Kusanagi,
Ahhh... Yet another passionate believer in Infiltration's (a.k.a. "INF") qualities. Good. I was hoping that I wasn't the only participant of these forums who's had the great pleasure of playing a fantastic total conversion. More on this later in regards to your observations on how aspects of it could be folded into OJP.
Kurgan (and anyone else),
The discussion on cinematic qualities and game play can be a tricky one to navigate. I feel that, for the most part, game developers interpret "cinematic" as meaning skin deep "effects," and in my opinion, this leads to having very LITTLE impact on game play, which can be a good or a bad thing.
I think in the case of Star Wars fans who buy the game, they're buying the product initially and primarily so that they can feel like the are a part of the FILMS' universe. This establishes a DIFFERENT criteria/target from other games that aren't based on a cinematic franchise. In my mind, the game's developers should use the audience's expectations as the PRIMARY goal of the game, meaning that the designers should NOT interpret "cinematic" as merely meaning fancy effects, costumes and architecture (surface), but rather they should extend the meaning of "cinematic" so it becomes the HEART of game play (substance).
Clouding how one thinks about the way a game should be, is our experiences with other games. There is now a long established history in customers' minds as to what first person shooters and adventure games "should" be like. Likewise, game designers have also been steeped in these same experiences, so it should come as no surprise when they approach designing games with this "game play template" burned into their brain. I feel that most of the time this "game play tradition" is treated as being SO sacrosanct that it acts as a filter through which they view the building of games, whether they're built on cinematic franchises or not.
BUT the FACT is that games are totally artificial in their construction, and thus can be WHATEVER it is the designers set out to make it into. Yes, this should be an obvious observation, but the reality is most of us simply never think about its ramifications and cosequences. I strongly believe that these "game play design traditions" are holding back and outright smothering what games could be. Doom 3 is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's just filled to the brim with traditional game play. It's awfully pretty, but after the 4th level, who cares anymore? Wash, rinse, repeat. It's the SAME mechanics we've been exercising since we were teenagers, and the horse is DEAD, encrusted with bloated maggots and few are talking about it even though they're holding their noses from the wretched smell. Well, I'm tired of riding a dead horse.
Gaming CAN be something entirely different. I wholeheartedly BELIEVE that a TRULY cinematic Star Wars game CAN be made, and that if the cinema is the HEART of the game that it CAN be challenging, mentally/emotionally stimulating, fair, and fun. But a truly cinematic Star Wars will HAVE TO be VERY different from what we've been indoctrinated into believing what a game "should" be. But it WILL be fun if we DON'T let our preconceptions of what gaming "is" trip us up.
This is something that I feel OJP has only just TOUCHED upon. And that's why the mod is SO exciting to me. It's potential is enormous, but that only depends on how far the developers are willing to push it.
In my mind, the most viable and solid "solution" for the whole shooters vs. slashers imbalance factor is to adjust the SHOOTERS so that they are as cinematic in their capabilities as the Jedi have been made with the dueling adjustments. Taking this approach WILL significantly alter the game play in one primary direction: the player will have to THINK more. And for those of us who've played Infiltration (INF), we know that thinking CAN be deeply rewarding fun.
Kusanagi's above detailed interpretation/translation of potential INF game mechanics into OJP is very well done. In just one of his sentences, he reveals a UNIVERSE of critical nuances that are missing from JKJA, and these nuances ARE in the films if one thinks about what is they're actually watching.
I feel that a great solution to the shooters vs. slashers dilemma is to level the playing field by incorporating mechanics that are found in INF, in the real world, and in the films.
(1) Stamina. ALL player "classes" (I don't want to use that word too strongly) have to learn how to manage stamina. Stamina, like speed, can be directly proportional to what one's carrying in regards to gear. The more one carries, the slower one moves, and the more quickly stamina is used up. I've never seen a clone or a Mandalorian at a full out sprint, have you? By the way, this is a great means to balance out those armed and armored to the gills. One can jog/sprint/melee/duel until one runs out of gas. Walking has no stamina penalty, and standing still, crouching, and yes, going prone, helps to maintain/replenish one's stamina level. "But that doesn't sound very 'cinematic' Mr. Smartypants." If one thinks about what was shown in the films, it's clear that dueling is exhausting. Luke in Ep. 5 was soaked through with sweat and certainly wasn't fighting with the vigor he had when he first swung his saber at Daddy Vader on Bespin. See my HIGHLY detailed description of how stamina could play a MAJOR role in duels with my reply to the "Saber Control Methods" thread, found at
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1603936#post1603936) . Characters DO run in the films, but do they run throughout the entire battle sequence? No. In fact, the clones don't run at all in Ep. 2. At most, they jog. "But managing stamina doesn't sound like fun, Mr., uh...Staminapants." Take it from those of us who've explored INF's stamina system, it IS fun because it is challenging, and those that smartly manage (there we go, "thinking" again!) their stamina have a major advantage over those that don't. There's one sure way to find out whether or not stamina maintenance is fun. Spend a couple of days learning to master INF, and you'll see...
