Thousands of people (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060325/D8GIA4982.html) turned out across the US today to protest the Congress finally formally addressing the issue of illegal immigration.

The immigration bill(s) stiffen penalties for immigrants who are in the US illegaly (making illegal immigration a felony), and gives illegal immigrants 5 years to leave the US and apply for legal citizenship. It also provides for stiffer penalties for businesses that hire illegal immigrants and provides local law enforcement agencies with authority and incentives to apprehend illegal immigrants. I also read somewhere this morning that one of the bills includes the building of a fence along 1/3 of the Mexican border.

Personally, I think these measures have been too long in coming. Illegal immigration is a serious problem in California, where I live, and in other border states. I'm almost motivated enough to stand on a street corner with a sign saying "What took so long?". It shouldn't take an election year to get our legislators to finally do their jobs...but at least it's finally getting done.

Two of the primary arguments I've heard against immigration reform are the race card, and what I like to call "the lettuce argument." The race card is quite obvious. People claim that stiffer immigration policies will cause racism toward legal Latino immigrants. While I believe that stiffer immigration policies will make it to where legal immigrants will have to prove that they are citizens in more situations, the fault of that is not on our legislators for finally making our immigration laws enforceable; the fault is on all of the immigrants who came to the US illegally.

The other argument is along these lines: without the illegal immigrants to work in the farms at low wages, vegetable prices will soar. I usually hear this argument framed in the terms of, "are you willing to pay $15 for a head of lettuce?"

Now, while this argument seems valid on the surface (President Bush has repeatedly said that illegal immigrants are doing the jobs that Americans are not willing to do), if you look deeper, it's easy to see that this is a bunch of bunk. For one thing, illegal immigration is taking massive amounts of taxpayer dollars from legal citizens in the forms of health care and education. As things stand today, hospitals cannot deny service to non-citizens (this, imo is how it should be). The problem is that illegal immigrants can go into the emergency room, get medical treatment, and the state (taxpayers) pay for iit. This is not how it should be...and it is turning into an extremely serious drain on our state's economy.

The other major drain is education. Children come to the US illegally with their parents, and speak very little or no English. Not only do they take advantage of the US public education system, which they are not paying taxes to support, but their children are a strain on the system itself, because our teachers have to take time away from citizen-students to try and teach non-citizen students English so that they can catch up. This has been a huge contributor to the lowering of standards in schools across America - because the schools cannot keep up with the demands of teaching American students what they should be learning and teaching illegal immigrant students English on top of what they should be learning. And on top of that, their parents cannot provide much help in their childrens' education, because most of the parents speak little or no English.

In this way, the "lettuce argument" holds no water, because we're already paying $15 for a head of lettuce, or we will be soon...but the extra cost is coming in the form of extra taxes to prop up the state agencies that are falling under such burdens due to illegal immigration. The problem is that the higher ag prices seem more daunting because we're paying them up-front, rather than in the form of taxes, using the government as a middle-man.

And all of this is aside from other problems, such as illegal immigrants driving around with no license or insurance - if you get hit by an illegal immigrant w/o insurance, then you're screwed...and that's all there is to it. Also, money sent back to Mexico from immigrants to the US is a major staple in the Mexican economy (I think I heard it was their #2 earner, second to oil). All of that money sent back is money that is not being re-invested in the US economy. We're talking billions of dollars worth of economic improvement.

The argument that these are jobs that Americans won't take is, imo, a bunch of bunk, as well. The reason that Americans won't take farming jobs is that it's that much easier to get Welfare...and with illegal immigrants so prevalent today, it's extremely difficult for citizens to get those jobs even when they do try to. Personally, I think some kind of welfare reform should accompany this. At the least, we could use prison labor to work farms...though in the past that has proven to be quite corrupt, and definitely not ideal. But at the least, if you're out of work and can't find a job anywhere else, you should be willing to do whatever it takes to make money & support your family. Farm labor definitely isn't ideal, but it is work. And if you aren't willing to work for your money, there is no reason for the government to be supporting you.

The thing that disgusts me the most about these protests is that many of the protestors are illegal immigrants, walking around with Mexican flags and signs that say, "I am not a criminal." Here's a news flash: if you're in the USA in violation of our immigration laws, you are a criminal, whether you like it or not.

For Mexico, I see this legislation (if it's effective in curbing illegal immigration) as an opportunity for Mexican citizens to reform their government and improve their nation. The Mexican government has had problems with corruption and poverty for years and years, and illegal immigration has been an easy way out for them: it gives poor Mexicans a better life, and lets the Mexican government slide on its shortcomings. Maybe if we curb illegal immigration, Mexico will be forced to deal with its problems, instead of running away from them.

Anyway, that's my take on the issue.

I don't know much about the details of the issue in the US, but the reason this sort of measure usually gets called racist isn't that it will increase racism... its that it usually gets trotted out by politicians in a blatant attempt to win quick votes by basically "kicking an easy target".

