I recently got SoftImage|XSI specifically so I could start adding new animations for the new weapon type I'm working on (player animations not weapon), RA wants some new blocking animations & I was also thinking that we should bring back some of the old Quake taunts back into the game (flipping the bird or woteva). Now people can make these animations unaccessable via the game code if they choose not to have those things optional.

Anyways, I was thinking there should be a "OJP: New Animations" release. Now this would be for developers only obviously & everytime we add new animations, we put out a new version. The reason why we would do it this way was so each mod could use each others new animations. We should also make it so that which animations version they are using is noted in the mod docs somewhere.

From what I hear, Wudan & another developer are working on some sort of animations merging tool which would be useful but whether it is available or not, I do plan on doing whatever it is necessarry to make new animations available to all OJP supporters.

I just wanted to get everyones thoughts, comments, suggestions, etc; etc. regarding this. Let me know what you think people.

"Flipping the bird" should not be put in the game. It's not Star Warsy, and it's unsportmanlike. Putting it in would only cause problems.

Secondly, due to the nature of the code, additional animations would have to be packaged with the code distros or they wouldn't work in game at all.

Originally posted by razorace
"Flipping the bird" should not be put in the game. It's not Star Warsy, and it's unsportmanlike. Putting it in would only cause problems.LMFAO. Flipping off was in Quake & everyone loved it, I never heard a complaint about it 1 time - literally. I'll make sure there is a "clean-cut" version though, I'll just take those animation numbers & swap the animations with the Da Vinci pose or something.

Besides, I'd like to get past the whole "if it isn't Star Wars then it doesn't belong here" thing because there are a variety of games that would never have been created if everyone stayed in theme. This taunt adds alot of fun factor to the game, if I saw someone flipping me off in the game (especially if I didn't expect it), I would laugh my ass off.Originally posted by razorace
Secondly, due to the nature of the code, additional animations would have to be packaged with the code distros or they wouldn't work in game at all. Right, that's why this release would be for developers only. Developers would need to take the animations.gla & add it into their mod for it to work.

I plan on making AJK have 2 different types of play (or 2 different versions) with the firearm weapons, real guns & SW guns. The big difference between them aside from sounds & looks would be real guns cause bleeding, so you would need to bandage yourself in order to stop the bleeing. Laser fire is self-cauterizing & would be unneccessary.

Originally posted by Marker0077
LMFAO. Flipping off was in Quake & everyone loved it, I never heard a complaint about it 1 time - literally. I'll make sure there is a "clean-cut" version though, I'll just take those animation numbers & swap the animations with the Da Vinci pose or something.

Besides, I'd like to get past the whole "if it isn't Star Wars then it doesn't belong here" thing because there are a variety of games that would never have been created if everyone stayed in theme. This taunt adds alot of fun factor to the game, if I saw someone flipping me off in the game (especially if I didn't expect it), I would laugh my ass off.Right, that's why this release would be for developers only. Developers would need to take the animations.gla & add it into their mod for it to work.

Q2 also had an older audience and a different focus. I suppose that the animation could be useful for non-Star Wars mods, but it's nothing that I would put into Star Wars mod.

There's enough problems with people taking the game too seriously as is. Imagine adding the ability to flip people off to that. :P

In addition, it's totally not Star Warsy and goes against Lucas's vision of a kid friendly Star Wars. However, if you invented a Star Wars equivilent, I'd be ok with that.

Originally posted by razorace
Q2 also had an older audience and a different focus. I suppose that the animation could be useful for non-Star Wars mods, but it's nothing that I would put into Star Wars mod.I don't think it should depend on SW or not. It should be solely up to the client whether or not those types of animations should be displayed. Perhaps a client side CVar.

Matter fact, I will be replacing all mature taunts with clean cut taunts in the clean cut version, this way it doesn't look lame to others if people use them (which the da vinci pose would).Originally posted by razorace
There's enough problems with people taking the game too seriously as is. Imagine adding the ability to flip people off to that. :PI would laugh so hard.

The only thing people really take seriously is chat attacking & people who prematurely attack while someone is bowing, that's it. There are certain areas that should be gone over with the public as far as player ettiquete/sportsmanship goes & I do intend on covering these areas in CM.Originally posted by razorace
In addition, it's totally not Star Warsy and goes against Lucas's vision of a kid friendly Star Wars. However, if you invented a Star Wars equivilent, I'd be ok with that. The people that play JK are in the 14 to 26 yr old range. Very (& I do mean very) few are out of this age range. That's old enough to handle being flipped off or at least old enough to make the decision on whether or not those types of animations should or should not be permitted to be displayed to them.

Again, I will make a clean cut version but ideally the best way is to just have these animations in the Mature pack, this way clients can decide for themselves what they do & do not want to see & hear. The only problem I see with doing it this way is when the .gla is added to the mod pack in the custom folder, it will be used, not the .gla that's in the Mature pack which will be located in the "base" folder.

I suppose I could create a animations file for the base folder, it's not like its removing anything out of "base", it's really just adding onto it. Then any mods that want to use these animations will use this animations file (which goes in "base") & then whomever wants to use the Mature pack can & the Mature animations will be fully functional or mods could just use the Mature release of the animations & code a client side CVar that enables/disables the Mature animations.

Ideally the best way would be to have the Mature animations included in all the mods .pk3 file & have something included in the Mature pack that enables the Mature animations in the mod.

You can only really have one .gla for the humanoid. Any more and you're going to cause a nightmare when it comes to servers and for coders.

Just stick with one file, handling which animations are playable will have to be done in the code anyway.

Originally posted by razorace
You can only really have one .gla for the humanoid. Any more and you're going to cause a nightmare when it comes to servers and for coders.Why would it? As long as everyone is using the same animations .gla, it should be fine. All the animation numbers for everyone would be the same because it's based on the same file.

In other words, lets say I add 2 Mature animations which is #'s 20001 through 20030. Then I add the OJP Enhanced animations (for blocking & whatnot) & they are numbers 20031 through 20090, then I add animations for MB which takes up 20091 through 20130....

