Hello All.

I have a question regarding the saber stances in Jedi Academy. In the FAQ it states:


Q. Are there any new lightsaber stances?

A. Yes. New moves have been implemented for single-saber combat, and both the Dual Sabers and Lightstaff will have their own stances. You will be able to kick in any direction when using the Lightstaff.


Does this mean that Dual Sabers and the Lightstaff will only have one stance each? Or the traditional 3? Any ideas?

Dual Sabers and Lightstaff have one stance only, but there's a ton of moves for each. A single saber has three starting stances (all redone), plus the ability to learn additional unique styles as you progress through the game.

while yes it is a disapointment that the dual saber and lightstaff have only one stance, I am hoping that they will have more moves that you could ever need, with the new moves in the single saber stances. This compiled with the new hand to hand combat, and the role away moves while on the ground, also hoping they have new wall running/wall flipping animations. I think it is great how I explained it IMO. So having a lack of stances shouldn't hinder game play.

hand to hand combat? where d'you get that?

sounds like with dual sabers you might be able to put (throw) away one and then use single stances. maybe.

i always thought the stances were a good idea done badly, so i'd be happy if every saber setup only had one stance. but that is just me.

sounds like with dual sabers you might be able to put (throw) away one and then use single stances. maybe.

I hope that's not true. It completely takes away the need for a single saber, everyone you see playing would spawn with dual and then whenever they lost the need for two they would throw one away :mad: :band:

Originally posted by toms
sounds like with dual sabers you might be able to put (throw) away one and then use single stances. maybe.

i always thought the stances were a good idea done badly, so i'd be happy if every saber setup only had one stance. but that is just me.

Of course, you generally equate playing JO with getting a stick in the eye, so ... ;)

I think it was a good idea done very well - at least in SP. The combination of stances and swings and special moves allows mixing things up quite a bit. It was nice seeing enemies mix up their moves as well. I think everyone developed a fave, but not everyone chose the same, I bet.

I think it makes sense to have a single stance for the staff, because it gets the extra moves. Same for dual sabers. Single saber I still would like to be able to mix it up.

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
I think it was a good idea done very well - at least in SP. I agree. I found each stance useful in SP... :)

Originally posted by Tinny
hand to hand combat? where d'you get that?

Sorry I meant that you could kick the oppnent in some stances, which should have been in jedi knight games, a long time ago.

hehe, ok. that would be pretty cool though, if you lost ur lightsaber or if it was thrown away like what darth maul did to obi wan's, you could engage hand to hand with jedish martial arts. dodge sword slashes like jet li and kick them in the face.

Originally posted by Tinny
hehe, ok. that would be pretty cool though, if you lost ur lightsaber or if it was thrown away like what darth maul did to obi wan's, you could engage hand to hand with jedish martial arts. dodge sword slashes like jet li and kick them in the face.

hahaha. In reality : the jedi would predict the kick, then 10 seconds later the wanna be jet lee would be on the ground shaking in pain nursing a stumped leg. hehehe :cool:

i think with the duel sabers the game does let you throw one saber and attack with the other, although i doubt a jedi could maintain enough concerntration to levitate the saber and fight at the same time, i think it will probably provide good balance. i know for sure the lightstaff cannot be thrown *laughs at the idea of darth maul trying to catch it on return and getting cut in half*

as for the issue with duel sabers dropping one and being able to use single stance, maybe they should implement a system where you specialize by selecting the style of your choice and there after any other style u tried to use would be useless, eg Blade of Darkness. the weapons not in the chars specialized style were so useless you'd be better using your fists.

in the JA case you would just be slow attacking and your defense would be near twice as easy to break than normal.

also Does anyone think that saber hilts should be able to be cut so that a player must kill someone else to get another saber ofcoarse this is in MP. and people who use lightstaff would have to gain 2 sabers and PERMANENTLY join them together to get their staff back. its probably a dumb idea and even i think its kinda dodge, but still its ....... yeah lol

