Of everyone who reads this board and will most likely obtain a copy of Jedi Academy, there will be good players (with lots of time), decent players, casual players, and plenty of "noobs".
I urge you ALL to please not whine your heads off if you are getting your butt kicked and spam Raven to patch a perfectly fine game. Let the game play out first and maybe you will actually LEARN the game and realize the tactic you are getting killed on constantly is rather EASY to avoid.
I would really hate to see another occurance of what happened to Jedi Outcast. Every patch just seemed to have no testing behind it and it just changed the game too radically every time and resulted in a big loss of players in the community each time.
- Dunpeel
amen, whatever move can be spammed, you can do the same thing back to them. with seige it might become a bit unbalanced, but even in the 1.03 patch there were so many ways to counter backstab by using aborb or push. we gotta wait atleast a month or two before making complaints unless there's a bug that is not related to the gameplay.
Patches should fix bugs, not gameplay. :/ Nuff said.
yeah just let people get used to the gameplay and then they will actually learn how to really play the game
Originally posted by StormHammer
Patches should fix bugs, not gameplay. :/ Nuff said.
aye
Originally posted by StormHammer
Patches should fix bugs, not gameplay. :/ Nuff said.
I couldn't agree more...
sometimes patches are needed to fix gameplay. 1.03 just made the game stupid. yes, as a skilled player it was possible to avoid being backstabbed, but people just starting were put off by a game where you run around backwards trying to score a one hit kill move, it was just ridiculous.
hopefully the game will be well enough balanced in the initial release so that there will be no need for patches to fix the gameplay, but if there are problems, i'd rather see them fixed than see them ruin the community.
Well, if Raven would design a lightsaber dueling system where realistic tactics and moves
are *required* for you to stay alive against a skilled opponent, and idiotic
stuff like turning your back on an enemy all the time to try to trigger a backstab
or mindlessly kick spamming would almost certainly get you killed in seconds,
then there wouldn't be a need to release patches to fix the dueling gameplay. :)
Raven has had a long time to test, balance and polish the lightsaber dueling system,
plus their experience of what went wrong in this area in JKII. So there really isn't
any excuse for JA to have anything less than a very accurately modeled dueling
simulation. So that highly realistic lightsaber duels and tactics are not only common,
but in effect forced by the harsh penalties for fighting in a sloppy or
senseless way (i.e. you die swiftly).
I really hope Raven has gotten this right this time, we JK fans have been waiting
an awful long time for a dueling system that will result in authentic Jedi vs Sith
lightsaber duels like we see in Star Wars. :)
Agreed with Dunpeel, Stormhammer, et al.
Dunedain...
I don't think the "backstab spamming" will be a valid complaint in JA, because not only is the move still there, but we also have FORWARD and SIDE stabs. Thus you can stab anybody pretty much anywhere, and won't look like an "a$$ fighter" trying to skewer them. ; )
Hmm, interesting. Well, I don't mind the various types of stabs just so long
as they are blockable and leave the one trying the stab open to counter attack,
especially if he has his back to you. That should be very risky, leaving the whole
back area very vulnerable to a deadly clean torso hit.
If Raven correctly does that, then backstab spamming (or any other type of
stab spamming) should not be an issue in JA. Which is great news. :)
My other major concern then would be kick spamming, which is probably an even
more serious issue than backstab spamming. Kicks should be risky to attempt,
be blockable and be a tactical element to duels, not a source of heavy damage
in and of themselves or something that can be spammed with little risk
to the kicker.
I hope Raven tested this stuff heavily to make sure it's done right this time.
If they have corrected all these flaws, then JA lightsaber duels should be
fantastic. :)
Originally posted by Dunpeel
Of everyone who reads this board and will most likely obtain a copy of Jedi Academy, there will be good players (with lots of time), decent players, casual players, and plenty of "noobs".
I urge you ALL to please not whine your heads off if you are getting your butt kicked and spam Raven to patch a perfectly fine game. Let the game play out first and maybe you will actually LEARN the game and realize the tactic you are getting killed on constantly is rather EASY to avoid.
I would really hate to see another occurance of what happened to Jedi Outcast. Every patch just seemed to have no testing behind it and it just changed the game too radically every time and resulted in a big loss of players in the community each time.
- Dunpeel Well put...
Originally posted by StormHammer
Patches should fix bugs, not gameplay. :/ Nuff said. It seems like such a simple rule, and yet it can be used to avoid so many problems :)
Originally posted by BigMexican
sometimes patches are needed to fix gameplay. 1.03 just made the game stupid. But the reason 1.03 failed in the first place was that it tried to make gameplay changes and not just fix bugs :) 1.02 JO would have survived just fine if only the DFA collision issue and so on had been addressed.
Originally posted by StormHammer
Patches should fix bugs, not gameplay. :/ Nuff said. I would only change that to state:
Patches should EITHER fix bugs OR alter gameplay, but NEVER both.
Problem is, a game with 6 or 7 patches is immediately thought of as 'buggy', while a game with 3 is just being 'kept up to date'. Yet you may be better off with more patches ... if it means that bug fixes are assessed before altering gameplay, and vice versa.
Mike
Originally posted by StormHammer
Patches should fix bugs, not gameplay. :/ Nuff said.
I disagree.
If there is a major gameplay problem why should they not fix it?
(I don't own JK2, I've only played the SP at a friend's house.)
But its not the gameplay that is the problem, its the players. Its always the players.
Like Stormhammer said (great, first Kurgan now Storm, who's next?) patches should fix bugs, not bug-crazy wh0r3s.
There's always gonna me whiners.. there are 2 million players or more worldwide. how on earth can they make everyone happy? .. wont happen! they can make the game playable for all.. but there's always gonna be ppl who's dissatisfied with something.. and then again.. there's gonna be ppl who spam the moves theyr good at, i cant see the problem with that. but i agree. patches shouls fix bugs, not alter gameplay radically.
::/Ed
hey all!! Force Longpost!! (run while u can! :P)
i reckon it'd be interesting to see if they made a new update patching system... heres one for thought
when a patch is finally due, ie when people start whinning to such a degree or even the pros think that something is pretty outta place, they should create a BETA mp version, that you don't need to sign up for and all can download. and on the release they can stick up a new forum for people to discuss it (although this probably isn't neccessary as these things get discussed in our current forums)
the gamemakers will try to rebalance and whatnot - as you do when creating an update patch - and then release a near complete BETA version. when you download this beta it has a questionare (which is only optional to fill out ofcoarse to prevent only 'serious answers'), with questions on how you would rate the changes made in the patch, with about 5 options that don't make you rate the changes in terms of stars but have options such as:
Q: what do you think of the changes to force drain
- definate improvement
- slightly better
- hasn't solved much, still needs work
- you've gone the wrong way about fixing it
- shouldn't of changed it
- wtf have you done! change it back!
as you see, the answers to choose from aren't just a simple rating out of 5, although they are only examples, it gives the fixers a much more indepth view on "player insight".
and maybe at the end have a question on areas you think need improvement and that they should focus on and you can click on bullet point list of saber stances, all force powers, saber moves, saber types, mp modes etc, and select the ones you think need improving.
even if they didn't release a BETA, if they attatched the questionare even to the complete official patch, then i think we would get less complaints of hugely drastic changes
the game makers ofcoarse don't tally the votes and go for what was most voted for, but they get a mass idea where the majority support of what needs changing.
so, whaddaya think?? democratic update patching lmao!! :rolleyes: far fetched i know :) but just food for thought
cheers for reading! :)
i like the idea.. but hey, this isnt a democracy, the developers can do whatever they want with the game. and so it should be.
if you were a developer and posted that poll you wrote, and got theese results back:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Q: what do you think of the changes to force drain
- definate improvement 23%
(all the n00bs now have a better chance against the pro's who's not used to this setting)
- slightly better 12%
(theese are the ppl who get a slightly larger kill count now)
- hasn't solved much, still needs work 25%
(i still suck at the game)
- you've gone the wrong way about fixing it 2%
(nobody will vote this anyway, if ppl are dissatisfied with something they always pick the worst pole option)
- shouldn't of changed it 9%
(patches gennerally suck, i dont like changes, even if its for the better)
- wtf have you done! change it back! 30%
(OMG i'm getting pwned by n00bs now, this must be a sucky patch)
-------------------------------------------------------------
..what would you do?
ppl wont vote on whats best for the game, but what fits them best, as in, what gets them the most kills. thats why a patch, unless its a bugfixer only (like the old bluestance airfloate), almost always will make alotta ppl happy, and alotta ppl grumpy.
if only ppl would be honest in polls like that, it would work. "ok, i cant spam that redstance special anymore so i'm no that l33t but overall, i think it diversyfies the game and offer a more varied game experience, even though i dont get as many frags as i used to get. i like this patch" <-- that will never happen.. its ---> "OMFG, you nerfed the only move i could spam over and over. WTF ppl have time to move now.. this patch s0x0r bring it back to the way it was so i can bash n00bs again"
Originally posted by tom4stir
I disagree.
If there is a major gameplay problem why should they not fix it?
(I don't own JK2, I've only played the SP at a friend's house.)
But I'd say most perceived gameplay problems are exactly that...player's perceptions of what is wrong. We are all different, and have sometimes vastly differing opinions about 'what is acceptable' and 'what is fun'.
Perhaps I did over-simplify it. There have been developers in the past who have released games that have been generally slated for poor gameplay mechanics, rubbish AI, tedious control systems and a glaring lack of the 'fun' factor. Of course bad games can and will be made, and those are all gameplay issues rather than bugs. But I'd say that any developer releasing such a game deserves punishing reviews, and should either learn from their mistakes or shut up shop.
If there is a truly glaring gameplay problem in Jedi Academy that makes it excrutiatingly painful to play, then of course it should be addressed.
But based on all the feedback over Jedi Outcast, apart from the main bugs that were in the game, the 'perceived' gameplay 'imbalances' were more down to individual player preferences than true show-stopping gameplay design issues, and the loudest voices of protest managed to get their own way - even if they may have been a minority of the community.
If you release a gameplay-altering patch a month or two after release, then in my view that's a community knee-jerk reaction issue. If after 6 months a 'majority' of the game's community is vocal about one particular issue, then maybe the developer made a poor design choice somewhere along the way, or the beta-testers didn't do their job properly.
The fundamental problem, however, is that the online community may not be fully representative of the game's entire target audience - you can still be dealing with a minority opinion (for example, 10,000 people complain out of 2 million purchasers). Should the developer listen to the 10,000, and believe it representative of all those who bought the game? That's a bit of rocky ground, in my view.
We have to remember that developers are gamers too, and make games the way they want to play them - which is, of course, a minority view in relation to the end sales and fan base. If the developer intended the game to play a certain way, that's conscious design decision, and maybe the end gamer should give the game a chance (over a good few months) and try to actually learn all of the nuances involved, rather than shout 'This game sucks' because they keep dying against human opponents online.
It's a sad truth, but some 'gamers' are not suited to some types of game - and so their perceptions are coloured by their own lack of ability. Rather than shoulder the burden of responsiblity themselves and admit they are poor gamers (in a particular genre or game mode), they blame the game instead. Everyone has varying levels of ability - I'm just a slightly above average player (in my own mind) compared to many out there. There will always be someone better than you...and there will always (invariably) be cheaters and hackers who seem invincible. That's not a fault of the game...that's a fault of the players who use such exploits.
As I've said before, the last thing I want to see is the community being 'divided' over perceived gameplay issues. If you can't do X, Y or Z in the game like you may have expected...so what? That's how the game was designed, and maybe you can do A, B and C instead. Removing your 'favourite' moves from a game, for example, doesn't make it a poor game - just different. In the same way that introducing new elements can change the gameplay style.
Some people want the next game in a series to be practically the same as the last, with all their favourite parts intact. Others want to see fundamental gameplay changes and new features. That doesn't make one set of gamers right or wrong. It just means the game is different, and requires some 'relearning' to get the best out of it.
So from my perspective, I'll accept Jedi Academy at face value, and try my best to learn all of it's nuances (which may take me a while) before I make any judgements about gameplay 'imbalances'. And I'll accept the fact that those perceived 'imbalances' are not necessarily vaild in the whole scheme of things. I might just need some extra practice. ;)
i agree when ever sum 1 new plays and dies they rekon the games pants. but they dont try 2 get better, and think a patch will make it all better!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by StormHammer
But I'd say most perceived gameplay problems are exactly that...player's perceptions of what is wrong. We are all different, and have sometimes vastly differing opinions about 'what is acceptable' and 'what is fun'.