(2) Combatants are VERY vulnerable. True in real life, true in INF, and very true in the Star Wars films. One reduces their vulnerability by (A) not being seen, and (B) hiding behind cover. Do they do this in the films? ALL the time, except for rare bouts of sheer madness (Han's and Chewie's completely unexpected charge on the storm troopers amidst the Death Star's hallways), or when there simply is no concealment or cover (the clones' first battle on the wide open plains of Geonosis in Ep. 2). Leaning, and (less seen in the movies, but still there) going prone will give significant advantages to those who seek to minimize their vulnerabilities.
(3) Aim. Ah, yes, the citizens of the Star Wars universe do this nearly all the time, but there's no such thing in a Star Wars game. Here's a major means of balancing out combat types amongst those with the Force, and those without. The more carefully a person aims (which also means being aware of one's body posture) the greater one's capabilities in hitting the target. Naturally, unless being shot from behind, the Jedi will have a chance at deflecting the bolts with their sabers, but good solid aiming can be used as a device to reduce their odds of successfully defending themselves against such attacks.
(4) Jedi. As exciting as I find the current system for dueling, I do feel that some changes could enhance game play. Define stances according to what we've seen in the films. I see these as...
(i) Grumpy Old Men Stance :D : Old Ben and Vader's duel was made up largely of SHORT chops and slashes. Very quick attacks, that are nevertheless lethal with the slightest touch. In my mind, if I was equipped with a weapon that can cut through anything at any point along its length, I would use this stance the most. Why use something flashy, when all it does is leave one open to counterattacks? This is also the stance I'd use when I closed with a shooter, as speed is of the essence when beating the aiming of a barrel and the pulling of a trigger.
(ii) Son vs. Daddy Stance: Luke's clashes with Vader were a little more flashy than Ben's, but still believable. Saber lock ups were VERY brief (one might justifiably say that they weren't even seen in Ep. 5 & 6, but there are moments of slightly longer saber-to-saber contact than in Ep. 4, which didn't have any).
With the NEXT stance, it's important to determine how critical strength is in a duel when it comes to using weapons that can cut through anything.
(iii) Disco Dueling Stance: Yes, who'd imagine that that with Ep. 1 we'd see saber duels where the more one twirls and pirouettes the less sense it actually makes in combat. It sure looks pretty though. Oh well, it's there, and if one wants a "cinematic" game, well, one has to then deal with it. This is where I think Raven went really wrong with the way it setup its stances. Anyway, back to my point... These flashier moves ONLY make sense if saber LOCK UPS are a substantial concern. Why the Jedi and Sith decided that this was a sound combat strategy is beyond me, but maybe they have something like the Geneva Conventions where it says something like, "If an opponent exerts tremendous effort in pushing his blade towards yours, then you are OBLIGATED to push yours back as well. Never mind that it'd be smarter to step away and counterattack when the pushing opponent leaves himself open upon becoming unbalanced. Agreed? Good, then sign here. This'll look COOL on film." Alright, so if lock ups are a pretty common occurrence, then strength is quite important in trying to blow through your opponent's saber resistance. The idea is to keep his saber directed so that it becomes an advantageous opening for a counterattack. Preferably, a quick Grumpy Old Men stance chop. :p
(iv) They Must be Gods Stance: Darth Mauls, Darth Tyranus and Yodas only. This probably shouldn't even be a "stance" category, for I think it's entirely possible to get these amazing dueling moves IF one applies one's Force powers wisely. This should be a VERY hard thing to do. In my mind, Yoda's and Tyranus' duel could be ANY of the above stances while using Force speed, but one's ability to execute swings so accurately while moving SO fast should be something that would have to be truly worked at in order to duplicate. They are, after all, Force/saber combat "gods."
That’s it then. I guess you could call this my “dream” of what a Star Wars game could be like. Whether anyone with the know how wants to pick up and run with this thing is beyond me, but from seeing how dueling’s been modified, I get the sneaking suspicion that I’m not the only one who thinks about approaching game play in this fashion. I guess we’ll see, won’t we?
Time for bed.
Good night!
:wornout: