I never stated that there aren't good ideas to be found, just that a far majority of it is just chaff.

A simple public poll is not going to show the wishes of the wise 1% of the population.

A simple public poll is not going to show the wishes of the wise 1% of the population.
Well, it would actually be .0025% of the population, according to your earlier posts. :D

I agree with Razorace in that it will generate a lot of replies, many of which would be just too much effort for the gain. Perhaps just a general poll, like "What portion of the game needs to be fixed/improved?". A few options would be: saber combat, force powers, etc. It would show us where most people had a gripe, and let us concentrate on that. Razorace, you don't have to read replies to it if you don't want to. Let Marker do it. :)

You can do polling all you want. It's just not going to really effect the submissions.

You know when you play FFA or Duel modes & the name always comes up red only? Well why not make it so that in non-team based modes (aside from Power Duel), the names come up colored just like they are viewed pretty much everywhere else (I am referring to when you have a person in your crosshair & their name appears).

In team based modes, the red team names should obviously be in red & the blue team names should obviously be in blue.

This was something that one of the Duelers users asked to be added into Duelers & I believe it was but still, this is a good idea for Basic.

I don't think that's such a good idea, unless it can be toggled client-side. I mean, it's awful to look at people running around like this.

See what I mean?

Ok, now that the SDK is out, how about some kind of MP NPC fix.

I've been hosting some co-op games for the last 3 days for some friends of mine and while the maps arent' designed for it, I was surprised that it worked at all. I'm thinking that if you build a map specifically for co-op(meaning that you include simple scripts that work in MP)it has a lot of potential as a game type.

The only problem(besides things like complex scripts not working) I've encountered are the NPC's. Stormtroopers usually work ok, but saberusers are hyperactive. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I'm thinking that it has to do with the saberanimation in MP being a lot faster. If you could include a cvar like the SP cvar g_saberanimspeed (is that right?) that might fix some things.

Maybe i'm wrong about the saberanimation speed, but in general it would be cool to have some improved NPC's in MP. I'm thinking co-op could even make a simple ladder map pretty fun.

Agreed, however until someone makes a Co-Op map specifically for MP, I can't really test what needs to be done.

well, just spawning a couple of NPC's in a duel map should give you an indication of the current state of the AI.

If you want to test it some more I suggest just booting up Hoth2 in mp. That works reasonably well until you hit a closed door that can't be opened because the script isn't triggered properly.

Also T3_rift works reasonably well until you get to the same door problem. This one should indicate the bug's in the Reborn NPC's quite well.

So basically a good co-op map, or at least a fully functional co-op map would be a map withouth closed doors, filled with non scripted NPC's.

Originally posted by gothicX
I don't think that's such a good idea, unless it can be toggled client-side. I mean, it's awful to look at people running around like this.

See what I mean? It's no different then looking at the scoreboard & seeing their names. You can see them just fine & it looks better. Like I said before, this was done with Duelers for JK2.

I there are 5 or so people running around with those colors, in an FFA, and I'd see those during comabt, it'd be awfully distracting.

Now I don't know about Gamespy3d since I've never used it (I didn't know the difference between it and GSA or GS until I read your rant in the other thread), but:

There are ALWAYS Siege servers. It's the third most popular gametype (behind FFA and Duel).

MOST servers are playing with All Weapons and SOME force powers disabled.

This is how it's been in ASE for almost 2 months, and how it is in the fixed in-game server browser.

This isn't JK2 my friend. In JK2 it's all sabers only force/NF dueling or "honor" crap in FFA. This isn't JK2, this is JA, different animal.

JK2 has more game modes, but they are all pretty low except for FFA & Duel (with CTF going up and down). Again, different community.

Besides, if you say nix support for Siege players or gun players, you're just trying to shoe-horn JA into a JK2 clone community.

What's the point in that? No offense, but sounds like you're one of those "Jedi only" purists. Sorry, but Raven didn't make for you and nobody else!

Uuuhh. Who are you talking to?

I think he got his windows mixed up or something. It looks like he's replying to another thread.

Anyway, since he brought up Siege..... How about adding some gun tweaking support. I'll say this right now, I don't like the guns in JA.
I've been playing some CS for a while now, and after playing some Siege games with JA guns, I can't say i enjoy it. If someone could increase the accuracy and projectile speed of some of the guns I would probably enjoy it a lot more. In CS or RTCW a normal person isn't just able to dodge incoming fire that easily and I don't think anyone in JA should be either, except maybe Jedi(but personally I think they should just use their lightsaber to protect themselves like in the movies).

I say go for it. It's time consuming so I probably won't be doing it any time soon but it would make a great addition to the project.

WhiteShdw,

I think you will be interested in Movie Battles II - my OJP-based mod project for JKA. Amongst other things, I will be adjusting the Siege gametype to play in a more CS-esque type manner.

Also, I'm going to be altering the classes avaliable - adding a lot of SW specific ones like Droideka, Gungan, Sandpeople, Wookies etc. as well as the current MB I classes - Mandalorian, Hero, Soldier and of course Jedi.

The website is being worked on now, I'll post a link when it is ready...

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
WhiteShdw,

I think you will be interested in Movie Battles II - my OJP-based mod project for JKA. Amongst other things, I will be adjusting the Siege gametype to play in a more CS-esque type manner.

The website is being worked on now, I'll post a link when it is ready...

