I downloaded the media pack for the JA and noticed that the Kyle model looks identical to the Jk2 one... now I'm hoping that the other models are higher quality and at least a little different from the JK2 ones. Luke looks different, and that's good. Well regardless of whether different models are used or not, I'll still play the game.

I would expect some of the same charachters but hopefully improved a bit. I hear Kyle is the same but Luke looks different.

I would really like to see Tavion again. She could switch over and go to the Academy and train to be a good jedi.


But she really needs a skimpier outfit.

What?? That amazon thing in JO was so lame.

And as for Kyle, his model is perfectly fine, but the outfit should change. He's been wearing that since the first JK game...

Originally posted by Emon
And as for Kyle, his model is perfectly fine, but the outfit should change. He's been wearing that since the first JK game...

Or at least have a laundry room easter egg like in Elite Force II ... but this time you find Kyle washing his outfit, wearing a robe and bunny slippers ;)

Mike

I tend to think that just about all of the models will be enhanced in some way, but returning characters will likely be pretty similar - especially since it happens pretty much right after JO.

I would like to see a larger number of models used. Stormies are easy- one model. But more Rodian variation and Ree-Yee, and certainly more humans.

I'd rather have more un-enhanced models than fewer enhanced models.

... and more NPC's ... (I know that has nothing to do with this, but I still want more!)

Mike

I don't see a major problem if they use an existing model as a basis and improve it. But I have to agree about Kyle. I mean, even if clothing is designed to last for a very long time in the Star Wars universe, the guy needs a change of wardrobe. :rolleyes:

The same could be said for Luke. Why is he still in that black outfit? Give him the clothes he had in ANH for a bit of variety.

And I agree with Mike about NPCs. I want to see lots of NPCs. :D

I don't mind some of the models being reused. If gameplay is improved, then I will be happy :)

i want to see more jeid, not just the borring jedi jedi2 jedif jeditrainer, i want some alian ones, diferent ones, since you can be diferent in so many ways, make alot of jedi the same, diferent!!

Originally posted by taekwondo joe
i want to see more jeid, not just the borring jedi jedi2 jedif jeditrainer, i want some alian ones, diferent ones, since you can be diferent in so many ways, make alot of jedi the same, diferent!!

I totally agree. I want to see other alien Jedi students/teachers at the Academy. And it would be good to see alien Jedi enemies too. Mix it up. They don't all have to be instantly recognisable as 'bad guys' or 'good guys'. Add greater variety. When someone starts firing at you...you know who to kill. :D

Well Luke's black of more of a uniform, it's a style of Jedi garb. Similar the the same old Jedi robes almost all the Jedi ware, it's their proper attire.

But Kyle and Jan don't have that kind of uniform... they need to change more...

I understand that JA only takes place like a year after JO, but sheesh like most of you said, Kyle and Luke should at least wear something different. I can just imagine Luke having a wardrobe full of similar looking black uniforms, and Kyle's wardrobe packed with bantha herder clothes, all identical... It's minor but it would add more to the "new game" feel if the characters at least wore different clothes as opposed to the "more of the same as JO" feel that some guys seem to be experiencing...

Originally posted by StormHammer
I totally agree. I want to see other alien Jedi students/teachers at the Academy. And it would be good to see alien Jedi enemies too. Mix it up. They don't all have to be instantly recognisable as 'bad guys' or 'good guys'. Add greater variety. When someone starts firing at you...you know who to kill. :D

I would be disappointed if they didn't put all of the new skeletal systems and models into use for different species of Jedi and enemies. The enemy saber weilders, though, it depends on what this 'cult' is - in JO it made sense for them to be human because of the story.

Mike

They don't all have to be instantly recognisable as 'bad guys' or 'good guys'. Add greater variety. When someone starts firing at you...you know who to kill.
Yeh, it'd be cool if you were walking through a crowd of people, when suddenly a guy unexpectedly turns around and draws a blaster or lightsaber.

Neutral NPCs are what this game REALLY needs. Like in Bounty Hunter.