And then perception can become the 'reality' - like the whole thing about 'heavy' being the only 'real' stance for JKII MP. I keep reading it, so itt must be true, yet when I do play some MP there are people I can tell use Blue or Yellow stances, and the few (like myself) who mix it up. I've killed many a Red stance player using Blue or Yellow, and I'm nott nearly the best saberist I've played against online.
Mike
I agree, especially since Raven saw what errors there were in JO. I don't think any will be to extensive this time around. Things like the lightsaber damage extending upon the reach of the saber is something that should be fixed ( i.e 1.02 red stance dfa attack).
But there shouldn't be to many problems this time around.
Very well said Stormhammer... excellent.
Couldn't be said better, Dunpeel. I seem to become the "decent" player, but I equally associate with the "casual" and "good" players. I hope that patches will not be necessary for anything, but if there are, the idea of fixing a "bug" should be emphasized.
My other major concern then would be kick spamming, which is probably an even more serious issue than backstab spamming. Kicks should be risky to attempt, be blockable and be a tactical element to duels, not a source of heavy damage in and of themselves or something that can be spammed with little risk to the kicker.
There's another area where Raven's apparent reponse to the whining is not to remove it, but to add MORE such moves.
Note that there are at least half a dozen kick moves now (so far we only know of ones for the saber staff though... unconfirmed whether normal flip kicks exist for other types).
People who complain about "cheapness" are going to have a lot more to complain about. Hopefully Raven will just ignore these whiners though... and the real gamers will simply learn counters to the moves and play it like a game, not a role playing movie.
Remember that unless you want sabers to be ONLY a one on one dueling weapon, you have to allow for a certain number of "cheap" moves for the sake of usefulness.
and the real gamers will simply learn counters to the moves and play it like a game, not a role playing movie.
So what you are you saying that people who like to role play with JKII and will do the same with JA are not "real" gamers?
LOL, j/k. We don't need another one of those threads...
I think a game as rich as JKII allowed both kinds of gameplay and that was what made it so special. I see no reason why JA cannot be the same.
"Identify, adapt, overcome."
So what you are you saying that people who like to role play with JKII and will do the same with JA are not "real" gamers?
Exactly so. I am saying that Role Players are NOT playing the game as it was designed or intended to be played.
None of the games in the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series are RPG's and it's a misuse of the game to consider them to be. It would be different if these folks had created some elaborate RPG mod, but they haven't. They're just pretending as they walk around with their sabers off and chat and use emotes! Play a real RPG (pencil & paper or something like Baldur's Gate II) sometime and you'll see the difference...
Here's an example. Imagine some people bought a Chess Set, then they used the pieces to play "Doll house."
They would make up stories and use the pieces to make believe how the King was having an affair with one of the pawns and the Queen was stealing the Knight's stuff while the Bishops were drinking tea and singing sonnets.
It's the same idea.. because you're taking a game that was clearly designed for one specific purpose, and using it for something completely unrelated. I mean, you're free to do what you want, but it's completely silly, and you can't claim that it was part of the "genius" of the designers of the game to "include this feature" because it's not a feature!
Do people role play that they are monsters and soldiers having a slumber party in Quake 3 Arena?
Just because it's Star Wars people seem to think that its okay to treat it like EverQuest. ; p
Sorry for the rant. I know you were just kidding, but I just had to throw that in there...
Originally posted by jadenkorr
:jawa
No one-word/smilie-only posts please.
Kurgan, I think you are missing the point.
What must be kept in mind is that this is a *Star Wars* game and, even more specifically,
a Star Wars game that focuses on playing a Jedi Knight and no doubt getting in
lightsaber duels. It's not just some random "game", or some generic FPS.
So it should be designed to be as authentic, as much as technology will allow,
to Star Wars as it can.
Just because there are many players that want the lightsaber dueling mechanics
to be accurate, doesn't make us not "real gamers".
And I'm not talking about playing the game like it was an RPG. I'm just talking about
the lightsaber dueling mechanics being authentic. And that's all I'm talking about.
And most of the people I've seen post here on this forum about improvements in
the accuracy of dueling system are strictly talking about authentic fighting
mechanics, not about trying to RPG some character.
