Been watching you lot for a looongo time... lurking in the shadows of GB.com... waiting for my moment... bwhaahahahahhaah.... ahem.. :D

Yes it was fun watching Vostok's support Wither away, Subtract Windu and Puzzlebox and the playing firled is now most even.

Lol Windu never supported Vostok at the best of times. Puzzlebox was arrogant and I don't think he agreed with anyone. Just these forums are bigger and its hard for Vostok to brainwash people into believing his purist garbage. Same with your Truism crap too Viceroy.

*JEDI SIGHTING*
Well a Jedi statue anyways. In one of the screens I saw a Jedi statue so this could mean we have forceusers in the RTS.

Alright, let's keep to the topic and not discuss who's wrong and who's right about Star Wars as you all will be right and wrong at one point in the argument. ;)

Reminder what the topic is about: Jedi: What role will they play if any!!
within the game EaW

That jedi statue is a recurring motif in LA games. I think it's almost becoming an in-joke! I don't think it has any bearing on what role jedi will play in the game.

I don't think they'll really use the force, probably units wtih high, regenerating, HP and attack power like in force commander (or another SW RTS which name I forgot). As a role rather a powerful unit in the middle of a semi-large army. I wouldn't want to send it alone in case the enemies focus firepower and kill the precious jedi. Something like a monk in prevous games: you make sure they don't attract much attention and keep em with armies

Originally posted by lonepadawan
Eh... star wars purism or whatnot is another word for overanalyzing entertainment?

Star Wars is space myth man! It's not about numbers! "The balance" is a slightly more romantic concept than simply 1 jedi 1 sith or anything..
The numbers game is a rough approximation, but I base my argument on the potential balance of the respective Jedi/Sith power. Obviously if there were 2 Jedi and 2 Sith and the Sith were Palpatine and Vader at the height of their power while the Jedi were both padawans, then there wouldn't be any balance.

So lets consider... starting with the masters in the old trilogy we have Yoda and Palpatine. Who's the more powerful entity? Who's to say (other than Lucas) really? Some will argue one way while some will argue the other. I'll simplify the argument and consider them approximately equal.

That leaves us with with Vader and Obiwan. We know from Obiwan's own mouth that Vader has possibly the most raw power given the midiclorian count. In the time of Attack of the Clones, I'd give the edge to Obiwan given his experience, but Vader gained quite a bit of experience fighting in the Clone Wars and later hunting down Jedi. By the time of their meeting, I'd throw the power edge to Vader. Given that other hidden Jedi (if any) probably aren't using their powers (or if they are, only minimally) to avoid detection, Vader's edge over Obiwan has shifted the balance away from the Jedi and over to the Sith. This balance shift intensifies with Obiwan's death (yes, I know, Obiwan mentions becoming more powerful than Vader can imagine, but that's open to another interpretation that I don't have the time to go into at the moment). So, that leaves us with Yoda and a limitedly trained Luke vs Palpatine and Vader.

Yoda dies through natural causes throwing the balance of power even more in favor of the Sith, especially given Luke's emersion into the gray area. Vader rebalances the power by sacrificing himself to eliminate Palpatine, leaving only Luke in his relative balance (and subsequently, the Force as well.) That a bit more romantic for you? :)

Kryllith

OFF TOPIC: Viceroy, yes that is what Windu implies, but don't forget I'm assuming that the Jedi are interpreting the prophecy incorrectly. They obviously aren't interpreting it the same way I am or they wouldn't be too keen on the fact Anakin will kill nearly all of them.

Kryllith's description gave me an idea: Lucas has always said Obi-Wan's becoming one with the Force while Qui-Gon didn't has something to do with his line "I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." Perhaps this power comes from the fact the Force is again brought out of balance? That's just speculation of course.

Anyway...

ON TOPIC: If heroes worked similarly to the way they do in Battle For Middle Earth, it would be best to limit Jedi to just being the heroes (Vader, Luke, etc). Certainly having access to more than just these Jedi would not work all that well considering the game is restricted to the Civil War Era.

I hope you don't hold up the heroes in BFME as the epitome of balance:p

Because they're certainly not that I can tell you now. :D

I think Luke and Vader should be campaign units and shouldn't be in battle, Heroes in Star Wars are for Campaigns, however we could have some different heroes like Kyle Katarn and Captain Page for the rebellion both Commando heroes so this would help the rebellion in their line of commando missions.

The Empire could get General Veersand perhaps a Moff, the Moff could work similar to an AoM Pharoh except him being near whatever works as resource gatherers to work faster or being in the equivalent of a command center increasing line of sight and making all building work better.

Vader has the edge in Episode 3 because he took the faster/easier way and went to the darkside to get the most power as quickly as he could. Where as the Lightside have a whole lifetime to get there emotions balanced and to channel them without resorting to using anger as a weapon.

