To all who've contributed to this mod so far: WOW!
I've devoted numerous hours of playing time to test out multiplayer, and then I only focused on duels, and the saber battles look dramatically more movie like than default JKJA. Nice work indeed. The best dueling system yet.
This is going to be a strange review, since I still have a number of questions in regards to what’s actually going on during game play, and this is in spite of all the hours of playing it. I wish that there was a more detailed write up in regards to the new saber dueling system, one that was accompanied with screenshots of what’s what.
Before I go into delivering suggestions, I think it’d only be fair for me to first describe my impressions of what’s going on. If my observations are errant, then a more knowledgeable reader of this review should hopefully understand some of the conclusions that I came to. Certainly no offense is meant.
MY OBSERVATIONS
----What the New HUD Conveys & Its Consequences----
Up in the left hand corner of the screen is a new meter that monitors how much “dodging” energy one has left during the coarse of a duel. Whenever a dodge is attempted, the meter declines by about 20% of a full energy reserve. Whenever the dodging energy reserve gets dangerously low, a generic “panic alarm” sound effect is played. This “panic alarm” can only be heard by the player who is actually suffering from near/total exhaustion of the dodging energy. Whenever this energy reserve reaches 0, odds are quite high that a “hit” will result in ACTUAL damage being delivered to the exhausted target’s body.
The lower right hand corner meter no longer simply monitors Force energy in regards to using Force powers and specialized saber moves/katas. While it DOES measure the drainage of using Force powers directly, it also measures the Force depletion that occurs EVERY time a saber is swung. Whenever the Force/saber swing energy source reaches 10 or lower, a generic “panic alarm” sound effect is played until energy reserves recover. Whenever this energy reserve reaches 0, the exhausted dueler’s swings with the saber are significantly slowed.
I hope that these observations are accurate, because they’re what I’m basing all of my feedback on.
*WHAT I ENJOY ABOUT THIS SYSTEM
The HUD does a very good job of encapsulating the heart of OJP’s changes to the saber combat system. Managing Dodging, Force/Saber energy is now critical to winning a duel, and it makes dueling more of a “thinking man’s” game. These alterations go a LONG way towards heightening the sense of urgency, and certainly makes the game feel/look far more cinematic than any other saber combat system implemented in any game before.
*SUGGESTIONS
----Shift the burden of defense from Force Dodges to Force Parries----
Even when one is active in trying to parry incoming attacks, the ratio of Force Dodges to parries is too strongly skewed in favor of the Force Dodges (hereafter referred to as F Dodging). The dodges are so numerous as to take away from the cinematic feel that the rest of the mod nicely acquires. The cinematic quality is also dampened by the “dodge sniper shot” sound effect that’s played EVERY time a F. Dodge is made. If the volume for this sound effect could be greatly reduced, or, perhaps even better, done away with entirely, its reduction/removal would go a long way in ramping up one’s immersion in the mod’s other cinematic qualities. I even feel that it’d be safe to do away with the sound effect altogether, as it’s completely obvious VISUALLY whenever the F. Dodge is being attempted by any of the players onscreen.
I would also strongly consider reduce the chances of a F. Dodge being made in favor of elevating the chances that a saber parry is made. To give visual indicators to the players that a “Force Parry” is being made (versus the natural collision of sabers knocking together because of genuine hit detection, or due to a player actively engaging his parry button), different kinds of saber clashes can be assigned to different kinds of parries. For example, genuine hit detection collisions of sabers could result in a small flash, without any sparks or smoke, yet having a small, quick clash sound effect. Parries that are made because one of the duelers is SEEKING to parry an attack will result in a brighter flash with some sparks being scattered around, and it would generate a substantially beefier sounding clash sound. And whenever either of the two preceding parries “fails,” the dueling system calls upon a Jedi’s fatuity with the Force to help “guide” his saber fighting abilities into a successful defense: the Force Parry (aka “F. Parry”). For all intents and purposes, the F. Parry would substantially “reduce” the need for a F. Dodge, and a successful F. Parry would result in one of those spectacular saber clashes we’ve seen in the films: a VERY bright flash accompanied with a shower of sparks and clouds of ozone-filled smoke. And of course, it would produce the most audacious of hit sound effects. ; )
The advantages of diverting the defense burden from F. Dodge to F. Parry are many. The duels would certainly look a lot more like the ones from the films, which have VERY few missed swings, but do have a TON of successful parries. F. Dodges also have a nasty habit of sending the player into an unpredictable direction, like right off of a narrow bridge or catwalk that one would never try to CONSCUOUSLY roll out of. By creating different types of saber hit effects, a good solid visual and audio indicator would be given to the players whether or not they’re dealing “damage” to their opponent’s Force Defense Reserves.
