I read a old interview with raven software about jk 3 and in the interview they said that all they really had left was to do the cut scenes. So why is it going to take so long to make it go gold.

Originally posted by Blademaster_109
I read a old interview with raven software about jk 3 and in the interview they said that all they really had left was to do the cut scenes. So why is it going to take so long to make it go gold.

Can you quote the source? I remember a '~70% done' quote, but like any project, the final 20% can often take longer than the initial 80% ...

My guess is that if they really are shooting for mid-September release, they'll be tweaking the game right up until Sept 1st. Getting framerates up in SP, checking balance in MP, stuff like that.

Mike

yeah, thats what i think. At least everything leads to a mid september release.

it is basically a JO expansion pack, and considering the time they rushed JO out in im suprised they are spending this long on it. ;)

Originally posted by Blademaster_109
I read a old interview with raven software about jk 3 and in the interview they said that all they really had left was to do the cut scenes. So why is it going to take so long to make it go gold. Because that probably ment coding. The testing phase takes a long time...

Yeah, I can see the testing phase taking a while, and thank god for it. I say take all the time you need and GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. Hell, I'd be perfectly happy waiting 'til X-mas '03 for a good quality game that had been thoroughly tested and balanced.

Here Here!

Originally posted by toms
it is basically a JO expansion pack, and considering the time they rushed JO out in im suprised they are spending this long on it. ;)

Probably has something to do with the fact that this "expansion" is significantly larger than JKII...

Testing, alpha, beta, lots of bugfixing. The more testing and fixing, the better. JO's MP rendering engine was like ass, JA's will likely be much better.

Hmmm...the SP rendering engine could use a bit of improving too...

*Curses that he's getting those stupid errors now in his tat1_base level*

well you saw the amount of rebalancing they had to do in JO, i think they are trying despirately hard to make the force system overall balanced.

btw JA isn't an expansion??

Originally posted by Rockstar
well you saw the amount of rebalancing they had to do in JO, i think they are trying despirately hard to make the force system overall balanced.

btw JA isn't an expansion??

Nope it's standalone :) It uses the same engine and a lot of JO code I believe, but still, it's supposed to be bigger than JA... Doesn't sound like an expansion to me :D But it isn't a sequal either!

if they really release it in september they are gonna be screwed cuz Half-Life and Halo is supposed to be released in september too o and Doom 3 so they will have no chance againts these monster games..imo they will delay the release to november

Nah, Half-Life and Doom III can expect serious competition. JA is one of those games that has a large fanbase, because it's a Star Wars game!! People will buy it anyway :) So I don't think JA really has to suffer from HL2 or Doom III. Personally, I'm going to buy Deus Ex 2, HL2 and of course JA. No Doom III, it just isn't my thing!

Originally posted by «¦gшt ѓшrзл?¦»
if they really release it in september they are gonna be screwed cuz Half-Life and Halo is supposed to be released in september too o and Doom 3 so they will have no chance againts these monster games..imo they will delay the release to november

I disagree.

First I'm not really convinced HL2 will make Sept 30th, but I'll be happily be wrong :) Why? They are releasing 'new' videos now - 10 weeks before purported 'in-store', 8 wks pre-'gold' - that are rehashes of E3 videos, just higher resolution feeds. While JA was 70% done early this spring and should hit mid-Sept, I'm not so sure HL2 can swing it ... we'll see.

Second, I've seen one thing say Doom3 is coming Oct 3rd (IGN). Others say December ...more likely. Stuff I've read lately shows that they're still making some fairly low-level decisions.

Third, I don't see Halo as a big deal, but again I may be wrong - it is a 2 year old XBox game ported to PC. Interesting, and will likely do well. Heck, the XBox version just hit 3 million copies sold. I also expect it to hit the Sept 2nd release target without a problem.

Also, my #3 anticipated game, Deus Ex 2 (JA is #1, KOTOR is #2, HL2 is #4 and Doom 3 is #5) isn't due until late November (I almost said Thanksgiving - apologies for my US-centric thoughts ;) ).

So I see a landscape that looks OK for JA - but that is somewhat dependant on HL2. If HL2 slides into mid-late October, then Halo will have a couple weeks initial splash and JA follow-up, with a 1+ month time to be top news. KOTOR could also be a wildcard in all of this, as the PC version is due 'in the Fall'.

Mike

Question ... would AotC have had a higher box office if Spiderman had been crap?

