It's recreating the skeleton thats the problem. I've done some work on it and have tried quite a few methods. But the skeleton I've used which is a modified form of corto's, isn't working very well. After merging the animations usually deform themselves.

So it's probably best to wait until Wudan finishes his Dragon or a skeleton suitable for animating is released by someone with extensive knowledge in this area.

I'm pretty sure your just going to wind up frustrated on this endeaver.

*edit*
On another note what makes you so confident in your abilities to get this done in a timely manner? I'm just curious.

Has anyone asked Raven for a usable animation skeleton for JK3, I'm sure they had to have one for some of the force powered animations.

Originally posted by Wudan
It's that easy - now go do it. Sure thing, I think I'll make the first animation be the "giving the bird" taunt. :-)

I am going to try & get with ASk before I do the system change on the LAN here at home. I more than likely won't really be able to get into this until after the system change which could take up to 2 weeks, but again, the animations end of this has bumped up to priority #1 for me so rest assured I will get to it as soon as I can.Originally posted by keshire
But the skeleton I've used which is a modified form of corto's, isn't working very well.Well perhaps that's your problem. Have you tried creating your own? There's not a world of a difference between the JK2 & JK3 skeleton.Originally posted by keshire
So it's probably best to wait until Wudan finishes his Dragon or a skeleton suitable for animating is released by someone with extensive knowledge in this area.I wasn't even aware Wudan was working on the skeleton, from what ASk & RA was telling me, he was working on a different proggy. Cool, 2 heads are better than one. The more the merrier I say.Originally posted by keshire
On another note what makes you so confident in your abilities to get this done in a timely manner? I'm just curious.Who said anything about timely? Hell, I'll be lucky if I can even get started in a timely manner.

I never said anything about time man, all I am saying is... well let's just say that most people, not all just most people, do not put the same amount of effort into their work as I do. So no matter how good of a job you do or have done, that's going to be my state of mind (unless I know you) because that's just how people are in general. Even if I did know you though, I try to be as thorough as possible & would more than likely go through whatever it is again anyways.

I just find it hard to believe that someone can get JK2 animations working but are stumped on the JK3 animations - nope, soz, don't buy it. I think there's something really wrong with this picture & I intend to find out what.

Between my Raven contacts (which in all honestly are not really established, but contacts none the less) & the various coders, modelers, & other developers of sorts in the JK community & others as well, I think I have a fairly decent shot at making this happen; But we'll just see what happens.

I don't care to deal with non-constructive critisism no matter how hopeless or whatever the case may be, & I'm not trying to imply that you were, I'm just saying in general, non-constructive critisism is something I DO NOT appreciate at all.Originally posted by razorace
Has anyone asked Raven for a usable animation skeleton for JK3, I'm sure they had to have one for some of the force powered animations. I know ASk or Corto talked with them a bit regarding this (forgot whom, think it was Corto). The impression I got from whomever was Raven wasn't necessarily unwilling to help but not really willing to help either.

I do have a variety of Raven contacts, I will try & make use of them to get what information is needed but I first need to get myself more familiar with what the problems are in detail, any solutions that I/we can come up with, etc; etc. before I even ask them anything.

I just got done chatting with ASk so here's an update for you guys...

When Corto made the JK2 skeleton, he ran ASk's program likeglamerge.exe _humanoid.gla -l& that dumped out information which was essential for creating the skeleton. After they released this skeleton for JK2 there was only like 1 person who tried to make new animations & I guess they didn't do it right. Now I don't know about you guys but if I spent a bunch of time putting something like this together & only 1 person tried to make animations, I'd be pretty pist & wouldn't want to do it over again, thus probably why Corto didn't & just tried modifying the JK2 skeleton into a JK3 skeleton.

The skeleton needs to be completely re-created & I need SoftImage XSI to do that. Now I do have this program but unfortunately, it does not work in Win98. It only works in Win2k & above OS's so this is not something I can start on until after the LAN change.

Recreating the skeleton in Max would be a no go. If things are different like ASK and Corto suspect then yes you'd need these things.

Bone data from glamerge
and soft image to recreate it.

From what I understand ASK's bone data is only relative in SoftImage.

That's not entirely true - the skeleton can still be exported from Max to the XSI format in the same manner that a model is made: It's just that no one reproduced it in the right order or in the right hierarchy.

If I knew much of anything about XSI I could be more help, but I haven't really pressed to make more converters for this and that - I just deal with GLA animation in it's native format, using some very powerful math-magic.

I worked with Corto and ASk on this project for JK2, and still have very regular contact with Corto. ASk has given me the source to glamerge (not amazing, I think he'd give it to anybody), but I think I have a few tricks for improving on his methods.

As far as animations were concerned, I was never planning on using 3DS Max. I have a bit more experience with 3DS but I'm still pretty much a n00b when it comes down to it. I was planning on learning how to use XSI to do this, I figured why work with something trying to imitate the real thing when I have the real thing. Yes, it'll be more of a pain in the butt to take the extra time to learn how to do this in XSI but the final product should be better.