Well i think i pretty much agree with everyone here, Neutral NPCs are really needed as much as alien jedi etc. I mean we're not all human are we!

Kyle and Luke got the same wardrobe style as Donald Duck :D

I was playing a couple of created SP maps - NS again and coruscant underground (or something like that) - anyway they had several of those little short guys from bespin running around - basically as neutral NPC's, right. So - if you got in a fight near them - even if you didn't touch them - they had this tendency later to grab a dropped weapon and open fire. And they were still gray and not red in your reticule! I ended up just cutting them up because I didn't want to suffer another sneak attack.

To me, this game is looking a lot like JO aside from new people,new levels, force powers, and weaponry. I mean the least they could do was make a variety of enemies and characters, and update models instead of rehashing.

The lighting has been improved vastly, and it look as if they doubled texture resolution.

To me, this game is looking a lot like JO aside from new people,new levels, force powers, and weaponry. I mean the least they could do was make a variety of enemies and characters, and update models instead of rehashing.

Ok - so everything is new - but you want a variety of enemies and characters. I somehow doubt that any but the most popular characters will make an appearance - i.e. if these characters were completely left out there would be complaining. The player characters are completely new models....from screen shots enemies look completely different - no hooded reborn. There are animals to fight including a rancor. I hope there will be a greater variety of alien badies this time around - though of course there were quite a few in JO. We've already heard that models will be enhanced a bit from the previous game - even though they'll be wearing the same clothes - which has already been discussed. I don't get what the complaint is about.

what happned to my sig????????? any way i just want civilions and alian jedi, thats all, thats not tooooooooo much to ask for now is it

Maybe that didn't come across the way I wanted it to

From what I've SEEN, I have seen some of the exact same enemies from JO, I've seen the exact same weapons aside from two new ones ( Tell me if im wrong), some multiplayer force powers that were made usable in single player. New game modes, etc. This may seem to be a lot, but to me it screams expansion. I know a lot of things were done to make the game look better, and to add more flavor.

I don't know, I just feel as if this game is coming off as completely new. But to me it seems like an expansion.

With the apparent release date (Sept. 16th) coming closer, I tend to agree with you... I fear JA will be very much the same like JO :( I mean, I haven't seen anything really new in the screens and movies, even the sabers look the same; the same bugs etc :(

Originally posted by Emon
Yeah, all of the bugs are real easy to see in still screenshots. :rolleyes:

Yes, they are - SEVERE framerate problems ... they better tune that system before release. I've been staring at the same screen since E3 and the thing hasn't moved yet, what's that <0.5 FPM (frames per month)? ;)

The MotS of JO?
- JA is supposed to be longer than JO, MotS was ~67% as long as JK.
- More & changed weapons, new & changed force powers - same.
- Kyle as protagonist, Mara as new character in MotS. In JA you choose and build your character.
- Force Power selection by stars same in MotS as JK, with removal of alignment. JA completely changes this, putting alignment back into the mix.

Honestly, I see the relationship of JO and JA more like Elite Force I and II than JK & MotS.

Mike

Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up? JO had its fair share of problems, but it was a good game despite them. I don't think anyone here will argue that. What's wrong with a heavily modified JO with developer attention focused on the areas that 'went wrong'? Lots of games do that for their sequels. UT, almost all sports games, etc. I think people had too high expectations of the game, but that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by only1kenobi
I can just imagine Luke having a wardrobe full of similar looking black uniforms, and Kyle's wardrobe packed with bantha herder clothes, all identical... Like just about everyone else in Star Wars? :)

Originally posted by JediLurker
I don't think anyone here will argue that.

Actually, there are many here who WILL argue that ... and it seems that the closer we get to JA the worse some people see it in retrospect. There are some who post with a tone that presumes JO as crap ... I'll not be surprised if by mid-September some people here will be vomiting at the mere mention of JO like people on the streets of Postal 2 (http://www.gopostal.com/postal2/screenshots/toxic.jpg) :rolleyes:

What's wrong with a heavily modified JO with developer attention focused on the areas that 'went wrong'?

Nothing. Take something great by most people's estimates, improve the good points, fix and eliminate the trouble points, go back to areas you couldn't do before ... I can't wait.

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
Actually, there are many here who WILL argue that ...

Yeah, you're right. In retrospect I realized how dumb that sounded given some of the content here. Anyway, I can't wait either.

Originally posted by JediLurker
Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up? JO had its fair share of problems, but it was a good game despite them. I don't think anyone here will argue that. What's wrong with a heavily modified JO with developer attention focused on the areas that 'went wrong'? Lots of games do that for their sequels. UT, almost all sports games, etc. I think people had too high expectations of the game, but that's just my opinion.

Very well said. UT2K3 and UT2K4 are a perfect example. UT2K4 adds new team combat, overhauls the engine, adds vehicles, etc. A lot like JA's improvements, infact.

Originally posted by JediLurker
Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up?

Well that depends on the foundation of the previous game. Should a developer be allowed to attempt the construction of a skyscraper when all they managed to build the first time was an 5-floor brick building that feels like you've lived in it before?

Really, what fundamental, far-reaching improvments did JO really bring to the Dark Forces experience aside from improved lighsabre mechanics (and only in SP, as the MP implemenation was poorly executed?)

Was the storyline more engaging than DF or JK? No, The DF story arch brought you the most diverse number of locations and JK had a progression that reflected your actions with multiple endings to boot.

Were the levels better designed for engaging play? No, DF had brilliantly implemented "puzzles" that did not feel extemporaneous while Jk had worked unmatched scale of size into their design. Raven somehow also managed to include fewer NPCs in their levels than JK.

Were the enemies signifigantly more fun to engage? No, the bread and butter of your enemies in every SW FPS to date, the stormies, where irritatingly hard to engage, almost acrobatic in their juking and dodging (especially with a blaster). And where were the numerous flying enemies?

Was was the weaponset outside of the lightsabre more fun to use? No, the arsenal in JO was a step backwards due to the triteness of its heavier guns (rocketlauncher, grendate launcher/mp5, flak cannon, respectively).

Did the multiplayer offer anything significantly different in MP that veteran JKers hadn't done unofficially in games for years? No.

Most of my major qualifications for the DF series and some from FPSes in general simply were not met.

The only thing that has really bothered me from the screenshots is that the sabers seem to spin in hands that don't move. It's really common to see a saber sticking out of the middle of a hand. Maybe it's something we'll just have to live with - and it probably won't bother me when I am actually playing - but I don't remember that sort of thing in JO.

I don't really mind the reused models but I would like to see higher quality skins for them. The Kyle outfit is getting old and so are the Weequay and Rodian... Also you think they should get newer, upgraded sounds?

Originally posted by Prime
Like just about everyone else in Star Wars? :)

Just about, but Padme never wears the same outfit twice... hmmmm Padme :D :D

if it is a good game and has decent models i dont really care, i will still love the game, and there will probably be mods where you can replace kyle with another version of kyle so it doesnt really matter

I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape over things that are so easy to change. My guess is two days after the release someone will come out with a Kyle and Luke mod to change their skins. And if someone slightly understands directory structures, they can replace them easily enough themselves with something from JO (at least according to the dev team thus far).

Originally posted by Sargasso
"Really, when you think about it, so what if JA is JO beefed up?" - JediLurker

Well that depends on the foundation of the previous game. Should a developer be allowed to attempt the construction of a skyscraper when all they managed to build the first time was an 5-floor brick building that feels like you've lived in it before? But if the building is solid and you loved to live there, then yes :) Who cares if you lived there before? Fun = Fun, doesn't it?

Originally posted by Sargasso
Really, what fundamental, far-reaching improvments did JO really bring to the Dark Forces experience aside from improved lighsabre mechanics (and only in SP, as the MP implemenation was poorly executed?) The improved lightsaber combat was a big improvement, though. The graphics were much better, simply due to advanced technology over its ancestors. The AI was better for the most part. But again, why are sweeping differences necessary? If Dark Forces and JK were great, why not take those good elements and make some new improvements?

