I also had the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the Republic could have put together an army long before the Clone wars had started if the Senate had not been bogged down in debate.
I.e. they were trying to decide if the Trade federation was really a threat, and if so if it could be dealt with diplomatically, but few of them ever got around to thinking of getting any kind of military force together to deal with it. I got the idea that it was sort of like Europe sitting on its hands in the late 30's/early 40's trying appeasement rather than building an army while Hitler amassed a large and well trained force in plain sight.

Their biggest problem was more likely the situation when the Federal Government wanted to have a standing army in the late 1780s. An army can always be used against it's own people. If you figure each planet has it's own navy and army, then the Republic wanted to turn all of those troops over to a leader appointed by the Chancellor or his war council. It's like trying to start an alliance with the war barreling down on you.

As for the WWII Analogy, did you notice that Palpatine used exactly the same ploy as Hitler did, the need for 'emergency powers' for an emergency that won't end.

^
Oh yeah, noticed that Lucas used that. And why not? If it was successful for Hitler, it would work (and did work) in the movie. I wonder how much of his association with Spielberg influences that.

@stingerhs--I'm only opining, since this isn't based on anything I've seen in the books/movies (except for the saber-building).
It seems to me that building your own lightsaber is part of the trials or at least part of becoming a full-fledged Jedi (Vader's comments in RoTJ about Luke building his as well as KOTOR). Your list works for me. I imagine that the trials would have to be individualized to some degree because everyone's strengths are different, but I also think there's some minimum bar of skill in all the areas you list that one would have to reach in order to pass. That bar might also float depending on that Jedi's 'specialty'--a lightsaber specialist might have to show more lightsaber skill to pass the trials than someone who specializes in diplomacy or strategy/tactics, but that's just guessing.

Jae, for something I'm working on that won't be put here:

Would someone who claims to see fairies and refuses to accept that they are fictional be defined as fixated or delusional by the shrink?

Jae, for something I'm working on that won't be put here:

Would someone who claims to see fairies and refuses to accept that they are fictional be defined as fixated or delusional by the shrink?

Actually, if you want to be anally precise, it's neither--he's (or she's) having a visual hallucination. A hallucination is a distortion in sensory perception (usually auditory--'hearing voices'), while a delusion is a distortion in reasoning. A fixation means someone is stuck in a pattern of thought or activity, like having to wash their hands 18 times in a row or turning a lightswitch on and off 3 times in a row before leaving it on. He might be fixated (or stuck) on the idea that he can see fairies, but the actual seeing of fairies themselves is a visual hallucination. Thinking that everyone is watching him would be a delusion.
If I could only choose between fixated or delusional, however, delusional is closer than fixated.

The shrink would probably diagnose him as having some type of schizophrenia (paranoid, undifferentiated, etc, depending on any other symptoms).
www.schizophrenia.com) has some great info.

Thanks. I'm working on a story with the idea that Fairies are an actual offshoot of humanity that went down in size rather than larger, and have a native form of magic so only a very small percentage would be able to actually preceive as what they really are. The rest of us would only see some kid of 'bug' we can't identify.

@ stingerhs, Jae Onasi: Actually, the Jedi Trials consisted of trials of skill(i.e: fighting dark side apparitions), flesh(i.e: overcoming physical pain and loss), courage(i.e: completing missions with very low chances of success), and spirit(i.e: Luke not turning to the dark side on the Death Star 2).

Well, I asked my hubby today, who is in the Army reserve, "Honey, about how long do you think it would take to write a debriefing on a ship explosion?"
His reply: "I don't know dear, I've never experienced a ship explosion."
We'd been travelling in a car for about 8 hours to get to family by the time I'd asked that and I was/am seriously overtired. When he gave the perfectly deadpan answer, I about fell out of my seat laughing.
So much for his expertise. :D

Define the parameters. Are you talking about the debrieifing of one survivor or witness? The actual report that will go to the Court of Inquiry? or the final ruling by that court?
As an example the witness reports of the destruction of USS Maine were filed in the first 30 days after the explosion, but the report delivered to the court took almost 8 months, and the court itself didn't file it's report for over two years.

I was thinking "what happened in the 9 minutes you were infiltrating the enemy ship before you found the explosive device and got the h*ll out of there." It was a very short mission. :)

I was thinking "what happened in the 9 minutes you were infiltrating the enemy ship before you found the explosive device and got the h*ll out of there." It was a very short mission. :)


All right, we're having a terminology problem. It is what is called an after action report. The standard is to have an intelligence officer walk you thorugh what you did, someone else doing the same for every member of your party. They question you until they are satisfied. All these reports are then collated, and assembled into a coherent mass.

In the book Once a Hero, Elizabeth Moon went through it quite extensively. When the person had said something specific, and it couldn't be verified, they went over it again. Such as 'if you were on the bridge resetting the codeword for missile access at this time, how could you be here on your ship five minutes later, when it is impossible to walk that distance in time'.

This process take a hell of a long time. As I mentioned above, the Maine Incident report did not come out until after the Spanish American War. Even then, the answer they came up with (Spanish Attack) was incorrect as recent findings have shown.

As an even worse example, in a book lambasting the government for lying to it's people, Admiral Theobold commented that there were six investigations into what happened at Pearl Harbor, none of which adequately covered the facts, and what was known in 1953 when he wrote it. According to all of those inquiries, it was still Kimmel and Short's fault.

I learn something new every day. :)
It's not important to the storyline itself, I just like to have the little details accurate, too. Thanks!

In my last critical review, I commented about someone using a rather odd version of torture. I think, while most of us might be appalled, I am going to cover that today.

The first thing to remember is that torture only works in one specific situation. That is when you want information that is both time sensitive, and can be answered by a single yes or no question. It is brutal, extemely painful, and otherwise usless. There are much better interogation techniques including sensory deprivation and drugs that work a lot faster and without a lot of the pain. They may not be as fast, but they work.