Immigration is one of those issues that can almost always do with some sensible reform, but which never gets considered sensibly, only in the heat of rhetoric and vote grabbing.
Any attempts to rationalise immigration inevitably gets hailed as "being soft on illegal imigration" and being "racist" by the various sides. Politicians... sigh..

I haven't really formed an opinion on the immigration issues, but it strikes me as odd that being here illegally wasn't already a crime??

It IS a crime.

It's like piracy in how it's treated though... It's technically a crime, but almost no one calls you on it, and some revere it.

In fact, you're not even allowed to inform the authorities if you're police and you find an illegal immigrant in New York City.

Okay, I'm really disgusted about this now (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/28/060328144530.5qwylcsk.html). Non-citizen illegal immigrants are out in the streets demanding rights that any nation only guarantees to its citizens. They're basically saying that the fact that they broke the law doesn't necessarily make them criminals. Sometimes (most times) relativism really pisses me off...but this time especially. Not only are these illegal immigrants showing blatant disregard for the law, but they are demanding citizenship. It was bad enough when Vicente Fox was speaking against the US for thinking about immigration reform, but now we have thousands of illegal immigrants marching in the streets demanding rights. Of course the fact that Fox is out there in support of amnesty makes me think that the best thing for Mexico would be to deport just as many illegal immigrants as we can, and close the border so they can't make it back into the US...maybe then they'll get rid of Fox and fix their own country.

The other thing that really hacks me off is that so many are trying people who are pro-immigration reform as racist. Can we PLEASE stop playing the race card every time a hot issue comes into politics? Pretty please?

There is nothing racist about acknowledging that illegal immigration is a crime. The fact that most illegal immigrants are Mexican/Hispanic only means that our neighbors to the South have really screwed up governments that apparently cannot take care of their citizens. That doesn't mean we have to take them in and give them rights. Enforcing immigration law isn't xenophopbic, and it isn't racist...it's legal, and it's practical. I've never heard anyone who was totally anti-immigrant (though I'm sure there are a few of them out there), but most people just want immigrants to follow the law. But for Dems in Washington, that seems to be just too much to ask.

The thing that these illegal immigrants don't seem to understand is that even as rich as the United States is, we cannot afford to support everyone who wants to come into our country. Illegal immigration is already costing us billions of dollars every year, and if our government responds to these rallies by placating the illegal immigrants, whether by softening the law so that it remains unenforceable, or allowing any kind of an amnesty, illegal immigration will bring the US down - with the current rate of illegals coming into the US, it's only a matter of time.


And all of that doesn't even address the problems we've had with drugs coming across the border...yet another reason to tighten up the law and the border.

Rccar, I see a lot of unsubstantiated "facts" that may or may not be true in your posts. If true and verifiable, they're meaningful. If unverifiable, they're simply rhetoric and amount to deception.

You say, "non-citizen illegal immigrants are out in the streets demanding rights that any nation only guarantees to its citizens," which may be true. But how many are "non-citizen illegal immigrants? There were 500,000+ people demonstrating in the streets of Los Angeles alone. Are you suggesting that these people, who were chanting "[t]oday we march, tomorrow we vote," are all illegal. Obviously not. I haven't seen where it has been substantiated that even a modest percentage of these protesters were illegally immigrated.

In my own metropolitan area of Dallas-Fort Worth, thousands of school kids are staging walk-outs in protest. The amazing thing is that they are actually protesting. They aren't walking out of school and heading to their hang-outs or homes to their Playstations, their headed for City Hall bearing Mexican flags. And very few school kids in the Dallas Independent School District are actually illegal. Some are. But they are a tiny minority.

"The fact that most illegal immigrants are Mexican/Hispanic only means that our neighbors to the South have really screwed up governments that apparently cannot take care of their citizens." It only means this? Are you sure about that? There are *no* other mitigating factors? Or is this just more rhetoric?

" but most people just want immigrants to follow the law. But for Dems in Washington, that seems to be just too much to ask." Are you suggesting that it was the "Dems" in Washington that were opposed and the Republicans were all for it? After days of street demonstrations that stretched from California to the grounds of the U.S. Capitol, a coalition of Democrats and Republicans also agreed to strip out proposed criminal penalties for residents found to be in this country illegally. [...] The 12-6 vote was unusual, with a majority of Republicans opposed to the measure even though their party controls the Senate.http://www.berkshireeagle.com/headlines/ci_3646409)

Finally, " Illegal immigration is already costing us billions of dollars every year, [...] illegal immigration will bring the US down." I'd like to see you quantify that claim while contrasting it to the benefits that U.S. employers and consumers receive because of the low wages they're able to pay to these immigrants. Illegal immigrants do far more in our country than pick lettuce (one could argue this to be a racist perception in and of itself): they build homes, work in factories, cook and even own restaurants, start small businesses and work for family members who are citizens and have small to medium businesses. And, perhaps most importantly, they are consumers. They rent & buy homes and consumer goods. Their children (most born in the U.S.) go to college and get degrees and become professionals and tradesmen.