Possibly, but I think it had its' own 'sweet-spot', and would have maybe got a few million $ 'bump'.

My analogy is that JA is not going to sell 1.5 million hype-fueled copies immediately upon release like 'Enter the Matrix', despite being crap. JA will sell hundreds of thousands to low millions like JO did, and will command full price for a very long time, like JO has.

The MP community will not approach the size of any of the WWII games, but Siege will likely help it be bigger than JO for a while. We'll still have to see what HL2 brings to the MP table.

Mike

Originally posted by txa1265
...We'll still have to see what HL2 brings to the MP table...


We are thinking the same thought. What I am expecting from its multiplayer is what we all expect, more co-op games like CS and and more in depth team game like TFC (Team Fortress Classic).:mob:

But you are right, people will buy this game because it's a Star Wars game. From what I see I looks identical to JO, but it is always the game play that gets you a high quality game.

Till the release of JA I will be dancing around my computer (like Homer Simpson did before going to the chilly cook-off) whining about how I want it to come out now.:monkbomb:

P.S. :barf2: :hatchrun: :toilet1: aren't these smilies the shiznit.

I actually know very little about Doom3 aside from the fact that my system probably can't run it without a major upgrade in my video card. I've never been terribly impressed by Id's single player games, although I hear Doom3 will be entirely single player focused (which will mean the bar is even higher for them to perform in terms of storyline and interaction).

HL2 I also know very little about (again, low-powered graphics for my system will likely make me think twice about buying it), but I hear it is THE anticipated game of the year and that doesn't surprise me in the least. HL1, despite being incredibly dated now was a fantastic game for its time and has had really striking longevity in a market where games are usually big only for about a year or so. This was due largely to the advent of CS and the gradual release of other mods like TFC. I do hope that HL2 does better movement animations this time around. Everyone in HL1, despite all the raves about the graphics, moved around VERY stiffly.

I think that there are some basic economics to consider in terms of three or four MAJOR games coming out at once or at least within 2-4 weeks of each other. Gamers range mostly from mid-teens to mid-twenties, with exceptions of course. These folks are often unemployed or at least have not a whole ton by way of income. They may be getting an allowance or may have a job, but the point is that their funds are limited. Even assuming that the games all retail for $29.99, if four games come out VERY closely spaced together, that's $120.00 (without tax) you're talking about spending on games.

Now, while we all may spend considerably more than that in the course of a year on games, in a one to two month period, that's nothing to sneeze at. So, given the limited funds, which games would be chosen? I think that HL2 and Doom3 would be the big winners, frankly. Not to demean JO, but there's nothing revolutionary about its gameplay or graphics. It will be (hopefully) a solid, fun game with a well-sized built-in fan base, but it will come nowhere close to the hype-machines that are HL2 and Doom3. And those are just the FPS games coming out around that time. We're not even talking about cross-genre competition from sources like KOTOR or whatever Morrowind/Everquest/Galaxies expansion comes out in that time.

I'm sure JA will do fine in the long run, but it will not be a blockbuster by any stretch of the imagination. Its fan base is not quite big enough, and it faces stiff competition from what one would expect to be pretty heavy hitters in terms of taking games to the next level. Now, Doom3 and HL2 may turn out to be like Quake3 was: a killer engine with awesome graphics, but REALLY boring gameplay, or at least considerably limited gameplay straight out of the box. I was never impressed with Q3 as a game as much as I was impressed with it as an engine upon which other better games and mods could be built. Hell, that was even true for Q1 and Q2 (although Q2 at least had decent single player). For both of those games, it was not until various mods (TF, Weapons Factory, CTF, Loki's Minions CTF, etc.) came out that I really could enjoy the games. Even so, I recognize that my personal tastes are a decided minority when it comes to gaming. Plenty of people are only too happy to plunk down their cash for a game with awesome graphics but not much content, if it's got the right brand name on it.

So, in the end, I think JA will be a solid game, a good contender in the market, but if it's released at the wrong time, it could end up having a pretty slow start for the MP community and its sales in general. It will, however, likely be a consistent performer and will continue to sell reasonably well after the initial hype of other games have worn off, and even those who buy HL2 and/or D3 will probably pick it up eventually if they're Star Wars fans.