Cool. I'll keep an eye out for it.

Originally posted by gothicX
I there are 5 or so people running around with those colors, in an FFA, and I'd see those during comabt, it'd be awfully distracting. Do you think red only names are distracting too? I don't mean to be sarcastic I'm just saying, I've never heard anyone say that before.

Anyways, there is a CVar built in JK2 to make the player ID come up in the center of the screen or at the bottom left I think, I'm sure it was passed down to JK3 as well.

Either way though, I've used it, it's certainly not anymore distracting than where the new on-screen text is printed in JK3. If you can deal with that, colored names is nothing.

Maybe we could just have a client side CVar for enabling/disabling it. We'll see.Originally posted by Kurgan
Now I don't know about Gamespy3d since I've never used it (I didn't know the difference between it and GSA or GS until I read your rant in the other thread), This is just an FYI...

I did some testing to see if GS3D had more servers than ASE & at the time they did but I recently did it again & the ASE server list totally blew the GS3D list out of the water.

The problem is GS3D can do tons more stuff, the main thing is the custom filters. You can make a filter for any specific type of server you like all varying upon the CVars each server has showing (i.e. g_forcePowerDisable, # of players, g_gametype, etc; etc.).

My solution is to take the server list from ASE & import it to GS3D which works out wonderfully, especially considering there are some servers in GS3D that are not in ASE.Originally posted by Kurgan
There are ALWAYS Siege servers. It's the third most popular gametype (behind FFA and Duel).

MOST servers are playing with All Weapons and SOME force powers disabled.

This is how it's been in ASE for almost 2 months, and how it is in the fixed in-game server browser.Yes but Siege has problems, at least with me anyways. Maybe it's because I'm a Win98 user, I don't know but when I mess around in the UI menus too much my computer locks up. So I lose interest in Siege pretty fast but I love the Swoop bikes.

Anyways, I didn't see that before because of the restricted server list I was getting from GS only. Now I get it from all the ASE sources & GS too.Originally posted by Kurgan
This isn't JK2 my friend. In JK2 it's all sabers only force/NF dueling or "honor" crap in FFA. This isn't JK2, this is JA, different animal.Not really. I can see where you are going with the "different animal" as far as Siege is concerned, that's a big improvement, but most people still just play FFA & Duel. I myself play Duel & it's not such a big change that I would consider it a "different animal". All they really did was make JK3 like JediMod with better duals & staff. To each their own opinion I suppose.Originally posted by Kurgan
JK2 has more game modes, but they are all pretty low except for FFA & Duel (with CTF going up and down). Again, different community.Actually I think Holocron & Jedi Master & all those game modes are still in JK3, they just don't make them accessable via the main menu probably because no one played it.Originally posted by Kurgan
Besides, if you say nix support for Siege players or gun players, you're just trying to shoe-horn JA into a JK2 clone communitySorry, you lost me here.

I'm guessing "nix" is Unix/Linux & if that's the case, why would you not make your mod "nix" compatable? They are a much better server OS to use, which is why people use it in the first place.Originally posted by Kurgan
What's the point in that? No offense, but sounds like you're one of those "Jedi only" purists. Sorry, but Raven didn't make for you and nobody else!Ummm, what's the point in what? Name coloring? It adds fun factor.

How did you get "Jedi only" purists out of that? FFA is the leading gametype & even though I don't play it, this is something that would improve it a little.Originally posted by razorace
Uuuhh. Who are you talking to? He was clearly talking to me at first but the last 2 paragraphs lost me a bit. Good to know I'm not the only one. :-)Originally posted by WhiteShdw
I'll say this right now, I don't like the guns in JA.
I've been playing some CS for a while now, and after playing some Siege games with JA guns, I can't say i enjoy it.This is the #1 concept for the "Action Jedi Outcast" mod I had in mind. The problem is a mod of this caliber will take a team of coders & I don't plan on pursuing this until at least CM is released.

Games like CS, Urban Terror, etc; etc. all originated from Action Quake 2 & you can call me old fashioned but I must say I prefer the original to this day & I plan on shaping AJK around AQ2.

CS is way cool but it's not worth dealing with all the cheaters; Besides, the HL code for firearm attacking is crap. It doesn't do firearm rounds individually, it does them in groups meaning damage isn't taken on a player until whomever is firing either misses or stops firing.

Example:
You can have person 1 with 1 health & person 2 with 100 health. They both start shooting at the same time. Person 2 hits person 1 first & they both unload a full clip which is enough to take off 100 health but since person 1 stopped firing (or missed a round) first, person 1 wins = gh3y.

The saber code in JK is similar to this as well. 2 people can not do damage to each other at the exact same time meaning if 2 people lunge at the same time, the person who lunges secondly would win because the first persons saber would only do damage until the second persons saber started making contact; Which is why you never see any draw duels. This is also gh3y.

Anyways, getting back on topic, I don't want to leave all the details about AJK here (just due to post size) but some of the cool features will be you can kick firearm weapons out of peoples hands with the standard double jump kick, there will be various items & weapons, each one has their own unique advantages & disadvantages, etc; etc.

The way I see it, if you can't take the force powers & lightsabers away & have yourself a game worth playing with just the weapons alone - you're doing it wrong. If I can make this happen then the Jedi vs. Merc mode should be fabulous, especially on these new JK3 maps where you can throw vehicles into the mix.