When F. Dodges are executed, I highly suggest that the odds of a “roll-dodge” being used should be GREATLY reduced, since it’s fairly common to roll right off of a bridge or ledge when a roll-dodge is executed. NOT a fun way to die, especially if one was besting the opponent when the automatic roll dodge throws one right into a bottomless pit. In regards to how dodges are carried out in the game, it’s probably good to shorten the area traversed during a roll-dodge. It just looks like the roller is traveling an impossibly long distance in a very short period of time. If the distance rolled was cut by half, one could still avoid the saber attack, and yet maintain a long enough roll to make it look dramatic and believable.
----Simplify the Energy Gauges----
I feel that it may be quite possible to do away with the F. Dodge gauge by folding it into the Force/Saber energy gauge. Since the player CAN exert CONSCOUS control over parrying/dodging on his own, I would designate any “fortuitous” parry or dodge as being the result of one’s attunement to the Ways of the Force, and thus, these Force-led defenses are paid out of the pool of Force energy. This meter could be located as the outer arc on the lower right gauge, and one could also assign another meter on an inner arc, and I’d suggest that this meter would measure the amount of PHYSICAL stamina the dueler has left. This pool of energy is devoted towards all physical movements such as normal jumps, normal saber swings, and running. The word “normal” here, meaning “free of any Force energy use.”
SABER COMBAT
*WHAT I ENJOY ABOUT THIS SYSTEM
A swing can be halted at any point, and if done quickly enough after it comes to a stop, the dueler may then resume the rest of the swing. This “pausing” of the animation allows for many natural looking saber holding positions, and if left idle long enough, the dueler then reestablishes the form of whatever stance he’s using. The ability to halt a swing at any point allows for the capability to fake out (aka “feint”) the opponent, something we’ve seen in the films, particularly when Obi-Wan & Qui-Gon were dueling Maul in the multi-tiered power assembly area on Naboo. The ability to CONSCIOUSLY attempt to parry an incoming attack is also a very nice feature, and I deeply appreciate the removal of katas which aren’t cinematic at all. All these adjustments lead to a duel where victors are much more clearly defined by ACTUAL skill, and not random happenstance. Dueling with OJP’s system is HIGHLY addictive. I only wish it were integrated with FM 3…
*SUGGESTIONS
----Needs Decapitations----
Um, just like the subtitle says. Flying body parts are cinematic, so they should be in the mod.
----SFX Sabers----
This OJB mod caused numerous problems in the way the dueling system operated. It interfered in the models’ animations by making them choppy. Saber trails were so minimal as to not even look like the ones in the films, although I liked SFX’s hues, rounded saber tip, and glowing halo more than the ones that are currently in OJP. Maybe SFX Sabers didn’t work well for me because the pk3 needed to placed elsewhere in JA’s structure (I placed it within GameData/ojpenhanced; I don’t know, since the file wasn’t accompanied by a Read Me, and I couldn’t locate specifics on the Forums. As it stands right now, I like OJP best without having SFX Sabers installed.
----Saber Swings Too Slow----
Animations should show that the greatest amount of time that is committed to making a swing is in “preparing” the blade to be swung. More time should be devoted to showing the dueler putting his arms, torso, and legs into position to gather the strength he needs to commit his attack, but the actual attack should be QUITE quick.
----Hit Detection Needs More Accuracy----
Without a doubt, hit detection is far better in OJP than in default JA, but it still needs work. Several times I’ve witnessed combatants pass their sabers right through the middle of each other’s bodies, resulting in no physical or Force effects. Oftentimes, the idle sabers of duelists touch to no effect.
----Saber Stances Assignable to Keys----
Yup, just what the subtitle says. I’ve also noticed that I have to press my third mouse button TWICE in order to rotate to the next stance. That waste of time could get someone killed.
