I was wondering if it were possible to make a cliff without clipping, csg subtracting and all that? I doubt its possible but I need the cliff thingie as quick as possible...
Pretty sure the cliff is a model. But if you dont want to use clipper/cgs substract... well just make the brushes :D
Ok, actually what I want is NOT a cliff. Its a large vertical piece of rock with ledges and nooks and crannies and all that. The models don't provide that.. Anybody have any good idea BESIDES USING BRUSHES?
I said I needed it fast, and I don't know modeling, so it would take a long time to do so. Fine, I'll rephrase my question: Does anyone know where to find map models on the internet?
Does anyone know where to find map models on the internet?
Why yes. Yes I do.
Plenty of Map models. (
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=map+models&btnG=Google+Search)
You know, search engines are wonderful things, I don't understand why people don't think of them... hmmm...
You speak as though I did not try using search engines. For your information, I've been googling the internet for quite some time already, to no avail.
I apologise, it wasn't meant to be a personal comment, so I'm sorry if I caused offence.
And no cliffs? Wow thats actually pretty surprising. I would help you out but I'm swamped with other projects at the moment. The request forum may yield decent results since its a simple request.
Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
I apologise, it wasn't meant to be a personal comment, so I'm sorry if I caused offence.
Lol no problem, I'm okay with it too. No hard feelings.
Keshire, actually I did not mean to make anybody make a model of what I wanted. I only asked if there was a good way to make it myself besides wasting days of brushwork, or finding it from the Internet. I've tried asking some stuff on the requests forum, but I've given up hope on that, as people usually only work on popular skins and whatnot, instead of boring models like the one I need. Thanks anyway...
How about trying gensurf, one of the plugins for GTK Radiant? It's a little bit of a pain to get to grips with at first, but it does offer up some interesting results if you play around with it. I spent a couple of days learning it and created a passable rocky canyon thingy, shortly after getting GTK. Its results are brush based, mind you.
Rgoer wrote a really detailed tutorial on using EasyGen here (
http://www.map-review.com/index.php?page=tutorial_view&id=12) , I don't know much about that program aside from the fact that it is used for terrain creation.
I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of drawbacks to using model based terrain, big performance hits for one. Not that terrain generators don't have their problems.
Originally posted by Kengo
How about trying gensurf, one of the plugins for GTK Radiant? It's a little bit of a pain to get to grips with at first, but it does offer up some interesting results if you play around with it. I spent a couple of days learning it and created a passable rocky canyon thingy, shortly after getting GTK. Its results are brush based, mind you.
Well, I tried Gensurf too, but all it seemed to do for me was create mountaineous terrain. What I need is not terrain, but a tall vertical rock block, something like those natural pillars.
Wedge, those are pretty much what I need, but does anybody know how to re-texture the models?
By the time you read this message you should have been able to have hand made your cliffs out of brushes or patch meshes with all the details you needed. See sometimes if you try you can achieve :)
The reason why I am turning to models is because I do not have/do not know the techniques to make such a thing with brushes alone. How realistic would it look? Maybe it would look better with patch meshes, but once again, I'm not familiar with them. Mind giving me a few tips Killa?
make alot of triangular brushes (make a square and clip it once diagonaly and the duplicate it a few times) and use vertex edit (select the brush and press V) to move the verts around till you get some smooth looking terrain. You can also use a shader that will add phong shading to your terrain for some slick looking smooth shadows) This does take a bit of practice to get used to but to tell you the truth..... Unless you use some of the models posted above you will have to use a brush or patch method as there is no other way unless you get a modeling program and make your own cliff stuff.
Originally posted by Druid Bremen
anybody know how to re-texture the models?
I've never tried, but you could try replacing the default textures for these models with your own pics and see what happens.
I think...
Use the _remap key on a misc_model.
Originally posted by Lil Killa
make alot of triangular brushes (make a square and clip it once diagonaly and the duplicate it a few times) and use vertex edit (select the brush and press V) to move the verts around till you get some smooth looking terrain. You can also use a shader that will add phong shading to your terrain for some slick looking smooth shadows) This does take a bit of practice to get used to but to tell you the truth..... Unless you use some of the models posted above you will have to use a brush or patch method as there is no other way unless you get a modeling program and make your own cliff stuff.
Hmm okay.. I'm not sure about what you mean when you say "clip it once diagonally and then duplicate it a few times" though.. How do I place them? Could you clarify it?
Edit: I think what you mean is the type of cliffs with triangular ledges and outcroppings? If so, actually what I want is a tall vertical stone rock thing, with cracks and such..
Originally posted by GothiX
Use the _remap key on a misc_model.