It's like when playing MOH or the new Call of Duty game coming out later this year.
If someone would like to see, say, the BAR's bullet dispersion modeled
more accurately, does that mean they are trying to make a WWII FPS into a WWII RPG?
No, it just means they want the darn gun to work more like it really should! :)
This has nothing to do with trying to turn the game into an RPG. And the exact
same thing applies to JA.
I'm certainly not trying to play the JK games like an RPG, but I do expect Raven
to make the lightsaber duels as authentic as they can to Star Wars. That's the whole
point to making a Star Wars game about being a Jedi Knight, to make the battles
(and the mechanics that govern those battles) be like it would really be in Star Wars.
Maybe there are some that don't care if the gameplay in any Star Wars game
ever made is just some arcadey joke, with little resemblance to anything that
actually happens in Star Wars, but there are many others who *do* want the
lightsaber duels to be as authentic as possible. And that is perfectly obtainable
while playing the game in FPS mode, it doesn't have to be an RPG to be *accurate*.
See the difference? :)
What's going on with the forum, it seems to crash constantly? One minute
it's working fine, you come back a half hour later and it's down again.
This has been going on for like a week now.
I already know, and do not expect the sabers to be hitting perfectly or the duels to be precise. It's just swinging around with sabers and just hoping you're gonna win.
That's how it is the mostly, but you can pull in some special tricks to make it more accurate and more ''making sense''.
How do you know what it's like, JA isn't even out yet?
I certainly hope it's more realistic than random swinging doing you any good.
It has to better than that, even JKII with it's faults had duels where tactics mattered.
Random swinging should just get you killed fast, if you're dueling a skilled opponent.
I hope however, if there is a huge disadvantage between the different saber types (like single not strong enough) or more ppl using the katas instead of swinging, that THEN a patch would be released to fix it...not in the first weeks, but after a month orso...the saber things is IMO a bit of experimenting for raven
bugs should be fixed immediately...I still know a few for JO 1.04
You know, all this stuff about saber accuracy and hit damage and what-have-you is all well and good...but instead of people constantly asking for 'patches' to fix these things the way 'they' want, why can't they simply make a mod?
Oh...hang on...that's what people did with Jedi Outcast. :rolleyes:
Again, it's entirely down to player preference.
I don't think anyone here would disagree with you wanting to play the game the way you like - and if you like more 'realistic' saber combat, and want to turn it into some kind of Jedi simulator...fine, go ahead. You can make a mod with like-minded people and play it to death.
But don't ask the developers to make those kinds of sweeping changes permanent for the majority of players...because you have to remember there are lots of people who want to play the game [b]as it is[/i].
Yeah, but why not make JA accurate "as it is", right out of the box?
Doesn't Raven have the skill to design an authentic lightsaber dueling
system? Why does everything have to be designed for newbs who can't fight their
way out of a paper bag?
Why not just put a *toggle* right in the main game interface for servers who want
to run with low saber damage and stuff like that for newbs, fine by me. But
Raven should respect the wishes of dedicated JK fans who have been buying
and playing these JK games for 6 years now and give them some serious lightsaber
dueling mechanics. Not fake arcade stuff, but the real thing, as best you can
with current technology. And it's not like realistic lightsaber duels
aren't exciting. Just watch Star Wars, that's the canon and gold standard we aspire to.
And those duels are very exciting and dynamic. Just keep it authentic to that
and duels will be fast paced, intense AND true to Star Wars.
If someone doesn't have the skill to play at that level, then either get better
or go play on servers that have that relaxed difficulty setting. But we shouldn't
all be forced to play at the newb level; Raven should supply an expert
realism lightsaber server mode for the many long time fans that have been asking
for it for years now.
I mean, if we can't even count on Lucasarts and Raven who are a making a FPS
specifically about playing a Jedi Knight to *finally* give us an authentic
Star Wars Jedi Knight vs Sith lightsaber dueling system, then what are we
paying them for? They've had *years* to tune, adjust, polish and correct this stuff!
Besides, most experienced players who've played JKII that I've seen want the duels
more authentic, for example, making lightsabers be very deadly when they hit you,
like they were when JKII first came out. There are a ton of established Raven
customers who want this and have been waiting a year and a half for this. Isn't it about
time Raven delivered on this? :)