Originally posted by Solo4114
So, in the end, I think JA will be a solid game, a good contender in the market, but if it's released at the wrong time, it could end up having a pretty slow start for the MP community and its sales in general. It will, however, likely be a consistent performer and will continue to sell reasonably well after the initial hype of other games have worn off, and even those who buy HL2 and/or D3 will probably pick it up eventually if they're Star Wars fans.

I agree with your analysis. :) Having said that, I'm one of those people who hopes to pick up all the major titles released in the last quarter of this year, assuming I'm impressed by playing demos, or I'm willing to take a gamble on certain titles having solid gameplay. That list is quite extensive and includes (but isn't limited to): HL2, DeusEx2, JA, D3, Far Cry, STALKER, Tron 2, KOTOR, Judge Dredd, Halo (PC), Mace Griffin (PC), and UT2K4... And I agree, that is a lot of games being released within a short space of each other, and there must be an impact on sales between them as people have to pick and choose within the confines of their personal budgets. However, I do think JA will be another 'steady plodder' in the games market, and continue to sell well long after the hype has come and gone.

And Emon summed up nicely what probably still has to be done on the game.

I also agree with the sentiment that they should spend as much time as necessary adding the extra polish and ensuring it's as bug-free as possible.

Originally posted by StormHammer
I agree with your analysis. :) Having said that, I'm one of those people who hopes to pick up all the major titles released in the last quarter of this year, assuming I'm impressed by playing demos, or I'm willing to take a gamble on certain titles having solid gameplay.

As am I ... there was a line in a movie some years ago that someone said about 'I'm older and I have more disposable income' ... I think that applies to us ;)

And Solo4114 - are those US$ you're talking? I've assumed $50 + 5% MA sales tax (unless I go home via 'tax free' Nashua NH ...) or almost $60 per game. Based on that your $120 becomes $240, or >$300 for my list for the last 3 months of the year ...

My list is the 5 I mentioned at this point plus Halo and perhaps Mace Griffin - though I may get a 'cube to play Rebel Strike. I'm also going to grab the Mac version of Neverwinter Nights. Demos have been a mixed bag this year - and although I can spare the cash I felt 'burned' by my quick-buy on Unreal 2 and have been gun-shy (pun intended!) since. I've not yet picked up Elite Force II ... may wait for the Mac version, but I have to swing by the mall tomorrow anyway, and I always hear EB calling me when I go in the mall ...


However, I do think JA will be another 'steady plodder' in the games market, and continue to sell well long after the hype has come and gone.

Agree - I also agree that if they need to push it to guarantee better gameplay ... we'll all still be here a month later.

Mike

Hehe... Double Post! :D
Eh... Not Any More! :p

Don't you guys think that JA doesn't have THAT much to fear from those other games?? I mean, because it's a SW game, it appeals to different people anyway, apart from the main group of gamers. Because it's SW, people will buy it anyway.

Personally, I think HL2 and DoomIII are alike on server aspects, but while HL2 looks less good than DoomIII, I think I'll only buy HL2. And no Halo. Don't you guys think that a lot of people don't want two or three zombie/alien-shooters??

Hehe... HertogJan, your posts are after / very close to my posts and vice versa on many threads... I just noticed that. Anyways, I personally haven't played Halo on the XBOX. So I might actually go for that on the PC. I also heard that there are going to be more driveable vehicles? in Halo PC. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. But about your point, yeah too many shooters is overwhelming :D Games Like Half Life and Doom aren't really my thing. Thank goodness for Star Wars otherwise I wouldn't have a FPS to play :) Besides from your basic war/recon games of course.

Originally posted by HertogJan
Don't you guys think that JA doesn't have THAT much to fear from those other games?? I mean, because it's a SW game, it appeals to different people anyway, apart from the main group of gamers. Because it's SW, people will buy it anyway.

Personally, I think HL2 and DoomIII are alike on server aspects, but while HL2 looks less good than DoomIII, I think I'll only buy HL2. And no Halo. Don't you guys think that a lot of people don't want two or three zombie/alien-shooters??

I see Halo, HL2 and Doom3 as very different within the same genre. Halo on the XBox looked to me (I saw all of 5 minutes of someone playing) like your typical Q3 / UT run and gun game, but with really cool vehicles to drive and supposedly good flow and play. That is why I may pass that up - the Breed demo looked like that, and I found that quite boring. HL2 looks very nice - I expect heavy story with lots of action - not action as heavy as the games of today, but still lots of action, but again the emphasis on storyline. Doom3 looks like very little action, mainly suspense and mood. Carmack already said you'll only ever battle 1 or 2 enemies at a time.