No, I don't think so. Anyway, what if you killed a guy with a doublesaber? Then what do you get? A triplesaber? :p

Originally posted by Rockstar
Does anyone think that saber hilts should be able to be cut so that a player must kill someone else to get another saber ofcoarse this is in MP. and people who use lightstaff would have to gain 2 sabers and PERMANENTLY join them together to get their staff back. its probably a dumb idea and even i think its kinda dodge, but still its ....... yeah lol

As interesting as that sounds, picture this:

- Someone good joins a server with 15 others and starts taking away their sabers and destroying them. You end up with 15 unarmed people and 1 guy with 16 sabers running around taunting them.. What do they do? Maybe start chatting, standing on each other, bowing randomly ... oh wait, that's what they do now and they HAVE sabers ... ;)

Mike

I find it extremely stupid to not be able to holster one saber or turn off one side of the saber staff. I don't do much MP, but if there is that limitation in SP I will simply bind a cheat. If you want a single saber - then use a single saber - problem solved.

I wonder what is the purpose of these weapons being in the game (what are the designers' intentions) besides just having to have double saber and the staff like in the movies.

Is it the "different setups for different purposes" idea, - everyone carries 2 sabers and a staff and flips out a weapon upon need?

OR

Is it "everyone is a style specialist" idea, you need to stick to your specialty setup?

The second idea sounds more reasonable. Guys who choose the staff have default mastery of it, while they would be really slow with a saber, or with one in each hand. And the double saber guys should have difficulties with the staff or single saber.

But really, we don't know many details, maybe all that is ballanced for JA in some other ways we haven't thought about.

Having different styles for a character would be intersting - however I would point out that - at least according to the info we have - dual/staff come after single saber styles - i.e. I think the idea is one will master the single saber before moving into the dual/staff styles. I have noticed that whichever style I play with most I tend to become better at though. If I duel with one style for a couple of days, then switch to another my timing/range etc. are a bit off for a while, so the game kind of takes care of that.

Repherence,
true what you are saying about natural "specialization".

The way to encourage such natural specialization would be

to make it difficult to change styles (even a special button for changing stances is too much for me to change stances in the same duel a lot:)) and
make styles play out really differently: different distance, speed, interactivity (parrying or not, knockign defenses away or not), and different types of moves - turning, thrusting, slashing, force usage).
Double sabers are said to be featuring a lot of turning and acrobatics. That's nice, I wonder how will other styles differ.

From the recent game movies, it looks like we'll be able to wield either dual sabers or a light staff, and switch back to a single saber when ever we want. This way everyone has access to the same number of stances. We won't be able to switch from dual sabers to a light staff which is good.

Either way, in Singleplayer at least, you'll probably _have_ to choose Dual Saber or Lightstaff after you've mastered Single Saber, and then opt to not ignite one/half.

In my opinion regarding saber throws, in JO the saber didn't spin on the way back. If a lightstaff isn't spinning on the way back then a Jedi should be able to catch it safely. Also, if the sabers _were_ somehow spinning on the way back then they would probably change from spinning horizontally to spinning vertically on the way back, and then no matter what saber you have a Jedi could catch it.

Imagine that though.... That would be crazy cool deflecting lasers with your lightstaff spinning... Anyway do you think they'd make it so you can block with your other saber in hand (dual sabers of course. In Omnimod and others for JO, you could still get hit even though the other saber was ignited.).

firstly, about the hilt chopping idea. remember i DID say it was stupid lol ;)


Originally posted by Shotokan
Imagine that though.... That would be crazy cool deflecting lasers with your lightstaff spinning...
umm thats a bit too DBZ style for me lol, and the blaster shot would probably knock it out of his hand while spinning it hehehe


Originally posted by Kurgan
It sounds like they are not going to make the Lightstaff throwable, however there are many logical ways it COULD be thrown by a force sensitive user.

For example, he could throw it (like throwing a stick for a dog to fetch) with blades extinguished. Then as it flies toward the enemy it could "level out" and spin with blades igniting (use the Force, duh, how do you think the regular saber "comes back" magically?).