As far as using ASk's code goes, if you think you can improve it then more power to you but I don't want to keep ASk out of the loop because he is still interested in the project.

I understand Wudan's & Corto's skepticism on just how serious I am about making this happen considering how most people are in general, however I am very serious about this & plan on doing everything possible to make this happen.

I think I mentioned this before but in case I didn't, I may end up not being online on a regular basis so that's why this has bumped up to priority #1. This is something that developers can use, not just players & to me, developers come first. At least the real ones do.

Put me on that list of devs. I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on animations. My only set back is the skeleton.

I'd like to make more functional animations though.

But its up to Coders to help me along this route. I want to make new states like hanging off the side of cliffs and a sniper crouch/lay down.

With the cliff hanging I'd also go with two pull-ups. A regular and a jedi (like obi-wan in PM)

With the sniper laydown I'd like to add in the shuffling along the ground and the abiltiy to roll side-to-side like when your in the knockdown state.

Then I planned on helping Renegade with his scripted locks.

Get us the animations and we will do the code.

http://www.gamingforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=886)

Have an idea for a new animation to add to the pack? Add it there. Matter fact, we should pretty much just close this thread down & post a sticky URL to forward people to where the AnimPack is now going to be discussed.Originally posted by keshire
Put me on that list of devs. I plan on doing some pretty extensive work on animations.There isn't really a "list" of developers. It pretty much works like OJP, you have an animation you'd like to see added, post about it in the forums & call dibs.

While I have posted some ideas in the AnimPack forum, I haven't called dibs on any because my first priority is getting the skeleton done. FYI.Originally posted by keshire
But its up to Coders to help me along this route. I want to make new states like hanging off the side of cliffs and a sniper crouch/lay down.

With the cliff hanging I'd also go with two pull-ups. A regular and a jedi (like obi-wan in PM)I like the idea of grabbing ledges & just hanging there. We'd probably want to use the use button in conjunction with that, then have people release the use button & just hit forward to climb up or something like that (because jump will do a force jump like Obi in Ep1 (Maul fight scene)).

I have removed the ledge flip post in the AnimPack forums & combined these 2 together because they will work hand in hand.Originally posted by keshire
With the sniper laydown I'd like to add in the shuffling along the ground and the abiltiy to roll side-to-side like when your in the knockdown state.I added this to the forums as well but in the future, I'd appreciate it if people posted their own ideas (now that I finally have the forums going).

That'd be nice but gamingforums doesn't mesh well with websense, which is the web-blocker I use here at work. And i don't play on the net at home because its disrespectful to my wife.

*edit*

Also. after some testing it looks as if the standard xsi exporter for max that Raven released with JKO screws up the skeleton. I loaded up Corto's skeleton in SoftImageXSI EXP and then the same skeleton loaded up and then immediately exported from max. And low and behold.

The only other exporters I've found (through the SoftImage website) only export them out as NULLS.

Any ideas/suggestions?

And why doesn't this happen with custom skeletons? Is it becuase I've built the skeleton directly in MAX instead of pulling it from an outside XSI?

Originally posted by keshire
That'd be nice but gamingforums doesn't mesh well with websense, which is the web-blocker I use here at work. And i don't play on the net at home because its disrespectful to my wife.You can add URLs to web-blockers.

Look, LucasForums has more restrictions (i.e. you can't attach files, avatars have to be smaller, any other features it does have is based on a credit system (or at least used to be) = gh3y). With GamingForums, there's no ads, faster load times, no restrictions, plus I may get my manager spot back there & even if I don't, I have friends there from when I was FN staff. There's no way I'm not going with GamingForums. The *ONLY* thing LucasForums has going for it is the traffic amount - that's it.Originally posted by keshire
Also. after some testing it looks as if the standard xsi exporter for max that Raven released with JKO screws up the skeleton.The XSI plugins that came with the JK2 SDK do not load the JK3 skeletons (that came with the JK3 SDK) correctly either. There is another XSI importer out there that does work but the animations bar messes up whenever I used it so it's obviously buggy & I didn't feel like dealing with it. Perhaps it can load the XSI files correctly but to me, it's just one more reason not to use Max for this.

I'll use Max to work on models. For the animations, I plan on keeping it straight up XSI all the way. That's what Raven used, that's what I'll use. Well, that's at least the plan so far, however, we all know things don't normally work out the way they were originally planned so we'll just have to wait & see what happens.

ASk has given me the source to glamerge (not amazing, I think he'd give it to anybody)

Not precisely

First of all, I was returning a favor, after all, you gave me the source of glaneo

Second, I know you and the target that you strive to achieve, therefore my code can only help you.

Feel free to improve over it, the code is awfully messy as I look at it now. It could use some optimisations in terms of searching for data and manipulating it.

However, I do frown at you for that remark. That wasn't needed at all.

What's the big deal with that comment? Doesn't seem so harmful to me. I don't even know why some of you are so protective of your source code in the first place.

I think it's because he was the man behind the glassy null.

What's the big deal with the animations stuff? Oh well. First of all, I DO HAVE JK3, right out from the shelf when it came out.

Now, marker0077, what makes you think that Mike Gummelt or even God is gonna help you out on this one? When they did nothing b4.

YOU DONT NEED SOFTIMAGE XSI to make new animations for JK2 or JK3. Gummelt is a programmer for Christ sakes, he has no clue on how the animations where made or compiled.

One piece of advice from the person who wasn't lazy enough to achieve the goal of making a suitable skeleton for animations for JK2: TAKE IT EASY, cuz if you try to run over the world in your quest for it, the world is gonna crush you silly. Many ppl told me, Ask and Wudan, that making new anims was impossible and about the end of the world, and bla bla bla. Guess what, they were al wrong, AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

I also take you're new on this of researching stuff, so, read first and learn. Then talk a lot.

As I'm posting this I'm gonna make a skelly suitable for animations for JK3, with meshes as bones and not nulls, cuz seems like you ppl find it difficult to animate that way :confused: , even you talk like experts.

Adiуs compadres.

Sorry about the delay on the post people but I am going to be busy with this LAN change for some time. I don't even have the server done yet but I am close, then after that I have 3 or 4 more PC's to take care of so please try & bare with me.Originally posted by Emon
What's the big deal with that comment? Doesn't seem so harmful to me.I think it was taken out of context but I see what ASk is saying. It does somewhat appear that he was degrading ASk's work but I don't think it was meant like that.Originally posted by Emon
I don't even know why some of you are so protective of your source code in the first place. Ever had someone steal something from you? There's all kinds of wannabes & thieves out there man, you need to protect your work. It's not a matter of trust, it's a business thing. I can think of a variety of obvious reasons why an authors work should be protected, I can't think of 1 good reason why it shouldn't. It's just better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it. At least that's my opinion.Originally posted by CortoCG
What's the big deal with the animations stuff?I think this is pretty self explanitory but I'll answer the question. You can do a variety of things with new animations, make new moves, new taunts, all kinds of cool stuff - that's what the big deal is.

There's alot of people who want to make alot of things happen but can't due to lack of new animations, this will be an animation pack for everyones needs. Should be kick arse.Originally posted by CortoCG
Now, marker0077, what makes you think that Mike Gummelt or even God is gonna help you out on this one? When they did nothing b4.umm, I think you are taking what I said out of context dude, you need to re-read what I posted.

I didn't say that anyone would respond (which it seems to me that you are implying, anyone please correct me if that's not how it appeared to them), matter fact I said something along the lines of they may not respond at all.

What I do know is where there's a will, there's a way & I said I am going to try my best, nothing more. I have tons of contacts, perhaps if they see someone trying hard enough they'll listen. Perhaps not. We'll see.Originally posted by CortoCG
YOU DONT NEED SOFTIMAGE XSI to make new animations for JK2 or JK3. Gummelt is a programmer for Christ sakes, he has no clue on how the animations where made or compiled.Mike Gummelt is apart of the team & he talks with the other staff, I'm thinking someone told him that that's what they used. Now perhaps you do not *need* Softimage XSI to do this but this is what I was told by ASk (I think) & this is what Mike Gummelt said in an interview. Considering the file format is based on the program, I don't think using it is going to hurt. If anything, the animations should come out better, I mean hell, if it's good enough for the makers of Shrek & the Animatrix & whatever other movies, I think it's certainly good enough for us but I could be wrong.

Once I have the LAN change done, this is my #1 priority. I can't give more than that.Originally posted by CortoCG
...AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.I don't think I ever said that you didn't know what you were talking about, at least not to that extent. You made a working skeleton for JK2 so that obviously means, at the very minimum, you know enough about this to get the job done but I tried coming to you & got the whole "animations in each folder" thing when we were only talking about the _humanoid skeleton & what you told me just totally didn't add up. Now perhaps there was some miscommunication there but when I tried to clarify, you just didn't want to talk (pretty much wouldn't at that point).

I'm guessing you just saw me as one of the other people out there that came your way whom are just not willing to get off their lazy bum & make this happen properly, which considering some of the BS you've had to put up with in the past, I can understand & even relate to that - to an extent. But, if you shut down every person that comes your way or at stay negative regarding the topic to the very minumum, that's just taking it too far. That's just my opinion though.

I told you before & I'll tell you again, I'm going to do everything I can to make this happen, with or without your help. If you want to help me out, great, can always use more knowledge & more help but I AM NOT going to waste my time proving myself to you. I have more important things to do. Either help or don't.Originally posted by CortoCG
I also take you're new on this of researching stuff, so, read first and learn. Then talk a lot.Is english your first language? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I'm being dead serious, is english your first language?

I didn't say "I know this" or "I know that", I said "here's the gameplan so far" - that's it, you are (yet again) taking what I am saying out of context.

I realize that you & I got off on a bad foot but this is precisely why. Things are taken out of context, some of which implies disrespect, & some of us seem to be so cocky that it appears rude to others. As for me, I'm not trying to be cocky here, I just have confidence in my ability to make things happen when you put enough effort into something.

Just because you might check something out & then I check it out again afterwards, that doesn't imply that I think you are not capable of handling whatever situation, it just means that I am being thorough & double checking (& sometimes even triple checking) things out because that is just the professional thing to do IMO. Now this was just an example, not something that actually happened. I only brought it up because I just get the impression that this is the type of mentality you hold when dealing with me.Originally posted by CortoCG
...I'm gonna make a skelly suitable for animations for JK3...Cool I apreciate the help. With the workload I have I can really use it but if the skeleton isn't in public use under OJP terms, then I'm not using it for the AnimPack. I think why is pretty obvious.

Thanks for the feedback folks, I'll post again when I have time.

Originally posted by Marker0077 There's all kinds of wannabes & thieves out there man, you need to protect your work.[/B]

Of course. But the rapidly growing open source community has millions of contributors and all have their work protected. I was more thinking along the lines of the, "MINE MINE MINE I WANT FAME!" attitude a lot of people have, although I don't think that applies to ASk.

Unless he registers it at the copyright office or has something else to prove the work is his, it's his word against whomever else.

In all reality, I do agree with you & do not think it will be a problem but it's ASk's call & program & I can understand him wanting to protect it. He allows us to use it so I really don't see the what the big deal is either way.

As far as "MINE MINE" goes, the only person that fits in that category is Lee Oattes (just my opinion). I can understand why all the other coders do not have their mod being open source, at least the ones I personally know. Take Chosen One for example, he let his mod be public open source & he had a few different people remove his name from the code & try & pass it off as their own. Some of which added abusive commands, then you have people who may use the code but give no credit which is almost the same thing.

Look at it this way, what good is having the code be open source going to do? ASk is pretty much already going to let us use his code (at least I would think he would if someone asked him), so what's the point? For him to not release it publically, he protects his work work a little better & those who want to use it can. That's a win win if you ask me.

I understand and respect his decision, I was only speaking in general.

FYI, the first stable version of GLAMerge, that actually would work IF the skeleton was right (it was the same one as the version of it in the unedited version of the howto post) - did I confuse you yet? - had the source publically available for about 6 months.

Guess how many downloads of it I got? yes, that's right, about 3.

So I figured it out, if nobody wanted it, I would not bother with it anymore. Those that ask me for it, the ones that still are involved in modding and can use the source code to benefit from it, get it. I.E Wudan, Razor Ace, Tchouky.

Well, those that do always outnumber those that want.

Most people want to use the mods, not make them. Sure they may say they are interested in making them at times & even genuinely mean it, until they find out what the workload is like.

Besides, explaining how to do every little thing can be more frustrating & time consuming than just doing it yourself.

If a person really wants to make something happen, they'll try & figure things out for themselves & then only ask about the things they are stumped on, or they may just ask you about a topic if they happen to be speaking with you at the time.

Marker0077 , I think your doing a good job of alienating the people who could help you out. They have no interest in making new animations obviously and would only be helping as a favor. You should treat it as such.

Other than that. Feel free to email me at jmattison@scottrade.com and maybe we can swap notes.

I wouldn't say I'm "alienating" anyone, I have no problem with helping people out but I get people who want to take up my time with super n00b stuff like "how do I make a skin" & again, I have no problem with helping even if it's that but I just don't want to waste my time going into detail with such common place knowledge. There are forums for this kind of thing.

The only thing that really gets on my nerves are people who don't try. They just want someone to tell them everything - screw that. Try & figure it out on your own & if you are still having problems, then let me know. This is the #1 reason why I say "do you know of some place that I can go to learn about this stuff" when I talk to people whom have more knowledge in whatever area than I do.

Anyways, as far as swapping notes goes, sounds good. Right now I'm having a terrible time with trying to figure out how the 2k/XP networking system works. The server is 2k & it's real old (100 mhz, which is why it's a server & not a workstation) & the other clients are XP & well... lets just say it's not going as smoothly as I originally anticipated. The point is my time is really pre-occupied at the moment. I want to go back to modding but what can I do, we have to have working workstations. If any of you have experience with 2k/XP networking & are willing to help, please let me know.

As for Corto's JK3 skeleton, is that going to be released under OJP terms (submitted to OJP)?

I doubt so
Most likely something along of the lines

'if you use this, make sure to add my name to list of credits'

To be honest, I myself am not entirely siding with OJP philosophy :)

Well adding to the credits was never an issue, credit being given is a given in OJP and CM. As far as "not entirely siding with OJP philosophy" goes, how so?

The only "philosophy" I am aware of is sharing. Not allowing people to use your work is one thing, using other peoples work & not allowing people to use your work is another - that's the only "philosophy" I'm aware of & I totally agree with. TBH, I can't understand how any honest person couldn't.

My only concern here is not being on friendly terms with Corto in the future; For example, we use the skeleton in the AnimPacks & then in the future there is more "miscommunication" that leads to Corto pulling a "you can't use my toys anymore" type thing - screw that. The AnimPack is a public resource & I am not going to put it in that type of a situation. If it's not released to OJP, CM, or some form of secure public use then I'm not using it.