Originally posted by Sargasso
Was the storyline more engaging than DF or JK? No, The DF story arch brought you the most diverse number of locations and JK had a progression that reflected your actions with multiple endings to boot. This is, of course, a matter of opinion. But I agree that the JK story was probably better than JO, but I liked JO too in this regard.

As for the different endings and ability to choose your force powers, this was left out in JO because it was decided that they could build better levels if they know exactly what force powers the player would have, as opposed to going with the lowest common denominator. They are going back to this to some extent in JA, though.

Originally posted by Sargasso
Were the levels better designed for engaging play? No, DF had brilliantly implemented "puzzles" that did not feel extemporaneous while Jk had worked unmatched scale of size into their design. Raven somehow also managed to include fewer NPCs in their levels than JK. I agree that more NPCs would have been better, but I did like running around Bespin, especially in the carbon chambers. :)

Originally posted by Sargasso
Were the enemies signifigantly more fun to engage? No, the bread and butter of your enemies in every SW FPS to date, the stormies, where irritatingly hard to engage, almost acrobatic in their juking and dodging (especially with a blaster). And where were the numerous flying enemies? The Reborn? Hell Yes! I would have liked JO simply because of the lightsaber fights. I'm not really sure what you mean by "hard to engage", though. The stormtroopers ducked and stuff, but other than that they were pretty easy to hit, but they did employ tactics, like trying to surround you. This is an improvement over JK. There were a few flying enemies, like interegation and probe droids. Personally, I could do without flying enemies...

Originally posted by Sargasso
Was was the weaponset outside of the lightsabre more fun to use? No, the arsenal in JO was a step backwards due to the triteness of its heavier guns (rocketlauncher, grendate launcher/mp5, flak cannon, respectively). Loved the sniper rifle. That was a blast. I also liked picking off enemies at long range with the bryar. I didn't mind the other weapons one way or another. I was too busy chopping people with my lightsaber. What gun is going to be more fun that that? :D

Originally posted by Sargasso
Did the multiplayer offer anything significantly different in MP that veteran JKers hadn't done unofficially in games for years? No. Again, so what? If those mods were good, then Raven was wise to follow their lead. Just because they didn't implement something completely new doesn't mean it was bad. They went with what people liked and was popular. The improved lighsaber combat in MP was worth the price of admission right there (spammers not withstanding), IMO.

Originally posted by Sargasso
Most of my major qualifications for the DF series and some from FPSes in general simply were not met. Fair enough. Then you probably should avoid getting Jedi Academy, as I get the impression that it will be quite similar to JO, but with improvements based on lessons learned.

JO met and exceeded my qualifications for a DF game:

- lightsaber: CHECK
- Kyle Katarn: CHECK
- pile o'weapons: CHECK
- stormtroopers: CHECK
- evil Jedi: CHECK
- great sound effects: CHECK
- had fun playing: CHECK

:D

Originally posted by Prime
Fair enough. Then you probably should avoid getting Jedi Academy, as I get the impression that it will be quite similar to JO, but with improvements based on lessons learned.

JO met and exceeded my qualifications for a DF game:

- lightsaber: CHECK
- Kyle Katarn: CHECK
- pile o'weapons: CHECK
- stormtroopers: CHECK
- evil Jedi: CHECK
- great sound effects: CHECK
- had fun playing: CHECK

:D

That is what I said in a different thread. He has been very down on JO in every regard - which I am fine with, as it is his opinion and diversity of opinions is never a bad thing. But as I said, he has always been down on JO, so I can't see him liking JA very much. Too bad, he was obviously a big fan of the previous games.

JO met and exceeded my qualifications for a DF game:


Mine, too ... add on:
- Star Wars feel - Check
- Awesome music - Check
- Fun duels - Check
- Feel like a Jedi - Check
- Fun enough for lots of replay? - Check!

Now I just can't wait to see what JA adds to that mix - where will it fall on my top games list? How will it effect my replay of JO?