I don't understand what you mean 'alike on server aspects'? Doom 3 is [SP] only. Half-Life has lived on CS for 5 years ... we don't know what HL2 will bring yet.

Originally posted by yolkboy
Hehe... Double Post! :D
Eh... Not Any More! :p

I know ... I was having forum response difficulties yesterday (perhaps all the KOTOR traffic? or from here?) and ended up with a couple doubles - thought I cleared them out ...

Mike

This forum tends to be really slow at times... I get it all the time :mad: Time for a server upgrade? :p :p Meh, I think lucasforums is drinking bandwidth as if it was beer already ;)

Oh and of course there are differences between Doom3 and HL2 and Halo, but the thing is, that people will usually buy 2 pretty different game at a time. Maybe they'll get Doom3 AND HL2, but they'll buy one of those two later.

Maybe I'll buy Doom3, but only after reading a lot of reviews and not earlier than like march 2004...

One thing i noticed last year, was the fancy posters in the EB on the windows advertising JK2. I'm almost positive it trolled in an awful lot of buyers (i was buying it anyway :p). Seeing as HL2, D3 and Halo are 'supposed' to come out then, they'll probably get all the publicity and fame even if they are crap.
If JA does release around about that time LA should expect quite a fall in sales compared to jk2 did at launch unless magazines love the game quite a good bit more than jk2 (90-93.5ish it got) and decide to slap it right onto the front cover INSTEAD of HL2/halo. It's ashame that if they go for the early date the game will most likely get trodded on by HL2 even if it's deserving to be bought by alot more people. Most people don't buy 2 games on the one day :p

BUT they do have a preinstalled fanbase, this is sure to get it quite a good few sales- Star wars + people who liked jk2 or even jk1/mots + word of mouth (depends how good the game is, i'm assuming it will be better than JO) + Advertising + reviews. Looking at it like that, it does actually have quite a good chance will most likely get alot more people playing mp than there is JO because i'm hoping there won't be any patches released :)

Originally posted by txa1265
And Solo4114 - are those US$ you're talking? I've assumed $50 + 5% MA sales tax (unless I go home via 'tax free' Nashua NH ...) or almost $60 per game. Based on that your $120 becomes $240, or >$300 for my list for the last 3 months of the year ...

Yeah, US$, and that was a VERY conservative estimate on my part with the $30 per game figure. I fully expect the games to be closer to $50-60. That was my point: even at the "cheap price" for games (around $30), most younger gamers with not much disposeable income will have to make choices. Hike that price up to $50 per game or even $60 in some cases, and you've got a MAJOR outlay of cash confined within a one-month period.

That's why I think that JA will be swamped by the competition initially, but will get decent reviews and still have its built-in fan base going for it after it's been out for a while. As for the Star Wars fans buying it in droves, I just don't see it initially. Bear in mind, that Star Wars fans ALSO are HL2/Doom3/Halo/whatever fans, so they still have to choose between games. Some folks may not want to get Doom3, and Doom3 may end up being pretty, suspenseful, but ultimately kinda boring (Go into room, kill zombies, find level exit, rinse, repeat, kill big boss at end of game, watch silly cinematic. YAWN).

HL2 will likely have a similar style of gameplay, if it's anything like the first one, where you'll have to solve some sort of "mystery" about what the hell is going on or how your gov't agency works or something, but its story will continue via visuals more than via actual exposition. (IE: you realize the government is coming after you again because guys in gas masks are shooting at you.) The story may be a good deal better than Doom3, though. Halo, well, I don't think Halo will sell all that well. A lot of PC gamers are also X-box gamers and they probably already have Halo. If all it is is a straight port, then why buy it? Sure it'll be cool, but it'll still be a console port of an already established title. So I don't see Halo as a real threat.

I haven't even heard about the Judge Dredd game or some of the others that have been mentioned in this thread, but there is PLENTY of competition. I think we may end up seeing a little market saturation this year during the fall quarter, unless the studios delay the release of their games such that they don't all overlap within 2 weeks of each other.