Or he could toss it straight forward with blades ignited, like Luke does in Star Wars Inifinities: A New Hope when he's taking out those Imperial Guardsmen (he uses a lightstaff against them).
Just catch it on the return the same way you threw it.

Limiting force power use while the saberstaff is held also makes no sense (since when does a person need to "wave a hand" to use the Force? or better yet, why can't a Jedi just hold the staff with one hand, as Maul was able to do, and use the Force with his free hand?), but I guess they're changing the movie mythos and logic in favor of gameplay balance. Not how I would do it, but oh well... we'll see how it pans out in the final version.

I'm mostly interested to see how the dual and lightstaff sabers will be handled in Multiplayer.

i think the no throwing is for balance more than anything. what you suggested would work against troops, tho there is the impracticality that throwing your staff at a jedi would probably result in it being cut in half (which wouldn't be hard with the large hilt)

yes darth maul used acrobatics and skill to not slice himself in half. but i think throwing a lightstaff would be quite orkward and involve more hassle for a jedi then just the standard throw and catch drill lol. who knows i may be wrong, but i think that it will probably be a balancing issue more than anything.

some good ideas tho :)

I wonder what is the purpose of these weapons being in the game (what are the designers' intentions) besides just having to have double saber and the staff like in the movies.

Is it the "different setups for different purposes" idea, - everyone carries 2 sabers and a staff and flips out a weapon upon need?

OR

Is it "everyone is a style specialist" idea, you need to stick to your specialty setup?

The second idea sounds more reasonable. Guys who choose the staff have default mastery of it, while they would be really slow with a saber, or with one in each hand. And the double saber guys should have difficulties with the staff or single saber.

But really, we don't know many details, maybe all that is ballanced for JA in some other ways we haven't thought about.


the second option sounds alot better, but i think the game should allow the player to carry all three sabers, but only enough points or exp to master one of them; u can still use all of them but u can only have access to the more powerful attacks and special moves to one of them. u'll still have to use the single saber first, but it was neva mention wether u HAVE to master the single saber, maybe halfway thru u can decide if u wanna master other weapons or stick to the single one

Originally posted by Kurgan
Limiting force power use while the saberstaff is held also makes no sense (since when does a person need to "wave a hand" to use the Force? or better yet, why can't a Jedi just hold the staff with one hand, as Maul was able to do, and use the Force with his free hand?), but I guess they're changing the movie mythos and logic in favor of gameplay balance. Not how I would do it, but oh well... we'll see how it pans out in the final version.

I'm mostly interested to see how the dual and lightstaff sabers will be handled in Multiplayer.
I thought it was only force that required hands, like lightning, push/pull, grip, drain etc. Absorb or heal and all should still work, I think. :)

Yeah, MP balance will hopefully be good this time round.

IMHO, limiting force use for the lightstaff is utterly nonesensical from a canon standpoint.

I also hated the "lightsabers don't work in water" deal in JK2. Granted, at least AT THE TIME (prior to AOTC) it almost made sense (based on extra-canonical TPM info that was never filmed).

We also know from the EU (ANH Infinities) at least one way that ignited lightstaffs could be throwable without endangering the thrower.

Frankly I think there are more viable solutions to "balancing" the lightstaff for both SP and MP, but I guess the Raven guy's have the final say.

Examples:

1) (MP) Make dual lightsabers a pickup option like in UT with the enforcer pistols.. pick up a second one from a dead player and you can use two if the server allows it. Make the Lightstaff a weapon pickup that replaces the saber or is usable in addition to the saber until you lose it (throw it and it doesn't come back) or you die. Perhaps it could be made pullable or destroyable? If it was a pickup item, it could even be made superior to the saber in certain situations and it wouldn't unbalance because anyone could pick it up, but nobody would start with it.