Originally posted by Marker0077
The way I see it, if you can't take the force powers & lightsabers away & have yourself a game worth playing with just the weapons alone - you're doing it wrong. If I can make this happen then the Jedi vs. Merc mode should be fabulous, especially on these new JK3 maps where you can throw vehicles into the mix.

You pretty much sum up my feelings right here. So far I've only been playing JK2 and JA for the sabercombat. If it had some improved weapons(no more of those standard Quake style weapons) and weapon physics, I and I'm sure plenty of other people would enjoy it a lot more. That would also help the other game types. I'm sure Siege would be the most populair gametype if it could compete with games like CS or RTCW. Adding sabercombat would just be icing on the cake then.

The saber code in JK is similar to this as well. 2 people can not do damage to each other at the exact same time meaning if 2 people lunge at the same time, the person who lunges secondly would win because the first persons saber would only do damage until the second persons saber started making contact; Which is why you never see any draw duels. This is also gh3y.

That's not 100% correct. Yes, one saber will hit first, but that's the nature of most computer programming, the game engine can only do one thing at a time.

However, these scans are done many times per second for each saber, so as long as the hits aren't lethal, they will both take damage.

When the saber hits are lethal, whoever does their saber attack scan first will do the damage and instantly kill their opponent. This prevents them from doing their attack scan and kill the other player. There's a way to fix this (make the sabers do damage for a few seconds after death), but I imagine this sort of thing was so rare that Raven just ignored it.

Originally posted by WhiteShdw
I'm sure Siege would be the most populair gametype if it could compete with games like CS or RTCW.It wouldn't compete with CS. Last I checked RTCW can't even compete with CS which is a shame.

CS is a league all on it's own. Lucasarts would have to do some advertising in order to make something of that caliber become reality. Actually, they would have to implement it into the base game. Most people don't play mods, they check the game out via a demo, maybe play it in a store, not to mention to the fact of all the people who don't even know about mods, etc; etc.

It would definitely improve the Siege aspect & would get more people interested. Personally I think I am not the only person that Siege crashes on which is another big drawback to the gametype.

Even if you did get Siege with these weapons & not crashing, I still think FFA would & will always be the reigning champ of gametypes. It's that way with MoH so I would imagine it would be no different here. Although, I think Siege is much better than the MoH OBJ gametype.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
Adding sabercombat would just be icing on the cake then.I see it reversed tbh. SW to me has always been & will always be about using the lightsaber.Originally posted by razorace
However, these scans are done many times per second for each saber, so as long as the hits aren't lethal, they will both take damage.That hasn't been my experience playing online. There's been plenty of times where someone hits someone else & it's plain as day that they were hitting the person & because the opponent started hitting them second the first opponents damage stopped but like you said, it can only do 1 thing at a time which is perhaps what I am thinking of. Either way, this should be fixed.

Another thing that is gh3y is when you hit a person, it's plain as day you hit the person, & it doesn't count it. This is more common among the high pingers & I am thinking that perhaps when this happens to low pingers it's due to packetloss or a lag spike etc; etc. Is there anyway to resolve that?Originally posted by razorace
There's a way to fix this (make the sabers do damage for a few seconds after death), but I imagine this sort of thing was so rare that Raven just ignored it. it sounds like it's more than just that though. It's not just on death, it's also when you're alive & 2 people are attacking at the same time.

If it can be fixed that would be fabulous.

Most of the hit detection "issues" are the result of:

1) Lag
2) non-Kyle player models
3) Too low of a sv_fps setting

There are somethings that I can try to see if it will improve the hit detection but it will take a while to impliment.

Actually, they would have to implement it into the base game. Most people don't play mods,


Ermm - last time I checked, CS started out as JUST a mod.

Personally, I think most JKII / JKA mods are too involved with just jazzing up existing gameplay, rather than trying to make a totally new type of game...

....in fact, anybody trying to do anything too 'different' is told by a good section of the current playerbase 'you can't change that!' - and then they go and download the next admin mod that let's them /amsit - calling it the greatest mod that ever existed!! lol

...I'd say that's the No.1 reason why you don't see mods like CS (or DoD, or NS). Just plain lack of desire amongst JK modders to make a game like that in the first place - an attitute that is perpetuated by the playerbase itself...

Originally posted by Marker0077
It wouldn't compete with CS. Last I checked RTCW can't even compete with CS which is a shame.


I know. I think RTCW and/or DoD(Half Life WWII mod) are at least as fun and perhaps more fun than CS. You can tell that Siege mode was fashioned after RTCW's objective mode. The only difference is that with RTCW you have much better weapons and maps.

JA Siege mode just uses weapons from the SP game, which is crap. They should have things like weapon classes as pistols, rifles and sniper weapons. And it should have more than one weapons per class. For pistols you could have the standard pistol, the bryar gun, the Han Solo pistol(that one is different than the standard right?) and perhaps the dual Jango pistols, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. For rifles you can have the battledroid rifle, Clonetrooper rifle, standard stormtrooper rifle et.. . CS has this, so does RTCW.

This whole idea of using all the weapons that the Sp game has, is old fashioned I think. MP is much faster and more competitive and the weapons should reflect that.

And it should have more than one weapons per class. For pistols you could have the standard pistol, the bryar gun, the Han Solo pistol(that one is different than the standard right?) and perhaps the dual Jango pistols, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. For rifles you can have the battledroid rifle, Clonetrooper rifle, standard stormtrooper rifle et.. . CS has this, so does RTCW.