All 3 mods use the same animations file (not same copy, just same file), if any one of them needs a certain animation it's there; Or if there is a taunt in MB (which is clean cut) & an OJP user wants to use it (or their hilt .sab file calls for it), it has access to it in OJP etc; etc.

I don't see why you would think there would be any problems. There will of course be extensive testing on this but I highly doubt there will be any problems.Originally posted by razorace
Just stick with one file, handling which animations are playable will have to be done in the code anyway. Not entirely true. You can choose custom animations via the .sab files.

Besides, server-side only mods can add new commands to play these new animations. If they do not exist for the client, then nothing will be played; Just like with the .sab file.

Uh, you have to change code to add additional animations entries to the animation.cfg, if you don't, you're probably going to have all sorts of problems.

However, simply, adding new frames to the .gla shouldn't require code changes.

We'll need to update the animations cfg files when we add more animations to the .gla, now I haven't tested this yet but I'm pretty sure that will be enough for animations work in conjunction with .sab files, so the same concept should apply to server-side only mods being used in conjunction with the CM client animations mod.

As far as this goes for custom mods, again, I think mods like OJP & MB should use the mature pack version of the mod & just disable the mature animations by default via a CVar or have something in the mature pack enable those animations.

It really is up to each coder how they want to handle it with their mod. I think the community will feel that allowing them to make up their own minds is the best decision.

You couldn't have a server side only mod with new animations. It just wouldn't work since you'd need to have the new animation.cfg and .gla.

Originally posted by razorace
You couldn't have a server side only mod with new animations. It just wouldn't work since you'd need to have the new animation.cfg and .gla. I said "the same concept should apply to server-side only mods being used in conjunction with the CM client animations mod". It wouldn't be the server-side mod alone, it would also be the CM animations mod which I'm sure C1 would love to participate in.

Who is C1?

Anyway, it would defeat the purpose of a server side mod to do something like that since it wouldn't be server side only anymore.

Originally posted by razorace
Who is C1?Chosen One.Originally posted by razorace
Anyway, it would defeat the purpose of a server side mod to do something like that since it wouldn't be server side only anymore. Well the CM animations pack wouldn't come with JAR, it would be a totally seperate pack & I'm sure there are other coders who'd want to jump on this opportunity as well. If a person doesn't have the CM animations pack then they would see nothing & if they do, they would get the new animations.

You also have to realize, I haven't done any testing with this yet so keep in mind most of this stuff is still "on the drawing board". If I find out that the server is going to automatically download the animations file (which is pretty likely) then I might just toss the idea altogether.

The same concept applies to the new vehicles & whatnot, if the server is using them then you *have* to download them - I hate that, but it has to go in base otherwise only the 1 mod can use it which is a waste.

All of the downloading all depends on whether or not the server & client has their downloads on but still, I don't want those types of things to be downloadable. Yes, I realize disabling downloading via the server will remedy that problem but I don't *ever* want them to be downloadable.

I'm pretty sure that different animation .glas would trigger the pure filter.

You're making something simple be very complex.

1. To make new animations you have to be clever.
2. To get them in-game you have to be even more clever.
3. To utilize them in a mod to make them 'worth the download' you must be both creative and uber-clever.

Screw talk about 'flip-off' this, and 'crotch-grab' that - those aren't really 'enhanced' or 'basic' OJP - stand-alone mods can touch that if they want to - true enhancements would be 'filling out' the gaps in the current animations - better weapon-ready stances, better firing animations, etc.

First off, I CALL DIBS ON THE ANIMATIONS PACK :-o

RA said I had to actually post, so there it is man.Originally posted by Wudan
You're making something simple be very complex.Not really. I know what I want to do I'm just not sure how I'm going to go about doing it yet. Once I look into Softimage, I'll go from there.Originally posted by Wudan
1. To make new animations you have to be clever.
2. To get them in-game you have to be even more clever.
3. To utilize them in a mod to make them 'worth the download' you must be both creative and uber-clever.Considering how everything else works & how this *should* work, I highly doubt it's going to be rocket scientry to make happen. Most people do a half fast job or just don't think things through, so personally I think what you are considering to be cleverness is just common sense. At least for me anyways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm a freakin genius but I've been into gaming development for 10 years, the past 2 have been real serious. I'm not really worried about making this happen, the only thing I'm worried about is finding the time.Originally posted by Wudan
Screw talk about 'flip-off' this, and 'crotch-grab' that - those aren't really 'enhanced' or 'basic' OJP - stand-alone mods can touch that if they want to - true enhancements would be 'filling out' the gaps in the current animations - better weapon-ready stances, better firing animations, etc.What's wrong with doing them all? The old sk00lers (such as myself) would enjoy bringing the old taunts back & I intend to do so, along with a variety of other animations as well. If you don't enjoy the animations, then don't use them. Bottom line is it's better to have something & not need it than to need something & not have it. Unless there is some sort of cap on how many animations you can have, I'm not going to not include it "just because" or whatever.

What I am hoping to do is just have people create animations in 3DS Max & I can add them to the animations pack from there. Again, until I actually start checking out Softimage for myself, I really don't know for sure what is & is not going to happen. I should be getting into it within the next few weeks. I'm actually waiting for some of the Raven crew to get back from vacation so I can find out more about it before I even get started.

Please explain how common sense is going to help you put new animations in to a game when you have no skeleton for the models?

My words on this, opinions of course (like I gave in past subjects) since I'm not part of the team.

I agree with Razor here, all those are not "Star Wars".
Granted you can say people loved it in Quake2 (not that people would use them often, they would get railed or rocketed afterwards about 75% of the times), yet by saying so you're imediatly distancing both since JA is in no way a Q2 game since it includes Light Sabers (which the majority of servers use) and not just "you killed someone with your railgun slug which blew him up to tiny little pieces" kind of play; in fact not many people play JA with weapons, judging by the ammount of servers out there, including mine which is saber only.

New animations for new attacks and other stuff (Star Warsy stuff preferably) sure, Michael Jackson style crotch holds, flip-offs and so on aren't that nice for a Star Wars related game; if they were then I'm sure Raven would have included it themselves, although LEC wouldn't let them do it to begin with.

If you want OJP to be well respected and also to be recognized to be a good part of the Star Wars gaming universe you surely don't want those sorts of insultous animations to be included.

Just two cents from someone who wants OJP to succeed.

Originally posted by Wudan
Please explain how common sense is going to help you put new animations in to a game when you have no skeleton for the models? Quite a few skeletons came in the JK3 SDK. I believe they are in the .XSI files, now the original .XSI plugin that came with the JK2 SDK doesn't work on the new .XSIs however there are other plugins for XSI on the net that do work.

Keep in mind, without skeletons, no one could add models for JK3. Even if you didn't have a working plugin, there is info on the net on how to convert JK2 skeletons over to JK3.

If you need the plugin, just let me know & I'll email it to you. I'm sure you can find it on the net easy though.Originally posted by Darth Sun
My words on this, opinions of course (like I gave in past subjects) since I'm not part of the team.One of the nice things about OJP is everyone is apart of the team, not staff but team. Just because you don't produce code, models, or whatever, that doesn't mean you might not see something cool that eluded the rest of us. All you have to do is post about it. While concept design doesn't have the stress or workload as coding, modeling, or whatever, you wouldn't have code, or models, or whatever, without it.

In other words, it's a public forum man & we want feedback from everyone so don't hesitate to speak your opinion on something if you think you have a good idea.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I agree with Razor here, all those are not "Star Wars".
Granted you can say people loved it in Quake2...First of all, just because Quake 2 was mainly a firearm weapons game & JA is mainly a melee combat game, that doesn't mean these taunts would be any less useful, matter fact, it's all the more reason.

Secondly, let's be honest here. Everyone taunts every now & again while dueling. It's the virtual way of saying "bring it" & it's all in good fun. Tell me you wouldn't love to flip people off in mid-fight, I think that would be funnier than hell at times, especially if people didn't know that it was in there, but of course, they *will* know it's in there. I guarantee it'll be 1 of the highlights that people talk about. Not that I personally would consider it one if the "highlighted" features but knowing how the community is, they will.

Thirdly, the beauty about this is, if people do not want to see "Mature" animations - they don't have to. They can keep the clean cut version & they will see people doing the standard taunt & not the new one (at least that's the gameplan).

The thing that I am guessing is eluding alot of people is, just because the animations are included in there, that doesn't mean they *have* to get used. Hell, people can disable certain animations just by the .cfg files alone. The way I look at it, the more animations the merrier. It's more flexibility for the developers & the users.

As far as the "Its not Star Warsy" thing goes, I think that's crazy to limit yourself like that. That's like saying I shouldn't add non-Star Wars models to the Skins pack just because it's not Star Wars. Forget that. If the model is good quality or just a good idea, I'm adding it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If you want OJP to be well respected and also to be recognized to be a good part of the Star Wars gaming universe you surely don't want those sorts of insultous animations to be included.I plan on making 2 versions of the animations pack. A Standard version, & a Mature version. I already have a Mature pack for CM that adds a Mature version of Lady Vengeance (some profanity), I have more blade sounds added (still need to work on a clean cut blade), I am working on a Eminem & Dre model conversion from Quake 3 to JK3 to go in the pack, etc; etc; so I am hoping to keep the Mature animations there.

I will submit both versions of the animations pack to OJP, if RA wants to refuse the Mature version then that's his call. I'm doing both versions for CM either way.

Take any .XSI skeleton you please, go ahead and try to get an animation from XSI or MAX in to JKA. It's not bloody possible unless you know what the hell you're doing.

I know you're a clever guy, but tons of clever guys before you have ground their gears to dust and washed away with their own tears of frustration, long before these posts, or OJP.

You can have XSI, you can have 3dsm - you can have all the exporters and converters that you can possibly download - where the rubber meets the road, you'll need to take whatever you make and get it in-game, which just so happens to be the 'hard part'.

There are no HUMAN XSI skeletons for JKA. Corto made one, but it's not suitable for creating animations, just for weighting and modelling.

Mike Gummelt said we need Softimage in order to make these new animations, so I got it. I'm waiting for him to get back from vacation, email me & go from there.

No one knows exactly what they are doing with player animations. Instead of spending mind boggling hours of trying to figure it out on my own, I decided to go to the source. Yes, it is *possible* that I may never be able to produce animations for JK however, the Raven staff have spent time responding between other various developers in this community, I don't see why it would be any different from me. Especially after the CM release.

As for "getting it in-game", you're right, it's not possible. Not without a .gla importer & exporter anyways.

Originally posted by Marker0077
One of the nice things about OJP is everyone is apart of the team, not staff but team. Just because you don't produce code, models, or whatever, that doesn't mean you might not see something cool that eluded the rest of us. All you have to do is post about it. While concept design doesn't have the stress or workload as coding, modeling, or whatever, you wouldn't have code, or models, or whatever, without it.


Thank you; I'll participate in OJP through opinions very often then, I believe.


In other words, it's a public forum man & we want feedback from everyone so don't hesitate to speak your opinion on something if you think you have a good idea.
Secondly, let's be honest here. Everyone taunts every now & again while dueling. It's the virtual way of saying "bring it" & it's all in good fun. Tell me you wouldn't love to flip people off in mid-fight, I think that would be funnier than hell at times, especially if people didn't know that it was in there, but of course, they *will* know it's in there. I guarantee it'll be 1 of the highlights that people talk about. Not that I personally would consider it one if the "highlighted" features but knowing how the community is, they will.


Depends, I personaly wouldn't flip-off someone in JA and I never do a taunt mid-duel unless I wanna be cut in half; at the end of the duel is difererent, but I still wouldn't flip them off.


Thirdly, the beauty about this is, if people do not want to see "Mature" animations - they don't have to. They can keep the clean cut version & they will see people doing the standard taunt & not the new one (at least that's the gameplan).


Like Razor said, this brings the problem for "pure servers".
You either have one animation set or the other animation set, it's impossible to have both working at the same time since the "pure server" setting would detect they defer and kick off people with the diferent set of the server.
The idea is good, just impossible to put to work in JA since there's no way to seperate both unless all the OJP based servers run as "unpure", which I doubt will happen.