Your assumption that illegals create an undo burden on the economy is likely to be false and racially driven, though I'm sure you would disagree.

My main beef with them is that they don't pay some taxes. Citizens have to support the infrastructure while everyone gets to use it, and that's not cool. If they want to take advantage of everything, sure. But let's not seperate the costs from the benefits; no matter what opinion you have of the US goverment's actions, it has an incredibly huge debt that needs paying off on top of all the rest of its duties. Allowing so many illegals to shirk federal taxes etc. does not help that situation at all.

From CBS.com (http://cbs2.com/topstories/topstories_story_087055339.html):

"...about 58 percent of those undocumented workers are employed and of that number, over half are paying federal taxes. But the revenue is not enough to offset the drain on the federal budget in the form of services including $2.5 billion in Medicaid costs, $2.2 billion for health care for the uninsured, and $1.9 billion for food stamps."

As for my comment about non-citizen illegal immigrants marching in the streets, I know that not all of the protestors are illegals. I mentioned that in my first post. But many of them are.

Are you suggesting that it was the "Dems" in Washington that were opposed and the Republicans were all for it?
No, there are some moronic Republicans opposing the reform. Personally, I think most of this opposition amounts to little more than pandering for Hispanic votes. Bringing up immigration reform is too similar to bringing up Social Security reform: just as mentions of Social Security reform lead to accusations that politicians are trying to take money from the elderly, mentions of immigration reform inevitably lead to cries of racism, practical concerns be damned.

I'd like to see you quantify that claim while contrasting it to the benefits that U.S. employers and consumers receive because of the low wages they're able to pay to these immigrants. Illegal immigrants do far more in our country than pick lettuce (one could argue this to be a racist perception in and of itself): they build homes, work in factories, cook and even own restaurants, start small businesses and work for family members who are citizens and have small to medium businesses. And, perhaps most importantly, they are consumers. They rent & buy homes and consumer goods. Their children (most born in the U.S.) go to college and get degrees and become professionals and tradesmen.
I know that illegal immigrants don't just pick lettuce. That's how I keep hearing the argument framed, so that's the example I used. Yes, they are consumers. They are also sending around $20 billion (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14191386.htm) back to Mexico each year...undeniably a drain on our economy, and probably one of the only things keeping the Mexican economy afloat, aside from oil (the only thing in Mexico making more money).

Your assumption that illegals create an undo burden on the economy is likely to be false and racially driven, though I'm sure you would disagree.

I'm not assuming, I'm looking at the evidence. Billions of dollars in health care and food stamps. Billions of dollars sent to Mexico. Here in California, our schools are suffering because not only are teachers having to teach children basic English in third grade and higher, but the students' parents cannot speak English to help teach them, which is an essential part of any students' education. I've seen that happening with my own two eyes.

I haven't seen where it has been substantiated that even a modest percentage of these protesters were illegally immigrated.
And you accuse me of assuming? No, I don't think anyone has taken a poll of the protestors to find out how many are illegal immigrants. But if you'd engage in common sense from time to time, it'd be easy to see. Why would a legal immigrant or citizen protest immigration law with a sign reading, "I am not a criminal?" It'd be pointless - immigration law doesn't target them. But with more than 400 million (http://www.cis.org/topics/currentnumbers.html) illegal immigrants in the US, I guarantee you that a significant chunk of the protestors are in the US illegally. Or have you seen it substantiated that every protestor is a citizen?

It only means this? Are you sure about that? There are *no* other mitigating factors?
No, the fact that I didn't go through the entire list doesn't mean that's the only mitigating factor. If the US had started enforcing immigration law a long time (at least 30-50 years) ago like they should have, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But saying that Mexico has problems is like saying Bill Gates has money. It's a no-brainer.

I don't get this whole issue. They're illegal immigrants and claiming they're not criminals?!? The deal is, you're a citizen you're entitled to the right to vote, and get government funded services in exchange for paying taxes. You're not a citizen you don't get s*** from the government. You don't get to vote and you don't get access to any government funded services. These people shouldn't even be here and now they want all the rights that people who are allowed to be here have? Christ, they're lucky that they haven't been deported or thrown in jail and now they're b****in' about it?!?

This issue is somewhat simple. They shouldn't be here. They can either take what they can get here or leave, and they shouldn't even have that choice, being as they SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! I can't even believe they're protesting that we're enforcing our laws now...

I don't get this whole issue. They're illegal immigrants and claiming they're not criminals?!? The deal is, you're a citizen you're entitled to the right to vote, and get government funded services in exchange for paying taxes. You're not a citizen you don't get s*** from the government. You don't get to vote and you don't get access to any government funded services. These people shouldn't even be here and now they want all the rights that people who are allowed to be here have? Christ, they're lucky that they haven't been deported or thrown in jail and now they're b****in' about it?!?

