Seems like Raven has gone to a lot of trouble to specifically put moves into the game which are for killing people who have been disabled and are laying on the ground.
Personally, I'm fine with attacking someone when theyre on the ground after I win a saber lock. After all, isnt that the point of the saber lock? I'm not going to get RSI from clicking like crazy, just to be whined at for using my well gained advantage.
The kick debate, well i suppose that's fair enough. There are people who go around kick whoring and their only way to win is to just keep kicking til their opponent is down, then take their shot. THAT is cheap, but I don't know why taking a stab or 2 after winning a saber lock is cheap. The locks are there for a reason. Do you always stop and wait for the reborn to get up in Outcast SP after you beat them in a saber lock? It's a mechanism to gain an advantage. If you're willing to put yourself through pain to click at 100 miles an hour to win a saber lock, then you should be allowed to take what's rightfully yours.
Now that recovery moves have been added (rolls, jump kicks off the ground), perhaps attacking people when theyre on the ground will be a more viable method of attacking. If you're too slow to execute one of these moves before you're jumped on and speared, too bad. Learn to play better, but dont whinge if someone does it to you in a duel on a public server.
Private/Clan servers have their own rules. Generally public ones don't. If a private server owner/gameop/regular tells you not to, then fair enough.
But if someone whinges about you killing them when they're down after a saber lock on a public server, stuff 'em. Go for gold, stab the hell out of them :)
Let's also hope that the multitude of kicks available to those who choose to use the saberstaff aren't overused and have to be nerfed.
If someone complains about you using the ground finishing moves, tell them to go back to JO. They're in the game, and they're staying.
Feel free to post your own thoughts on the ground ethics matter.
I commend the Raven team for paying careful attention (once again) to the great melee combat features in the Bushido Blade series of games!
Now those among us who choose to can literally "roll on the floor laughing" by tapping our key bound to "LoL!" while rolling on the ground.
Thankfully, we can also silence their mirth and merriment with a good-natured downward saber thrust to the groin.
Now if only we had the ability to toss sand in the face of our opponents, our enjoyment could truly be complete...!
I hope also that (if it is not already there, it will be added in a future patch) the "Surrender Emote" will be included, from Bushido Blade 2.
*Player1 turns off saber and drops to knees, bowing head forward*
(game goes into pseudo-cutscene)
*Player2* (slashing saber in downward arc) BONSAAAIIIIIIII!!!!!
In all seriousness though, I don't think this will be such a big issue. Of larger "concerns" (heh) is the presence of not just single, but DOUBLE backstabs (and side stabs).
Muahahaha!
PS: I think if the above conditions for the "Surrender Emote" were met, the experience would further be enhanced with the presence of dismemberment and a few "lightning effects" after the fatal erm... "cut."
I like all of the moves I've seen on the official site...and as stated, the moves are there to be used. It makes total sense to finish someone off when they're on the ground, especially, as you say Gonk, if you've been clicking like a maniac to obtain that advantage. ;)
I have to say I like the 'forward stab' move...it's very reminiscent of a fencing duel thrust, and seems to add a little bit of finesse for that reason.
As for kicks, I don't have a problem with those either, as long as there is some kind of counter measure. In JO I can usually get a Force Push into the proceedings if I've been knocked down, and now with the extra mobility after knockdowns, it should not be such an issue. If you simply lie on the ground after being knocked down, waiting for the deathblow, then that's your problem. :p
And Kurgan...I'm still ROFL at those ideas... :D
Originally posted by Kurgan
I hope also that (if it is not already there, it will be added in a future patch) the "Surrender Emote" will be included, from Bushido Blade 2.
*Player1 turns off saber and drops to knees, bowing head forward*
(game goes into pseudo-cutscene)
*Player2* (slashing saber in downward arc) BONSAAAIIIIIIII!!!!!
I thought that I heard a rumor that the saber-off/bow thing was there as a key-choice, not as a surrendor but as a h0n0rz bow ... imaging the cries of lam3r when someone goes into a bow and you do the patented ObiWan down-stab like in AotC ... :D
I still haven't finished all of the content in the new site ... but it is all so cool ...
Mike
Heck...with all these new moves...I think hitting a grounded enemy will be
a) very hard
b) potentially painful (kick from ground)
So, if I knock someone down, I'm gonna stab 'em. Wait- I already do! :o
A good point txa1265. I think that as a point of order for the revived *ASC* this emote shall be henceforth known as the "Surrender Emote."
Yes, I like the sound of that. ; )
Originally posted by boinga1
Heck...with all these new moves...I think hitting a grounded enemy will be
a) very hard
b) potentially painful (kick from ground)
So, if I knock someone down, I'm gonna stab 'em. Wait- I already do! :o That's what makes it so cool. It is going to make battles lots and lots of fun, in SP and MP. The diversity of moves is just tremendous ... can't wait to try them ...
