I refuse to take part in any flame baiting in the swamp, because it is obvious how many rap fans reside there. So instead I come to the Senate in hopes that we may have a reasonably intelligent discussion about rap, hip-hop, and the legitimacy of rap as a musical form.

So please, feel free to discuss this.

I myself am a follower of hip-hop culture. Am I a thug? No. Am I a gangsta? No. But I do wear G-Unit T-shirts, wristbands, baggy jeans (that don't sag, Skin :xp:) and classic white adidas shoes with red and black laces. I listen to the music that most hip-hop culture listens to: rap, RnB, etc.

But what comes of rap? Is it a music form? Is it not? I believe it is. Although some purists would say that music requires the use of an instrument. By definition, music is:

The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.

A musical composition.
The written or printed score for such a composition.
Such scores considered as a group: We keep our music in a stack near the piano.
A musical accompaniment.
A particular category or kind of music.
An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds

In which case, rap does fit into the standards for music, albeit not smoothly. The musical accompaniment is a repeated series of drums, backing tracks, and isolated sounds. Emphasis came from complex lyrical wordplay and rhythmic complexity over melody and harmony. Interest was founded more from the variations of timing from the lyrics.

The growth of rap through the 80's and 90's came from Beastie Boys and Run D.M.C. to Tupac and Biggie, to our now current day 50 Cent and Eminem.

Rap from the 80's gathered a great amount of interest. Many rap groups (Public Enemy) became involved politically with their songs.

Then the 90's came. And where our problem begins. The 90's ushered in gangsta rap, a new form which depicted the violent life of urban America. (N.W.A., Tupac). Since Tupac's death, however, many have grown jaded with the rap industry, spouting that no matter what, any post-Tupac rap sucks.

Gangsta rap now is about how much money one may possess, how many cars one may own, or how much jewelry one wears on the teeth. 50 Cent, Lil Jon, and G-Unit most notable for this. Although the lyrics are substandard, only striking a small amount of interest when changing the flow of words, the backing track provides most of the juice for the careers of these rap artists.

Now, gangsta rap now is in a steady state of decline rather than evolution, many rap artists have taken steps away from this cliched genre to help evolve the rap game and revolutionize the way we think about rap as a form of music. (Outkast, Jurassic 5... etc).

And that's where I leave it to you: Discuss rap as a form of music, it's role as an influence to society, and the evolution of the rap game.

Source

"Rap," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2005
http://encarta.msn.com) © 1997-2005 Microsoft Corporation.

Legitimate rap died with Tupac. All it is now is a giant marketting device to get people to buy things because the "rappers" do.

Rap used to be about expression and social commentary. Now it's nothing more than "I got this, I got that. Check out my bitches, check out my ho's"

We need rappers to go back to the days of Flash and the Furious Five, Mos Def, Public Enemy, etc. When rap was a form or expressionism and social commentary. Music that struck people emotionally and rhytmically.

I've always thought of rap as beat-poetry at best. Mind you, I don't classify all the mass-produced teeny-bopping pop that smothers the charts these days as music either.

But if you like beat-poetry, great.

I like some rap, but most of it is either soulless bragging about wealth or violent and/or mysogonistic (sp?) acts. It is indeed going downhill.

I dislike rap because it doesn't sound like music to me. Now I've had to listen to the crap my roommate played loudly on his speakers, and it confirms what I think. I think every rap song I heard him play had some sort of profanity, the word "ho," and references to sex or violence. If that floats your boat, that's your business. I have my tastes, you have yours.

For me, it matters only if you can put enough soul behind the music. You can rap about your current social status if you want, but you must be able to really feel for it, not just because the record company tell you too, or you want to be cool with the kids. And you must ofcourse write your own songs.

Music, as defined by today's society, really has 2 parts:

1 - A catchy bit. Be it a catchy riff, rythmn, sample or baseline.

2 - The look of the singer/band.

Based on those criteria i don't see rap being any less valid an artform than Pop or R&B or rock or punk or dance.

Infact if you listen to a lot of modern rap (50 Cent, Recent Eminem, etc..) it tends to have a dance style sample as a hook... in exactly the same way as dance and techo records do.

Modern rap also tends to have a lot more musical components to it that the stripped down "old-style" rap of the 80s. Its more like R&B or dance, but with rap over the top instead of vocals.

The argument about violence/bad language/sex isn't really that relevant, as you can find plenty of rock bands with violent and expletive filled lyrics. ANd almost all videos, from rock to pop to dance, involve scantilly clad women these days.

I'm not very keen on the whole "gangsta image" that these rap stars seem to cultivate, or the annoying kids in london that try and copy them. BUt i guess the whole "sex drugs and rock'n'roll" image was pretty similar.