;)
One other thing you can try, that achieves about the same effect as what killa's talking about, is to make a GenSurf ground surface and then flip it on its side. If you then, with the surface selected, press V, you can drag the green boxes (vertices) around to warp the terrain however you like.
@GothiX: that _remap key could be useful to me...can you be a bit more explicit on its usage? Does it take a texture/shader as a parameter, or a set of them?
That was very helpful Wedge, but how do I make it work on a circle/eight-sided pillar?
(I know circle is unlikely to work, as as far as I know, its not possible to use gensurf on a curve)
_remap is used to remap textures/shaders in the model. To remap all shaders to a given shader, use "*;models/mymodel/mytexture". To remap a specific shader, use "models/mymodel/old;models/mymodel/new".
Take from the Q3A entity description.
Originally posted by Kengo
I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of drawbacks to using model based terrain, big performance hits for one. Not that terrain generators don't have their problems.
Kengo, mslaf recommends using models of objects and terrain as much as possible without going nuts. Well I went overboard with my 'MODEL' of the terrain I'm using for my current map. And thanks to GOTHIX I can now compile ASE models of terrain. Not only does it look better than any other available terrain gen program...it's so easy it's stupid.
Once you have your terrain mapped out with some nice FAT patches, make a nicely blended terrain texture you can lay right over the top of it. You can adjust it according to your needs. When the final product is done, it looks remarkably real. Now sharp cliffs may be a bit harder because I have not tried those yet. But if I did I would most likely do straight brush work and just cut it up the way I want it. It's slow and tedious but so are a lot of programs. In the end I usually get what I want with patience.
Yeah those are good Mercenary. Thanks for the links. But if you want easy nice looking smooth stuff that won't lag the map....learn ASE.
Put this batch file into your Radiant folder.....
Here is the batch file I use to convert brush work into ASE models:
"C:\Program Files\GtkRadiant-1.4\q3map2.exe" -meta -patchmeta -subdivisions 4 -game ja "C:\Program Files\LucasArts\Star Wars Jedi Knight Jedi Academy\GameData\base\maps\example.map"
"C:\Program Files\GtkRadiant-1.4\q3map2.exe" -convert -format ase -game ja "C:\Program Files\LucasArts\Star Wars Jedi Knight Jedi Academy\GameData\base\maps\example.bsp"
Here is a TUTORIAL from mslaf:
1. Create a model build with brushes and/or patches and save it as a Radiant's
prefab.
Result: You will have model separated from the rest of geometry.
################################################## #############
2. Start a new map and load previously saved prefab. Move it
to the center (0,0,0 or |_ ) as this point will become the center
of an ASE model after conversion process.
You can adjust this position according to your needs.
Result: Your new map will contain the single model build with brushed.
################################################## #############
3. Create a room surrounding the model - to separate it from the void and
avoid leaks. Apply the system/caulk texture on all room surfaces:
external and internal.
Result: You will have your further ASE model (currently build with
radian's polyhedrons) inside an empty caulked room.
################################################## #############
4. Create an "info_player_start" entity inside the room. The entity will be
removed during BSP2ASE conversion but you need it to avoid "map
leaked" error during the bsp phase. Save your map as map2ase.map.
Result: You will have a model and info_player_start inside the caulked
room saved as “map2ase.map”
################################################## #############
5. Compile the saved map with:
[ modify the "C:\Games\Jedi Academy\GameData" according to your installation
path ]
C:> q3map2 -meta -patchmeta -subdivisions 3 -game ja -fs_basepath "C:\Games\Jedi
Academy\GameData" "C:\Games\Jedi Academy\GameData\base\maps\map2ase.map"
and if there's no errors, convert it to an ASE format with:
C:> q3map2 -convert -format ase -game ja -fs_basepath "C:\Games\Jedi
Academy\GameData" "C:\Games\Jedi Academy\GameData\base\maps\map2ase.bsp"
Now, you can move the map2ase.ase model to "models\map_objects\youmap"
subdirectory.
Result: You will have an ASE model converted from the map file.
################################################## #############
6. Now you must fix shader/textures names inside an ASE model. Open the
map2ase.ase
in your favorite editor and look for every line starting with:
*MATERIAL_NAME "
like:
*MATERIAL_NAME "\something\something\texture.jpg"
or
*MATERIAL_NAME "/something/something/texture.tga"
or
*MATERIAL_NAME "..\something\something\texture.tga"
The shader/texture names above are incorrect and should be modified.
The correct material name should be like:
*MATERIAL_NAME "textures/something/something/texture"
so you should:
- replace all "\" with "/"
- remove all ".."
- remove all extensions like ".tga", ".jpg" etc. no matter if it's a shader or a
'simple' texture.
- remove the "/" or "\" on the beginning of material's name as the shader name
must start with a letter.