I mean, imagine what would happen to initial box office sales if the following movies all came out within a 3 day period: The Hulk, Terminator 3, Legally Blonde 2, Charlie's Angels 2, Pirates of the Caribbean, The Matrix Reloaded, and X-men 2. People would initially have to choose between a LOT of MAJOR titles, and ALL of them would end up losing on initial sales. Now hike the price of entry up considerably, but spread the time of release out to a month, and you're looking at the game market for the fall quarter 2003. Now, the main difference is that it's not as big a deal if there aren't major initial sales for a game as it is for movies, as long as the game continues to sell well, but I think that the fall of 2003 is going to be a pretty important one in the history of gaming when looking at market trends and how to go about game development and marketing strategies.

Personally, if I were the guys at Raven, I'd actually hold off on releasing the game, put out a nice hefty demo with SP and MP, let folks play it and respond, take into account suggestions (and throw out plenty of other suggestions), and then release the game just before X-mas.

Originally posted by Solo4114
That was my point: even at the "cheap price" for games (around $30), most younger gamers with not much disposeable income will have to make choices.

Very true ... and that has implications down the road. Say you hold off buying a game for economic reasons, deciding to wait until the spring. Depending on the reviews, and what else comes along, you might never get it - despite the intent and money to do so. All because of a crowded rerlease schedule.

That's why I think that JA will be swamped by the competition initially,

All depends on the release schedule - you say these games all fall in a month? I say it is more like the last 120 days of the year. From Halo 2nd of Sept to Doom 3 in December (I don't believe it will hit 2nd Oct as IGN has listed). Only October is open, but as I said I have a feeling HL2 will take a small slip. November is also pretty open until Deus Ex 2. Mid September is a tough time unless HL2 slips.

HL2 will likely have a similar style of gameplay, if it's anything like the first one ... I don't see Halo as a real threat.

I somewhat agree. I think HL2 will feature more action than Doom 3 based on what I've seen, but be less 'beautiful'. As it is, take your eyes off the physics and facial animations in the 'new' HL2 videos and you'll see the G-Man is very blocky, and that the girl with the amazing face looks like she has Kyle's hands from Doom_Comm ;)

As for Halo - what you say is true, but the game has sold so many XBox copies it is bound to do well by hype alone. Maybe not enough to cause real problems for the other games, but it will be a distraction (can you see the ads - 'The Best and Tope Selling XBox Game EVER is Now Available on the PC!!!")

I haven't even heard about ...or some of the others that have been mentioned in this thread, but there is PLENTY of competition. I think we may end up seeing a little market saturation this year during the fall quarter

Very much agree. I was looking forward to more ... like Mace Griffin as Stormhammer mentioned. However, the 70-ish XBox and 65-ish PS2 reviews for the game make me think ... maybe not. Nonetheless, the PC FPS landscape is very crowded, and that doesn't count all of the other genres (like RPG) and platforms (Halo 2?) ... lots of competition for advertising space.

I think that the fall of 2003 is going to be a pretty important one in the history of gaming when looking at market trends and how to go about game development and marketing strategies.

Perhaps it will go down as when the industry realized it had to stage the release of these games, rather than just targeting a date blindly. It is true that - unlike movies - games have a long time to prove themselves. But when I was a kid movies stayed in the theater for MONTHS ... you could have seen Empire (sorry ... TESB) 12 times during the first run and not even gone once a week! Game launches are becoming more major as time goes on and the industry gets bigger, more crowded in terms of games and platforms, and that trend will likely only get worse.

Personally, if I were the guys at Raven, I'd actually hold off on releasing the game, put out a nice hefty demo with SP and MP, let folks play it and respond, take into account suggestions (and throw out plenty of other suggestions), and then release the game just before X-mas.

Personally I think that it is a tough calc. I also think that a demo - regardless how much WE want one - is a tough call. We look back at games we love and recall the great demos (like JK & MotS) and even love the JO demo and think it should have come out first. But Devastation and Breed's demos guaranteed I'd never buy those games ... and if I had waited for the Unreal II demo I'd be $50 richer now. Even Elite Force II, which I know I'll eventually pick up ... the demo was nice, but left me with the 80% feel that all of the reviews are getting ...

Thing is - Star Wars is a rather well known quantity, and the JK series is one of the most successful series in gaming history, from both financial and critical perspective. What is the purpose a demo will serve? Get the name out? No need.