I totally agree.
...this are the kind of weapons I will be including in MB II - not just the SP game weapons. In fact I will be removing most of the SP copies...

Is there any type of gravity gun in the Star Wars universe? Hell, if Half-Life 2 has it why can't we? ;)

have it act like the rancor/wampa attacks. It sends out the player's r_hand tag (which is what grabs the enemy) and slams them around a little ala grip.

of course this isn't a minor addition

Before I get into the replies, 2 new ideas to add.

#1) Make a second bow emote of the existing one but it goes twice as fast. The current one takes too long but I don't want to remove the original.

#2) Make all emotes available all the time, meaning you can do any of the dual emotes from single etc; etc. Especially the original JK2 taunt because I don't know about the rest of you but that's what I use most of the time. It's a nice fast emote that you can use in the middle of a duel.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Ermm - last time I checked, CS started out as JUST a mod.Exactly, *started out*. CS didn't get as big as it is today until it went retail, which would be the exact same concept as implementing it into the base game.

Day of Defeat went retail also but when was the last time you heard of a mod going retail? Aside from Sierra, no company puts mods out there retail so I wouldn't hold your breath on Lucasarts doing what Sierra does, especially considering that they would get more money from this to write their own code.

For the most part, they care more about the single player than they do the multiplayer. Don't get me wrong, they care about the multiplayer but not as much as single because single is where the majority of their money comes in with this game (& probably all or most others as well).Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Personally, I think most JKII / JKA mods are too involved with just jazzing up existing gameplay, rather than trying to make a totally new type of game...

....in fact, anybody trying to do anything too 'different' is told by a good section of the current playerbase 'you can't change that!' - and then they go and download the next admin mod that let's them /amsit - calling it the greatest mod that ever existed!! lolPeople get used to something & they like it that way. I still play Action Quake 2 to this very day.

It's not that you change something, you have to make it known so when people start playing your mod, they know WTF they are doing & when something happens they know why. If you leave them in the dark, they'll lose interest *real* fast but even if you did make a nice manual that tells everyone everything, you think most people RTFM?

People, for the most part, are just plain lazy. You have to create eye candy & invent new ways to keep them interested, otherwise they won't be.

As for the admin mods, all they are doing is pretty much staying with the base game (back to the "most people don't play mods" thing) & adding a few new features to it. With admin mods, no one has to download anything; Hell, lots of people don't even know they are playing a mod'ed server to begin with.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...I'd say that's the No.1 reason why you don't see mods like CS (or DoD, or NS). Just plain lack of desire amongst JK modders to make a game like that in the first place - an attitute that is perpetuated by the playerbase itself...That's not it for the most part IMO. If that was the case, everyone would be playing Duelers for JK2. It's easily the best client & server side mod for JK2, if the main thing you are after is the dueling experience, which most people are.

You have to know how to pimp off your mod & keep people interested. One of the big reasons why OmniMod got so big is because Jason did an update pretty much every week, so it was always in the new files list. Now of course it's annoying to deal with all the new versions when it's time to play, however publicity-wise, it was a smart thing to do because when you came on to whatever website, it said "new version of OmniMod" right there, as it did with all new files.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
You can tell that Siege mode was fashioned after RTCW's objective mode.MoH (Medal of Honor) came out before RTCW did & it uses an OBJ gametype, but that's not important.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
JA Siege mode just uses weapons from the SP game, which is crap.The existing firearms are crap, yet again, back to the "Action Jedi Knight" mod.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
And it should have more than one weapons per class.Not really, it should have a primary & a secondary. Some classes should have a third firearm but that's about it.

Siege crashes for me most of the time when I am in the GUI menus, so I don't have that much experience with the gametype until I figure out what all the commands are for console.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
For rifles you can have the battledroid rifle, Clonetrooper rifle, standard stormtrooper rifle et.. . CS has this, so does RTCW.RTCW is a class based game, CS is based on choosing your weapons on startup - that's different.

I think I know what you are referring to, useful weapons. This goes back to "Action Jedi Knight" mod which I'm not sure if I posted in this thread but I know I've posted in this forum about a few times.

In a nutshell, each weapon has it's own unique & distinct advantages & disadvantages. There's some other cool stuff like being able to kick firearm weapons out of peoples hands, there's items, which like the weapons, have there own unique advantages & disadvantages, etc; etc.

Unfortunately, a mod of this caliber will take a team of coders & is not something I plan on pursuing until after CM is on the shelves. I'm too wrapped up in CM to be getting into that right now & TBH, I spend to much time on the forums as is.Originally posted by WhiteShdw
This whole idea of using all the weapons that the Sp game has, is old fashioned I think. MP is much faster and more competitive and the weapons should reflect that.There's nothing wrong with using the weapons from SP if they each had there own unique & distinct advantages & disadvantages but they don't so it's lame.

MoH (Medal of Honor) came out before RTCW did & it uses an OBJ gametype, but that's not important.

I'm sure it does, but I've never played it. And I don't think I know anyone who has. I think RTCW is more popular and therefore think they used it for inspiration.

Not really, it should have a primary & a secondary. Some classes should have a third firearm but that's about it.