You guys saw what happened with the JK2 animations development, how many people do you think you are going to find that are serious about doing new animations in JK3? If Corto is going to make the skeleton, he may as well let us use it & this is the only way we will (we being CM staff & AnimPack supporters/contributors). Of course, you guys could always start an AnimPack project of your own.

Now perhaps Corto isn't the type of person to do that, I have no idea because I don't know the guy personally but whether he is or isn't is irrelevent. After the whole Duelers ordeal, my philosophy is "business is business" & the thing needs to not necessarily be put in public domain, but in some form of secure public use.

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: Another thing I'd like to say is that I do apologize about the little bit of inconvenience this does create; Trust me, it's more of an inconvenience for me than anyone else. Like I said before, after the whole Duelers ordeal, I am covering my ass from now on. It's better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it.

I'd be willing to write up a terms of agreement that states we are not permitted to allow other people use of the skeleton & the only thing that we are permitted to do with it is use it in the AnimPack project, which is of course going to be used in other mods but all the other mods use a version of AnimPack. Credit being given will of course be in the agreement but credit being given is a HUGE thing with me, so rest assured on that. I normally include links to email/URL that authors would like included etc; etc.

I already made that skelly. It only needs tweaking to be sure it's perfect. I would've released it yesterday, but I didn't have the _humanoid.gla file at work, lol. And when I got home, well I spent all the time I could with my girlfriend, so... Well. I think I'll dedicate more time tonight after work, since I'll be alone for about 5 hours or so. - Corto

Corto, I'm in no rush. I'll be tied up for at least another week with this LAN thing. I do however need the skeleton submitted to OJP or for you & I to come to some sort of an agreement so I can always use the skeleton for the AnimPack regardless of whether or not we ever "miscommunicate" in the future. Credits being given towards ANYONE whom helped out with this will be given along with any email & URL links that they would like. Due credit is mandatory with me.

I sincerely never meant any offense towards you & I hope the feeling is mutual but business is business & I've been burnt before in the past. I can think of obvious reasons why I should insist on doing this agreement or submittal to OJP, I can't think of 1 reason why I shouldn't; Aside from saving myself some extra work.

Let me know where you stand with that. If it's not acceptable to you then I'll just have to make my own, which I really do not want to do but I need security with the project.

Thanks for everyones time.

Corto, I'm in no rush.

But I am. Your not the only animator around here.

Duncan
Bloodriot(I know he checks in every once in awhile)
And Myself

have expressed a desire to tackle some new anims.

And as far as submitting animations to OJP.

I believe it should be in xsi format.
For each individual animation sequence.

If this is open source then the animations should be modifiable too. And I will put my money were my mouth is.

If Monsoontide submits his Acklay to OJP, I'll cough up my accompanying xsi files.

Otherwise you'll all have to settle for my future works. ;)

Originally posted by keshire
But I am. Your not the only animator around here.

Duncan
Bloodriot(I know he checks in every once in awhile)
And Myself

have expressed a desire to tackle some new anims. I wasn't aware that there was even any other animators willing to realistically play ball. This is great. I think we should work together or at least allow me to add whatever animations you guys create to the CM AnimPack.Originally posted by keshire
And as far as submitting animations to OJP.

I believe it should be in xsi format.
For each individual animation sequence.Ummm, I think you are misinterpreting what AnimPack is. We create new animations, compile the .GLA, then we put a source together that already has the coding needed done plus whatever other improvements we think should be in there like bug fixes for example, then that's what gets submitted to OJP. When we put together new animations & add it, we submit a new version of AnimPack to OJP. Get it?

The source code will be submitted as well but it may be a seperate submission. I haven't worked out all the detail but that's the gameplan I have so far. I just want this to be a resource for coders, that's the main concept of AnimPack but I will make it a stand-alone mod as well.

Any .XSI files or maybe even actual code will all be released in the CM developers pack... maybe, like I said, there's still some things to work out.

Since the gla merger program only works on .gla files. I suggest that all _humanoid animations be submitted in .gla format. Since the merger program isn't set up for non-humanoid animation files, they should be submitted in a compiled .gla form and with a source .XSI so people can modify them.

Last night when I posted, I was tired & drinking so I wasn't thinking too clearly so please forgive me for not clarifying right away.

1 of the things that are an ABSOLUTE MUST with me is copyright in part or in whole; For example, with all the models I put out I include a CM mesh that identifies the work as coming from CM staff. I do this in case someone ever tries to steal my work again, they have to remove the CM mesh in order to use it so they may as well be using the original authors work (which is what I want them to do in the first place).

The point is, if I can't claim partial copyright by putting this out there in .XSI format, then I probably won't do it. Like if I put the .max file out there for the models, people could just remove the CM mesh & voila, I have no legal right to claim anything. The same concept applies to these animation files, they can remove the animations that I made & voila, same boat.

The gameplan for me is, if someone makes up some animations & wants them added, I (or another CM staff member/supporter) will add them to the pack, then it becomes available in the next AnimPack version.

The source code is a given, I have to submit that but I don't really see why I *have* to submit the existing animations. The whole point of AnimPack is a pack of all new animations, if there's new animations out there, it belongs in AnimPack & that's what coders should be using.