2) (MP) Make the lightstaff and dual sabers class based. Ie: certain classes use these while others use single sabers, or no sabers. Build in other weaknesses (shields, health, speed, item use, other weapon use, etc) to balance them out.

3) (MP) Make dual and lightstaff sabers use up more force points to start with, while a regular saber uses less and no saber saves you points to use on other stuff. Thus you can have a better weapon, or more points to spend on force powers (or abilities if you're a non-jedi).

4) (SP) Make each weapon better in different situations. Ie: on a stealth mission, the super sabers are "nosier" or something, or more likely to hit civilians than a precise single saber. Or perhaps you fight against opponents you are more skilled against one type, so you have to switch.

5) (SP) Introduce a "mastering" system for the sabers. Ie: the longer you use the single saber the better you get (gaining stances, higher defense, etc). When you get the new dual and lightstaff sabers, they start out weaker, and you have to "build" them as you go, but at their highest level they could be stronger than a single saber. Unfortunately with only one stance each, it looks like they are dead set against this.

6) (SP) They may already be doing this, but you have to complete certain missions to get the new saber types. If you don't complete them, you don't get them. So they are like easter eggs. They can be more powerful than the single saber, because balance doesn't matter so much in SP anyway (AI doesn't complain when they get cheaped, heh).

Maybe a mod will be in order... anyway, that is how I might do it if it were up to me.

Another example...

You could make the Lightstaff throwable, but have it spin less, and move slower (to be more "careful" with it) and perhaps make it so you have to actually "pull" it back (or physically go and touch it) rather than have it come right back.

This would put in a slight disadvantage without making it weak. After all, if they are going to disable half your force powers (which might be ALL your important powers in MP depending on what you chose) they better have made it super powerful to make up for it.

Yet all we've heard is that it has only one stance (like the dual lightsabers, which sound by far the most powerful) and that you can "kick" anytime (good for style, but anymore powerful than a fist? Does it knock you flat on your back? blockable? does it leave you open to a free hit?) and possibly block behind your back (how often? can you block crotch shots?). I guess we'll have to play it to find out, but I honestly don't have a very good feeling about the lightstaff from what I've been hearing (unless of course this is just SP we're hearing about, but Raven/LA keeps saying the SP and MP are going to be almost exactly the same, so maybe it will have the same solution applied both places, hence my worries...).

Originally posted by Kurgan

5) (SP) Introduce a "mastering" system for the sabers. Ie: the longer you use the single saber the better you get (gaining stances, higher defense, etc). When you get the new dual and lightstaff sabers, they start out weaker, and you have to "build" them as you go, but at their highest level they could be stronger than a single saber. Unfortunately with only one stance each, it looks like they are dead set against this.
I very much think that this would be a very good addition ... that we won't see due to the complexity of doing it ...

It is truly a RPG element - progression of skills. But the specific progression of skills through use is even more detailed. Think about it - if you showed extreme mastery of the dual sabers, you'd get a +2 to hit or whatever - maybe it would show as little '+' marks next to your attack and defend in your character screen. Mastery of elements would show up there - Stealth for example. If you were able to use stealth (if we had a working 'pursuade' power, for example) successfully, your ability to use it would get much better ... but you wouldn't have any + next to your saber skills.

... Oh - I don't think that at highest level mastery there would be a natural advantage of one saber type over another. They would each have a level of attack/defend, but there would be an overall balance.

Mike

About the force restrictions with the lightstaff... what can't you use? I know you can use lightning (it's at the very end of the trailer) but you probably won't be able to use grip and maybe absorb. I'm not sure.

in reguards to throwing the lightstaff: the single saber is thrown



in reguards to the just having the new saber types requiring more points: this would mean the single saber would be inferior to the other 2 styles

i do like the way they have evened them out by making the 2 new styles have their single stance and allowing the single the multi stances. tho quite frankly from what i've read i think they have been rather silly with the way they have designed the saber balancing when it comes to what is faster, stronger, more defensive etc

the duel sabers have the best defense and the light staff has the best offense :O. whhhaaat? the twin sabers would have to be used at a distance and constantly wielded to back off an opponent. a heavy hit from the single saber would be very hard to block with one hand. also it would be very hard to block with a lightstaff aswell, altho it has pro's of 2 sides, it has the restriction of movement, and that results in the inability to perform hard solid attacks

Originally posted by Rockstar
in reguards to the just having the new saber types requiring more points: this would mean the single saber would be inferior to the other 2 styles It doesn't have to mean that at all. The points merely determine whether you have access to the new stances.