Unfortunately,there are always those that want to hurt someone else. They are the bulk of torturers. But they are by no means the worst of the lot. These are the kind that beat up on you because they can, nothing more. When it comes time for them to torment someone, they need direction to assure that they don't have a bit too much fun and murder the victim.

The worst however are the sociopaths who tend to run such operations. To a sociopath no one beyond himself is really important, so inflicting pain does not give him a thrill, or disgust. He is just doing what he wants to do. When someone is being tortured systematically, it is usually a sociopath who is directing it.

The character in the story I mentioned reminded me more of a spoiled brat. Sort of like Darth Vader saying, 'yeah, I'm mean, and if I want to hurt you I will'. His torture was neither organized nor systematic. He was demanding answers, but at the same time you knew he would have continued even if they had told him everything. This is a common flaw with people that write about such things without researching it. When Lucas had Princess Leia tortured in A New Hope, it was obvious even if we didn't see it. In The Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo mentioned it in that 'they don't seem to want answers' meaning he could see what was wrong with their methods.

If you are going to use a torture scene, read up on the subject. The one thing you will discover is that a lot of things you might define as torture is not because prisoner interrogation is not the same as the American Legal system where they can't even question you if you demand a lawyer.

Don't go in for the hot iron and bamboo shoots if you villain had other options. I figure if I had 25,000 years of historical experience behind me, I wouldn't use something so mundane.

As an example, read the KOTOR excerpt scene where Saul is torturing the members of the Ebon Hawk crew.

To add on, often I have noticed that mental and emotional torture is far more effective than physical torture. Sometimes all three achieve the same objective though I have not had the unpleasant experience of that. Ohysical intimidation is an effective tool as well. You can show it and if you have enough bark behind it, it can scare a person who is rather weak willed.
As to researching on torture, read up on kiddnappings especially of Americans being kidnapped by the guerilla groups in Columbia and other South American countries. Fictional novels set in south America make references to military regimes and such and the force used to maintain order. One such novel is The House of the Spirits by Isabel Allende who lived in Chile during the time of Pinoche.
History provides some good examples of military regimes and often some interesting insights as to how they kept law and order, in their words. Sometimes torture is mentioned as well. One could be such as in El Salvador during the time of the war in the 80's I think. They would torture and kill their intellectuals in gruesome ways like with jumper cables, beatings and rape. Just some thoughts and add ins since I have read first hand accounts of kidnappings and torture. Just remember that methods differ between different groups and regions.

History provides some good examples of military regimes and often some interesting insights as to how they kept law and order, in their words. Sometimes torture is mentioned as well. One could be such as in El Salvador during the time of the war in the 80's I think. They would torture and kill their intellectuals in gruesome ways like with jumper cables, beatings and rape. Just some thoughts and add ins since I have read first hand accounts of kidnappings and torture. Just remember that methods differ between different groups and regions.

The worst part of torture by a government of it's own is, now get this because it is true;

Not illegal.

When the original UN rules about both Genocide and Torture were accepted, the term Genocide was defined as mass slaughter for 'religious or military reasons'. Meaning the Russians weren't in violation running the Gulags. When it came to torture, it was defined as 'extension beyond present days laws' If your laws allows torture, in other words, you are not in violation of International law.

And the funny thing is we condemn what some of our soldiers did to POWs in Iraq and are outraged by what the insurgents do in return. Heck I mentioned the rules of warfare to the males of my family and all I got was, "In war there are no rules." Funny eh?

The insurgents were doing some really nasty things long before we did anything at Abu Ghraib. They choose to use Abu Ghraib and other events as excuses to continue their attacks. At least we _try_ to follow the Geneva convention. It's never going to be perfect, because when you're guarding the guy who just killed a bunch of friends in your unit, it's tough controlling your emotions enough to not wring the guy's neck.

There is one rule in war: Kill them before they kill us.

The insurgents were doing some really nasty things long before we did anything at Abu Ghraib. They choose to use Abu Ghraib and other events as excuses to continue their attacks. At least we _try_ to follow the Geneva convention. It's never going to be perfect, because when you're guarding the guy who just killed a bunch of friends in your unit, it's tough controlling your emotions enough to not wring the guy's neck.

There is one rule in war: Kill them before they kill us.

One of the things I have been working on it an historical overview of war crimes and war crimes trials. What I have found out is that we have yet to have a war crimes trial that has not been driven by political motivation. I can leave out Saddam and Milosovich in this regard because A: Milosovich was being tried by an international tribunal, and B: Saddams trial is based on incidents within his own country which by definition are not War Crimes.

What interested me more was the fact that in WWI the British violated international law, then whined because the Germans took the only option available in that situation.

As for your family JM12, that is almost a quote from Winston Chruchill, the man that ordered that original violation. 'In a war of survival there are no rules'.

Mach (or anyone into Navy)--got any mutiny tips for me? My enterprising Sith Lord has managed to corrupt some captains and they're coming in their ships with the rest of a Republic force, only to turn on them when they arrive on site.

Mach (or anyone into Navy)--got any mutiny tips for me? My enterprising Sith Lord has managed to corrupt some captains and they're coming in their ships with the rest of a Republic force, only to turn on them when they arrive on site.
My following suggestion comes from my adventures with the West End Games D6 Star Wars RPG;

I had an Imperial Remnant fleet persuing me one time of an Executor class Star Dreadnought, and twelve Imperator class Star Destroyers, I just had my one Battlestar at the time (yes a ship like the Galactica)... the rest of our group were each off on their own doing the Scooby Doo thing. Luckily for me I was ready.