----Restructure the Stances----
Stances are still grounded on determining the speed of the saber swing, and I presume that the stance also determines the amount of damage that is delivered in a fashion that’s similar to default JA. I’ve never understood the logic behind Raven’s decisions to structure the stances the way they did, and I would abandon it completely.
I found a lot of inspiration from your mod, as it pretty closely approximates how I interpret saber combat working in the films. Perhaps the stances could be broken down so that they primarily determine the MAXIMUM damage and speed of a saber’s slash by defining the maximum BREADTH of the swing’s ARC. The wider the swing, the more time it would take to prepare the arm for the directed swing, BUT when the swing is executed, its “saber blow through/knock aside” power would be proportional to the distance the saber TRAVELLED withOUT being interrupted. Its speed would also be greatest near the end of its arc, as it’ll have more energy directed into it from the dueler’s muscles. The longer the arc of a saber’s swing, the more stamina it would demand for its execution. I feel that this approach is completely proportional, logical, and cinematic. I’ve supplied a few example stances immediately below for consideration…
STANCE 1, SMALL is largely made up of the kinds of shorter chops and swings we’ve seen in the film, and I’d even suggest that MOST of the swings made in the films are made up primarily of the shorter chops. The preparing time for these kinds of swings is relatively short, since the arms aren’t trying to gather up a lot of energy, but when the swings are delivered, it’s with moderate speed, and the likelihood of it blowing through/knocking aside an opponent’s saber upon contact are quite minimal. Please note that after studying the films that even though the shorter chops LOOK like they’re being delivered more quickly than other wider swings, the REALITY is that their delivery speed is SLOWER than the wider swings, because there is LESS energy put into them. So why do they LOOK “faster” than a wider swing? It’s because the dueler’s arm doesn’t have to invest as much TIME in preparing for the delivering of the shorter chop. MORE chops are delivered in less time than WIDER swings, but they are NOT traveling with more SPEED or FORCE. Another advantage to using Stance 1 is that the dueler is leaving a smaller window of opportunity for his opponent to attack him since the arms/torso are not being significantly wound back (leaving an opening) to prepare the attack. However, it takes less energy to parry/dodge a Stance 1 chop, since the swing has less energy, and since it’s not traveling in a wide arc, one has only to move their body a little to dodge it. A chop is simply the easiest form of attack to defend against, but it is also the one stance that allows for the easiest segue from offense to defense. If one commences an attack with Stance 1, and suddenly feels the need to parry the opponent’s attack, the negative modifier is quite small since the energy invested in the motion of the offensive move is low, thus it’s fairly easy to redirect one’s saber to block an attack. I imagine that the dueler’s posture to reflect that this stance is being used should be one where the legs are slightly bent, with the saber vertically centered and angled forward.
STANCE 2, WIDER is mostly made up of swings who’s breadth is from one elbow to the other. These take more time to prepare for than the shorter chops found in Stance 1, BUT upon execution they travel more quickly and with more force than what’s achievable in the first stance, thus ensuring a greater chance of blow through or knock back of the opponent’s saber to meet the target’s body. However, Stance 2 users are leaving themselves more open to an attack, because the arms/torso have to be wound back to prepare for the swing’s delivery. It’s also more costly than a Stance 1 chop to redirect one’s energies from an attack to a parry, since more energy and effort have been committed to the assault. To a Stance 2 dueler’s advantage is the fact that parrying a Stance 2 attack requires more energy, and the target’s body has to move more in order to dodge its wider arc, thus also requiring more energy than what’s required to dodge a Stance 1 chop. I imagine that the dueler’s posture to reflect that this stance is being used should be one where the legs are moderately bent, arms are closer to the body than with Stance 1, with the saber vertically centered and with the blade angled nearly straight up.
STANCE 3, WIDEST is entirely made up of swings where the arms, torso, and even the entire body is wound up to execute a swing that covers an enormous amount of area with great speed and tremendous strength. It has the highest odds of blowing through/knocking aside an opponent’s saber, and it requires the target to give up a great deal of energy in order to parry it. The opponent also has to move his body significantly if he hopes to escape this attack’s wide breadth, and thus this kind of dodge requires the most energy from the target’s reserves. The flipside to this devastating attack is that its preparation time is the longest of the three stances available, which means its user is quite vulnerable to attacks from his opponent. A Stance 3 attack is also the costliest to redirect into a parry. I imagine that the dueler’s posture to reflect that this stance is being used should be one where the legs are moderately bent, arms are close to the right side of the body, with the hips and torso having a rightward bearing, and the blade is angled straight up.