Mike

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
...If JA does release around about that time LA should expect quite a fall in sales compared to jk2 did at launch unless magazines love the game quite a good bit more than jk2 (90-93.5ish it got) and decide to slap it right onto the front cover INSTEAD of HL2/halo. It's ashame that if they go for the early date the game will most likely get trodded on by HL2 even if it's deserving to be bought by alot more people. Most people don't buy 2 games on the one day :p

BUT they do have a preinstalled fanbase, this is sure to get it quite a good few sales- Star wars + people who liked jk2 or even jk1/mots + word of mouth (depends how good the game is, i'm assuming it will be better than JO) + Advertising + reviews. Looking at it like that, it does actually have quite a good chance will most likely get alot more people playing mp than there is JO because i'm hoping there won't be any patches released :)

I'm sorta glad that it might not get as many sales at first, so I can buy it when it comes out, and not have to go to the store every day to see if they had one, like I did with JO. But I am seriously douting it will be a total flop in sales because as some of you have said before, the fan base. I JUST WANT IT TO COME OUT, IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK!!!I JUST WANT IT TO COME OUT, IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK!!! :swear:

Originally posted by txa1265
Very true ... and that has implications down the road. Say you hold off buying a game for economic reasons, deciding to wait until the spring. Depending on the reviews, and what else comes along, you might never get it - despite the intent and money to do so. All because of a crowded rerlease schedule.

Very true. Putting off the purchase of a game may go on ad infinitum if the next Bigger BETTER game comes out in successive months. And again, as we've both stated, that doesn't even take into account other gaming arenas like the consoles and other genres.



All depends on the release schedule - you say these games all fall in a month? I say it is more like the last 120 days of the year. From Halo 2nd of Sept to Doom 3 in December (I don't believe it will hit 2nd Oct as IGN has listed). Only October is open, but as I said I have a feeling HL2 will take a small slip. November is also pretty open until Deus Ex 2. Mid September is a tough time unless HL2 slips.

Well, I don't know the hard or even really the soft release dates yet, but I do think that there's going to be a lot of competition towards the end of 2003 and start of 2004.


I somewhat agree. I think HL2 will feature more action than Doom 3 based on what I've seen, but be less 'beautiful'. As it is, take your eyes off the physics and facial animations in the 'new' HL2 videos and you'll see the G-Man is very blocky, and that the girl with the amazing face looks like she has Kyle's hands from Doom_Comm ;)

That wouldn't surprise me. I haven't seen the HL2 stuff yet, aside from the occasional graphic of the G-man, but I was never terribly impressed by HL1's graphics even when it first came out, despite how people raved about them. That and the "real skeletal system" or whatever always seemed like so much hype to me. The game was good, but I always thought that it got a bit more hype than it deserved, at least graphics and animation wise. That said, the gameplay that was there WAS pretty cool, and the game was REALLY long. I just replayed it recently and as compared to JO, HL1 takes on epic proportions. JO had about average game length to it, but HL1's single player went on forever it seemed. That could also be because there were no real "levels" per se, just the occasional "chapter" and a whole lot of smaller areas connected to each other. Anyway, I'm betting HL2 will deliver better gameplay overall, while Doom3 will look AMAZING, have some cool set-pieces and encounters, but will on the whole be kind of boring once the initial eye candy wears off. Like I said, I just replayed HL1 and enjoyed the gameplay still. I haven't played any of the Id games in ages, aside from occasionally firing up Wolf3D. :)

As for Halo - what you say is true, but the game has sold so many XBox copies it is bound to do well by hype alone. Maybe not enough to cause real problems for the other games, but it will be a distraction (can you see the ads - 'The Best and Tope Selling XBox Game EVER is Now Available on the PC!!!")

But that's my point: the game has sold a ton of X-box copies and it will likely play better on an X-box than on a PC. Plus, a LOT of X-box owners are PC owners too, and chances are, if you own an X-box, you own Halo. I mean, it's been their flagship title so far. It's the game that MADE X-box in a sense. I played it on my friend's X-box and I have to admit, it WAS pretty damn cool, especially to play in co-op mode. There are definite improvements that will come about as a result of porting to the PC (IE: no split screen BS, an actual keyboard & mouse combo for precision control -- assuming the game actually lets you implement this, etc.), but not enough that I think people who already own it will buy it again. If I'm Microsoft or Bungie (same diff nowadays) and I release Halo to the PC, I'm not going to put a whole lot into marketing it. I'll trust that word of mouth and the name of the game alone will sell the game to the people who don't have an X-box, and that'll be that. It'll increase my revenues, but not in any major way. In short, I'll pimp it a little, and expect some decent return, but not enough to consider it a blockbuster title.