One thing i do hate is rap songs that are all about how great the singer is, how much money he has, how many women etc... They just sound like arrogant egomaniacs. But that isn't the fault of the artform itself, just the gangsta culture that has infected part of it.

Although i also agree to some extend with people like AL who have little respect for modern pop music... i do get annoyed by the sort of music snobs (not you al) that will ONLY consider a band if they aren't mainstream, and instantly dissmiss any band as soon as they gain any sort of popular following.

I guess the thing to realise is that music is basically split into two types:

(a) Music that has a meaningful message or real emotional content.

(b) Music that is entirely designed to be catchy and then forgetable.

Once i realised this i was better able to appreciate disposable pop. I'd hear it around, enjoy the catchy hook and then istantly forget it. Rather than get angry that it wasn't ABOUT anything or had no really emotion behind it.

Most modern rap has become group B, and is in the same group as Britney and other catchy but disposible tunes.

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Myself, i'm not a huge fan of rap, though i won't change the channel if a catchy tune comes on. This is aminly due to not liking the gangsta "i'm great" style.
I do appreciate some of the old run-dmc, public enemy, beastie boys and eminem stuff though. Mainly because it is type A music, which tends to stay with you longer.

Rap is a form of expressing controversial subjects without getting slammed because you have all your "homies" to abck you up.:p

I think rap shoild follow what great music Vanilla Ice did for the community....:D

But seriously when I listen to rap I follow the beat instead of paying attention to the lyrics.

The sad irony is, that beat usually isn't original music.

I'm a big fan of Jazz and Blues, two genres that are the progenitors of Hip-Hopp and Rapp.

The sad irony is, that beat usually isn't original music.

True.


Rock is the way I go towards music. Preferably Metallica or Guns N' Roses.

Originally posted by SkinWalker
The sad irony is, that beat usually isn't original music.

Usually it is, its just that the elements it is made up from aren't original.

But then most rock songs use the exact same beat in the background anyway... :D

Discussion of whether 'rap/hip-hop' is *a musical form* is pretty much ... um ... stupid. It is music - whether or not anyone likes it is another matter.

The core of the issue is where it falls on what I describe as the 'Product->Entertainment->Art' scale.

On that scale, something that is manufactured purely to be sold - like Milli Vanilli or the Monkees - is Product. Something made as a purely artistic endeavor - like John Cage's 4'33 - is Art. Most everything else is somewhere in between.

So where did rap come from, where is it now, and where is it going? First, I believe that most popular music forms have elements that span from pure Product to ~75% on the scale (half-way between Entertainment and Art) - which means that I believe that no popular form is a wholly Artistic endeavor.

But most popular forms use both lyrical and musical methods of expression. So where does Rap fall in all of this?

Musically, it is hard to argue that Rap / Hip-Hop is anything but derivative and simplistic - that doesn't mean it isn't interesting or compelling, just that there isn't any 'statement' being made musically, just a 'hook'.

So anything that would compel Rap to go beyond 50% (pure entertainment) must be in the lyrics. I'll take four examples I have on my iPod:
- Black Sheep - Hoes We Knows
- Public Enemy - Fight the Power
- Sir Mix a lot - Baby Got Back
- Beastie Boys - Ch-check it out

I like the musical side of Black Sheep, right up there with Tribe Called Quest. But they basically sing about their penises and doin' hoes ... which I why I chose that as an example (rather than 'the Choice is yours') This song is 50% of why people hate rap - utter disrespect for women and over-egomania and self-obsession.

Public Enemy's song from Do the Right Thing (unlike NWA's Straight Outta Compton) has only a few swears, yet is powerful and tense. It makes a statement - not all that profound, really, but powerful and concise.

Baby Got Back ... what can you say, the guy likes big butts ... and so does every kid who hears the song (or the clips in Shrek or Shark Tale).

Beastie Boys had a lot of MTV play (that was nearly 20 years ago ... when they played music) with 'Fight for your right' ... but now they are a fairly generic liberal political agenda - but done very well with tight musical integration.

None of this is poetry, but much of it is as good as most pop and rock songs out there. The music is varied and interesting - if still derivative and simple. I think the 'native tongues' groups with jazz derivations had the most interesting harmonic basis, which also lended some interesting rhythmic platforms, making most rap and hip-hip today sound bland and rhythmically static by comparison.

Do I think that the pop-ification has broadened the 'product' side of rap? Definitely - just like it does for any popular musical form. Grunge, once so 'revolutionary', became product ... as did punk, arena rock, clam rock, heavy metal, flower power, and on and on and on ...
Mike