What’s important to emphasize is that no matter which stance is used, the ACTUAL odds of it blowing through/knocking aside an enemy’s saber to allow for contact with the target’s body is based on the ACTUAL distance traveled by the saber. If a super charged Stance 3 attack is parried EARLY in its execution, then the odds of it blowing through the target’s saber is MUCH less than if the parry was attempted near the END of that swing’s arc and this is simply due to the fact that it’s had more TIME to receive more energy from its holder’s body. Likewise, pausing mid-swing, then RESUMING it does NOT deliver the same amount of energy than if that swing had been delivered without interruption.
It’s critical to keep in mind that the AMOUNT of DAMAGE a saber delivers is ALWAYS the same. The formula for the damage it generates is grounded on (1) the length of TIME the saber spends inside a target, and (2) the AMOUNT of blade CONTACT with the target’s body. Thus the PRIMARY purpose of selecting a stance is based upon how deeply and how lengthily one hopes to bury their saber into their target’s tissues. Each body part can absorb “x” amount of damage before its crippled/lopped off. The wider the breadth of a saber’s swing, the greater the ODDS are of plowing through an enemy’s saber so that the blade makes contact to do actual harm.
As you can see, I’m endeavoring to structure a system that is completely PROPORTIONAL and cinematic in every way. It may even be possible to structure the duels so that the ONE solid hit that lands on the target is the one that finishes the match, just as in the films. Players would be rewarded throughout the match for successful “hits” by witnessing the indicators that their opponents are being eroded/exhausted away whenever a “depleting effect” (such as when an ozone cloud’s released for a Force assisted parry) is manifested for Force/Stamina draining attacks. The BEST duelers will have to be SMART and SKILLFUL ones.
----Pausing Saber Movements Mid-Swing----
I think that it would be wise to include a “stance reset” key for those opportunities when one does NOT want to resume an attack that was paused mid-swing. As the system stands right now, there’s a 1.5-2 second delay where the saber is “frozen” in the paused position. There are likely times when a player wants to forfeit the option to swing on, and regain posture quickly to pursue other options.
----Saber Clash Effects----
If the system is setup so that it’s known that every time someone swings, parries, or sprints that said actions sap stamina, then in my mind, the most critical of available saber clash effects are the ones that actually indicate something substantial is going on. I suggest that whenever the Force comes into play to assist in the Jedi’s parry, that this type of parry be the only one associated with creating smoke. Most of the saber duels we’ve seen in the film don’t generate smoke at all, except on rare occasions. The other clash effects could be determined by how much TOTAL strength was delivered into the clash, and this is determined by combining how far BOTH sabers traveled uninterrupted before colliding with each other. The larger the total distance traveled by the sabers, then the larger the flash and the more sparks are generated. But again, I strongly feel that only Force assisted parries should be the ones that generate the ozone cloud.
*FATIGUE, SABER STYLES & COMBAT EFFECTS
I’m sure that a number of these suggestions have already been implemented, but I’d still like to comment on them.
----Saber Styles & Fatigue----
“Specialty” saber styles such as wielding a lightstaff, or dueling with two single sabers should result in higher fatigue costs. These combatants have elected to double their killing coverage, so this requires them to carry twice the weight, and also burdens them with calculating/managing twice the combat factors when using these especially deadly saber styles.
----The Onset of Force Exhaustion----
When Force energy has been reduced to 10 or lower, the dueler’s Force assisted parrying/dodging suffers. The odds of these actions taking effect and being successful plummets the closer to zero the dueler gets. At zero, these Force assisted capabilities are completely non-functional, thus leaving the dueler in a most precarious position, especially if he’s physically exhausted, which is likely to be the case.