I hope the campaigns are more story based then the BFME ones I found every mission in the campaigns every generic and after the first 5 missions it started to get very boring.

I kinda liked the campaigns in BFME.

The regular missions are a bit boring after a while but the ones where you control heroes or the big battles are quite fun.

The Black Gate was hell but it was a lot of fun.

Well I never said the BFME heroes were well balanced, I am yet to play the game so I wouldn't know. However I do like the idea that the game almost revolves around them.

As I've said in the past, I would like to see buildable heroes in a Star Wars RTS for the simple reason that characters and their actions are such an important part of the movies. Thematically speaking, the movies show that the actions of a single character can have consequences that alter the entire Galaxy, so having a significant presence in a game emulating the movies seems a logical extension of this theme.

The only thing heroes provide in an RTS is that they can kill more units then most regular units before they die and they are also focus fire targets.

BFME revolves around the armies more than the heroes and capturing different parts of Middle-Earth.

there prob gonna do what they did in rebellion, theres commanders/ admirals etc for each ship/fleet maybe even add a hero to a fighter squad, and what they'll do is improve the effeciency and performance of the ships their commanding.

also maybe jedis can do what assassins did in rebellion and do missions and what not, fight vader who knows, add a boast to troops of the ground and command.

Jedi could be used effectively in this game as hero units. Or possibly hidden characters that if found depending on your current "point status", a player could ask to join there army. This would fit more with the fact that Jedi are hiding from everyone, and thaht there are not Rebels or serve the Empire.

If used in combat, there should be a definate price to pay for the player since during this time the Jedi are being hunted to oblivion.

This in my opinion is the best way to balance theuse of Jedi in this game. At any rate, just to satisfy purists, in multiplayer there should be a Jedi on/off button ;)

OT: For all those who think the whole point of the chosen one and bringing balance is 2 sith, 2 jedi... EP3 SPOILERS





EPISODE II TERNIAN REPORT: It Is Your Destiny...

Febuary 1 2005

"...Only now, at the end, do you understand." Emperor Palpatine, Return of the Jedi

When Anakin arrives at the window of the private office, he can see only bodies and Fisto's head. He cuts through the glass and steps inside. Passing through the short corridor, he enters the Chancellors public office, where Palpatine duels with Master Windu.

Anakin stands by and watches the duel in the shadows.

The battling Mace cuts a hole in the window of the office, planning to push Sidious out, but that does not work initially. They fight again, slowly moving towards the window. They eventually end up outside the office, on the narrow ledge of the Republic Executive Office. The rain continues to fall.

After intense fighting, Mace cuts Palpatine's saber in half. The Sith suddenly turns and addresses Anakin who can now be seen in the office.

"You see? Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?" he says. Mace continues his stare at the Chancellor.

Suddenly, just when Mace is about to strike down and destroy the Sith, Palpatine unleashes his power and lightning strikes from his hand. His face ages dramaticially into an aged old man before the Jedi's eyes.

"FOOL!" he exclaims.

Mace blocks the lightning with his blade but this is a hard moment for both combatants as they both begin to call to Anakin. Anakin now stands at Mace's shoulder, unsure what to do: Sidious wants him to kill the traitor but the Jedi Master orders him to kill the Sith and fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One.

At last, Palpatine collapses and begs for mercy from Mace. Mace, however, does not accept it. He moves for a final blow and then...

"Wait!..." cries Anakin.

You may go into denial if you want. But this is NOT fake. I suppose you could come up with "Mace isn't a Star Wars purist... he doesn't know the truth" but it does support what George Lucas (you know... the one who created Star Wars... I suppose he's not a purist either) says.. that killing Palpatine is fulfilling his destiny as the chosen one...?

That spoiler proves nothing, it just shows what Mace thinks is bringing balance back to the force by destroying the last Sith. I hardly call no Sith and hundreds of Jedi balanced...

Exactly. I didn't read the spoiler as I took a vow not to, but as I've said before it is the fact that the Jedi Council misinterpret the prophecy that makes things interesting.

If they really believed the prophecy meant that Anakin would kill all but two Jedi, I somehow don't think they would have been so eager to train him.

Jedi disguise themselves as storm troopers
Oh please! Just because one Jedi did it, they all should?! That's like saying that all must die trough letting their guard down as that's how Obi Wan died. Or that the only way to kill a Sith is to throw him down a hole like they did with Palpatine and Maul. Or that every X-Wing should have a loose s-foil because Luke's X-Wing's s-foil came loose. Give me a break.