Mike

JK was way better then JO, but JO is a great gmae, just jk is all time fave for me.

jk is better in,

story
cut scenes
replayable levles
big outdoor levels
npcs, lots of them
two endings
bad guys
weapons
force powers
_______________________
jo is better in

graphics
saber, and saber combat
ai
luke was fighting with you!!
force jump
normal badies
+++++++
so over all jk is better, but jo overed everything that makes a great game

fun
replayable
good story
graphics
jedi
force
kyle
and so on

Originally posted by Prime
But if the building is solid and you loved to live there, then [b]yes :) Who cares if you lived there before? Fun = Fun, doesn't it?

Actually, I tend to have more fun doing something I haven't experienced before or isn't too familiar. That's why I wouldn't want to live in the same place for too long a time.* 5+ years is too long a time., imo.

... But again, why are sweeping differences necessary? If Dark Forces and JK were great, why not take those good elements and make some new improvements?

A couple of reasons.

1) There are only a few games from LEC that have used the coveted Star Wars universe in an FPS over the years and they only come along once every few years (on average). It is a precious resource that needs to be used to its maximum potential. By not innovating as much as the previous installments, this potential was not utilized.

2) The last game in the series was ~5 years from JO and the industry has witnessed innovative advancement much beyond JK. I'm all for building off of the base of DF and JK... but these new improvements can be dramatic and still remain faithful to the franchise.... and imo they should be because that's the way I like it. Seen * above.

As for the different endings and ability to choose your force powers, this was left out in JO because it was decided that they could build better levels if they know exactly what force powers the player would have, as opposed to going with the lowest common denominator.

Ah, yes, I'd call that the "path" of least resistance for both the player and the developers (pun intended). If this is really such a good system then why, as you mentioned, are they doing away with it in JA?

I agree that more NPCs would have been better, but I did like running around Bespin, especially in the carbon chambers. :)

Not all that important to mention, but what is the correllation between JO not having enough NPCs and you liking playing in the famous SW locale?

The Reborn? Hell Yes! I would have liked JO simply because of the lightsaber fights. I'm not really sure what you mean by "hard to engage", though. The stormtroopers ducked and stuff, but other than that they were pretty easy to hit, but they did employ tactics, like trying to surround you. This is an improvement over JK.

I'm not as easily satisfied.

The stormies were too quick and too nimble for both the movies and my skills. I can't prove that I'm no slouch in FPSes... you'll just have to take my word for it.

Again, so what? If those mods were good, then Raven was wise to follow their lead. Just because they didn't implement something completely new doesn't mean it was bad. They went with what people liked and was popular. The improved lighsaber combat in MP was worth the price of admission right there (spammers not withstanding), IMO.

See * again.

Fair enough. Then you probably should avoid getting Jedi Academy, as I get the impression that it will be quite similar to JO, but with improvements based on lessons learned.

JA looks more promising, more like the game JO should have been. Back at least to its RPG roots and multiplayer that at least draws from some of the innovation from the 6+ years after JK.

Originally posted by txa1265
[B]That is what I said in a different thread. He has been very down on JO in every regard - which I am fine with, as it is his opinion and diversity of opinions is never a bad thing.

I've acknowledged before that saber combat mechanics were improved in JO.

Originally posted by txa1265
That is what I said in a different thread. He has been very down on JO in every regard - which I am fine with, as it is his opinion and diversity of opinions is never a bad thing.

Originally posted by Sargasso
[B]I've acknowledged before that saber combat mechanics were improved in JO.

OK, let me clarify, every post you make regarding JO is on whole negative, although you will grant that the saber combat had been improved since JK.

Mike

Originally posted by only1kenobi
I downloaded the media pack for the JA and noticed that the Kyle model looks identical to the Jk2 one... now I'm hoping that the other models are higher quality and at least a little different from the JK2 ones. Luke looks different, and that's good. Well regardless of whether different models are used or not, I'll still play the game.

They really should have given Kyle a more "Jediysh" style this time... hes been wearing these clothes quite some time now! :p