Hopefully no saber style (single, dual or double-bladed) will be inferior to another. If none dominates the rest it'll allow players to pick a favourite and stick with it and don't get ripped up by a n00b that happens to use a better style.
If they balance this as poorly as the JO stances (once you learn heavy well there's no real reason to use another) I'll get depressed and rip myself up with my dual sabers. Or something :D

The Dual Sabers and Double-bladed saber are their own style. Raven did this logically... to extinguish 1 saber (or side) simply switch stances. Therefore, to be be fair, the single saber must have extra stances or more powerful stances.

once you learn heavy well there's no real reason to use another

thats so not true its not funny. stances were very well balanced. there was a strong phase for a while, but then certain people became proficient at fast, and could chop down strong-only sabers with ease.

Wonder who you played against. I've only met one in the last month that used anything but heavy and he got chopped every time he wanted a duel.
And a bunch of guys who use all three... But no "stance specialists" with light or medium (except earlier mentioned guy).

I like fighting with blue, looks like a very dynamic fight then... But onfortunately, for blue you have to be very close, so the red-stance-user only has to swing two times and he'll probably hit you hard...

So I try to use all 3 stances. I usually try to hit someone with red first, then finish it with blue and some yellow strikes. A red-stance-only-fight is sooooo incredibly boooooooring :o

Originally posted by Thazac
Wonder who you played against. I've only met one in the last month that used anything but heavy and he got chopped every time he wanted a duel.

*nods depressingly* the very sad truth......

i thought it was veerrry dull how they didn't make the yellow saber have all the SP swings?? yellow's swings would have looked quite cool in MP and maybe not have led to this red stance dominance. they shoulda made yellow strongest (as it doesn't have the lunge nor DOA and doesn't have ridiculasly strong swings).

the fact that kicks do damage and knock down is another silly thing. they should push you back and not hurt you (the fact that the damage of a kick is even 1/100th comparable to that of a lightsaber is insulting!). and they shouldn't push you down. to get enough thrust into a kick that could knock you down you would have to be far too defensless than one would let themself become infront of another jedi..... (i know you can not get knocked down with red, but i don't see why the others shouldn't do it)

5 hp damage should be enough for kicks, but the fact that they go trough shields should remain... And yeah the stances have to be tweaked, but I'm afraid they didn't tweak 'em nearly as much as we all want :( Still I'm confident lightsaber battles will be much better in JA, because of the two new saber styles!

A red-stance-only-fight is sooooo incredibly boooooooring
... strong stance battles are fast. the worst are the fast only users that just very slowy chip away while only defending and rolling away

Originally posted by ryudom
... strong stance battles are fast. the worst are the fast only users that just very slowy chip away while only defending and rolling away

No, red stance battles only are short when one person is significantly better than the other. If that's not the case, the two fighters usually walk around swinging their saber, afraid of getting too close and they only occasionaly hit eachother... those battles last long!

Blue vs blue can last long because of the low damage, but is at least better to watch at (more dynamic and they actually come close) and if they are good enough, they'll do enough damage to end it quickly :)

The best battles are when two ppl both use all the stances!! Those are the best to look at AND the funniest to play, cause you don't get so bored.

When I'm fighting a pure red-stance-fighter, I have the most chance of winning using only red stance. But I don't do that, I fight normally, otherwise I'M not going to like it... I'd rather lose in a fight which was at least interesting FOR ME, than win after a 5 min boring match where we hardly came close to each other...