The thing that I am guessing is eluding alot of people is, just because the animations are included in there, that doesn't mean they *have* to get used. Hell, people can disable certain animations just by the .cfg files alone. The way I look at it, the more animations the merrier. It's more flexibility for the developers & the users.


The user and developer flexibility is good, but again the "pure server" issue comes to play since you can't just edit your animation.cfg and play in servers which have it.


As far as the "Its not Star Warsy" thing goes, I think that's crazy to limit yourself like that. That's like saying I shouldn't add non-Star Wars models to the Skins pack just because it's not Star Wars. Forget that. If the model is good quality or just a good idea, I'm adding it.I plan on making 2 versions of the animations pack. A Standard version, & a Mature version. I already have a Mature pack for CM that adds a Mature version of Lady Vengeance (some profanity), I have more blade sounds added (still need to work on a clean cut blade), I am working on a Eminem & Dre model conversion from Quake 3 to JK3 to go in the pack, etc; etc; so I am hoping to keep the Mature animations there.


It's a bit diferent adding non SW models from adding potentially offensive animations.
I personally try to use SWish stuff in JA, but if a good model from something non SWish appears I instal it anyway.

To make all of what I said shorter, new animations is a good idea, but JA's system renders your idea of having two seperate packs functioning simultaneously impossible, plus the fact not many people may like to see their opponent flipping them off or "Michael Jackson crotch hold" at them; also consider some SW fans which will most likely hate it.

Originally posted by Marker0077
Mike Gummelt said we need Softimage in order to make these new animations, so I got it. I'm waiting for him to get back from vacation, email me & go from there.

No one knows exactly what they are doing with player animations. Instead of spending mind boggling hours of trying to figure it out on my own, I decided to go to the source. Yes, it is *possible* that I may never be able to produce animations for JK however, the Raven staff have spent time responding between other various developers in this community, I don't see why it would be any different from me. Especially after the CM release.

As for "getting it in-game", you're right, it's not possible. Not without a .gla importer & exporter anyways.

I did spend mind-boggling hours figuring it out. I did correspond with Gummelt, Monroe, and Ste Cork (who maintained the format source for JK2) on this.

Are you referring to the article Mike Gummelt wrote on it?

Originally posted by Darth Sun
Depends, I personaly wouldn't flip-off someone in JA and I never do a taunt mid-duel unless I wanna be cut in half; at the end of the duel is difererent, but I still wouldn't flip them off.I taunt people in mid-duel every day & very rarely do I get sliced up for it but I play Duel mode only. Anyways, whatever.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Like Razor said, this brings the problem for "pure servers".
You either have one animation set or the other animation set, it's impossible to have both working at the same time since the "pure server" setting would detect they defer and kick off people with the diferent set of the server.
The idea is good, just impossible to put to work in JA since there's no way to seperate both unless all the OJP based servers run as "unpure", which I doubt will happen.RA was speculating, he doesn't know that & until we have a newly compiled .GLA & do some testing, none of us will know. There's a few different ways to go about doing this & nothing is for sure at this point.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...also consider some SW fans which will most likely hate it.Just a difference in opinion between the 2 of us. I've been dealing with public relations for GF for almost 2 years up until a few months ago & I think people will go nuts over it. I wouldn't pursue it if I felt otherwise.Originally posted by Wudan
I did spend mind-boggling hours figuring it out. I did correspond with Gummelt, Monroe, and Ste Cork (who maintained the format source for JK2) on this.Cool, hope it works out well for ya.Originally posted by Wudan
Are you referring to the article Mike Gummelt wrote on it?He said that we need Softimage in an interview at some point, I think this was pre-JK3.

Anyways, it's a goal of mine & I intend on making it happen one way or another. I'm just not pursuing it heavily at this point for a variety of reasons but I eventually will, probably some time within the next few weeks here.

The Softimage software is around 4 to 10 grand so I can understand why alot of people don't have it... you might want to email me on this. There are certain things I don't want to post publically. All my contact info is in my sig, I use ICQ & MSN IM most of the time.

Originally posted by Marker0077
RA was speculating, he doesn't know that & until we have a newly compiled .GLA & do some testing, none of us will know.
It wasn't speculation, it won't work, period.
Trust me on this, I did minor mods for Quake 3 (and previously for Quake 2, but this one didn't have the "pureness" of servers before) and the minor diference in the PK3 files (in this case it would be the animation GLA) is a CRC diference, thus the Quake 3 engine prevents the player from going in since it detects PK3 diferences compared with the server (presuming the server is set to "pure" like the majority of them, however it would work in "unpure" servers).

Believe me, I go a long way with the Quake engine functionality, I just don't know enough to do big mods to this extent but I know how it works very well.

Originally posted by Darth Sun
Believe me, I go a long way with the Quake engine functionality, I just don't know enough to do big mods to this extent but I know how it works very well.I've been modding for over 10 years. I was working on TC mods since the days of Doom & Heretic, this isn't my first rodeo man so please listen to what I am telling you. I have done some pretty extensive testing with JK2 so I'm sure the same stuff applies to JK3.

Yes, it is *possible* that it will require a download, however, that does not mean that it will not run without it. It might work out so that unless someone is actually using the new animations, it may not go for the download; In which case, it won't start the download until the player connects & then there is a map change.

The "base" folder does not function the same way a custom folder does. You can have a blank .pk3 file in the "base" folder & the server will not attempt to upload it to the client but if you put that same blank .pk3 file in a custom folder, the server will attempt to upload it to the client. The "base" folder only uploads what you *need*, custom folders upload all .pk3 files that are in that folder.

In all reality, the server should be using the new animations .pk3 file so I do think it will attempt to download it just like you & RA are thinking it will, however, that doesn't mean the server will not function in pure mode if downloading is disabled. Purity makes it so you can't use files that the server isn't using & the only time I've ever seen the server not function in pure mode when a client doesn't have a file the server does is when the missing file is where the .qvm/.dll file is in there. That does not automatically mean that same concept will apply to the animations file.

An another note, we might just be able to seperate the clean cut version from the mature version all via the .cfg files (which I don't think I will be doing because it leaves room for allowing the Mature animations for those who may not want it).