----The Onset of Physical Exhaustion----
When one’s stamina has reached a level of 10 or lower, one’s abilities become hampered with the effects of growing tired. Preparing and executing an attack takes longer, and becomes more inaccurate. It becomes more difficult to establish a successful parry, increasing the odds that the Force will have to be “called upon” in an attempt to save one’s life, either by a Force assisted parry or dodge. Jumping a normal height becomes impossible, and thus Force Jump is more likely to be activated. These debilitating effects accumulate as one gets closer to zero. At zero, one’s physical capabilities become absolutely sluggish, and one’s accuracy becomes abysmal. It’s time to run away and recoup one’s strength, in the unlikely event that the opponent allows such a merciful event to occur.
*BOTS
----Bots Sprint to First Encounter----
Many dueling maps are quite large. It’d be nice if they sprinted towards the target to within a distance of 15 feet or so, as that would shorten the time that it would take for combat to actually occur.
----Bots are More Effective Using New Dueling System----
Subtitle says it all.
*QUESTIONS
(1) Is there a way to mate OJP with FM 3? Visually, I would love to have the two merged in some way. Wow. That’d be heaven.
(2) Alright, this question’s embarrassing. Exactly how do I use melee attacks?
I guess you could call this review and analysis my Magna Opus. It took me several hours to write this thing, but I’ve enjoyed myself so much, and I’m so excited by its possibilities, that I couldn’t stop thinking or typing. My wife’s going to kill me. lol
I’ll be looking forward to whatever feedback this write up generates, and I’ll be looking even more forward towards the other delicious treats the OJP team has cooking up! Yummy!!!
If there’s ever the opportunity for me to get on a beta testing team, I’d love to join! As you can see, I’m a pretty thorough kind of guy, so if you want detailed and specific commentary, you know who to call. I’m sure that Azymn (the developer of FM 3) would be more than happy to recommend me. He better!
Yours!
:)
First,
Thanks Rad Blackrose for the warm comment regarding my proposal for
modifying dueling as we know it.
Second, I finally figured out how to enable melee combat
in the game.
And third, I've more feedback and recommendations listed
below.
*REGARDING THE SABER STANCES THAT I'VE DETAILED IN THIS
THREAD's 1st POST
----Players Can Develop Own Styles----
I forgot to mention one other observation of the system I
spelled out above. I think that one of its attractive
features is that it's going to allow players to really
develop their own fighting styles.
This will be achievable by the fact that they'll be able
to control just how far each swing is delivered towards
the target. The stances primary purpose is to define the
maximum breadth of each swing along with the power and
speed that's behind it. NONE of the stances limits the
MINIMUM breadth of each swing, and since the swing's
power and speed is ultimately linked to how far the blade
actually traveled before stopping, players will have
active avenues in defining for themselves just how far
they want to carry out each swing. Players could
intentionally stop short on swings simply so that they
could recover more quickly for the next attack. Thus
players will have a significant degree of control of how
OFTEN a certain type of swing is delivered to their
target.
----Stances will Allow for a Greater Degree of Player
Control (I have an illustration ready to post, but can't figure out how to do it)----
Players will be able to confidently rely on the degree of
control they'll be able to exert with any one stance.
For example, those players who want to deliver a quick
succession of chops to a closely defined region will be
able to choose Stance 1. They won't ever have to worry
about "over swinging" the target, because Stance 1's
maximum breadth of swing is no wider than the player's
shoulders. Holding down the Strafe Right key while in
this stance will NOT result in a swing that has the
player pivoting all the way around on his heals so that
his bare back is exposed to the enemy.
Players who desire more power and speed behind their
attack could elect to choose Stance 2, and even here,
they'll be confident that holding down a strafe key won't
result in a "turn on heals" spin attack. This stance's
maximum arc is as wide as bringing the hands up to the
shoulders.
And finally, those players who want a lot more power and
speed, or all they can physically muster, will opt to use
Stance 3.
***Image WOULD be here, if I knew how to post it :confused: ***
----New Stance for Dual Sabers Style----
Yes, admittedly, to make this stance a reality would
require a good deal of animating work, but nevertheless,
I'm spelling it out here because I always felt that there
was something quite lacking with the way Raven setup
fighting with a saber in each hand.