Mike
Originally posted by Kurgan
A good point txa1265. I think that as a point of order for the revived *ASC* this emote shall be henceforth known as the "Surrender Emote."
Yes, I like the sound of that. ; )
Hahahah....yeah, I can just see that. Great idea. :D
Player 1 - bows with saber off
Player 2 - "Ah, so you surrender." *chops head off*
Excellent! :D
Originally posted by StormHammer
Hahahah....yeah, I can just see that. Great idea. :D
Player 1 - bows with saber off
Player 2 - "Ah, so you surrender." *chops head off*
Excellent! :D
LoL yea and then those "n00bs" would start running around and saying "He's a lam3r! Admin ban him now before I cry!"
Sure hope that doesn't happen much in JA.
JO: Kick + DFA whore = owned victim.
JA: Kick + DFA whore = owned whore.
Looking at the wealth of new moves, and counter-measures up on the official site, I think it shows that this leopard has actually managed to change it's spots sufficiently to redress the balance, and put the 'play' back into 'gameplay'.
I mean...jump up kick after knockdown...that's just tasty. ;)
I certainly don't have a problem with finishing off your opponent after he's been knocked
to the ground, that's completely consistent with Star Wars. And I don't mind kicks as
long as they can be blocked and involve risk for the one who is attempting the kick.
Meaning, if an opponent tries to kick you he opens himself for counter attack and should
have to actually extend his leg out when he kicks, not just some instant animation,
but his leg is physically out there and vulnerable to being struck.
This will prevent people from that super fake kick spamming you see in JKII.
You keep kicking at opponents and you will quickly end up with your leg sliced off.
Let's see how well you duel while hopping on one leg. ;)
I don't mind things like kicks, stabs, etc., as long as they are simulated
in a way that what would work in a real lightsaber duel could also work in JA, but cheap
unrealistic tactics will get you killed very quickly in a duel with anyone good.
Just make the duels be authentic to the Star Wars movies. Stupid stuff that wouldn't
work a real duel should get you killed frighteningly fast. If Raven can do that,
then JA multi-player duels are going to own! :)
This just keeps on getting better and better...
And thanks for the laughs Kurgan. ;)
If someone falls to the ground that means dead (or a loss) to me, but if the guy jumps up again hes in for another fight and ill never finish them of on the ground, ill do it in the air instead...
Wait, wait! Now when i have finally read all the posts it seems that none of you has tested it yet. (Im talking about JA). Has the game not been officially released or what? It would explain why there are no servers up on the net. But how come I have it then?
Originally posted by .:Cequel
Wait, wait! Now when i have finally read all the posts it seems that none of you has tested it yet. (Im talking about JA). Has the game not been officially released or what? It would explain why there are no servers up on the net. But how come I have it then?
I don't know why you have it but you should know, don't you? Beta smell? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by .:Cequel
Wait, wait! Now when i have finally read all the posts it seems that none of you has tested it yet. (Im talking about JA). Has the game not been officially released or what? It would explain why there are no servers up on the net. But how come I have it then?
You might want to go here
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106970) and read up a bit.
Game is not out yet, if you have it ... well read the above link.
Mike
Originally posted by .:Cequel
Has the game not been officially released or what? It would explain why there are no servers up on the net. But how come I have it then?
Well...did you actually go out and buy a copy of the game? If you did, then you must have a very good supplier, because Jedi Academy is due in stores on 17th September 2003 in the US, and a bit later in other countries. :rolleyes:
If you have the beta leak, please take your comments elsewhere. We don't tolerate warez or leaked beta information on these forums. :tsk:
Cequel, you didn't just turn on your computer and find it on the desktop, did you?
The only person who whined about me was in an extemely long match on ffa_deathstar. A guy tried to kick me for killing him with the traps, like, 800 times. :rolleyes: He just kept walking into the garbage compactor and I just hit the button whenever he did and when he got out, he ran away into the room with the lazer thing and I just hit the button everytime he did. The vote was a near tie. Out of 16 people, he got 1 vote (his own), and I got 2.
The finishing move is fine with me. If the recovery kick will knock him down or the roll will take you out of danger, there is always a way to survive. Incompetent people should not be helped along.
I'm hoping that you can block the kick, resulting in an extreme pain in their foot, if they still have one.
i'll be happy as long as they have replaced the stupid, mouse-killing clicking of saber locks with something more sensible like a swing meter... but then, they would have to be idiots not to have fixed that....:)
Originally posted by Dunedain
I certainly don't have a problem with finishing off your opponent after he's been knocked
to the ground, that's completely consistent with Star Wars. And I don't mind kicks as
long as they can be blocked and involve risk for the one who is attempting the kick.
Meaning, if an opponent tries to kick you he opens himself for counter attack and should
have to actually extend his leg out when he kicks, not just some instant animation,
but his leg is physically out there and vulnerable to being struck.
This will prevent people from that super fake kick spamming you see in JKII.
You keep kicking at opponents and you will quickly end up with your leg sliced off.
Let's see how well you duel while hopping on one leg.
i agree, kicks should be VERY risky and only used to push some distance between you and your opponent. not spammed
i think there should be an awesome animation when someone kicks and it is countered by a quick saber swing, where the person's leg flies away and person painfully falls back with his stump still extended for an instant, and then drops in a dummy like fassion :D.... excuse my ghoulishness :D :cool:
Chopping legs off would be wicked.
kicks would be ok, but i think the damage has to be reduced and the risk increased, making them a tactical option, not simply another weapon. if they did 5 or 10 damage instead of 20, were a lot harder to land and execute, and perhaps left the kicker vulnerable afterwards (perhaps on their back as if knocked down?) then i think they'd work exceptionally well. they would be, like many other moves, a calculated gamble. whether or not to risk a knockdown for the possibility of a knockdown and 10 damage to your opponent!? as they are in JO, its too easy to pull/kick people to death, and you cant disable them without limiting jump to level 1, which then removes cool wall runs!
check out staff saber, it's all about kicking, and i'm afraid it will be used for that
forward stab: reminds me of 1.03 stab, dont ask me why..at least the majority of players wont walk backwards (that was awful).
Well if there wouldn't be a good balance in the game I think raven is watchign out for that and as in JO's 1.03 will release patches of course, cause this is kinda of a new experiment for them i think ,don't expect everything to be balanced in the beginning...
I just want it to come out on PS2.
well it isn't. And it never will. So buly for you.
And thats totally OT too.
So bully for me?
What the hell is that surposed to mean?
I'll just get it on computer then.
That's the thing, we have no idea if (I highly doubt) all of the kicks for the Saberstaff are identical in power to the "flip kicks" from JK2.
Remember, in JK2, in addition to the 20 damage, kicks would knock the person either flat on their back, or at least "away."
For all we know, it may be more like a punch (see the "fists cheat" in JK2 single player, or punches in previous DF games)... although I'd expect the flip kick from knockdown and air kicks to be similar in power... that's just my speculation.
do you know the cheat so you can kick & punch in SP?
Rockstar and Big have the right idea. Kicks should be a tactical choice, something
that you do occasionally to buy time, or get some space to collect yourself, or
steady up your defenses, or disrupt an enemy for a bit, etc.; kicks should *not* be
a source of significant damage. This is what is consistent with kicks we have seen
in Star Wars.
And kicking should always involve risk, both by leaving the kicker open for
counter attack and also the kicker risking hurting himself if he kicks his leg
into an opponents lightsaber which is at the ready and prepared to block his kick
from ever landing. A kick should never land automatically, only if the
opponent is open to be hit by the kick.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Dunedain
Rockstar and Big have the right idea. Kicks should be a tactical choice, something
that you do occasionally to buy time, or get some space to collect yourself, or
steady up your defenses, or disrupt an enemy for a bit, etc.; kicks should *not* be
a source of significant damage. This is what is consistent with kicks we have seen
in Star Wars.
And kicking should always involve risk, both by leaving the kicker open for
counter attack and also the kicker risking hurting himself if he kicks his leg
into an opponents lightsaber which is at the ready and prepared to block his kick
from ever landing. A kick should never land automatically, only if the
opponent is open to be hit by the kick.
Thoughts?
Please, oh please don't start the movie comparisons. They only go so far. First of all, the first three movies did not have the stunt/duel coordinators that are seen in this day and age. I think the implication of the guy who played Darth Maul, who happens to be an expert martial artist, was a nice touch in the "combat is not all in the saber" department.
But I digress.
Just because a person's lightsaber is in a "ready" position, does not mean he is readily able to block a kick. Not only once again does it bring up the thrust vs slash arguement as to which I hope the horse has been buried.
The way kick has been implemented in JO is similar to the lunge, it's a "thrust" move. Sure, we will be seeing roundhouses and potential ax kicks , but all it really is doing is just adding another element into gameplay. Will you always be able to point that saber in an upside-down vertical position to defend against that snap kick he just threw at your left nut? No.
Right now its the saber that needs help, not nerfing the living hell out of kick. You trying playing 1.04 SO/FF CTF and then tell me that you can't take a 1v1 without kicking when playing against professionals. Bring the damage of the saber up to 1.02 tables and lower the variance on blocking of the saber, and maybe JUST maybe you might start seeing the saber actually used.
Or you can be like me and DFA into pyro's PTK for the win.
Rad: Since every kick in a duel in Star Wars was not something that was
very damaging, I think it's more than fair and logical to argue that kicks
should have a similar affect in duels modeled in JA. Certainly it shouldn't
be 5 kicks and you're dead! 5-10% for a solid kick looks far more accurate.
And, of course, the part about the kicker taking a risk when he kicks and
opening himself to counter attack is critical, no free damage without risk.
And if you don't think that an opponent that is standing there ready and
waiting with his lightsaber in position and prepared for incoming strikes
can block a kick, then when would you expect a kick to be blocked? I mean,
the opponent is as ready as he can be. Kicks in that sense are just like
lightsaber strikes, you have to look for openings if you expect a hit.
If somebody is sloppy enough to walk up to an opponent and just try to
kick him when the enemy is ready and waiting, then he deserves to take damage
from kicking right into the guys lightsaber. Once again, the kicker has to take
a *risk* when he kicks, just like when you swing at a Jedi with a lightsaber,
you open yourself to risk. Only in this case since your leg is sticking out
there and trying to hit the guy, and not your lightsaber blade, then the risk
is more than just the chance for counter attack.
As for the lightsabers, I certainly agree that damage needs to be made heavy,
like it was when JKII came out. 1 or two hits with a lightsaber and you're
dead. That would make a big improvement in duel authenticity. :)
Ofcourse if a kick is blocked the opponent should be legless ^.^
Hm, but if we're going to compare to the movies kicks would only be used by dark jedi and those close to the dark. (For example Luke gave Vader a kick in RotJ in an angry rage , but outside of that all the light jedi have only ever used attacks with their saber.)
But ofcourse that might spoil the fun for some players.
As for the lightsabers, I certainly agree that damage needs to be made heavy, like it was when JKII came out. 1 or two hits with a lightsaber and you're dead. That would make a big improvement in duel authenticity.
I agree on this. Even in duels one or two hits should kill. I think a long, drawn out duel should result from skillful blocking, instead of this reduced saber damage. Having to slice someone five times with a saber seems stupid to me.
People seriously play CTF with sabers only?
I'm not trying to sound mean, but I mean... for real...?
That's gotta be frustrating... even with saberdamagescale turned up and blocking turned down!
Originally posted by Kurgan
People seriously play CTF with sabers only?
I'm not trying to sound mean, but I mean... for real...?
That's gotta be frustrating... even with saberdamagescale turned up and blocking turned down! It's true! Check the servers!
I was looking around, decided to play my first CTF ever (any game) a couple of weeks ago ... I saw that - saber only?!?! Needless to say I went to a 'normal' server and proceeded to get sniped almost immediately ;) isn't that what it's all about :D
Mike
Sigh... I'll never understand.
This discussion may all be for naught, since (correct me if I am wrong) it hasn't been confirmed that the "flip kick" is even in JA. I think all we know for sure is that the lightstaff kick is available, correct?
do you know the cheat so you can kick & punch in SP? I don't think you can actually kick like you can in MP, but to punch you first give youself fists (give weaponnum 14 I believe). Then the fire and alt-fire buttons do right and left punches. This works in first persona and third person.
Originally posted by txa1265
Needless to say I went to a 'normal' server and proceeded to get sniped almost immediately isn't that what it's all about Those pesky sniping Jedi! They have no honour! :D
i thought you can only kick with the saberstaff...cause in the official site they only show kick moves on that saber, and not on the regular moves or whatnot....
i'd say successful kicks do 5% damage, knock the player back and leave tehm open for a 1/2 second. More powerful kicks might also knock down.
However, any hit whilst in a kicking animation should do 50% more damage.
Originally posted by toms
i'd say successful kicks do 5% damage, knock the player back and leave tehm open for a 1/2 second. More powerful kicks might also knock down.
However, any hit whilst in a kicking animation should do 50% more damage. I completely agree - kicks should not be a primary offense, but a strategic move to open defences.
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
I completely agree - kicks should not be a primary offense, but a strategic move to open defences.
Mike Absolutely. At the very least, it should be a more potent weapon than the lightsaber :)
I enjoy the ground stabs, because there will be a lot of instances when a player is knocked to the floor. I have no problem with kicking, saber locks, or ground stabs ;)
It puts more style and strategy into the gameplay...
Originally posted by Obi-Wan X
It puts more style and strategy into the gameplay... Quite agree - given how you can do so many 'on the ground' moves ... it should be a blast!
Mike