Perhaps it will go down as when the industry realized it had to stage the release of these games, rather than just targeting a date blindly. It is true that - unlike movies - games have a long time to prove themselves. But when I was a kid movies stayed in the theater for MONTHS ... you could have seen Empire (sorry ... TESB) 12 times during the first run and not even gone once a week! Game launches are becoming more major as time goes on and the industry gets bigger, more crowded in terms of games and platforms, and that trend will likely only get worse.

I could see this happening really easily. Given the potential for market saturation, and the worries about people buying a game after it's been out for a while, when competition from newer games is high and when the game's price has been lowered, the initial "opening weekend" for games seems like it'd be pretty damn important. Now, if you're an 800lb gorilla of a game like HL2 or Doom3 (or any of the Quake games), you don't have any worries. If you're a game like JA, though, you're more like a 350lb gorilla. :) You've got a good following, a built-in fan base, but you're not offering anything revolutionary like those other two games out there. With these kinds of considerations, you almost want to try and plan your release around the major blockbuster games so as to maybe introduce yours after an initial lull in the blockbuster's appeal (IE: maybe two months after it's been out). Who knows. Regardless, with a couple of major big-league titles coming out at once, I think the gaming industry will need to reevaluate its marketing and release strategies for coming years after we see what happens this year.

...I also think that a demo - regardless how much WE want one - is a tough call. We look back at games we love and recall the great demos (like JK & MotS) and even love the JO demo and think it should have come out first. But Devastation and Breed's demos guaranteed I'd never buy those games ... and if I had waited for the Unreal II demo I'd be $50 richer now. Even Elite Force II, which I know I'll eventually pick up ... the demo was nice, but left me with the 80% feel that all of the reviews are getting ...

That's true, and that's a risk you take with a demo, but it also gives you the opportunity to have a free public beta test. And that's the REAL reason I want the demo. I want to be able to diagnose as many problems ahead of the game's actual release as possible, so that things can be fixed on the front end, rather than through a series of game-altering patches. BF1942 is an example of a game that actually made some good changes after its demo, but also continues to alter how the game operates (aside from bugs). As a result, each time they "rebalance" things, new problems show up. IE: planes are too strong, so we rebalance the machineguns on vehicles to be stronger and able to take the planes down. This makes the MGs too powerful, and planes are too weak. So, we rebalance again, dumb down the MGs, make the planes a little tougher, and also introduce a few small arms. Unfortunately, while the planes are better balanced against MGs now, the small arms are becoming a problem on the battlefield because THEY'RE not entirely balanced (or so some folks say). Now, not all the changes that have been made have been bad, and not all of the things that people think are bad really are a whole lot of a problem, but it creates issues when you keep releasing patches that alter gameplay in a significant way. Even seemingly subtle changes can have a profound impact on gameplay. That's why I want a demo. I want as much of this crap cleared up as possible so that people will be satisfied with MP action a few months after it's been out and won't barrage Raven with requests to make the guns weaker or stronger, make the sabre more or less lethal, etc., etc. I'd like Raven to be able to put out a game that is fun right out of the box, that holds true to the films for the most part, and that only requires minor bug fixes, as opposed to major changes that weren't thoroughly tested. To me, that's the purpose of a demo, not to advertise the game or increase name recognition.

Warning: Force Long Post!!

Originally posted by txa1265
As am I ... there was a line in a movie some years ago that someone said about 'I'm older and I have more disposable income' ... I think that applies to us

Yeah. Age and a steady income sometimes has it’s advantages. :D

Demos have been a mixed bag this year - and although I can spare the cash I felt 'burned' by my quick-buy on Unreal 2 and have been gun-shy (pun intended!) since. I've not yet picked up Elite Force II ... may wait for the Mac version, but I have to swing by the mall tomorrow anyway, and I always hear EB calling me when I go in the mall ...

I know how you feel about Unreal 2. I’ve been a lot more wary since then, and I’ve made an extra effort to play game demos before making a purchasing decision. Having said that, it’s mostly been in relation to ‘untested’ titles from less known developers, rather than those for which I already had some confidence.