What I'm proposing is a new stance for this style of
fighting, a more classic, and tactically more sound
method of fighting than the "Look I'm a Helicopter"
method that's currently in the game. It would have the
dueler in a pose where the left saber is extended towards
the enemy, and the right saber is held back near the
right shoulder/torso. The leading left saber is used
primarily for feints and parries (attacking with Stance
1), while the right hand is used for delivering forceful
blows (attacking with Stance 2) towards the target's
openings. I would set the buttons up on the mouse so
that pressing the left mouse button results in a left
handed Stance 1 attack, and pressing the right mouse
button results in a right handed Stance 2 attack.
----New Stance for Lightstaff Style----
Structured similarly to the Dual Sabers style I
detailed above, the primary difference being that
attacking with the Lightstaff's leading left blade would
result in a Stance 2 attack, and then following up with
the lightstaff's right blade would lead to a Stance 3
attack. OR perhaps the right blade would follow up with
an attack that'd be somewhere between a Stance 2 and a
Stance 3. I'll need to think about this one some more.
----Saber Controls----
Should the saber system I've described here be
all/partially adopted, I'd like to recommend a control
setup for using the sabers. The scheme I'm proposing
here would best be applied towards styles using a single
saber or lightstaff.
Players could develop a broader set of combat styles if
they could determine how far they really want to prep
their sabers. To help make this possible, I'd assign the
right mouse button for readying the saber. The player
would hold the right mouse button down till it was as far
into the ready position as he wanted. The saber would be
left in this position until the swing was executed with
the left mouse button. The swing will carry out its
Stance determined breadth unless the saber met a target
or the player prematurely releases the attack button.
This would create a nearly infinite range of
possibilities, all structured within a relatively simple
system. Visually, we could see duelists holding a broad
range of saber readied positions, and game play wise, The
potential applications of the 3 stances would be
enormous.
The "Reset Stance" key I suggested in my previous post
would become most useful in this saber control scheme.
Yup. I definitely like how this setup sounds.
*MISC. SUGGESTIONS
----Allow Force Powers Option Without Saber Throw----
Saber throw seems overpowered to me. While we have seen
Vader throw his saber in Ep. 5, this maneuver has yet to
appear in any of the other films. I'd suggest offering a
selectable Force Powers option entitled "Neutral Force
Powers without Saber Throw." At this point, and just for
game balance, I'd also seriously consider raising the
cost of using this power in a game that does permit Saber
Throw to be used.
----Icons and Match Ending Time----
Make Power Duel, Team icons and Team Colors OPTIONAL, and
extend the ending of such matches by a couple of seconds
so the victor has time to drink in the satisfaction of
watching his opponent’s body and saber fall to the
surface.
----Eliminate Flash Body-Blur During Force Dodges----
For a more cinematic look, I'd suggest removing the
"flash body-blur" effect that occurs whenever a player's
body Force Dodges. I'm confident that duelers will be
able to identify that it's a Force Dodge based solely on
the fact that the opponent's body is twisting away on an
angle away from the weapon, a manuever that the player
cannot consciously execute on his own. And again, I'm
not a big fan of the Force Dodge sound effect being
played.
----Melee Too Powerful Against Sabers----
I tried melee out for quite a while, and discovered that
I was virtually untouchable by those slashing their
sabers at me. Weird! If I recall correctly, melee
attacks also don't require the expenditure of any energy.
Hmmm...
That's it for now.
:)
Wow, that is a very VERY long and detailed description... I'd just like to point out that you only have to push the stance button twice on the blue and red stances, because they added desann's stances i guess [or something close to it]. You should really do something about that. 1) THe second blue stance [the new one] u can hardly tell its new, i personally got lost and thought the new one was the normal one but couldnt do a lunge. You should really make 2 new colors or soemthing like that, i say a bigger HUD for the new stances would be nice.
Kyle, i have no idea what you ment by force dodge but i think u were gettin at was soemthing like what i hate about it which is: They are just too n00bish!! I played against a TAB Bot for an hour, the only thing that happend was the Force dodge, and the only thing to die was me via force spamming of the bot! I say REALLY make the force dodging a VERY VERY VERY RARE THING, as in, if you run out of the stuff the upper left hand corner hud displays it happens and force takes over and dodges you. THat or make it gone completley cuase it just really makes the duel go on and on and if this were in a duel, you'd be there for hours for just one fight!
Everything else is awsome i just gotta get a friend to install OJP so i can test it out online, if you know some OJP Server's out there could ya tell me? ok later!