It's good to know there are other people out there that are serious about doing new animations & tbh, I could really use someone to run the AnimPack portion for the most part. The only thing I am claiming dibs on is the installers, manuals, & a few animations but I still have sooooooooooooooooo much stuff to do & I'm dropping all of it to do this AnimPack project. If any of you are interested in becoming staff or supporters, just let me know.

Anyway, I think we really need to have some results before continuing this discussion.

Well while I agree that we need some results here, there's more to this than just that. I apologize if some of my methods are not so pleasing to some of you, but walk a mile in my duelers shoes & you'll understand exactly where I am coming from. Trust me, I don't like it any more than anyone else (especially considering this is more workload on my end - not yours (not really)) but the worst case scenario is just not worth it to me.

Anyways, gameplan is important. This is a pretty big project & I think it's also important that we are all on the same page with all of this so there are no misconceptions or misinterpretations about anything.

New CM Standards Concept (Requires Hardcoding)
I wanted to run this idea past you guys & get some feedback. I'm personally a stickler for making sure that when a user joins a server, there's no cheating or abilities that are very similar to cheating available.

I'm not sure how aware all of you are with the stuff you can do with .sab files but you can do alot. You can increase the damage amount, the speed, the radius of the blade, all kinds of stuff & this is all server-side & it does not give any notification that any changes have been made (like there is when cheat mode is enabled). This is a big concern for me....

I want a CVar specifically for disabling all .pk3 files that contain modifications of .sab files (or possibly all .pk3 files if need be) aside from CM hilt packs. When enabled it does let CM packs (which have gone through standards) be used, depending upon which level of standards the CVar is set to. This checks the filesize for authenticity verification.

When set to...
0 = Disabled, any .pk3 may be used.

1 = Any level 1 Standard Hilt pack may be used. Level 1 hilts are basically the standard hilts, all hilts are *exactly* the same, they just look different.

2 = Any level 2 Standard Hilt pack may be used. Level 2 hilts are slightly modified but balanced hilts none-the-less, like some hilts (which are configured all via .sab files) may be permitted to allow the blue lunge & red forward slash in all stances, however, it does not allow the third specials to be used (both attack buttons at same time), etc; etc.

3 = Any level 3 Standard Hilt pack may be used, which in all reality are non-standard hilts but I may change the name to level 3 standards. These standards permit the blade to be positioned differently which is a necessity for some hilts such as the Chainsaw hilt (which positions the blade more to the right than the standard) & the Schwartz hilt (which positions the blade closer to the hand itself since it is a ring & not a normal hilted blade), etc; etc.

The beauty of this is the client has the availability to see what type of server whomever is hosting before they join where now, they have no clue. I intend on informing the public how they may filter out specific types of servers so that they view only the types of servers they would like to play on via the Cool Mods Manual.

I'm not exactly sure what is & what is not possible coding-wise for eliminating the use of possible cheating-like abilities via .sab files so I was hoping you guys could shed some light on this subject, give me your opinion &/or other commentary in regards to that.

Makes sense to me. Now you just have to find someone to do it. :)

I'm not exactly sure what is & what is not possible coding-wise for eliminating the use of possible cheating-like abilities via .sab files so I was hoping you guys could shed some light on this subject, give me your opinion &/or other commentary in regards to that.

Start pulling out the flags.

Leave the customizing ones and pull the balance changing ones.

Like so...

soundOn=yes
soundLoop=yes
soundOff=yes

saberLength=tighter limit
saberRadius=tighter limit

moveSpeedScale=NO!!!!
animSpeedScale=NO!!!
knockbackScale=NO!!!
damageScale=NO!!!
And ditto for the splash flags etc.

Also reduce damage for each blade after the second blade because as you know hilts support up to 7 blades.

I like the pulling the flag concept, this way it can still be secure & people may use hilts that aren't included in CM, however, this still doesn't answer my question in regards to the CM hilt packs. I don't change the damage or radius or anything like that but with certain hilts, as I said before, have specials set differently (no both attack buttons specials but lunge & rdfa in all stances) & I want the CM packs to be the ONLY packs allowed to make those kinds of changes.

Another thing is with the CM packs, I probably wouldn't decrease the damage amount for multi-bladed weapons. I would more than likely cripple those types of hilts differently via the CM packs. As for non-CM packs, then yes I suppose this would be the best fix for that. In all reality though, when this CVar is set to 1, those types of weapons should not even be available. It kind of defeats the purpose.

Is authenticity verification for the CM packs possible via the code?

The adding of the other attacks to all stances is rediculous, unneeded and unbalanced. In my opinion.

But I'd leave in the option of turning off certain commands.

And as far as limiting what they can change. I've always wondered if you can encrypt a pk3 like a zip or rar. And decrypt it in code.

Originally posted by keshire
The adding of the other attacks to all stances is rediculous, unneeded and unbalanced. In my opinion.Normally you can do 6 different specials with a single saber. The both attack buttons special is 3 since there is a different one for each stance, the lunge, the rdfa, & the ydfa.

