suiicide bombers...never heared of them, but it sounds believable as a reason for them beating the Stormies. :)
I agree with ZTalker (and others) that it is at least plausible, given that they didn't actually kill any of the storm troopers with the rocks and other rudimentary weapons (with the exception of the storm troopers on speeders).
I also think the element of surprise and extreme advantage in numbers had a pretty substantial effect on the outcome, and in making in plausible/believable.
Simon, Yes. :)
I agree with ZTalker (and others) that it is at least plausible, given that they didn't actually kill any of the storm troopers with the rocks and other rudimentary weapons (with the exception of the storm troopers on speeders).
I also think the element of surprise and extreme advantage in numbers had a pretty substantial effect on the outcome, and in making in plausible/believable.
There are also the destroyed AT-STs which are piloted by stormies and what not.
Which were destroyed by ancient and still efficient war techniques like rolling logs in front of them, or baltsic pressure by a ram.
What the 'advanced Rebellion' did on Hoth is not that difference. You spot a weakness, and use it against the enemy. :)
In this case: Logs + flimsy unstable legs = autch
agreed... the thing I don't understand is why the stormtroopers didn't really go after Han and Leia because they were the ones who did them the most trouble in the end, I think... I don't remember
Which were destroyed by ancient and still efficient war techniques like rolling logs in front of them, or baltsic pressure by a ram.
What the 'advanced Rebellion' did on Hoth is not that difference. You spot a weakness, and use it against the enemy. :)
In this case: Logs + flimsy unstable legs = autch
Agreed - it wasn't all that different than what was done on Hoth. The only unbelievable part is that those monstrous machines would have such flimsy, unstable legs.
Yeah, I was wondering about that too...it hardly has any value.
Ah well...Palpatine must have been saving up for those Death Stars.
"Tire tracks? Hover Tanks? No man, legs, LEGS!" *zap lightning*
Well, ATST is designed to be a scout transport and lighter combat mecha, with a reasonable cost and still maintain its effectiveness. Plus, I don't think the empire have gigantic rolling trees in mind when they do the stress testing.
What amazes me is that any similar tactic should have been known by the empire, having faught against things like wookies and other tree hugging species. Though, I doubt even the imps would like to stay at the darklands under the wookiee trees for any long period.
Though, I doubt even the imps would like to stay at the darklands under the wookiee trees for any long period.
Maybe that's why the CIS fought the wookies on that beach....
Maybe, now that you mentioned it, though the beach is not really part of the Darklands.
CIS would have the advantage down in the shadowly undergrowth though, as most creatures do not consider inorganics like droids their yummy diet (by all means they can still tear those stuff apart for fun)
Why not just carpet bomb the trees or something? It would certainly be more fun than pursuing enemies inside the forest when there's no strategic reason for doing so.
Maybe, now that you mentioned it, though the beach is not really part of the Darklands.
I didn't say it was. They wouldn't want to fight in the darklands (maybe), so they fought on the beach instead.
Hmz...
Maybe they chose the beachhead because it's one of the few open spaces on Kashyyy and to eliminate the possibility of guerilla tactics on the Wookiee's part. I mean, it's easier to ambush an army in the shadows, where you know the terrain, then on a beach where you are in plain sight. Also, maybe the CIS was taking the order 'form a beachhead' a bit to seriously :xp:
Anyways, I think the point is clear here. Every Star Wars battle has logic behind it :)
Ewoks are really cute and smart to come up with all the plans they did....
So what if they didn't kill stormtroopers? :xp:
Ewoks are really cute and smart to come up with all the plans they did....
QFT. They managed to take down imperial tanks with a few logs. Those were the elite stormtroopers...:lol: Pfft how elite can they be losing to ewoks armed with twigs. Lesson for the day: don't mess with the almighty ewoks! :xp:
True we don't see any troopers being killed by the falling rocks and such but once they are knocked down, the ewoks could easily stab the in the armor's weak spots or grab dropped blasters. I know the ewoks don't use them, but they have seen enough stormtroopers to know how to use them. Maybe not the best aim, but at close range... its possible.
I think the victory was plausible, given that there were far more ewoks than troopers and any troopers in tanks and spedders were taken out. Chewietaking over that tank probably had a fair amount to do with victory as well. The ewoks knew the land and had the element of surprise so yeah its possible.
~HOP
Besides, I'm not sure what indication people get that the ewoks won the battle, just because we see some stormtroopers get knocked down. I find it strange how so many people blow the scenes of individual troops being taken by surprise out of proportion, but ignore the parts which show groups of ewoks fleeing from retaliatory attacks (AT-STs in particular). Besides, if the majority of the ewoks hadn't been driven off, then how would Han Solo have been able to convince the Imperial officers inside the bunker that the battle was over?
It is quite possible the troopers did lose. Especially if they just ran out and got lost in the woods while the Ewoks picked them off one by one. But I agree, the tied didn't really turn until Chewie stole the AT-ST
Well, it's obvious that the Imperial troops did lose eventually, but the most the ewoks did was serve as a major distraction and surprise attack force, rather than inflicting the bulk of the casualties.
mobile fluffy meatshields...
Although, if you think about it, it DOES give the battle of Endor that 'epic self-sacrifice' tone it was orginally intended to have (with Han). Ewok suiicide bombers...never heared of them, but it sounds believable as a reason for them beating the Stormies. :)
Ignor him, Ztakler... Those Ewoks wer enslaved, and had technological actual bombs strapped to them.
e
Huge Ewok home turf bonus+time they spent preparing (all those traps)+Chewie stealing enemy vehicle(and being the only good driver)+Han Solo+Luke(as Vader said, even the ability to destroy a planet is nothing when placed next to the role of the Force. For Force's sake, the Prophecy was almost fufilled here! And Luke is the son of the Chosen One, and Vader wasn't there unless he was offscreen like the Ewok Bombers)+A rebel strike force armed with guns most people seem to ignore= MAJOR PWNAGE GO WICKETT! And shame, all you GL haters! Really now!
Well, it's obvious that the Imperial troops did lose eventually, but the most the ewoks did was serve as a major distraction and surprise attack force, rather than inflicting the bulk of the casualties.
Rather like the Gungans in Episode I...
The Ewok concept was totally stupid, IMO. Maybe a meter taller would have been acceptable, but noo...
Ewoks suck.
Amen.
That seems like pretty baseless hatred, there.
I realize some of you think Star Wars shouldn't have been so 'cute' but, well, suck it up, because this is what Star Wars IS, and you are fans if you're on this forum. George Lucas wasn't trying to follow canon, or, for that matter, hardcore fan expectations, he was SHAPING them.
I hate Ewoks, but being A Star Wars fan I love them at the same time like I love the Gungans. But I still don't understnad why didn't the Empire own the Ewoks completely, where were the AT-AT's? Or the Tie Bombers/Fighters, sure there are trees but its not Kashyykk! They can still fly around and bomb the villages!!!
The thing is, that ewok battle is the summation and climax of the entire saga... and the fact that the ewoks won is the point of the entire theme of the saga: That technology has all the obvious advantages, but when it comes right down to it, the drive, determination, and spirit of living, breathing people will overcome those cold advantages.
That was one of the original concepts (except the ewoks were wookiees) when Star Wars was still on the drawing board. I know they technically aren't human, but the theme is about the power of the "human spirit."
Now, from a more technical standpoint, the ewok victory completely fits. Typically, people fighting for their homes and for their very freedom will have a spirit that is unmatched by any technilogical power... Although, to be fair, I probably wouldn't feel too comfortable saying that to someone from Alderaan. :)