Also, purity is not as solid in JK as it is in Quake 3. I've joined a Duelers 1.2 for JK2 pure server (client & server-side mod) with Duelers 1.2 & Duelers 1.3 in my duelers folder & I was able to access new features that were implimented in Duelers 1.3.

So you see, things are not always as they are appear & until you actually test it, you do not know for fact what will or will not happen.

You still didn't get it, so I'll tell it diferently using what you said.


Yes, it is *possible* that it will require a download, however, that does not mean that it will not run without it. It might work out so that unless someone is actually using the new animations, it may not go for the download; In which case, it won't start the download until the player connects & then there is a map change.

That itself defeats the purpose of having a seperate animation pack.

Let's say I am using the "clean" animation set and I go in a server which has the "flip-off" animation set.
My client would start to download the "flip-off.pk3" so I could be pure to the server since I didn't have that one, I had the "clean.pk3".
Eventually I would join once the download is complete, as expected, and I would start seeing what I didn't wanna see, the flip-offs and the crotch holds.

You see, it's possible yes, but they will override themselves.

If someone has their download ability disabled (like I do) then they are kicked since they can't match the server "purity".

Purity does what you said, but if the client doesn't have an important file like the animations (granted these would be included in a sort of system file, thus making it a client thing) it would eventually throw the server out of synch.
Think about it, and I know what you said is possible of going in a server without the required files (I saw it happen in my own server) it would have weird results for the clients who don't have the files and many even complained to me about it; it was either stances they couldn't select, stance colors not working, invisible saber blades (due to the RGB mod), unsynched animations (due to diferent lengths for taunts and so on) and I could go on and on.

Trust me, wouldn't work well, even though it would be possible while giving loads of problems.
If you want to do an animation pack do a single one, with flip-offs or no flip-offs, just do one.
At most these flip-offs would be a server Cvar like some mods already have ability to disable certain "emotes", this way if people don't want the animations they look for a server with the flip-offs disabled even though they are still installed.

Now, completly offtopic and directed to Marker007:
I also did Doom mods and so on, but believe me that it's completly irrelevant for this case since Doom was 100% unpure, fully hackable and easilly altered to give you some weird advantages in online play.
I'm only talking about pure Quake 3 engine editing/moding/using since it's the only thing relevant for this discussion; we're not trying to see which one of us is "leet" and not and who has been in this more than the other, irrelevant.

I hope you read all of this.

Originally posted by Darth Sun
Let's say I am using the "clean" animation set and I go in a server which has the "flip-off" animation set.
My client would start to download the "flip-off.pk3" so I could be pure to the server since I didn't have that one, I had the "clean.pk3".
Eventually I would join once the download is complete, as expected, and I would start seeing what I didn't wanna see, the flip-offs and the crotch holds.Well you might not want to see a naked tavion running around but if the server has that model with a bot running, you're going to download it.

If it's an unpure server, it might not even download the thing at all. I don't think purity being on or off will make any difference though.

I will be including an actual manual in winhelp or HTML format (depends if it's win or linux/unix). This is something I will cover there. Hell, I may even be doing server presets in which case I'll be disabling downloading altogether. People should have sites for that kind of thing.Originally posted by Darth Sun
You see, it's possible yes, but they will override themselves.

If someone has their download ability disabled (like I do) then they are kicked since they can't match the server "purity".Yet again, YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT. I already explained to you the scenario with Duelers in the previous post, animation files & actual code files ARE NOT the same thing & even if it does act the same, purity in JK2 is a bit dodgy to begin with. There *are* all kinds of possibilities, until we do some testing on this we do not *know* anything for sure.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Trust me, wouldn't work well, even though it would be possible while giving loads of problems.I'm certainly not going to problem solve a problem that I am not 100% sure is even going to be a problem in the first place.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If you want to do an animation pack do a single one, with flip-offs or no flip-offs, just do one.The animations pack is a resource for developers so I am doing both any way you look at it. Coders can choose which animations they want to include in their mods .pk3 files.

As far as doing just 1 pack for CM to be distributed publically, I may do that. I'm not 100% what it is I am doing exactly & I won't until I have something to work with.

Look, I'm not saying that what you are saying isn't going to happen or isn't even a likely possiblity but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility that it won't work out that way & it will function okay with 2 different packs.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...it's the only thing relevant for this discussion...The relevancy was that I had been modding for 10 years. I knew how this stuff worked then, I know how this stuff works now. There have been plenty of times people (& sometimes even myself) have said "oh ya, that will definitely work out that way - no doubt" & blah blah blah & it doesn't. DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING, unless you have *actually tested it*, you do not know.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I hope you read all of this.Likewise.

I'll make this my last post in this thread since I don't like to talk to a wall for long periods of time and here I'm not saying you're a wall but merely saying you're not listening to what I'm saying that I have seen from EXPERIENCE.

I talk about this because I KNOW how it works and I KNOW it will do that.
Didn't you read I said people complained about troubles in my JO server because of this exact thing of them having one file (or no file) and me having others?

If the server is running Naked Tavion I won't see it, basically because I have downloads turned off, I will just see Kyle.
If the server is running server sensitive stuff then I'm merely booted from the server for not having the stuff, it's that simple.

Purity on and off WILL make a diference; it did a diference in JO, it did a diference in Quake 3, it did a diference in Elite Force, it did a diference in Medal of Honor, it did a diference in Soldiers of Fortune 2 and it makes a diference in JA since some friends of mine can't even join my JA server unless I set it to unpure!

Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
If we go by age, we both apparently work on this since we're 11 (judging your Avatar says you're 21), the diference being I'm 23, meaning I work on games for longer than you do if this is of any relevance, which is not since Doom doesn't work in any similar way to Quake 3; back then Doom editing was through hacks of the executable itself to alter animation tables, weapon effects and so on, pwad creation with new maps, iwads with new sprites for the characters/monsters and didn't go much further than that till ID Software released the Doom source code to let people do their own ports.
Quake and Quake 2 are similar to Quake 3 though and in these I have experience since I modded for them, even coded and did models and skins for Quake 2 and I also coded a bit for Quake 3.
Games 10 years ago did not work the same way of games from 4 years ago and even less like games of today.