I agree with that, but what I'm talking about is being able to select the weapon for a class. Being able to choose which pistol or which rifle you want to use. CS has this and the last time i played RTCW(which was a long time ago) every class could choose their secondary weapon as well. Medics and LT's could choose from 3 different SMG's and I think soldiers could even choose a flamethrower or minigun.

Exactly, *started out*. CS didn't get as big as it is today until it went retail, which would be the exact same concept as implementing it into the base game.


CS went 'retail' because it became big enough to justify it - off it's own steam. CS was one of the most played (in fact, I'm fairly certain it was the most played) online game BEFORE it went to retail...

CS was sucsessful because IT WAS AND IS A GOOD GAME! It always amazes me how many people forget that small point! lol
(whether it's personally to your taste is a different argument)
...forget the kiddy whiners (the JK2 / JKA community can't exactly look down on it in that department!), and forget the cheats (I'll admit that IS a problem that you could argue falls down to the creators of the mod, but the game itself can be viewed seperately)

...the fact is that Counter-Strike did not pimp itself to death to get where it did..

...if got there because it is a well designed, well executed game and (at the time) the gameplay was fairly unique.



That's not it for the most part IMO. If that was the case, everyone would be playing Duelers for JK2.


How can you compare HL -> CS and JKII -> Duelers?!!
HL and CS were essentially two wholly different games! Duelers is an 'enhancement' of JKII gameplay. I'm sure it's a very good, very worthwhile enhancment, but it's not a NEW GAME!
..this is exactly my point. Practically no JKII modders are interested in taking the basic building blocks of JKII and making a brand new game out of it -they are mostly far to busy making 'enhancement' mods for the already existing gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not totally knocking enhancement mods. They serve a useful purpose for the existing JKII playerbase, and you can get good ones as well as bad ones...
...I'm simply answering the question of 'Why are there no CS-level type mods for JKII'. Enhancement mods will never be packaged up as a new game - because they are not really new games. THey are enhancements of the existing game.

In short, if you want to make a JKII mod at THAT kind of level, the first thing you have to do is actually aim to do it. i.e. NOT make yet another enhancement mod...


One of the big reasons why OmniMod got so big


...this also indicates that we are talking about totally different scales. The reason OmniMod was - what - big? Big in what sense? Yes- it was a relatively big 'enhancement' mod for existing JKII players. But it does not even compare to 'CS' big.

..if you think the answer to making a CS-like mod for JKII is to make bigger and better Omni-mod's - well - all I can say is

a. good luck to you ;)
b. You may as well try and get to the moon by making a really BIG ladder!

Originally posted by Marker0077
#2) Make all emotes available all the time, meaning you can do any of the dual emotes from single etc; etc. Especially the original JK2 taunt because I don't know about the rest of you but that's what I use most of the time. It's a nice fast emote that you can use in the middle of a duel.

Already done. (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119138)

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
CS went 'retail' because it became big enough to justify it - off it's own steam. CS was one of the most played (in fact, I'm fairly certain it was the most played) online game BEFORE it went to retail...CS didn't go real real big until it went retail. It was easily the best mod for HL & there were alot of players, but you didn't find the tens of thousands of CS servers you do today until it went retail. It had at least a thousand players, maybe even a couple of thousand players before it went retail but it is literally in the tens of thousands range today. That's due to retail distribution mainly; Not that all of those copies are retail, but the retail box on the shelves alone is a killer way to pimp the mod off.

You also have to realize that the Half-Life player base in the first year totally blows the JK player base out of the water to this very day. Back then there were at least a few thousand people playing online (HL & all its mods). There's almost 1,500 people playing JK (that's JK2 & JK3 put together) today.

Besides, not to take away from the mod or anything but it's not exactly saying much considering most people didn't play the valve (i.e. base) game that much. There were people playing it but people enjoyed Action Half-Life (which totally sucks now) when it first came out more than they did the valve game. Playing the base game, with most games, is like drinking hard liquer straight up; You could but it's awful. Most people add other ingredients to it to make it better, just like people do with mods. Personally I just see JK as a glorified Quake mod which is why no one really makes a TC out of it, but that's a different topic.

Realistically, there were no other good mods with Half-Life so naturally they all went to CS (again, I'm not taking away from the mod, it's good & I was a big CS player for quite some time). There were some that were okay, but not real good. Not until DoD came around (which I still hate the sniping aspect of, the coming out of scoped view while strafing crap).

The only reason why I don't play to this day is due to the cheaters. It's just not worth the effort.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
CS was sucsessful because IT WAS AND IS A GOOD GAME! It always amazes me how many people forget that small point! lolWell of course the mod is good, that goes without saying & is totally beside the point. The question of whether or not it was good wasn't even an issue.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...the fact is that Counter-Strike did not pimp itself to death to get where it did..I wouldn't say it "pimped itself to death" but it certainly did a bit of advertising in quite a few places, especially when they came out with the first couple of versions.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...if got there because it is a well designed, well executed game and (at the time) the gameplay was fairly unique.You believe what you want. You can't expect people to play what they don't know about - that's what pimpin it off is all about.