This issue is somewhat simple. They shouldn't be here. They can either take what they can get here or leave, and they shouldn't even have that choice, being as they SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE! I can't even believe they're protesting that we're enforcing our laws now...
That's all I'm sayin...with you 200%.

How hard is it to get U.S. citizenship? I've looked around on the web, but haven't found anything to help me with the question.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/general.htm)
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/guide.htm)

Those have info on the process.

How hard is it to get U.S. citizenship? I've looked around on the web, but haven't found anything to help me with the question.
From what I've heard, it's pretty difficult, especially for immigrants from Mexico...but illegal immigration is one of the main contributing factors to that (along with massive gov't bureaucracy). I have several friends who are from China & Taiwan, here on work visas & working toward citizenship, and it's quite a process for them, as well. It takes time & a lot of paperwork.

From what I've heard, it's pretty difficult, especially for immigrants from Mexico...but illegal immigration is one of the main contributing factors to that (along with massive gov't bureaucracy). I have several friends who are from China & Taiwan, here on work visas & working toward citizenship, and it's quite a process for them, as well. It takes time & a lot of paperwork.


It is quite a daunting process. Even after the Vietnam War, my parents, even though they were refugees, would have had such a hard time trying to get into the US they decided to settle for Canada...who pretty much accepts everyone.

I think it's more of a vicious circle then a simplified "illegal immigration makes it difficult". It's already difficult, so people resort to illegal immigrations. As the law is reinforced to make it harder, people also try harder to get in illegally. Repeat.

I know that illegal immigrants don't just pick lettuce. That's how I keep hearing the argument framed, so that's the example I used. Yes, they are consumers. They are also sending around $20 billion back to Mexico each year...undeniably a drain on our economy, and probably one of the only things keeping the Mexican economy afloat, aside from oil (the only thing in Mexico making more money).

I'm not too sure about this. It only says $20 billion is sent back to Mexico and it constitutes their second source of income after oil, but there is no precision as to what form that $20 billion takes.
From what I can guess, being son of immigrants myself, is that most of that $20 billion is sent back to support their families. Immigration out of necessity is quite common. Often, you'll see immigrants coming here to work (legally or illegally), just to send money back so that their little brothers and sisters can eat. Can it be considered a drain on the economy? Yes, but from a moral standpoint, stopping that wouldn't really be acceptable.

It seems that you consider sending money back to your old country as something inherently wrong or I may have misunderstood you.

I think it's more of a vicious circle then a simplified "illegal immigration makes it difficult". It's already difficult, so people resort to illegal immigrations. As the law is reinforced to make it harder, people also try harder to get in illegally. Repeat.

Thats my take on it too.
With a lot of these political issues youcan't help but think that if they just started completely from scratch they could sort it out pretty easily - but they are all such vicious circles that the politicians can never break out of them to distance themselves enough to make sensible decisions.

Thats my take on it too.
With a lot of these political issues youcan't help but think that if they just started completely from scratch they could sort it out pretty easily - but they are all such vicious circles that the politicians can never break out of them to distance themselves enough to make sensible decisions.
That's why we need to close the border. Securing the border is step one in ending the cycle. Without that, any kind of legislation that Congress may pass is completely meaningless...but if we secure the border, then it makes sense to start talking about guest worker programs & what to do about the millions of illegal immigrants that are already in the US.

That's why we need to close the border. Securing the border is step one in ending the cycle. Without that, any kind of legislation that Congress may pass is completely meaningless...but if we secure the border, then it makes sense to start talking about guest worker programs & what to do about the millions of illegal immigrants that are already in the US.

I think a good analogy for this would be if you're in a boat that's sprung a leak, it's more important to plug the leak so that more water can't come in, and then you can deal with getting the water out that's already in. But if you try to get the water out while more water is coming in faster than you can get out, you eventually sink...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!!

Unlike most other countries the USA is built on immigrants, and has made a virtue of it's welcoming of downtrodden or oppressed peoples from various cultures and countries. So its fairly understandable that this image would encourage those who are currently poor or downtrodden to believe that the USA is a welcoming place that is the land of opportunity.

True...but times change. The US cannot afford to take in everyone looking for refuge indefinitely...if we did, then eventually the system would become so burdened that the US would be worse off than the nations from which the immigrants came.

That's why the US government restricts immigration...we can't take everyone.

And besides that, it reaches a point where Mexico should work on fixing its own problems instead of Viciente Fox whining and complaining because the US doesn't want to take in every poor person from his country.

Let's mine the border. Try to sneak in... BAM! Lost your legs.

But seriously, we need to secure our borders. Don't give me any of that "can't increase security without giving up liberties" crap. It's building better fences or something, and turning people back when they try to sneak in.

Sure, we're "built off immigrants," but that was in the past. We have all the people we need, thanks.

Sometihng off-topic: Today's Simpson's episode was about Proposition 24... coincidence? I think not!

How would a better fence on the mexican border have made the slightest difference to US security in the last 10 years? It wouldn't. Oklahoma bomber was a US citizen using freely available materials within the US. 9/11 lot all entered the country legally. Flew in under their own names i think.