RedHawke used Control Minds in conjunction with a few others, namely a little preparation with Rage and Concentrate, spent a Force Point and 'corrupted' the crew of the whole fleet... had to kill the Dark Jedi/Sith Wannabe on the Dreadnought, and his apprentice, but his normal minions weren't helping him any. As they now saw things my way. :dev6:

I made off with all those ships... the Star Dreadnought (Super Star Destroyer) was called the Harbinger and I definately transferred my 'flag' to that ship after that event, 17.6 kilometers of sheer terror, yup it was quite a game. The GM wanted my hide afterward as I took out his main villan in a quick duel and easily aquired all his ships. ;)

Anyway, for what it is worth... I hope it helps. :D

That is just Evil. Sounds just like something Jolee would do. :D
Reminds me of a time when a friend of mine played an Oriental D&D campaign. This monk character leveled up and had to take a taboo, and so the player decided the monk wouldn't wear anything in the color 'a mauvey shade of pinky russet.' Well, weeks later, he'd pretty much forgotten about that, and thought everyone else had, too. Until the DM had them kill something and get treasure. In the pile of loot there was a magic obi the guy really wanted. The DM looked at him with a wicked grin and said, "It's a mauvey shade of pinky russet."

Mach (or anyone into Navy)--got any mutiny tips for me? My enterprising Sith Lord has managed to corrupt some captains and they're coming in their ships with the rest of a Republic force, only to turn on them when they arrive on site.

First thing to remember is that you need more than a captain. On a ship the size of say a Star Destroyer, you would need a minimum of ten officers and senior ratings who are in on it.

These people would have to be in positions of authority sufficient to pull it off in the necessary departments (Scan, command, engineering, weapons, Marines if any) and capable of giving the orders and expecting them to be obeyed.

To get them to fight their own fleet you will need a rationale. Unlike the scene in Revenge of the Sith you don't have men programmed to immediately obey. So come up with a reason for an enemy to be in charge of those other ships, and use it. A good way is faked signals suggesting that the Admiral in charge of the fleet is himself in mutiny, and you are trying to restrain him.

If you read that section of Republic Dawn, you will notice that the mutineers claimed that the Jedi were attacking. It was only officers outside the conspiracy unwilling to accept the situation and orders that saved that situation.

Once the fighting starts, it is unlikely that there will be a counter mutiny, because you would need to communicate to the crew that they are attacking their own ships, and organize a resistance aboard. An excellent series of books giving you that situation are Winning Colors and Once a Hero by Elizabeth Moon. Moon herself was a serving officer in the Marines if I remember correctly.

Thanks. I was thinking a few small ships actually--nothing huge like a Star Destroyer where I'd have to have a ton of people involved. My Sith Lord was planning on taking over the Navy at some point (in much the same manner that Palpatine moved up the Senate ranks to take over the Republic), so he's started to arrange to have allies placed in higher ranks. I may have created a continuity error already and I haven't even begun my next chapter. :) Ah well, that's what the edit button's for.
Yes, I did read that part in Republic Dawn (actually, the whole piece) and enjoyed it very much. :) I found the whole sequence of events fascinating to follow.

The numbers would not change much regardless of size of the ship.

If anyone has any good resources on sword fighting I would appreciate it if they would share. I'm attempting to script the final battle of my story and it is not going very well at this point. I attempted to locate some web sources on fencing but haven't been very successful.

If anyone has any good resources on sword fighting I would appreciate it if they would share. I'm attempting to script the final battle of my story and it is not going very well at this point. I attempted to locate some web sources on fencing but haven't been very successful.

The best sources would be a book on Kendo, since the jedi style is closer to it than anything else. If you send specific scenes, perhaps I or we can help more.

If anyone has any good resources on sword fighting I would appreciate it if they would share. I'm attempting to script the final battle of my story and it is not going very well at this point. I attempted to locate some web sources on fencing but haven't been very successful.
I do not know of any published manuals on what you want, but fencing is not it. Fencing is all working with the point. Lightsaber dueling is more like medieval sword fighting, in which you use the edge. I have some experience with that activity. If you would like me to look over your stuff, I would be happy to help.

For others' reference, I will explain some of the mechanics of sword fighting. First, the most important thing in any martial art is balance. If your stance is off, it does not matter how well you handle a sword. Most people teach to keep your feet about shoulder width apart, one foot about shoulder width in front of the other. Bend your knees slightly, but keep your back straight. Keep your opponent in front of you always. If he moves, turn to face him. Never cross your feet when you are moving; it puts you off balance.

With regard to your saber, you must remember that your saber is both your offense and your defense. Therefore, you must keep it in front of you at all times. None of the huge arcing swings like you see in the movies. If you hold it with both hands and swing it like a baseball bat, you are leaving your body entirely open to attack.

IMO the best way to handle a lightsaber is to hold it like a bastard sword. Place both hands on the hilt, about 6 inches (15 cm) apart. Hold the saber at about waist height, pointing up, and tilted slightly toward your opponent. Holding your blade upright will block most body and head shots. To block your legs, simply drop your hands straight down.

To throw a shot, use the bottom hand to move the pommel and the top hand as a fulcrum. You can also snap the top hand forward as you pull the bottom hand toward you. You can vary the angles of attack, but never go for a target below your opponent's knees; it exposes your head. All your opponent needs to do is hop or sidestep and bring his saber down on your head. If you're thinking this looks like a static, slow method of sword fighting, you're wrong. Using the saber as a lever like this is incredibly fast because it only takes a minimum of movement of the pommel to make the tip move quite a bit. In my medieval combat group, bastard sword is the fastest system we use.

Keeping these principals in mind will keep the dueling realistic. I can usually suspend my disbelief in the movies, but it does bother me when I see the way people handle their lightsabers.

The numbers would not change much regardless of size of the ship.

Thanks! I think I got something figured out.... :)

I do not know of any published manuals on what you want, but fencing is not it. Fencing is all working with the point.

That is why I compared it to Kendo, which works primarily with the edge and power strokes rather that European methods. The problem with the bastard or Zwei-hand is that you have a 200 mm section of what is really the blade to use with a German style Zweihander or Scots Claymore. But a 42" Dai-Katana has no such safety zone.

That is why I compared it to Kendo, which works primarily with the edge and power strokes rather that European methods. The problem with the bastard or Zwei-hand is that you have a 200 mm section of what is really the blade to use with a German style Zweihander or Scots Claymore. But a 42" Dai-Katana has no such safety zone.
I'm not sure what kind of swords you are using, but my bastard sword is 48" (120 cm) long overall, with 12" (30 cm) of it being hilt.