You also have to realize you are comparing this to a TC, which is one of the highest forms of eye candy.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
How can you compare HL -> CS and JKII -> Duelers?!!
HL and CS were essentially two wholly different games! Duelers is an 'enhancement' of JKII gameplay. I'm sure it's a very good, very worthwhile enhancment, but it's not a NEW GAME!You totally missed the point there. The point was you can put a good mod together, if you don't pimp it off & do everything else you can to keep people interested in the project, they're not going to stick around.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
..this is exactly my point. Practically no JKII modders are interested in taking the basic building blocks of JKII and making a new game out of it -they are mostly far to busy making 'enhancement' mods for the already existing gameplay.I'll agree with you there. Originally AJK (Action Jedi Knight) was going to use real guns & not these SW weapons but no coder could see past that. So I am ditching that for the main game & was planning on creating a conversion mod to make that happen; This way, people can see/hear it how they like. The only real problem with that is with laser fire, you won't bleed. You would with real gunfire (in which case there is a bandage button which leaves you unarmed for a few seconds to stop the bleeding).Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
...this also indicates that we are talking about totally different scales. The reason OmniMod was - what - big? Big in what sense? Yes- it was a relatively big 'enhancement' mod for existing JKII players. But it does not even compare to 'CS' big.OmniMod was big in the sense that it was the #1 client & server-side mod for JK2 (i.e. most used). Duelers & OmniMod are both JediMod based but Duelers doesn't have half the bugs OmniMod does, it doesn't have the abusive admin commands, it has a non-interferance code (when in a private duel you can only see, hear, & touch the opponent just like the two of you were the only ones in the room but you can still read everyone elses text), it has a totally new duel mode code which allows multiple duels at the same time that pairs up the better players with the better players, worse with the worse, etc; etc. I mean Duelers just totally blows OmniMod out of the water; Yet OmniMod remained #1 for the time it was around (until Jason messed up & pissed off Asty & got it removed from JK2Files.com). That *should* tell you something.

Pimpin' ain't easy but somebody gotta do it. ;-)Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
..if you think the answer to making a CS-like mod for JKII is to make bigger and better Omni-mod's - well - all I can say is

a. good luck to you
b. You may as well try and get to the moon by making a really BIG ladder!Making a CS-like mod was never something I was even thinking about, not even originally with AJK; Well, maybe halfway there with AJK but everyone is too scared or whatever to go out of the Star Wars theme. So I have to adjust with that.

Ya, you totally missed what I was saying there. All I was saying was that OmniMod was #1 for JK2 in the time frame it was around; Of course then again, there really was no other game in town until Duelers came around. Since Lee doesn't know anything about PR or pimpin' it off, I don't see it doing any better in JK3 than it did in JK2 which is a damn shame. Lee lacks business ethics & has some other flaws but the man is a good coder & made a good mod - I can't take that from him. That's the main reason why I am going to bite my lip & help pimp it off for him. I'm not exactly happy about it TBH but it is the proffessional thing to do IMO, so that's what I am doing.

but you didn't find the tens of thousands of CS servers you do today until it went retail. It had at least a thousand players, maybe even a couple of thousand players before it went retail but it is literally in the tens of thousands range today.


Well, of course it got EVEN bigger once it went retail. I'm not questioning that. I'm just stating that it did very very well without being a retail game. And I noticed you haven't disupted the fact that CS - even when it was a 'non-retail' mod was just as popular - if not more popular - than many / any 'retail' base games at that time.

Bottom line - CS did not find it's sucsess WHEN it went retail. It found it's sucess before then, and then the fact it went retail just took it from there to where it is today - stupidly popular...!


I wouldn't say it "pimped itself to death" but it certainly did a bit of advertising in quite a few places, especially when they came out with the first couple of versions.

The point was you can put a good mod together, if you don't pimp it off & do everything else you can to keep people interested in the project, they're not going to stick around.


I would say CS's efforts in these 'pimping' areas were - average.
NS, as a counter-example - as far as I'm concerned - pimped itself far more than CS ever did. (Again, I mean BEFORE it went retail) When I first started playing CS, there wasn't even an official webiste! (That I was aware of).
I just downloaded it from some file server, and then I had to pick up the rules from drips and drabs from other players.

NS on the other hand had a very well put together official website, forums and proper progress updates before the first version was released...

Yes, you have to pimp your mod to a certain extent. Of course this is true. Your right, no one can play a mod they don't know about.

But this idea that the most popular mods got where they were mainly because of their PR is not very accurate to the truth I'm afraid. A good game does NOT have to pimp itself 'to death' to survive. It just needs average amount of 'pimp' ( ;) ), and then the quality of the game will speak for itself...


You totally missed the point there.


Nope, I haven't. The question is why are there no CS-level type JKII mods out there. Your answer is 'pimp more'. Sorry, but that's just in-correct. It's not even actually about the 'quality' of the mod either - although this is obviously a factor. ...it's also about what the mod aims to do in the first place. It's about the mods concept.

You could have pimped Duelers till your tounge fell out of your head - and it still would never, and COULD never, have reached the levels of something like CS or NS. THis is obvious. Duelers 'enhanced' JKII gameplay. It was not a new game.

CS and NS are NEW games built on the HL engine. This means that games like CS and NS appeal to people BEYOND the 'base-game' community. People who didn't give a toss about base play re-install the game just so they can play the mod (I know I did that for CS, and eventually NS).

Enhancement mods - on the other hand - don't do that. They only appeal to the CURRENT player-base, who want to play they game with some 'improvements', or in a slightly different way.

So - I haven't missed any points. My point is the ACTUAL reason why there are no JKII mods at the level of things like CS.