With the way I am saying you can do it, you only have 2 specials; The lunge & the rdfa but I may change that to ydfa. It's a little different but I wouldn't say it's unbalanced. Lunge is the probably the most used counter-attack move there is & the new stance cycle speed is alot slower than that of JK2 - so that's a plus; But not having the both attack specials is taking away alot also.Originally posted by keshire
And as far as limiting what they can change. I've always wondered if you can encrypt a pk3 like a zip or rar. And decrypt it in code. That's not what I had in mind. This stuff needs to work in the base game as well, so this wouldn't fly with me even if we could get it working. I was thinking of having the code check the filesize. If anyone made any modifications to the pack, that would change; Especially if it the compression rate is changed specifically for throwing off the standard compression filesize.

The problem with checksum file protection is that someone can easily make the checksum for the .pk3s match by adding some fluff to the .pk3. So, that makes setting servers to "pure" totally useless.

Originally posted by razorace
The problem with checksum file protection is that someone can easily make the checksum for the .pk3s match by adding some fluff to the .pk3. So, that makes setting servers to "pure" totally useless. You lost me, I don't see why you think purity would be useless. We're not preventing other mods from being used, we're just making it so that the CM pack (which has been checksum verified) is the only pack that has permission to make certain types of changes via .sab files, like the different specials setup - that's all. The higher the CVar is set to, the more leanient the standards.

Again, the beauty of this is clients will be able to tell what kind of server this is before they even join & they can rest assured that no tampering has been made to the server.

Also, WinZip doesn't support filesize matching. Now I think WinARJ does but I don't think it's that exact. Either way though, it's more security. Unless anyone has another idea, this is what we've got to work with.

I know you like to cover your ass and all, but I really think this is all unneccessary.

If somebody wants to make the changes they want, they're going to find a way to do it despite any checks you put in place, especially if these changes are all stored externally.

As it is, I'd just CVAR the balance changing flags and leave it at that.

CVAR hilt_flags 0/1

*edit*
Oh I think i misunderstood what you were proposing. You want the flags in your hilts to work but not any hilts outside of your mod.

If that is the case, I really don't think you should mandate what hilts people can and can't use.

But an idea would be a seperate file with the hilt names that are allowed thier flags.

such as
coolhilts.txt

or one big .sab like the saber.sab that stores all the single player hilts.

coolhilts.sab with the all the combined hilt definitions.

I think the best solution would be to have levels of acceptable .sab settings that can be displayed/controlled with a cvar.

Doing anything for just individual files would be a pain-in-the-butt timewise and is sort of biased (it's not really fair to allow your packs to override the cvar control when everything else doesn't).

Originally posted by keshire
I know you like to cover your ass and all, but I really think this is all unneccessary.

If somebody wants to make the changes they want, they're going to find a way to do it despite any checks you put in place, especially if these changes are all stored externally.You easily seem to forget that most people out there are n00bs. They don't even know all of what they can do with the .sab files, when they do, the filesize check alone will be a big hurdle for even some of us to climb. We don't have any proggies that do exact matches down to the byte so that leaves them with hacking the code. How many of them do you think are going to be able to do that?

Sorry, I don't agree. This is neccessary because all someone has to do is add a .sab file that makes his reborn hilt do twice as much damage as all the other hilts & voila, you have an easy cheat or at least a decent example of how it can work. I feel it's our responsibility as the leading developers of this community to prevent this type of gamplay.Originally posted by keshire
As it is, I'd just CVAR the balance changing flags and leave it at that.

CVAR hilt_flags 0/1Well we may have no choice if this checksum thing doesn't work out. I'll do some investigating on how easy it is to do filesize matching later today.Originally posted by keshire
Oh I think i misunderstood what you were proposing. You want the flags in your hilts to work but not any hilts outside of your mod.Right but you have to realize that there are multiple levels of standards. The primary standard has all the hilts being the exact same.

Now that I think about it, we may have to make option 2 be what I had planned for option 1 & make option 1 be CM packs only because with CM packs the blades are in the exact same spot. That may or may not be the case with other hilt packs.Originally posted by keshire
But an idea would be a seperate file with the hilt names that are allowed thier flags.

such as
coolhilts.txt

or one big .sab like the saber.sab that stores all the single player hilts.

coolhilts.sab with the all the combined hilt definitionsAnd how is that any different from how it is now? What I am proposing is hardcode protection, your suggesting we bring it back into universal text files; Or am I misunderstanding?Originally posted by razorace
I think the best solution would be to have levels of acceptable .sab settings that can be displayed/controlled with a cvar.Ya I think you may be right. I was planning on having this with or without the filesize checking protection. I think what's going to really make or break that is the testing I do later on. If anyone can just fire up WinARJ & match up the filesize, it totally defeats the purpose.Originally posted by razorace
Doing anything for just individual files would be a pain-in-the-butt timewise and is sort of biased...Not really, this is a CM based mod & we would only be doing this for a few CM files.Originally posted by razorace
...(it's not really fair to allow your packs to override the cvar control when everything else doesn't)Not really, CM hilt packs have gone through standards, other hilt packs have not. That's the point.