Wrong time period
No, really, let's add Jedi. Let's add Droideka to the Rebels as well, and Naboo Security forces to the Imperials. And don't forget to give the Alliance Faamba Shield Generator "dinosaurs". Right, the Gungans were the ones to have them, but screw accuracy :rolleyes: .

I think Luke and Vader should be campaign units and shouldn't be in battle, Heroes in Star Wars are for Campaigns, however we could have some different heroes like Kyle Katarn and Captain Page for the rebellion both Commando heroes so this would help the rebellion in their line of commando missions.
I'm all for special infantry. Heroes? No. Far too rare, there's only one of each of those characters:p . Thus, "recruiting" Luke and resurrecting him when he dies is utterly silly.

Special infantry, in my opinion, should consist of stuff like generals, commanders, etc. that could be attached to groups (including vehicles).

Jedi could be used effectively in this game as hero units. Or possibly hidden characters that if found depending on your current "point status", a player could ask to join there army. This would fit more with the fact that Jedi are hiding from everyone, and thaht there are not Rebels or serve the Empire.
But it doesn't change the fact that they are dead.

Nothing in the books, comics, or movies suggest that other Jedi were alive at the time. In fact, Obi-Wan and Yoda referred to Luke and Leia as the two last ones beside themselves. If there were other Jedi, they would know.

Short and easy
1. There were no Jedi in that time period except for Luke, Leia, Yoda, and Obi-Wan (screw you, Lukeiamyourdad:p).
2. A Star Wars game, contrary to popular belief, does not have to have Jedi. Galactic Conquest (www.galactic-conquest.net) has none, and it rules, in part for that reason. Battlefront has Jedi, and they greatly reduce the game. Galaxies has Jedi, and they greatly reduce the game.
3. Jedi won't add anything to the game. Want a leader unit that makes your troops fight better? Recruit high-ranking officers. Want a healing unit? Er.. heard about medics? Want a scout unit? Recruit a recon unit. Want a great fighter? Recruit good troops or use your army so that it levels up.

No Jedi. Please. They have absolutely no place in a game like Empire at War.

Reminder what the topic is about : Jedi: What role will they play, if any!
None, except as fighters in campaigns.

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
No, really, let's add Jedi. Let's add Droideka to the Rebels as well, and Naboo Security forces to the Imperials. And don't forget to give the Alliance Faamba Shield Generator "dinosaurs". Right, the Gungans were the ones to have them, but screw accuracy :rolleyes:

So I am sure that after this little speech and your obvious love for Galactic Conquest, that you approve of them adding Republic Gunships for the Rebels right? ;)

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle
Nothing in the books, comics, or movies suggest that other Jedi were alive at the time. In fact, Obi-Wan and Yoda referred to Luke and Lei as the two last ones beside themselves. If there were other Jedi, they would know.

Short and easy
1. There were no Jedi in that time period.

A bit of a contradiction here is there?

ON-TOPIC:

The way I see it, if this game had the Republic and Confederacy, Jedi would be essential to the game because of their huge role in the PT and CW. However, as it is only half a game, and due to it being set in the old inferior half (OT) there should be no Jedi in this game, with the exception of heroes (Yoda, Obi, Luke, Vader). These heroes would play an important role in the events leading up to Ep4 (Yoda, Vader, Obi) and also after (Luke, Vader) in terms of actually fighting and whatnot. Aside from that, I say no Jedi.

OFF-TOPIC:

Most people seem to think that the force being in blanace is the number of Jedi vs the number of Sith, but it isn't. I mean really, why then would Mace Windu talk about bringing the force back into balance while at the same time the Jedi think the Sith are extinct? Certainly, it also does not make sense for the Jedi to train a boy for the sole purpose of killing almost all of them.

I'm not going to pretend I know what they mean, but the way I see it, the first step to figuring out what the imbalance is, is figuring out what is not in balance with regards to the force.

So I am sure that after this little speech and your obvious love for Galactic Conquest, that you approve of them adding Republic Gunships for the Rebels right?
Touche :D . To my defence, I can at least say I was against gunships in GC when I first found out that they were in;) .

Good one, though.

A bit of a contradiction here is there?
Why you old nit-picking... Stop it or I shall never stare at your avatar again :mad:!
Corrected:).

However, as it is only half a game, and due to it being set in the old inferior half (OT)
Someone doesn't have high thoughts of Ep 4-6 for some reason...:p

No less of an authority than Lucas himself has said Balance is brought when the Sith are destroyed because they are like a cancer.

The Sith are never truely destroyed. As long as Jedi exist Sith will exist.

In Galactic Battlegrounds, the use of Jedi Temples and Sith Temples were highly unrealistic. But hey, so was the whole game. So I wouldn't mind a Jedi and Sith Temple. Adds some flavor unless you're going for 100% realistic game. Then you'd have to scrap them.