You point is 'pimping can help your mod'. This is true, of a CS-level mods or any other mod, but your point doesn't get to the heart of the issue. It's a side issue - at best.


Making a CS-like mod was never something I was even thinking about, not even originally with AJK;


OK - well - this is totally my point. You have to 'aim' to make that kind of mod in the first place. 'Pimping' it is also worthwhile, but the concept has to know where it wants to go in the first place...

THis is, personally, what I am trying to do with Movie Battles II (TBH, this is only a working title. THe name will almost certainly change nearer release time).

Now, will I succeed?! Heh, probably not! But I think JKA is owed at least an attempt by SOMEBODY. And since no-one else is voluentering, I'm stepping up to the plate ;)

..plus, I'm having a blast working on it anyway. So it's worth trying in any case...

I just want to state this before you start doing any replies. I didn't want this to lead to a side rant, all I was doing was trying to inform everyone of some helpful ideas, not debate the legitimacy of them. If you don't agree with anything then fine, you're more than entitled to your opinion & you can do what you like but I don't want to continue with this debate after this post because it's totally off-topic & it's now beginning to change the topic of the thread so I want to end it. It's somewhat rude to everyone else to continue pursuing it, therefore, this is my last reply on this topic.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Well, of course it got EVEN bigger once it went retail. I'm not questioning that. I'm just stating that it did very very well without being a retail game.The mod is great, no doubt about that but when it comes to the amount of players using the mod it's an unfair comparison. #1 a real TC is one of the highest forms of eye candy, so that's 1 thing to keep people interested & #2 Half-Life has a much higher player base than most games.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
And I noticed you haven't disupted the fact that CS - even when it was a 'non-retail' mod was just as popular - if not more popular - than many / any 'retail' base games at that time.I only compared it to the JK player base, which is VERY low compared to most games.

Believe it or not, JK2 or JK3's player base (not both, 1 or the other) alone is not much higher than the Quake 2 player base. MoH is has somewhat died out & has around 8 times the player base of JK2, JK3, or Quake 2 today.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
I would say CS's efforts in these 'pimping' areas were - average.
NS, as a counter-example - as far as I'm concerned - pimped itself far more than CS ever did.Well I don't know about that. I do know you heard about CS on all HL sites, that's a hell of alot of pimping if you ask me. As for how much NS pimped itself off, I don't even know what NS is, what is it?Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
But this idea that the most popular mods got where they were mainly because of their PR is not very accurate to the truth I'm afraid. A good game does NOT have to pimp itself 'to death' to survive. It just needs average amount of 'pimp', and then the quality of the game will speak for itself...First of all, I didn't say you need good PR for the mod to make it. All I said was Lee didn't have good PR but now that I think about it, it's not as bad as I accidently made it seem in that post. Everything else I said still stands though.

Secondly, I also never said "most mods got to where they are" or anything like that. I talked about OmniMod & Duelers a bit but not other JK mods & as for HL mods, I only talked about CS for the most part because for most of the time it was the only at least decent mod for HL.

Anyways, when I was talking about needing to pimp it off, I was referring to JK mods, not HL. It's not anywhere near the same thing for a few reasons (player base, most HL mods are real TC's, etc; etc.). You can't make a mod with even half the caliber of CS without a team of coders, design artists, & other developers & no one in the SW scene is interested in going out of the SW theme. Sad but true. So I have no intention in pursuing something I already know is not going to happen, at least not until everyone else is interested in doing so because it won't happen without the team.

In all reality with AJK, you don't need to make a TC out of it until after all the code is implimented. The visual part of the TC should not be too tough considering most of these weapons are already made for JK & the code implimentation is pretty minor stuff. I would imagine it would be the same for MB or any other mod for that matter but I don't know (no offense but nor am I asking).Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Nope, I haven't. The question is why are there no CS-level type JKII mods out there. Your answer is 'pimp more'. Sorry, but that's just in-correct.That statement right proves exactly what I said the first time. You totally missed the point. The whole "why there are no CS-level" was your interpretation of what I said, not what I actually said. Again, the "pimp more" is aimed towards JK modding, not so much HL because most HL mods are TCs & that right there is eye candy & a ho that pimps itself off wrapped up in one. Most TCs out of JK & MoH are that way (i.e. Quake, Half-Life, etc; etc.). Of course, more pimpin never hurts.

With JK mods, you do need to pimp it off. OmniMod was the posterchild of that concept in JK2. Actually now that I think about it, Duelers didn't do much pimpin at all out of forums so maybe it's not as crucial as I may be making it seem with the whole Duelers & OmniMod comparison thing but any way you look at it, the more pimping off you do the better you are off.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
This is true, of a CS-level mods or any other mod, but your point doesn't get to the heart of the issue. It's a side issue - at best.Actually the "heart of the issue" here is various minor additions for OJP, not why there is no CS level mods for JK. All I was doing, like you said, making some side issues.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
OK - well - this is totally my point. You have to 'aim' to make that kind of mod in the first place.I've already talked with most of the coders & quite a few other developers as well. No one wants to do a real TC - NO ONE. Well, Chosen One is game if he has the time but he wants there to be more staff, Lee has no interest whatsoever in doing this (even when we were on good terms), Razorace may consider doing this at a later time as long as it stays in the SW theme but his existing projects are a higher priority for him, etc; etc. They all want to stay in the SW theme pretty much, so if anything like that is ever going to happen, we have to roll with what everyone else wants for the time being. Then maybe after the main stuff is already implemented, we'll pursue a second generation TC or something, I dunno. Only time will tell.Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
THis is, personally, what I am trying to do with Movie Battles II (TBH, this is only a working title. THe name will almost certainly change nearer release time).