Also, whether or not a CM pack would be usable or not would also depend on the settings of the CVar. If the CVar is set to "1", then the CM non-standard hilt packs would not be permitted to be used.

I have another question. Can the code search .pk3 files to see whether or not a .sab file is in it? I think you can see where I am going with this. This is a HUGE factor in this feature. I can't have sound mods, for example, be blocked because of .sab protection.

I really don't want to make this complicated & without me being an actual coder, it's harder for me to come to the most sensable solution so I am just throwing out some ideas here. I think for now we should just go with certain levels of standards. This would probably be the easiest way of going about handling this for now considering this is something I think we all wanted to do with or without the filesize chekcing. Once that is put together, we can possibly add on from there.

After I do some testing on the filesize matching, I'll go over all the .sab options & what levels I think those should be put at, post them, then we'll all go from there.

(please) Knock it off, this pk3 .sab argument is just garbage, and I don't think I'm the only one who thinks it.

If you're right, then pure servers and impure alike are going to be running rampant with crazy guys with saber nunchuks that deal too much damage.

Let's examine - where is the damage dealt? The server. What files are checked to see how much damage a .sab does? The server's files? I thought so.

I don't really care if I'm wrong, either, because this hacking is a non-existant problem.

I really don't see how we got from 'I'm going to make new animations" to this discussion. Talk about de-railed threads.

Please, can we talk about how many people think they will make new animations versus how many people don't think it will happen.

I vote that it'll happen.

Why not just hardcode the standards and then forget about the checksum stuff? It would be much easier to do and would result in better cheat protection.

Besides, this seems like a minor issue to me. I've yet to hear anyone complain about *.sabs being used for cheating.

Originally posted by Wudan
If you're right, then pure servers and impure alike are going to be running rampant with crazy guys with saber nunchuks that deal too much damage.The 2x the saber damage was an exageration. I was thinking the host would boost the damage in smaller amounts such as 10% or 15% which would be undetectable.Originally posted by Wudan
Let's examine - where is the damage dealt? The server. What files are checked to see how much damage a .sab does? The server's files? I thought so.I'm talking about a a CVar that when enabled, it protects against modified .sab files via hardcode - the server can't change that if the CVar is enabled; Unless the host is a coder, in which case you aren't really going to be able to stop them. At that point, all you can do is reason with them & inform the community on what type of mod they put out there.Originally posted by Wudan
I don't really care if I'm wrong, either, because this hacking is a non-existant problem.How do you know? Tell me you haven't gone onto a server & seen people take other people out on rather simple hits. Now I'm sure most of the time it's just head hit or whatever but the point is there is no way to tell. With this CVar enabled, clients are protected.

You can't say this is a non-existant problem because unless they have extremely increased the damage, there is no way to tell.Originally posted by Wudan
I really don't see how we got from 'I'm going to make new animations" to this discussion. Talk about de-railed threads.The animations need to be hardcoded, this is something else that should go in the hardcode.Originally posted by Wudan
Please, can we talk about how many people think they will make new animations versus how many people don't think it will happen.I wasn't aware that anyone was even doubtful. Granted, the process is taking longer than expected, & I apologize for that but I have to deal with this stuff at home before I can venture onto this. It's not optional for me, what about everyone else?

Look, if you don't like the idea then a simple "I don't like the idea, don't see the point" or whatever would suffice. Getting pist off about something isn't going to change anything. If you don't like it then don't use it but don't get pist off at me because I'm trying to make the game more secure or because I couldn't think of the best way of going about handling it on the first try. Calm down before you post please.Originally posted by razorace
Why not just hardcode the standards and then forget about the checksum stuff? It would be much easier to do and would result in better cheat protection.The mods need to work in base also, that's why. For now I think simply making certain .sab file options disabled & the higher the number, the more options enabled is the best way to go about handling this. As for this whole checksum bit, we'll see but first things first.

Also, I'm pretty sure all the stuff from OJP Basic will go in the AnimPack code (possibly the JAR features as well, nothing for sure on that yet). Is the value of g_saberdamagescale stored in a sets like CVar (so what it's set to can be viewed from the net)?Originally posted by razorace
Besides, this seems like a minor issue to me. I've yet to hear anyone complain about *.sabs being used for cheating.Why would they, unless people are setting the damage extremely high, they would have no clue - hell, the .sab stuff is set up VERY similar to how MoH is. Alot of times in MoH, the server will set a certain gun to do 0 damage instead of just removing it, you'll be using a gun for awhile not even knowing it's not doing any damage until you go to shoot someone in the head or something. Now granted, this would be pretty easy to spot out in Duel servers but what about FFA where there's no one watching each player?

Also, this wasn't very common place at first in MoH, as time went on it did however. Modifying .sab files isn't like writing code, ,pre & more people WILL eventually figure this stuff out as time goes on. I think we should offer some sort of protection against that type of gameplay.

The bottom line is just because someone isn't complaining about cheating, that doesn't mean there isn't people out there cheating. For all you know, you could have been playing with cheaters & not even known it. This provides alot more re-assurance that you are playing a fair game.