Sure, we're "built off immigrants," but that was in the past. We have all the people we need, thanks.
Hey, so why don't we send back you and your family to make room for some new and different immigrants... First in First out.

"We have all the people we need" is such rubbish. The way the population of the world is expanding everywhere is going to have to make do with a lot more people than they have now... and the whole centre of the US must be one of the leasrt populous areas in the world.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/World_population_density_map.PNG/800px-World_population_density_map.PNG)
(people per km squared. USA has 25-50 pkm2, Mexico has 50-75, UK (and most of europe) has 150-300!!!) USA is 143/200 when listed by population density.

But none of that matters, because immigration is always much more of an emotional issue than a logical one. I remember visiting New Zealand a few years ago and they were in the middle of a "Send them all back! We are full!" frenzy. WHich was rediculous in a country where the biggest city felt like a small town and where you could drive for hours and never see a soul. Most empty place i've ever seen!

I don't believe that we have all the people we need...but I do know that we can't take everyone...and immigration regulations exist so that our infrastructure can keep up with the population increase, which isn't happening the way things are going now.

And it is a national security issue. I remember hearing about a year or so ago about the border patrol catching ten or so Iranian citizens trying to cross the Mexican border...and if they were trying to get across, there's no way to know how many weren't caught. It's true that the border isn't the only security concern the US needs to pay attention to...but in order to have a comprehensive security plan, the border has to be closed.

Yeah, the Oklahoma City bomber used materials obtained inside the US...and that's why you can't just go out and buy a bunch of fertilizer, especially if you're not in farming, without the FBI keeping an eye on you or even paying you a visit (the same applies to other materials that could be used to make explosives). Yeah, the 9/11 terrorists entered the country illegally, which is why we now pay more attention to terrorist watch lists & have tougher airport security. There is no one thing that will solve our national security problems...we have to take a comprehensive approach, and border security is part of that.

And yeah, the center of the US isn't that populous...because it's where most of the farming takes place. It wouldn't do anyone any good if we started populating all of our farmland.

And it is a national security issue. I remember hearing about a year or so ago about the border patrol catching ten or so Iranian citizens trying to cross the Mexican borderBecause clearly since they're from Iran they are a national security problem?
& have tougher airport security. Because our airports are SO secure now. Pulling aside one person in 50 to do a "thorough" check certainly will catch all those terrorists.

And as for building better fences, that will do little to nothing to solve the problem, Molly Ivins wrote an Article on CNN not too long ago and mentioned the building of a fence along the entire border.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/30/ivins.immigration/index.html)
At the time, the proposal was quite specific -- a 17-foot cyclone fence with bob wire at the top. So a test fence was built at Terlingua, and the First-Ever Terlingua Memorial Over, Under or Through Mexican Fence Climbing Contest took place. Prize: a case of Lone Star beer. Winning time: 30 seconds.
So the test fence managed to hold someone out for a whole 30 seconds when all that was at stake was a case of beer.

Because clearly since they're from Iran they are a national security problem?
Well, it's patently obvious that Iran is not our friend. And the Iranians who were caught crossing the border were at least affiliated with known terrorist organizations (which is why it made the news in the first place, though I don't remember the extent of their affiliation/membership with terrorist groups).


Because our airports are SO secure now. Pulling aside one person in 50 to do a "thorough" check certainly will catch all those terrorists.
I never claimed that our airports are secure...but they are more secure than they were pre-9/11.

And as for building better fences, that will do little to nothing to solve the problem, Molly Ivins wrote an Article on CNN not too long ago and mentioned the building of a fence along the entire border.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/30/ivins.immigration/index.html)

So the test fence managed to hold someone out for a whole 30 seconds when all that was at stake was a case of beer.
Well, Molly Ivins isn't really a reputable source...more like a left-wing political hack, that aside:

The example she cited was a cyclone fence...otherwise known as chain link. Easily defeated with some sturdy wire cutters or bolt cutters...slightly more difficult to overcome with a saw, but still abundantly possible.

Anyone who thinks that chain link & barbed wire or even razor wire is going to keep illegal immigrants out is a fool. Just like with national security, border security needs to be comprehensive - a real fence (as in something that would take some concerted effort to defeat), or even a wall, coupled with more border patrol agents and stricter legal enforcement.

Ivins, in her column, says, "No fence will work. The Great darn Wall of China will not work." Well, there is a reason that the Great Wall of China was built so wide, and it wasn't so the Monguls would have a place to stop for a breather after expending the effort to climb to the top. It was built that way so that men could patrol and keep an eye out.

Simply put, there is no one hard-and-fast solution to border security. It's not a matter of put up a fence, and whoopee! All our problems are solved. Securing our borders will take a tough, multi-faceted approach.

Ivins suggests that we can stop illegal immigration by punishing corporations that hire illegal workers...and she's right, in that aspect, but that alone won't amount to squat without border enforcement...no policy will.