I'm not sure what kind of swords you are using, but my bastard sword is 48" (120 cm) long overall, with 12" (30 cm) of it being hilt.

The Zweihander and Heavy Scots Claymore are only different by the design of the two smaller blads near the pommel.

A bastard sword was originally designed for someone used to a standard sword learning to fight with a longer sword. The bastard is excellent for such combat except that the originals had rounded rather than sharp points.

Mach, are you talking about the quillons? Or are you talking about a 2 small blades that come out near where the quillons, blades, and hilt meet?

The Zweihander and Heavy Scots Claymore are only different by the design of the two smaller blads near the pommel.

A bastard sword was originally designed for someone used to a standard sword learning to fight with a longer sword. The bastard is excellent for such combat except that the originals had rounded rather than sharp points.
Actually, the Zweihander, at about 72", was typically longer than the Claymore, which averaged 55". Some, but not all, had a couple of blades emerging diagonally from the junction of the blade and quillons or instead of quillons.

Obviously, the Zweihander does not compare to the lightsaber. While the Claymore is closer, it is still longer than a lightsaber. The term "bastard sword" as I am using it is simply a sword of about 42-60". It could also be called a "hand-and-a-half sword". It is more appropriate for lightsaber combat than a katana because it is double-edged, where a katana is single-edged.

Isn't a katana more deadly since they can be extremely sharp?

All the blades can be made extremely sharp.

The danger in the Middle ages (the time period where we think about sword fighting being relatively common) wasn't necessarily getting something lopped off with a sword during battle. The immediate danger was shock, because there was no ambulance crew to come pick you up and get you to the first aid station--if your buddy didn't pick you up, you laid on the field. Even if you did make it back to help, there were no IVs or blood transfusions or other medications to combat the shock. The danger a few days after battle was often infection from even a small cut, because there were no antibiotics until the 1930's (Egyptians eating moldy bread notwithstanding).

You can also do a lot of damage with a dull blade, but it takes more force. You only have to cut far enough in to hit a vital area--hit one of the major veins or arteries in the arms or legs, or hit just about anything in the chest/abdomen. You don't have to go all the way through someone with a sharp blade. An inch or 2 in the right spot is just as deadly as going all the way through something.

Mach, are you talking about the quillons? Or are you talking about a 2 small blades that come out near where the quillons, blades, and hilt meet?
The two smaller blades.

And it is spelled quillions and pronounced 'kwee-ons'

The term "bastard sword" as I am using it is simply a sword of about 42-60". It could also be called a "hand-and-a-half sword". It is more appropriate for lightsaber combat than a katana because it is double-edged, where a katana is single-edged.
Actually the term bastard came because it wasn't a long sword, and wasn't a two handed sword, so it was the 'bastard in between'.

All blades can be made sharp, true. However the Japanese steel was and still is a unique contstruct that held an edge very well, yet was resiliant enough to take steady blows without shattering.

European Steel in comparison was a poor second. Even Toledo, which was the best European steel or Damascus steel which was an Arab invention were no substitute.

Also, unlike the European designs, which ranged from the short sword up to the Zwei-hander, the Japanese worked with a blade designed to be used most efficiently with two hands, yet be light enough to use one handed. For other situations they designed not different swords, but entirely different weapons. The saber-staff as JA call Darth Mall's weapon is based on an other Japanese weapon, a twin bladed Naginata.

The rapid strike-block-strike of a lightsaber duel is closer to the Japanese style as well.

The two smaller blades.

And it is spelled quillions and pronounced 'kwee-ons'

Unless you're pronouncing it in the bastardized French version like we do, in which case it comes out kee-ons. :)

Yep, I spelled it wrong in my other post. I was on the committee running the church picnic all day yesterday, and it was 95 degrees out by us with 9000% humidity, and I was the one manning the hot beef station. Great food, great company, great fun, but I was exhausted when I was done, and I just forgot to spell check it.

Sure, Damascus may shatter more often (and both were far better than any European steel of that time), but it holds a very sharp edge very nicely. Since she asked about 'sharp' rather than 'blade quality/resiliency', I answered accordingly.

Kendo/Kumdo (I couldn't resist adding in the Korean version, since I take taekwondo :) ) works as a good alternate, but the shinai is a lot lighter than a real sword and it's a bit shorter. We have a shinai in our dojang so I've gotten the chance to handle that, along with various swords--I imagine mach has too. The shinai 'blade' moves much faster and you can almost whip it to strike since it's so light. My rapier moves much more slowly, though that could be as much from my lack of skill with it as anything else. I've only had about a year of experience with rapier. How that would transfer to lightsaber combat I don't know, since we really don't know how hefting a lightsaber feels. :)
Probably the best simulation for swordplay I've seen is the combat at events held by the Society for Creative Anachronism, because they're not choreographed. They don't use real swords, they use rattan, which was chosen because it a. doesn't kill people and is pretty safe for a martial art (they've been doing this for 40 years and no one's died from a combat injury) and b. simulates the weight of swords about as accurately as you can get with a non-deadly alternative.
The Kingdom of Acre also does this type of 'fighting' (and I _think_ their group was started by someone from the SCA), but I don't know if there are any active groups outside the NY/NJ region.
The Adrian Empire uses blunt metal swords and other weapons in their combat and have groups scattered throughout the US, but I know nothing more about them than what their website says.
There may well be other history re-enactment groups that also do combat like this, the SCA happens to be the one that I'm most familiar with.

Mach, any history reenactment groups (besides SCA--I know they have a bunch of branches in CA since it started in Berkeley) like this out by you? I'm only familiar with the midwest, and we don't have much outside of the SCA.

This may be way more about swordplay than anyone wanted. :)

and it was 95 degrees out by us with 9000% humidity, and I was the one manning the hot beef station. Great food, great company, great fun, but I was exhausted when I was done, and I just forgot to spell check it.