I repeat, the best way is to do one single pack of animations with all of them and just doing a sort of cvar to turn off the "offensive" animations if people, and the server admin itself, want to turn them off.

I will now rest my case in this thread since I don't want this to turn into a flame war for something as small as an animation pack, granted things are already a bit heated up as it is.
If you somehow make this "two animation packs" idea work, congratulations Marker007, but from personal experience I doubt it will work.

I apologise to everyone beforehand for whatever I could have said that goes against anyone's opinions and/or personal experiences.

Edit: Bleh, double post. o_O

Originally posted by Darth Sun
I'll make this my last post in this thread since I don't like to talk to a wall for long periods of time and here I'm not saying you're a wall but merely saying you're not listening to what I'm saying that I have seen from EXPERIENCE.Well, you have a funny way of not calling this not like talkin to a wall but I understand completely what you are talking about. It is frustrating when you tell people something & they do not listen to what you are telling them.

Since this whole ordeal is rather pointless without ACTUAL FACTS, I decided to run some tests of my own to settle the matter. The tests proved that you were right & you were wrong...

If you connect to a server running a map that you have, it will not start the download & will allow you to connect without the new animations, however, it does start the download (& does not permit you to connect without it) upon map change, regardless of whether you have the map or not. Now you could just reconnect but I totally do not like having it set up like that.

I more than likely will be going with just 1 animations pack. I'm hoping I can just use different .cfg files to settle the matter in "base" or perhaps I might just have the Mature animations run in a custom folder (this would cause complications for server-side only mods though) but we'll see how it goes. Until I actually have a way of producing the new animations, I'm not going to worry about it.

Anyways, I'd just like to point out that this is EXACTLY why I said what I said. You might *think* you know something to be fact but UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY TEST IT OUT YOU DON'T.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Didn't you read I said people complained about troubles in my JO server because of this exact thing of them having one file (or no file) and me having others?Servers may download models that have bots running, but it doesn't download sound mods or weapon mods; Not out of "base" anyways (custom folders download *all* .pk3 files).

Since no one has ever modified the player animations & made a working .pk3 of them, you can't say you know FOR FACT that it will go one way or the other.

Now all I did was put everything that was in the _humanoid folder into a seperate .pk3 & it does everything we needed to test out the downloadability. There are obviously still other factors to worry about, such as various animations not included in the assets attempted to be ran on clients whom do not have the pack.

Again, I'll worry about this bridge when I come to it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Purity on and off WILL make a diference; it did a diference in JO, it did a diference in Quake 3, it did a diference in Elite Force, it did a diference in Medal of Honor, it did a diference in Soldiers of Fortune 2 and it makes a diference in JA since some friends of mine can't even join my JA server unless I set it to unpure!#1 What I said was that the purity system in JK is dodgy, I didn't say it didn't work.

#2 I made over 250 mods for MoH:AA & I do know FOR FACT that the purity system in Allied Assault DID NOT WORK. Not within the first year of the game at least.

Now perhaps Spearhead or any of the other add-ons have a working purity system but Allied Assault certainly does not, or at least did not. I left MoH shortly after SH was released because I knew my centerpiece mod would never run out of a custom folder & I hated jimmy rigging the thing to make it work. The point is I wouldn't know about SH & the other packs because I didn't stick around. I wanted to mod a game for a company that cared about its modding community.

#3 What does your friends not being able to join your server have anything to do with how new animations will function in a pure server? Does your server have new animations? It probably doesn't, therefore it doesn't apply.

You could have a weapon or sound mod on your server & they could connect just fine, yet if you have a new vehicle on your server (& someone is using it) then they will not be able to connect unless they have the file or download it from the server.

Different files function in different ways. Since there are no new animations out there you CAN NOT SAY YOU KNOW **FOR FACT** what will or will not happen. You can say "I'm pretty sure it will go this way" but that's not what you said, you said "I know for fact" which was not exactly the case.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If we go by age, we both apparently work on this since we're 11 (judging your Avatar says you're 21)...My avatar says that was me WHEN I was 21, which was 5 years ago. The 77 in my name is my year of birth.

Anyways, who's older doesn't mean anything. Just because I have been doing this longer than you, that doesn't necessarily mean I know more than you & it certainly doesn't mean I'm better. All I was trying to point out was I've been doing this for a long time & I've been around long enough to realize you *MUST* test everything.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...meaning I work on games for longer than you do if this is of any relevance...That's a little hard to believe since I've been around since day 1. I was doing this sort of thing before the internet was big & we had to go off of just the books that id had released to the public.

Anyways, the last reply applies to this one as well. I don't feel like getting into this dick measuring contest with you, you believe whatever.Originally posted by Darth Sun
...which is not since Doom doesn't work in any similar way to Quake 3...For the most part no but there are certain things that still work the same considering Quake was built off of Doom. It's nothing significant but it can be useful knowledge in some cases.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I repeat, the best way is to do one single pack of animations with all of them and just doing a sort of cvar to turn off the "offensive" animations if people, and the server admin itself, want to turn them off.This only applies to those who will be adding the pack to their mod such as OJP, MB, etc; etc. We're not changing any code in base - no way.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I will now rest my case in this thread since I don't want this to turn into a flame war for something as small as an animation pack, granted things are already a bit heated up as it is.Agreed. I've expressed my opinion & vice versa. We'll just leave it at that.Originally posted by Darth Sun
If you somehow make this "two animation packs" idea work, congratulations Marker007, but from personal experience I doubt it will work.There's more than 1 way to skin a cat. I'm sure it can be done, the problem is figuring out the best way of going about handling it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
I apologise to everyone beforehand for whatever I could have said that goes against anyone's opinions and/or personal experiences.There's nothing wrong with having a difference in opinion, you just need to watch rude commentary.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Edit: Bleh, double post. o_OIf you hit the edit button, there is a delete option at the top.

I think it would be advisable to put all the animations, "old school" (whatever you want to call them, doesn't matter to me) in the same .gla/.glm (whatever it uses, I haven't made any models for JA/JO yet) and just switch out the animations.cfg. I admit I haven't done any modding for JA or even any quake 3 based games, but to me this seems like the obvious solution.
If I understand it correctly animations.cfg is just a file dictating which animations are linked to which frames in the _humanoi file? If so it seems like the best solution to me.