Now, will I succeed?! Heh, probably not! But I think JKA is owed at least an attempt by SOMEBODY. And since no-one else is voluentering, I'm stepping up to the plate

..plus, I'm having a blast working on it anyway. So it's worth trying in any case...While I applaud your efforts, the reality of the matter is you can't make a real TC all by yourself & last I checked, MB was still in the SW theme as well so until it goes out of it, it's not a real TC in my book. You can make new gametypes or change existing ones (same concept really, 1 is more going back to default-able than the other) & whatnot but that's exactly what it will be, a new gametype, not a TC. Saying "I'm making a Star Wars movie mod out of a Star Wars game" is not a TC to me man. Saying "I'm making a Kill Bill mod out of a Star Wars game" is making a TC to me. New sounds, new weapons, new maps, etc; etc = THAT's a TC.

While the AotC TC is a real TC, it's still in the SW theme so I don't really consider it one. Technically it is but really it's not. It's like saying chess is a sport, technically yes it is a sport but really it's not. Football, basketball, hockey, etc; etc. = that's a real sport. Same concept.

It's somewhat rude to everyone else to continue pursuing it, therefore, this is my last reply on this topic.

Conceeded and agreed.
I have a lot more to say, but I'll agree to end it here.

Sorry, I haven't read the 3 pages of long posts, so if anything has been suggested before just ignore it.

Maybe you guys could bolt the saber onto the player's waist when they have it off? That would be pretty cool, although it would probably require a new animation.

I don't know if this would be considered too much of a gameplay change for the basic release, but maybe give having your saber off a reason, I was thinking increased force pool regeneration? Right now there is no real reason to turn it off, except for the 'honor' code.

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk
Conceeded and agreed.
I have a lot more to say, but I'll agree to end it here. My contact information is in my signature, I'd be more than willing to debate any of this with you but all I was trying to do was express my opinion, not start a debate. If this is something you'd like to discuss further again, my contact info is in my sig & I use ICQ & MSN the majority of the time I am online.Originally posted by babywax
Maybe you guys could bolt the saber onto the player's waist when they have it off? That would be pretty cool, although it would probably require a new animation.I think Razorace already had that in mind but what will actually happen we have yet to see.Originally posted by babywax
I don't know if this would be considered too much of a gameplay change for the basic release, but maybe give having your saber off a reason, I was thinking increased force pool regeneration? Right now there is no real reason to turn it off, except for the 'honor' code.When you have your saber hilted you can run a bit faster; Which is funny to me because I came up with this exact concept already about a year & 1/2 ago when I was modding MoH.

Anyways, Razorace also has a hand to hand combat thing happening with this also, so there's another reason why people would have their saber off.

Well, I checked the animations and using the current animations should look fine. I'll try messing with it when I get to it.

Wouldn't you need like a model tag for the place where you want the saber to be? Or is it possible with the existing setup?

Also, could this be possible with dual sabers style? The way the saberhilt now stays in the left hand looks a bit weird when using only one of the 2 sabers.

Razor, if you do need tags on the player models belts for the "hilts on belt" thing, let me know. I might be getting into the modelling aspect of this sometime in the near future.

I'd hate to do that unless we have to. Doing so would make the normal player models not work with the system.

not really, we could create a default point for the tag & have it use that. Basically compare all the Ravensoft models & figure what's the best way of going about doing that, or perhaps there's even an existing tag in all models we could roll with.

Worst case scenario, it could show no hilt upon models with no tag which would look a little worse but there is no real disadvantage so I don't see why not.

These are the tags you'd be interested in.

bolt_hip_l (left)
bolt_hip_r (right)
bolt_hip_bl (back left)
bolt_hip_br
bolt_hip_fl (front Left)
bolt_hip_fr

Six sides of the model at the hip.

If they aren't found and I hope it wouldn't come to that, default back to the original.

Is there a way to offset the model from the bolt?

Not that I know of...

Well, I suppose you could create "animations" for the sabers that would move them off the origin by a set amount...But that would require every saber to have the same animation set.

maybe Setup a statement like how the saber throw works?

bolt the saber(s) to a hip bolt.
(during saber off and non ignited "collected" sabers)

move the pos and apos by a certain amount?

would something like that work?

Well, if you're doing that, you haven't really bolted it to the model. Instead, you've just created a new entity that has to be updated. This wouldn't look right since the saber would lag noticably.

Ah. Yes your right. I remember that when starting to edit the stick to walls. Don't know what I was thinking.

If the distance isn't much, will the lag be noticeable?

Plus this should give the advantage of making the coding of pull being useable on them easier correct?

Once you get them to that point it gives them all the properties of a thrown saber. They can be knocked off the belt with a well placed hit. As long as you specify they are "off" you can keep them differentiated correct? Set up a que too.

If in rhand, bolt to hip_r or lhand, then to br, bl, l, fl, and finally fr.

I'm getting ahead of myself though.

Well, no it wouldn't look right because player models are very unpredictable in terms of movement and because the server fps is very low.

However, you could probably have a flag for the entity that would make it automatically update positioning client side but I think that would be too much effort.