If you've been following the big fire in So Cal you should know I'm about 20 miles as the crow flies from there, and today is the first day it hasn't been 105+. Thanks to the weather patterns created we're reaching that 9000 humidity too.

Sure, Damascus may shatter more often (and both were far better than any European steel of that time), but it holds a very sharp edge very nicely. Since she asked about 'sharp' rather than 'blade quality/resiliency', I answered accordingly.

My answer was postulated on something that could be readily related to a lightsaber. There are very few forms for using two hands in European texts, and all assume the larger blades mentioned. You have to remember that the reason Damascus and Japanese steels were so sharp was neither group was heavilty into armor yet. The Arabs because of the sheer agony of wearing it in the desert, the Japanese because their training assumed rapid mobility. Up until the century right before the Meijii reformation they did get into it. Before that the armor was wicker made primarily to deflect rather than stop attacks.


Kendo/Kumdo (I couldn't resist adding in the Korean version, since I take taekwondo :) ) works as a good alternate, but the shinai is a lot lighter than a real sword and it's a bit shorter. We have a shinai in our dojang so I've gotten the chance to handle that, along with various swords--I imagine mach has too. The shinai 'blade' moves much faster and you can almost whip it to strike since it's so light. My rapier moves much more slowly, though that could be as much from my lack of skill with it as anything else. I've only had about a year of experience with rapier. How that would transfer to lightsaber combat I don't know, since we really don't know how hefting a lightsaber feels. :)

If you read the portion of my KOTOR novel that covers her learning the lightsaber, I mentioned something people forget. Energy, even a forcefield, weighs nothing. Part of the reason I saw for teaching children is that while they may have picked up sticks and waved them around like swords, they haven't gotten into the habit of whipping a mass of steel around. Steel that will not be there when they pick up a lightsaber. What you have when you're wielding a lightsaber is the pommel in your hand, and nothing else.


Mach, any history reenactment groups (besides SCA--I know they have a bunch of branches in CA since it started in Berkeley) like this out by you? I'm only familiar with the midwest, and we don't have much outside of the SCA.

This may be way more about swordplay than anyone wanted. :)

Take your pick. I spent 11 years at the Renaissance Faire and they had a military pageant/ reenactment every day. Friends there introduced me to a civil war reenactment group. As for SCA style I live between the different kingdoms. The nearest is in San Diego I think, and the next after that in Los Angeles.

Anyone know the name of Admiral Dodonna's ship, if there is a name for it?

I don't recall there ever being a name for it. The only names mentioned are in TSL which are the Harbinger and the Sojourn.

On another note, I recently returned from a four week excavation up in my local San Bernardino Mountains. We were looking at the precedents to the Serrano Indians and the historic archaeology of Splinter's Cabin. THe Serrano site CA SBR-485 is located at the T6 crossing and is home to vegetation such as jeffery pine, black and live oak, poodle bushes and pine. Our site was mostly that of a midden (trash) deposit. It was also a work area because of the presence of bedrock mortars and milling slicks. We found some manos and grindstones and FAR or Fire Affected Rock. That is rock that has been heated repeatedly over time. Our biggest find were an obsidian flake and an obsidian point which indicate the site to be about 800 years old. We found the base of a basalt biface and a chert or jasper point. Charcoal was numerous and we collected soil samples to look for seeds and the like. It was hard work becasue the terrance we were on had huge bedrocks beginning at 30-40cm below the datum, the point from which we measure.
Next time I'll post on the Serrano or answer any questions.

Weapons of Mass Destruction:

On the logic of creation and deployment of such weapons in historical context and logical extension into the Death Star and the Shadow Mass Generator.

As much as the liberal peaceniks seem to think any such weapon is evil, a weapon is only as evil as the one who uses it. To deploy such a weapon and use it in the field needs a certain mindset, and those who have done so are sometime painted as monsters, and at other times, as heroes.

Creation:

There are three reasons for the development of such a weapon, be it chemical, biological, or nuclear, and extending right up to the Death Stars and the Shadow Mass Generator. They are:

MILITARY NECESSITY: The enemy has something you do not have a counter for, therefore you develop this fiendish thingie as a counter. More weapons have been invented for this reason than any other.

Examples: When the Japanese invaded Korea in 1591, they brought a new weapon, the muzzle-loading flintlock. Their supplier, Portugal was willing to sell them handguns (The definition used at that time) but were unwilling to sell them cannon, or rent them a warship. Muskets were not powerful enough to seriously threaten a Portuguese merchantman, and the cannon aboard would have blown them to hell if they tried.

The Koreans had cannon, but they were a generation and a half behind the Portuguese with corresponding levels of efficiency. A musket-armed warship could approach and use their secret weapon to sweep the deck and allow them to board and capture it.

When faced with this, Admiral Yi Soon Shin deployed a counter to this threat the first recorded ironclad vessel the turtle ships. This allowed his fleet to hang in and fight, and protected them from Japanese muskets.

Another such development was the poison gases used in WWI. The Germans did not have the forces necessary to punch through the combined French and English forces in Europe. The gas was to destabilize the lines, and allow then to push through. The technology for such gas had existed since the American Civil War, but had not been used in any great amount before.

DESPERATION: At the start of WWII, there were seven nations capable of developing a nuclear weapon. England Germany, France Russia, Japan Italy and the United States. When the Germans swept through Western Europe, they removed one of these. The Russians had been too busy during the Stalinist purges to think about it. Most of the men capable of making one had either fled to England or the US, or were in the gulags. So the Russians were way behind. Germany and Italy saw no reason to make it, and when the Japanese beat us so handily in the first half of 1941, neither did they. After all, they were winning.
The US and England with the help of expatriates from Italy Germany and Russia immediately began research because the US was desperate. We didn’t know if we’d even survive let along beat our enemies. We needed something that would level an enemy city in one blow, and this was it. The research continued after Midway because we still weren’t sure. By the time the weapons were ready for construction, we were winning on all fronts handily We kept it up because the US had already spent a couple of billion dollars on making the damn thing. It was easier to point at a completed weapon than admitting that the money had been wasted.

However deploying it was military necessity. We looked at four operations to invade the Japanese Home Island that would have cost another five to seven million American troops, and would have led to the annihilation of 125 million people. Dropping the bombs convinced the Japanese that we could slaughter all of them off and it would cost us NOTHING.

SHEER BLOODY MINDEDNESS: The ongoing development by third world countries of chemical and nuclear weapons is of this sort. The big boys have them, if we did they would treat us with respect. There is an old joke from when the IRA was letter-bombing England. The joke goes; the IRA has developed the atomic bomb. The problem is, they haven’t figure out how to make it fit in a letterbox yet.

Having Nuclear weapons would not deter a major nation so armed because they are still at the Hiroshima and pre Hydrogen bomb stage. Sure Korea can hit half a dozen American cities, or Iran could launch a nuke at Tel Aviv, but what happens then? Both of those nations are known to have such weapons in abundance. Israel has by my estimate about fifty to a hundred with yields ranging from 60 kilotons to a megaton. Tel Aviv eats 30 kilotons, and less than four hours later, every city in Iran is a smoking hole in the ground. The US had at the end of the Berlin wall and Evil Empire 16 thousand warheads ranging from dial -a-nuke B61s small enough for a fighter to carry that will pack between 50 kilotons and one megaton in the same bomb! That ranges up from 300 kiloton to 5 and ten-megaton bombs that need a strategic bomber or missile to carry. We get hit by dozen Korean missiles (Half an hour flight time, we know it’s coming) and the only question is who gets to level the entire nation, the missile troops, the bombers, or the Navy. We lose maybe ten to eleven million people, and 50 million Koreans join them in oblivion anywhere from thirty minutes to 26 hours later.

As you can see, Sheer bloody-mindedness is a reason to build it, but not a great reason.

So where does Star Wars fit it?

There are two such weapons shown in the Canon. They are the Death Star with the variant developed by the Imperial Rump after the Rebellion, where you just take the planet killer weapon and install it in a star destroyer. The other is the Shadow Mass Generator.

DEATH STAR
The Death Star and the follow on designs were originally built out of sheer bloody-mindedness. The Emperor wanted something that would blow an enemy planet to hell, be big enough that even a fleet could not attack it, and be mobile so that you were safe nowhere. IT may be slow and ponderous, but when it arrives, you’re toast.

After the original was destroyed, the Emperor built the second only to give the Republic a target they could not ignore. It became a desperation target, something that had to be destroyed even if it gutted the rebels in the process. The follow on weapons were built because like nukes, you already have the technology, and it’s a pity to waste it when you still need it.

SHADOW MASS GENERATOR

I was stunned when I found out about this because militarily it’s production might have made sense as an act of desperation, but deploying it made no military sense at all.

The time line if I am correct (Tell me if I am not) is; 40 years before Jedi Civil War, War of Exar Kun ends. Then 20 years later, the Mandalorians begin their expansion along the edge of the Republic. 12 years after this expansion, the Mandalorians attack. Four years after the original invasion, the Jedi enter the conflict. Four years after that, the Battle of Malachor.

Yet every story comment in TSL suggests that it was Bao-Dur who developed it, the Exile who ordered it’s construction and actually ordered its deployment. Then ordered its use.

Why? If the war ends less than five months later, why deploy it at all? As bad as the Mandalorians were, as destitute as the Republic might have been, this is like loading an atomic bomb on a plane after the battle of midway. Why would the Republic be so desperate?

A lot of writers who have added to the Star Wars Canon know little or nothing about weapons development, and I have to add the writer of this game to that group. There must be a reason for such a thing, and the story fails for me in that specific instance. When I reached the denouement when Bao-Dur lays the blame for it on the Exile, I had to come up with a logical reason. As you go one reading my work (Blatant Plug!) You will see that I came up with the following;

Bao Dur pointed out what it could do (Still the equivalent of the Einstein letter to Roosevelt that caused the Manhattan Project to be formed) and Republic officials desperate, begin construction. This is before the Jedi even entered the war.

The Jedi enter the war (Equivalent of the Battle of Midway) War turns around. Project continues.

Just before Malachor. The Jedi, specifically Revan and the Exile see that the war will end if they can remove the Mandalorian fleet. Without it, the Mandalorians, like a lot of warrior races are faced with to options. The logical one practiced throughout history of offering up their king (Such as Shaka allowing himself to be assassinated so another could take his place) or the Gotterdamerung option, which is what Hitler wanted to do and failed, but was expected from the Japanese.

So Malachor was for one reason, to smash that last active fleet. Like the second Death Star, they had taken a position the enemy had to attack.

Both sides knew it could go either way. However I can’t see the Republic with a lot more to lose committing every last ship they had. They had to have something to fall back on if the battle went against them. It would have done no good to send your entire fleet and suffer a Pyrric victory. You wouldn’t have been able to finish the job. The bad guys would rebuild enough to keep it going for another couple of years, and you don’t want that.

So another fleet was waiting in case Malachor failed. And the Exile orders the Shadow Mass Generator deployed. This is logical ONLY if total destruction of both fleets there would not affect the outcome, but the enemy must not be allowed to escape. So it is there like the atomic bomb in mid 1945. It can be used, but it is the necessity of saving lives that pushes Truman into using it.

But by the same token, unless you accept that even fighting a defensive war is evil, and everyone had already fallen to the dark side for daring to do so, using it means either the Republic was losing, or as I suggest, and accident. Some idiot pushed the button and blew away almost everyone, and as the one that sent it there the Exile gets the blame.

So if you create such a fiendish thingie, remember what I have said. k?

The usage of the Mas Shadow Generator was neccessary. From one of Bao-Dur's dialogue files:



Exile: What are you doing up?
Don't you ever sleep?
I didn't expect to see you awake.

Bao-Dur: I dreamt of Malachor. I remember the ships.

Bao-Dur: The last stand of the Republic. The tattered remnants of our fleet, the largest we could gather, but it was damaged, weakened and vulnerable.

Bao-Dur: The Mandalorians couldn't resist. They tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back.

Bao-Dur: Yet this time, there were no reinforcements for either side. Revan had been delayed out-system by Mandalorian scout ships. By the time he arrived, it was too late.

Bao-Dur: And beyond Malachor, there were no more Mandalorians left to die.

Bao-Dur: I remember standing on the bridge with you and watching the destruction of the Republic - watching ships full of soldiers and Jedi burn and die.

Bao-Dur: I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me.

Bao-Dur: You didn't say anything - just a nod.

Bao-Dur: Events move quickly then, even in my dreams. Flashes, explosions, you - falling. I could feel the pain around me.

Bao-Dur: And then the memory. The drifting hulks of the Mandalorian ships, the dead - allies, friends, strangers.

Bao-Dur: And then the echo. Lingering. The sound I awaken to in my nightmares.

That's all there is of relevance to the Mass Shadow Generator in there. From I've seen in the game and other dialogue, this is what happened:

The Mandalorians were routed, but not completely defeated. To end war soon as possible and to avoid having to follow the Mandalorians back into their homeland (the Unknown Regions, which was completely unfamiliar territory the Republic knew nothing of), Revan devised a trap that would let him completely crush the Mandalorians without risking his fleet too much. He sent a huge fleet to Malachor, and placed the soldiers and Jedi who weren't enitrely loyal to him in the positions where they had the greatest chance of being destroyed. As the battle progressed, the Mandalorians started to win, and the Exile to ordered the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator so the huge fleet the Republic gathered wouldn't be lost and so the Mandalorians could be defeated in one swift stroke. The activation of the weapon decimated the Mandalorians, and allowed the Republic to win the battle. The troops in that fleet not loyal to Revan were eradicated by the Mandalorians and the Mass Shadow Generator, because they had been placed at the front of the fleet.

The other Jedi who hadn't fallen to the dark side under Revan previously did then because of all the suffering, and because of the dark side energies Malachor possessed.

The usage of the Mas Shadow Generator was neccessary. From one of Bao-Dur's dialogue files:



Exile: What are you doing up?
Don't you ever sleep?
I didn't expect to see you awake.

Bao-Dur: I dreamt of Malachor. I remember the ships.

Bao-Dur: The last stand of the Republic. The tattered remnants of our fleet, the largest we could gather, but it was damaged, weakened and vulnerable.

Bao-Dur: The Mandalorians couldn't resist. They tore into us like beasts, shredding our ships to scrap as we fought back.

Bao-Dur: Yet this time, there were no reinforcements for either side. Revan had been delayed out-system by Mandalorian scout ships. By the time he arrived, it was too late.

Bao-Dur: And beyond Malachor, there were no more Mandalorians left to die.

Bao-Dur: I remember standing on the bridge with you and watching the destruction of the Republic - watching ships full of soldiers and Jedi burn and die.

Bao-Dur: I remember the look you had when you turned to me. It was the longest you'd ever looked at me.

Bao-Dur: You didn't say anything - just a nod.


I cut it off, because this is where it ended in the game as I saw it. None of what followed came up. As I said, if there was a cutscene I never saw it.

In my version, (KOTOR Excerpts) Revan was there, and that is what I used, because I had never seen this. Besides, I stand by my contention. Only an idiot would have used it, and I can't see any Jedi doing something like this unless their was no alternative.

So my version is going away from the game. Mea Culpa

I cut it off, because this is where it ended in the game as I saw it. None of what followed came up. As I said, if there was a cutscene I never saw it.

There never was a cutscene of the Mass Shadow Generator being activated. Do you mean that at the point you got to in your first playthrough the game ended in your opinion?

Besides, I stand by my contention. Only an idiot would have used it, and I can't see any Jedi doing something like this unless their was no alternative.

There wasn't. That situation was similar to the end of WWII - the enemy was severely weakened and was going to lose, but they were still fighting. To end the war in one swift stroke, a weapon of incredible destruction was used. If it hadn't been, the Mandalorians would have won the battle, severly crippled the Republic fleet, and killed off the commanders who were responsible for turning the tide of the war.

There wasn't. That situation was similar to the end of WWII - the enemy was severely weakened and was going to lose, but they were still fighting. To end the war in one swift stroke, a weapon of incredible destruction was used. If it hadn't been, the Mandalorians would have won the battle, severly crippled the Republic fleet, and killed off the commanders who were responsible for turning the tide of the war.

First, I went my own way because A: As I have said before, the battle and reasoning made no military sense. Comparing the war to WWII, the invasion was equivilant of Pearl Harbor, The Jedi entering was Midway and Dxun was their Operation Pestilence, which was the invasion of Guadalcanal. But the only comparison for Malachor was Stalingrad. A battle that both sides fought because Neither couldn admit the failure of their views!

If you continue the Analogy, think of the Republic as the US, and the Mandalorians as the Japanese. They had not seriously ruined the Republic's capability to fight, only it's will. If we had lost Midway it would not have destroyed our ability to fight. the way and reason the of the battle even being fought made no military or strategic sense.

It wasn't that I ignored the game after the commentary of Malachor, I simply resufed to accept the way things are said to have gone. I cannot see someone everyone agreed was a tactical and strategic genius (Revan) putting herself in the position of fighting an unnecessary battle with an atomic bomb when a lightsaber would have done. So I rewrote the war to have it make sense.

As I said before, a lot of people who know nothing of war, or have no scruples about throwing aside the scruples a Jedi would have been taught for their story have added to the canon. As an example, Steven Barnes, who I love as a writer has the Jedi running a false flag opreration. Two Jedi show up on a planet vital to the Republic's interests but as Obi Wan is there as a diplomat trying to sway them another Jedi is busily creating a guerilla operation to destabilize the government they are talking to!