Sorry, I was probably a bit too heated in my last post regarding the whole animation thing.

I'm going through a little personal problem which I won't go into detail and I guess I unloaded the problem a bit on that thread.

Anyway, I'll show now the things I know about pureness with JO and JA from what I have seen from being a dedicated server admin for these games.

With a pure server this is what happens:
- PK3 files with VEH files, client DLL files and animation files are downloaded by the client if they don't have them, if the player has downloads turned off he is kicked off the server.
- PK3 files with models and skins don't have download enforcement, so if the player has downloads turned off he is still allowed inside the server.
- PK3 files with maps are only downloaded if they are being used and the player doesn't have them, till they show up he won't download them if he doesn't have them.
- PK3 files with maps and with VEH files are downloaded if the player doesn't have the VEH files (case of KOTOR Flight School and Bespin Flight Arena), although as you probably guessed it's the VEH (system files) which are trigering the download and not the map itself.
- PK3 files with new NPCs are not flagged as an enforced download, if you spawn one I'm not really sure what happens since I never tested it.
- Curiously enough, in unpure servers the VEH PK3s are sometimes not enforced, this causes the client without the VEH files to be kicked off the server the moment a VEH they don't have is spawned.
- PK3 files with new sabers, new glows and so on are not flagged as an enforced download, so people will see default blades or see no blade in the case of the RGB sabers since they use a whole new saber blade file.

That's all I found out about how the pureness works in JO/JA.

Diferent GLA will have an enforced download flag in a pure server, but, as many pointed out, the animations.cfg might actually not have that flag.
As mentioned many times by me, Marker007 and some others, having one GLA and a diferent CFG might make it work, but remember that the CFG must be in a diferent PK3 or the CRC check will notice there's a diference and try to download the whole thing again since the GLA is marked as a system file.
It'll be a matter of testing to see if the animations.cfg will be downloaded or not for being diferent.

Again I apologise for my "flamish" posts, I didn't mean to offend Marker007 nor anyone, I've just been having a somewhat rough week.

This now is really my last post in this thread, sorry.

P.S.: Ah, thanks, never noticed the delete button in the "edit" post function. o_O

Originally posted by babywax
I think it would be advisable to put all the animations... ...in the same .gla/.glm... ...and just switch out the animations.cfg.My only concern is mature animations being shown to those whom do not want to view it. If I can get away with accomplishing that by doing this that way then sure but I don't think I will be. Having the only thing stopping the Mature animations from being displayed is the .cfg file leaves too much room to play Mature animations to those whom do not want to view it. I could be wrong on that but again, until I have something to work with, I'm not too concerned about it.Originally posted by babywax
If I understand it correctly animations.cfg is just a file dictating which animations are linked to which frames in the _humanoi file? If so it seems like the best solution to me.Ya I think so.Originally posted by Darth Sun
Sorry, I was probably a bit too heated in my last post regarding the whole animation thing.Likewise on the apologies. Don't worry about it, nothing that bad was said & even if it was, I can handle it.Originally posted by Darth Sun
- PK3 files with models and skins don't have download enforcement, so if the player has downloads turned off he is still allowed inside the server.The models themselves are not enforced no but if the server is running a bot with a model that the player doesn't have, it goes for the download. I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it will boot you from the server if you do not have downloads turned on.

As far as the other files goes (like what gets downloaded, when & why), if the server is using the file it will hit the client up for a download. There are only certain types of files that will not even allow you to connect to the server such as maps, vehicles, & appearently animations. Again, if the server is running a bot & you don't have that model, I know it hits the client up for a download (normally like the animations was, downloads on map change or if you don't have the map & have to download anyways) but I don't think it'll disallow clients to connect if they don't have the bot file.

As for the different CFGs, I can't quite put my finger on it but there is alot of room for allowing the mature animations for those who may not want it. I suppose it's better than placing the thing in a custom folder, I mean, if the server has mature animations enabled the client is going to go that route no matter what... I think I'm just going to use the Mature animations pack as a resource for coders mods. This is just becoming too problematic for such a little thing.

As far as "this really is my last post" goes, it's a free forum man. Speak your opinion if you like, we don't mind.

Just go with one pack and just ask modders to add a mature content cvar. It makes much more sense than physically filtering stuff by altering the .gla or the cfg file.

Well that whole fiasco was about the CM animations pack that's going in the client pack (which is for the public use & goes in "base") which is why it took a bit more thought to figure out.

For coders, I'm doing 2 different animations packs (clean cut & mature) & it's up to them to decide what they want to use. If a coder doesn't want those animations in there at all, there's no sense in causing more work on their end for something they're going to completely disable anyways.

Just go with one pack, period. It's going to be a monster d/l and we don't want to force users to have to download multiple versions. The modders will have to make code modifications to add each animation anyway. They can pick and choose the clean/dirty versions then.

I will more than likely just go with one pack for the client side pack distribution. Having more options is the best way to go obviously but whether or not it's worth the cost is something I'll have to decide during testing, which won't happen until I have something to work with.

There are a variety of ways of going about handling what it is I'm looking to accomplish. I may just be able to put the different animation .cfg files in the Mature pack (& as long as that doesn't produce a server side download & most importantly, force clients to use that pack) then voila! Problem solved.

Anyways, this whole thing is pointless without something to work with so until that glorious moment, I'm not worried about it.

I just wanted feedback from everyone on their thoughts, comments, any animation ideas they think would be good, etc; etc.

From what I hear, Wudan & another developer are working on some sort of animations merging tool which would be useful but whether it is available or not, I do plan on doing whatever it is necessarry to make new animations available to all OJP supporters.


Poke
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107116)

This also works in JA, just get the JA skeleton by Corto (was linked in JA Modelling), and use the already given .car file in the SDK

lol, thanks Ask. I actually went looking for this thread because I didn't really check it out the first time you sent it my way & then when this project came about, this was the first place I wanted to go & checkout but not only couldn't find it, I couldn't remember who told me about it. I knew it was LF staff but forgot which one, Chris was my best guess & obviously it wasn't him.