Just check out what they got in Israel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Israelwall.jpg)

Now that's what I call a fence. :p

Just check out what they got in Israel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Israelwall.jpg)

Now that's what I call a fence. :p
Yeah...now that's what I'm talkin 'bout... :D

And it'd be a heck of a lot better than what we've got now:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1505/1414/320/09-26-05%20010.jpg)

And in a lot of places, we don't even have that...there's either nothing guarding the border at all, or just a simple barbed-wire fence.

MOst countries in the world have unguarded borders. I'd have thought its dead easy to walk from the top of europe to the bottom across dozens of borders without once seeing any sort of border guard (and it would have been exactly the same 10 or 20 years ago before the EU merging took place too),

I'm not keen on this new world where every country is srrounded by a 20 foot high concrete wall... :(

I'm not keen on this new world where every country is srrounded by a 20 foot high concrete wall... :(You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.

I agree that we need to tighten up the border, but I'm not sure that a wall is the best idea. I'm all for people coming to this country, but legally. Perhaps lessen then process of becoming a citizen will encourage more people to become a citizen. And in turn make our need for more border control smaller. This is wishful thinking of course.

You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.
How do you propose we fix things, then?

How do you propose we fix things, then?I propose that you don't need to fix what isn't broken.

I propose that you don't need to fix what isn't broken.
But our immigration system is broken...that's the whole point.

Anyone that says there is no problem is just lying to themselves.

One of the things that makes me mad are the people that say "they do the jobs we don't want to do" whoever first came up with that is just so full of ****, sure, some people may not want to be farm workers or construction workers. But the main fact is that when illegal immigrants get jobs, they are paid MUCH less than an American would be paid. This may be good for the employer (more profits) but its just plain WRONG to pay people that little.

That and the amount of money they suck out of the government, and send home, it really makes my blood boil just thinking about it.

I live in Texas and see first hand how illegal immigration works over the system. I actually live in the part of town that most immigrants live, and the effects are not good. The amount of money that they are paid (along with them sending money orders home to good 'ol Mexico) leave them a very small amount to live off. This means that there are large slums on the east end of town. Those that have their family’s here can't really keep food for them all the time, so they send them to school for breakfast and lunch so that they only have to feed them some chips and a snickers for dinner.

Also, another peeve of mine is the amount of crime that comes with them, as far as I know not many criminals come over the boarder, but illegals carry a large amount of cash money on them (since they can't be paid the normal way because they are illegal) so they are prime targets for each other and the punks of our own society.

Anyone want to see these horrid living conditions? I will be more than happy to post pics. They are turning this part of town into another Mexico down here in Austin. Unlike some I am most unimpressed with what’s going on.

Sorry if this post seems spastic. I will be more than happy to explain anything I can...

they are paid MUCH less than an American would be paid. This may be good for the employerYou're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.

You're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.
We're already paying that cost in the form of services to illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes. According to the Center for Immigration Studies (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html), illegal aliens used $10 billion more in services than they paid in taxes in 2002. Their study also showed that if we offered amnesty, that amount would likely increase to around $29 billion.

The argument that getting rid of illegal immigrants would raise prices sounds good, but it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

MOst countries in the world have unguarded borders. I'd have thought its dead easy to walk from the top of europe to the bottom across dozens of borders without once seeing any sort of border guard (and it would have been exactly the same 10 or 20 years ago before the EU merging took place too),

I'm not keen on this new world where every country is srrounded by a 20 foot high concrete wall... :(
But I haven't heard of any European nations having to deal with millions of illegal immigrants entering their nations every year and mooching off of their social services without paying their taxes...

illegal aliens used $10 billion more in services than they paid in taxes in 2002. Wow. ten billion dollars? I can play with numbers too though. Lets imagine that we lose our illegal immigrants, and therefore costs of things WILL rise. Lets use Apples as an example at the moment. In 2004, the average US consumer consumed 49 pounds of apple products (http://www.usapple.org/consumers/applebits/core.cfm). That's an estimation though, so lets be conservative and say 40 pounds. Then lets imagine that apple prices rise by only 25 cents (another very conservative increase, when the workers replacing the immigrants will be demanding salary at least twice what is paid now). Assuming the US population is 290,000,000 (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html) that means it will cost US consumers 2.9 billion dollars in apples alone. This is using very conservative numbers and guestimates, My guess is the price increase would be closer to a dollar a pound. But even if my numbers were correct, there's still a whole lot of other produce, and a whole lot of other services that we pay for. Do you think that cost won't exceed 10 billion dollars?

It could easily reach the hundred billion plus of dollars mark.

But I haven't heard of any European nations having to deal with millions of illegal immigrants entering their nations every year and mooching off of their social services without paying their taxes...

Can't say I'm surprised. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about nations on the continent, but the United Kingdom receives large numbers of illegal immigrants, enough for it to be a fairly heated political topic over here at any rate. Considering that we're surrounded entirely by water, I expect that other European countries receive far more illegal immigrants.