- insert the "textures/" on the beginning of material's name if it's missing.
I use the linux's "sed" utility for this operation but if you don't know it or
don't have it you can automate these changes with an editor macros or other
techniques.
Apply the changes, save your ase2map.ase and try to load it in the Radiant.
Check the Radian's log if something is not right. If the model loads
successfully and looks fine in the editor it should be fine in the game. Try to
create a simple map with your model and check it out.
Good luck.
ms.-
I've heard a few things, but is .ase really that much better for performance?
map to ase to 3ds tutorial
http://members.lycos.co.uk/mmfsdjw/hpbimg/tutorial.html)
I think I better clarify a few things: actually I do not want a cliff, like I said quite a few times previously, I simply want a tall vertical stone rock that looks natural.
Create a brush, give it one of the rock textures and cut it up a bit to give you your ledges?
It tends to be the textures that make rocks look real :)
Originally posted by Druid Bremen
That was very helpful Wedge, but how do I make it work on a circle/eight-sided pillar?
(I know circle is unlikely to work, as as far as I know, its not possible to use gensurf on a curve)
Okay, one thing you can do is just make a brush pillar and chop it up a lot, then drag the vertices around. Essentially it's the same idea as using GenSurf, only you have to create the triangles yourself instead of having the computer do it for you. What you should probably do is just make a tall, thin brush; switch to XZ view and cut it into evenly-spaced triangles (all the same size); then switch to YZ view and repeat. Then press V and drag vertices to your heart's content.
Another option is to simply create a cylinder - a patch mesh. Then, go to the Curves menu and select Insert > Rows (do this several times) and then Insert > Columns (do this maybe twice). These will place some new vertices on the cylinder. If you press V before inserting them and then watch the patch while you carry out these commands, you'll see what happens. With more vertices, you'll have finer control over the shape of the patch (though patches respond differently to vertex editing than brushes do).
If you use this method, you'll probably want to turn the cylinder into an ASE model as explained above. Basically as lauser said, you put your future model in a blank map with a caulk box around it, add an info_player_start, compile with -patchmeta -subdivisions X, and then run q3map2 on the .bsp file with -convert. I've never had to do any text editing on ASE models, so I'm not sure what that's about... Then you just add yourmodel.ase to your map as a misc_model.
If you don't want as much fine control, just use one of the defaulkt game models...I've gotten some great results with one of those Tatooine rock pillars and the _remap and modelscale_vec xScale yScale zScale keys. Check out the giant rock pillar supporting my cave roof in this shot (
http://wso.williams.edu/~jshoer/images/screenshots/shot0157.jpg).
Yeah Wedge, I don't know what all that text editing is about. I have never had a problem either even though when you open up the ASE file the directories are backwards a bit.
Mercenary, the advantage to ASE is less triangles are being drawn. NOT for patches but for brush work. When you use CAULK on brush work the triangles are not drawn.
SIDE NOTE: You do NOT need ASE files in your PK3 for them to show up ingame. They get calculated into the BSP.
/EDIT: Man...my spelling this morning is sad :rolleyes:
Originally posted by lauser
Kengo, mslaf recommends using models of objects and terrain as much as possible without going nuts.
I'm the Q3A engine rookie and this opinion originally came from ydnar. I was just repeating it.
Originally posted by Mercenary
I've heard a few things, but is .ase really that much better for performance?
Models give you a little FPS improvement but they have a lot of other advantages:
- no matter what modeling program you use it always be better than radiant, so modeling process will become fast and effective.
- models seem to be better phong shaded (like patches) and therefore they look smoother. I had never achieved the same effect with brushes, even with the highest shadeangle values.
- models are easy to rescale or to rotate – if you have ever tried to rescale/rotate a model build with brushes you should know what it means.
- terrain models could have much better UV mapping as you have three mapping directions instead of one - if the ivector tells you something.
- terrain models can be optimized. The mesh can be more detailed in some places and less detailed elsewhere.
And Druid Bremen, maybe you spend a few days or a week to learn a modeling program but you will do it only once and that will save you weeks or months in the future. And the modeling tools are the future and it's really worth to know them if you're planning to create maps for Jedi Knight 4 etc. Gmax is the best choice and actually only one you currently have. I don't like 3D studio but, you know: if you don't have what you like you must like what you have;)
Thanks for the TUTORIAL ms...and the heads up! :D
Originally posted by mslaf
I'm the Q3A engine rookie and this opinion originally came from ydnar. I was just repeating it.
I'm not about to argue with either of you :)
Would you be happy for us to put your tutorial up at Map-Review BTW?
Originally posted by Kengo
I'm not about to argue with either of you :)
Would you be happy for us to put your tutorial up at Map-Review BTW?
Sure, you don't need to ask ;).