Anyways, thanks man, I'll be sure to look into it... this time.

Marker0077 LATE EDIT: The link to the .xsi doesn't work. You &/or these guys should have put something like this on some mirrors or at least 1 solid one. Know how I can get a copy (contact info in sig)?

Also, I think now I am going to do a developers pack as well. Just a bunch of tools for developers with a variety of programs & probably some more thorough tutorials as well; Imparticularly with 3DS Max. Something to think about.

This may be helpful for your dev pack.

http://files.jediknight3.com/redirect.php?dlid=23&PHPSESSID=cb25c02364ddb29d2c772d487b6152e6)

MD3 import/export
GLM import
XSI import/export (includes the newest xsi importer)

for max 4.2

It was something I pulled together back when JKA was still beta.

Ya I have all those man but thanks anyways. TBH, I'm not really thrilled with that new XSI importer. I use Max 5.1 & my animation bar gets all messed up when I use it. Now I'm sure it's nothing serious & I probably will include it in the pack with a warning but I'd prefer just creating my own JK3 skeleton than using that plugin. The chance of it messing something up is just not worth it to me.

All the models I am working on will be for JK2 & JK3 so I am hoping to find or create a script that will convert models from JK2 to JK3.

I've yet to use the new importor also. I just didn't need to, becuase I had a working skeleton before the model tools were released.

And a script shouldn't be too hard. The differences aren't much.

Just be sure you get that lhang_bone thing right. ;)

I apologize for not being online for such a long time but my internet went out, so I didn't have much of a choice. Anyways...

I've been talking with Ask & Corto in regards to their merging program. This will probably be the way I go about doing the animations packs but I am still going to look for alternative methods. I'm going to get in contact with quite a few of the Raven staff members in regards to this topic but I am somewhat skeptical on whether or not they will help. I am obviously hoping for the best.

The animations pack for use in "base" is definitely out because in order to add animations, you *must* change the source code & there's no way in hell I'm changing the source & putting that in "base"; That's the specific reason why custom folders were invented in the first place. We could change existing animations from one thing to another but the point of this project is to add animations, not remove (or change, however you want to phraze it) existing ones. Anyways, This should settle the dispute regarding the mature & clean cut versions of the pack, which will be enabled/disabled via a server side cvar (& probably a client side one as well, like the dismemberment is set up) & both of which will be defaulted to off.

I will probably begin on it sometime within the next few weeks. I apologize about the wait time but I have a LAN system that I need to re-do & that's probably going to keep me tied up for at least a week, possibly two. At that point, I think I am going to get the client pack & server pack out just to get some peoples attention, then possibly work on the animations pack from that point.

Is it just me or do you think maybe this project should be called Cool Packs? :-)

Anyways, I need staff people (/me takes a number), mainly modelers for Skins Pack A (I need modelers to import models, weight them, & get them in-game because I am making some changes to some existing models by improving some meshes (very few) & converting them to JK3 for JK3 & tying the default skins to the meshes for JK2 models). I think once the client pack & server pack is out there, people will be more interested in what CM is about & have more incentive to help out. We'll see.

Since new animations would have to be in pair with some animation code changes, I suggest you just let it be a part of OJP.

You are trying to make new animations without taking the advice or heedings of people who've already done what you're trying to do (http://www.mt-wudan.com/dragon24.jpg).

Thanks, and good night.

Originally posted by razorace
Since new animations would have to be in pair with some animation code changes, I suggest you just let it be a part of OJP. This was always going to be apart of OJP, there's no way I'm not going to contribute this, it's just waaaaaay too big of a thing to not make available to the community. It's just that it will be apart of CM as well.Originally posted by Wudan
You are trying to make new animations without taking the advice or heedings of people who've already done what you're trying to do (http://www.mt-wudan.com/dragon24.jpg).

Thanks, and good night. Have no clue what you are on about. I got that you are trying to say something but if it's forget about trying to make new animations for JK3, then ya, I'm not listening.

You don't know what it is I can or can not do or who I do or do not have contact with. Any way you look at it, 2 heads are better than one. I appreciate your "heedings" but I don't give up so lightly. Especially when I haven't even begun yet.

If you really want to make this happen, I suggest you encourage people to finding away, not discouraging them. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you mean well but I'm not about to give up just because no one else could make it happen. I've talked with Ask, I've talked with Corto. I don't think this is going to be that big of a thing.

You really don't know what I'm talking about, do you?

Skill aside, it's not easy to do - I know it's possible (to add new animations), I'm just speaking from experience when I tell you that it's not easy.

Go ahead and show me that you can get a new animation in-game, and we can cut the logistics discussion and discuss what animations need added/fixed.

Well like I said, I've talked with Ask & Corto. They have already got this working with JK2 & there is a problem with JK3 from what Corto said but after talking with Corto, I get the impression the guy doesn't even have JK3. He kept going on about the animations.cfg file for each model which in JK3, there is only 1 animations.cfg (in _humanoid foler) plus he was saying that you could just add stuff into the animations.cfg & the modified .gla & it would work which is *not* the case with new animations. Perhaps there was some miscommunication there but I'm not spending my time trying to prove myself worthy to the guy, which was the impression I got from him.

As far as the problem with doing JK3 animations goes, he said something about the skeletons being a different size. Appearently there is a problem with Ask's proggy with JK3 stuff & he doesn't know what to fix, so I will do what I can to figure out what the real deal is, get everyone informed & get the problem taken care of.

Anyways, the animations end of CM is taking a step up. I am redoing all the computers here on the LAN at the homefront but afterwards, the animations end of this is going to be my #1 priority because I don't know how much longer I am going to be online on a regular basis. If I can at minimum, pave the way for everyone else on this then that would obviously be benificial for all of us.

I'll be sure to keep everyone posted on the progress of current happenings with this.

Corto didn't write the program, ASk did. Corto, ASk and I worked out the technical stuff to get a working JK2 skeleton in XSI format.

You just need to recreate the JKA skeleton in XSI format, and leave the first frame of your animation in the 'base' pose (also called the DaVinci Pose), run it through carcass andmerge in with ASk's program.

It's that easy - now go do it.