And yeah, the center of the US isn't that populous...because it's where most of the farming takes place. And who do you think DOES a lot of that farming? There are a lot of farmers who wouldn't be able to feed their families without the immigrant work-force. I KNOW a lot of farmers who wouldn't make a living without them.

But I haven't heard of any European nations having to deal with millions of illegal immigrants entering their nations every year and mooching off of their social services without paying their taxes...

I have no figures to base it on, but i'd be willing to bet that far more illegal immigrants enter the EU each year than the US... definately on a per capita basis if not in total.
Though of course the EU has recently expanded to include a lot of poor eastern european countries so the citizens of those countries are now legally entitled to travel within the EU.

The US has 1 border with mexico. The EU has dozens of borders with Eastern Europe and Africa... so i'd guess we have as many desperate neighbours as you. But i still don't want them to start building walls everywhere thanks.

You aren't the only one. I think the fact that we HAVE a fence is ludicrous, and the idea of building an actual wall makes me want to throw up.


Thank you. The idea of building a wall makes bad memories come back up. Berlin anyone?

Sure, it wasn't exactly to stop people coming in, but such walls are just reactionary solutions that just make you look bad and ends up doing nothing. A wall didn't exactly stop smugglers from getting people out of the USSR or out of North Korea. I don't think it'll stop people from getting in.

According to the study posted by rccar, if amnesty was given, it would automatically increase the drain on the federal government. The author claims that it is due to the low level of education of the immigrants and it lowers their skills. He also says that many illegal immigrants are greatly skilled.

This is quite a moot point and I must say the study only offers a rather short sighted vision of everything if not only an aspect or one side of the coin.

Immigrants who are highly skilled are the ones who do not need to resort to illegal ways to enter the US. Often, it'll be companies who seek them out in their home country to bring them back to the US to work. At other times it'll be just regualr folks, fleeing for political reasons but happen to posess a degree in something. They probably represent only the legal immigrants.

Low-level of education is drain on the economy? Well, the US already has a problem with their own citizens who are in the same situation. What happens to them? We try to give them an education. Now, explain to me how we couldn't do the same to the immigrants?
He also says that the drain is largely due to the children born in the US from the immigrants and their automatic citizenship. Can't these children grow up and become good honest US citizen? A bit optimistic I admit, but it is a possibility. Of course, it's going to be over the course of a long period.

I'd like to get back to the race card. Although I'm not too fond of it, it is necessary to mention that it is largely used in Europe when unemployment rates rise. It casts blame on immigrants and makes them scapegoats for the often angry mobs. Strangely, it coincides with the rise of the far-right in many european countries. Just something I wanted to mention.

This has absolutely nothing to do with race.

It's interesting that I had a socratic on illegal immigration and now this pops up...

but anyway, my general opinion is... we need to fix illegal immigration.

and Mexico.

The reasoning behind the flood and Mexodus is that, well.. you've got your family starving on one side... and about 200 ft on the other side is a job and some food...

Problem 1: Illegal Immigration is Mexico's 2nd highest source of income. Right behind oil.

Something's wrong here.

Problem 2: As someone said, immigration process is extremely ridiculous. It took my brothers about 2-3 years each to get here.

Now... let's go back... your family's starving... and you've put in an application form. But so have 500000000000000000000000 other Mexicans. Waiting, waiting, waiting, but to no avail. You've got to do something or else you'll die. And so will your family.

Welcome to America!

Problem 3: Government does nothing to limit corporations on illegal immigrant abuse. As I stated in another thread: Wal-Mart was fined 11 million for hiring illegal immigrants. They even got off easy because they claimed that "they didn't know" and that it was the people they hired that hired these immigrants, not the corporation itself.

Wal-Mart makes 350 billion in sales profits each year. 11 million is a prick on the index finger.

Solution: Higher government control on hiring of illegal immigrants, a logical guest worker program (visas, etc), ease the immigration process, introduce need-based immigration (similar to college processes - give aid to those who need it first.), and fix Mexico. If not amnesty, give immigrants already here who have shown clear intention on getting jobs and good work and have a clear criminal background a visa or something.

That's my opinion for now, but I'm still not to sure if I follow it completely. More revisions may come.

It would be in the US's interest to help mexico develop a stronger economy. Just a thought but what about some form of free trade zone between mexico and the US where companies could get tax breaks or something and also use the cheap labour of mexico... with some of the tax going to the US and some to Mexico - and the cheap labour being able to stay in mexico?

Sounds to me like there are two "amnesty" plans. The republicans want everyone to leave and then re-apply. The democrats want those that are here to pay a fine and back-taxes and then be allowed to stay.

The second seems more practical. And i suppose you could set requirements like they have to have worked or not committed any crime.

It seems to me that a lot of these people would be admitted anyway under a sensible, FAST worker scheme - so it makes sense to let them stay and make that official providing there are no public interest reasons to not want someone.