As An American I can see the hamhanded political maneuvering of an American State Department, but can you see the Jedi doing the same?

First, I went my own way because A: As I have said before, the battle and reasoning made no military sense.

I suppose you could compare the Mandalorian Wars to WWII, although there were quite a few differences. I think Kursk would be a better comparison, as both were the most massive battles of the war, although with Malachor the war ended as soon as the battle did.

the way and reason the of the battle even being fought made no military or strategic sense.

Malachor V and the Mandalorian Wars overall were not about the Mandalorians. It was nothing but a staging ground for Revan to get a large amount of the Republic and Jedi to be loyal to him.

I'll outline everything to do with the battle so I can clear this matter up:

The war is all but over, and Revan is the Supreme Commander of the Republic's fleet. This is 1945 for the Mandalorians, and they have no chance of victory. Their resources are bled up, they've lost the planets they controlled, and are incapable of fighting a prolonged war. The only possible chance they have at victory is a blitzkrieg-style attack on a large gathering of the Republic's fleet.

Realizing this, Revan sets a master trap. He has travelled to Malachor before, and knows how strong the dark side is. He will use the energies the planet possesses to completely convert the Jedi who followed him to the dark side. To make sure the Mandalorians come to Malachor, he marshalls the largest Republic fleet of the war, and brings his best commanders there, and has the Mass Shadow Generator created.

This is too tempting a target for the Mandalorians. If they win this battle, they might have a chance against the Republic. If not, they lose. But if things keep going the way they are, they'll lose anyway. The Mandalorians gather what's left of their entire fleet, and send it to Malachor, since the Republic has placed their best eggs in one basket.

The situation is a win-win one for Revan. If the Republic fleet defeats the Mandalorians, they win. If his fleet can't, the Mass Shadow Generator will be activated, and he'll win anyway, since his fleet can afford more losses, and the Republic has ships elsewhere in the galaxy. He also places ships with the Jedi and soldiers who would not betray the Republic at the head of the fleet, where they are at the gretest risk.

To protect himself from any possible harm, Revan lies about being off-system, and goes to the heart of Malachor V. He is completely safe, and draws upon the dark side energies the planet possesses. During the heat of the battle and amidst all the conflict, Revan uses his own power and the dark energies to corrupt the Jedi who followed him. After a whole war of conflict, and now direct corruption from Revan, the Jedi turn to the dark side.

With the Exile, the battle is going poorly. The Mandalorians are decimating her ships, and the battle will be lost. To avoid the loss of her fleet and possibly the Republic itself, she orders the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator. The tide of the battle turns. Revan comes out, and duels Mandalore personally. He kills him and takes the helmet, ensuring the Mandalorians will not rise again.

The end result: The Mandalorians are wiped out, and with the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator, he has purged his fleet of soldiers who are loyal to the Republic over him. The Jedi with him have fallen to the dark side. He then leads them into the Unknown Regions, claiming to see if any Mandalorians are still in their homelands. With his troops far away, he turn them into the Sith.

I cannot see someone everyone agreed was a tactical and strategic genius (Revan) putting herself in the position of fighting an unnecessary battle with an atomic bomb when a lightsaber would have done. So I rewrote the war to have it make sense.

Neither could I, or the writers at Obsidian. Revan was not even present for most of the battle. Instead, he was at the core of the fifth planet, safe from all harm. Although Bao-Dur and other Republic soldiers thought he had been delayed out of the system, he was in truth under their noses.

As An American I can see the hamhanded political maneuvering of an American State Department, but can you see the Jedi doing the same?

No. Jedi are pacifists who dislike concealment.

My question ED, is this your 'take' on it, or verified with data I can get out of the game?

I can't see Revan falling to the dark side so readily. I always postulated that Revan had ended the war with a burning desire to fix the government that had caused so much crap to happen. After all thery'd fought the first four with the equivilant of General Elpihnstone or Bazin in charge.

I can't see her murdering so many of her troops in the hope that it would solidify her hold. The idea that she had already been there needs explanation as well. If this had been the case, she would not have needed to find the Star Forge and enlist the Sith. No more than Cincinnatus needed to gather an army after his last battle. He would have been handed the Roman Imperial Crown if he had wanted it. Instead, like my Exile, he turned around and walked away.

My version would explain why she (My version: personal pronouns interchangable) suddenly took it into her head to find the Star Forge. In my version it was that and having to enlist the Sith to have sufficient troops first that caused her fall to the dark side. Sort of like Anakin in ROTS where he fell because he believed Palpatine's lie that only he could save Padme from dying.

Let us just say, too many people play fast and loose with how a Jedi should be thinking and how easy it is to fall. It's like agreeing with the Christians that an unfair test of two people made sense in sentencing an entire race to torment.

It is verified with data from the game, and with the information on KotOR II's official site. The only thing that is not explicity stated is Revan lying about where he was, but that was obvious. :)

Revan's fall to the dark side I do not think ahppened during the Mandalorian Wars. Vrook states that, and I agree. It's implied that happened anyway, because Kreia says that the Mandalorians Wars were a series of massacres Revan used to gain an army.

How Revan found out about the Star Forge is anyone's guess, but the results can't be denied.

Then my books veer away, and to tell you the truth, I see no other way to write them.

Do you mean Revan's desire to fix the Republic's government? Your books don't veer away that much. Kreia says that Revan sacrificed himself and fell to the dark side only so he could fortify the Republic for the war against the True Sith.

Do you mean Revan's desire to fix the Republic's government? Your books don't veer away that much. Kreia says that Revan sacrificed himself and fell to the dark side only so he could fortify the Republic for the war against the True Sith.


No I mean the 'let's slaughter off all of those that won't follow me at Malachor' part. My version had her fall after finding the Star Forge.

As I will point out in the segment with the Jedi Master on Nar Shaddaa, which I will post monentarily, fifty of the Jedi from the fleet at Malachor survived. They were the basis if that 'let's clean up this effing mess' which is what caused Revan to fall in my versions.