There's no realistic way to ship 8 million people out of the country overnight and have them apply for citizenship. :p

I don't care for them paying a fine, as most illegal immigrants are working hard enough as is.

True there is no fast way to ship 8 million people out. But as far as I know that?s not what the current immigration bill calls for, and all Hispanics are protesting that bill right now.

@ET
I never said that we do not benefit from the illegal workforce. But just because it makes it easy for us does not make it right. If you HAD to have money and I was going to pay you 5 dollars an hour for hard labor does that make it okay just cause you need the money? No. I would still be cheating you.

And by the way. If you give them amnesty and make them citizens. Guess what happens!?!? They are now American citizens and entitled to all the rights and privileges that we are! No more cheap labor! And if you leave them here they will keep on sucking off the government. To those that say that people come across because their kids are starving I agree, it?s sad.
But there was a reason we require people to apply to come into the country. It?s so that the economy can adjust.
Now take all the numbers mentioned and more and think about it.

11 million people enter the country illegally in 10 years! They take numerous government programs. And they send a large amount of money back to Mexico. Then in the cities that were just fine, suddenly they have to expand at a crazy big rate. Public schools have to expand to pay for their kids to go to school. Roads have to be built. Hospitals have to give free health care.

Those are a few down sides.

Well on the up side... we get cheap labor. Where we cheat people that hardly have a high school education and don't speak English to do work for a fraction of the cost.

If the Mexican government spent more time fixing its problems and less time *****ing at the U.S. for not putting water stations up in the Arizona desert for illegals then they might have less of a problem

Switching tracks?

Why did the south want to keep its slaves? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if you have to pay a whole bunch of people for their place.

Why do we want cheap labor? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if we have to pay normal wages to these people!

Again does that make it okay? Nope.

Oh yeah another problem I just remembered. (What?s new?)

When an immigrant comes here, and goes into business for himself (lets say air conditioning and electrical) they do not pay for any of the licenses or fees that regular self employed people do (They also do not follow the air conditioning and electrical codes that make it where anyone that has the standard schooling can fix it easy, these codes also help prevent building fires and keep equipment from failing as fast).
These fees are pretty hefty. So what happens? The person that plays by the rules and spent all that money on schooling goes under. While the guy that skips out stays in business. And here you can?t say that these are jobs that no one in America wants, lots of people do these jobs and are very happy (cough)
And no one would say driving professionals out of business with cheap and shoddy work is good.

Why did the south want to keep its slaves? Because it would be extremely hard to stay afloat if you have to pay a whole bunch of people for their place.


So that's why slavery should still be legal? :confused:

So that's why slavery should still be legal? :confused:
The South was s*** for many, many years after the US Civil War that (technically) freed the slaves. I'm sure some people at that point wished it was still legal. I don't think Joe© was saying he wished slavery was still legal (I hope).

In any case, that's not that great of a comparison, the South's economy at the time was reliant on farming, whereas the US's economy now isn't reliant on the jobs illegal immigrants have. In actuality, I'd say the increased number of jobs here in the US for US citizens may actually cancel out any losses Wal-Mart companies here may suffer as a result of paying their employees more.

I was not saying that slavery should be legal (off topic but claifying) I was simply saying that there we have two sources of labor, free/cheap. Many people were/are willing to overlook the fact that the workers are being exploited because it keeps prices down.

Like I said. Its still wrong.

You misconstrue the argument. No one's said that we should continue to exploit them.

We all know that using people without proper pay is wrong.

Nope no one said that. But by saying we need the labor, that is refusing to do anything about the problem.

You're clearly fooling yourself if you don't think that YOU are benefiting directly from the low wages paid to those people doing those jobs. If we eliminated the illegal immigrant work force we can expect to see a drastic increase in the cost of almost EVERYTHING.

Implying what? We should keep paying them low wages and preventing them from becoming more than a permanent underclass?

This is what my cheap labor argument was about for the most part. We know its wrong but are not doing anything about BECAUSE of the fact that we are benefiting.

I hate to only criticize so I will say what I think needs to be done (like anyone cares)

First problem is to fix the boarder. There is no point to deporting people if the boarder is not fixed. They will just keep coming (I heard about one guy that had crossed 20+ times) anyway, hire more boarder security, cameras, fences, walls. Whatever it takes to slow them down.

Then start deporting, its not pretty, its not nice, but we have to wake up and see, THEY BROKE THE LAW! what happens when I I break the law? I go to jail. What happens when they break the law? They get government handouts! Do I suck off government programs? Nope. But hell, my taxes are still going up. Do they suck off government programs? Yes, And guess what? they don't even pay taxes! Double standard eh?
Anyway back to deporting, It won't be fast. It would not be possible to deport all the people, and I think it would be bad to take them all away anyway, just enough to ease the economy and discourage people from coming across.

Start making sure they get good wages. Oh darn we are going to have to pay a lot for our lettuce, well that sucks, but oh well. The moral highground is what counts hmmmm? And I'm sure they can feed their familles with more money eh?