Originally posted by HertogJan

Don't you guys think that JA doesn't have THAT much to fear from those other games?? I mean, because it's a SW game, it appeals to different people anyway, apart from the main group of gamers. Because it's SW, people will buy it anyway.

You might have a point, but personally I may be a Star Wars fan, but when it comes to games, I’m a gamer first, and a Star Wars fan second. The game has to be solid and engaging, with a mix of the right ingredients, whether it’s a Star Wars title or not. ;) I don’t simply get a Star Wars game because it’s a Star Wars game. As I stated above…I’ll be looking at many other titles this Autumn/Winter period, and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. I’m just very confident that I’ll like JA based on JO, and based on Raven’s track record. I have played, and enjoyed, many of their games – the only slight disappointment being SOF2, which is let down by a few elements that if fixed would improve the gameplay.


Originally posted by yolkboy

Anyways, I personally haven't played Halo on the XBOX. So I might actually go for that on the PC. I also heard that there are going to be more driveable vehicles? in Halo PC. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by txa1265

I see Halo, HL2 and Doom3 as very different within the same genre. Halo on the XBox looked to me (I saw all of 5 minutes of someone playing) like your typical Q3 / UT run and gun game, but with really cool vehicles to drive and supposedly good flow and play. That is why I may pass that up - the Breed demo looked like that, and I found that quite boring.

I haven’t played Halo either – mostly because I don’t have an X-Box. :p However, from what I’ve been reading, the only additions to Halo (PC) are two new useable weapons, and the existing SP vehicles will make their way into the MP modes. The major addition for the PC version is in MP, because they’ve apparently stuck like glue to the SP content except for those two weapons. So if you’ve played Halo on the X-Box, there’s no real reason to get it on PC unless you’re absolutely desperate for higher resolutions and MP combat. As I’ve never played the game, it’s on my list, but if Mike’s right regarding it’s similarity to what I experienced in the Breed demo, then I may ultimately give it a miss. I also found the Breed demo to be a bit boring, but I think that developer may be taking feedback on board, because they’ve delayed the game’s release yet again to tweak and polish it. I hope they release another demo so that I can still try it before making a final decision.

HL2 looks very nice - I expect heavy story with lots of action - not action as heavy as the games of today, but still lots of action, but again the emphasis on storyline. Doom3 looks like very little action, mainly suspense and mood. Carmack already said you'll only ever battle 1 or 2 enemies at a time.

Originally posted by HertogJan

Oh and of course there are differences between Doom3 and HL2 and Halo, but the thing is, that people will usually buy 2 pretty different game at a time. Maybe they'll get Doom3 AND HL2, but they'll buy one of those two later.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with Mike there. As for buying games with a different feel at the same time, you may be right HertogJan, but I can’t say that’s the way I do it. I usually just get the games I want the most on release. I actually have a database of upcoming games in which I have an interest, and I mark in bold those I want more than any of the others, and they become my primary hit list. I try to get those games immediately on release. My secondary hit list comprises games I’m interested in, but I may leave them for a few months before getting them – and some I wait long enough for them to become budget titles.

One of the good things, actually, about many of the titles that are due for release is that they will be offering different gameplay elements and experiences. Although many of the titles on my wish list are FPS games, their game dynamics are not simply going to be carbon copies of each other (which would ultimately become tedious).

I agree that Half-Life 2 will probably build on a similar gameplay style to it’s predecessor, with strong story and a mix of action and puzzle solving elements.

I may be under a misconception, but I still expect Doom 3 to be a straightforward, slower-paced linear gore-fest with a cliched plot, simple ‘find and press the button’ puzzles and the obligatory ‘big boss in a locked room with lots of health and ammo’ finale. Much like most of Id’s games. That’s not to say it won’t be enjoyable if they can ramp up the atmosphere within the game.

As for other games…

Judge Dredd will require you to enforce the law, not simply kill everyone (if you do that, you’ll end up getting Judged yourself), so you are basically enforcing the laws of Mega City One. Incidentally, there should be a considerable number of NPCs on screen at the same time, which is another step in the right direction, on top of it’s graphic novel style visuals.

Far Cry should hopefully deliver a more dynamic experience due to great AI in a tropical setting (along with vehicles), so most encounters should have more variety and thereby get away from the linear feel of enemies who fight you the same way every time on the same spot.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. will be a darker action/RPG hybrid with a less linear approach to gameplay, and a great deal more freedom to explore the environment, and make conscious choices that will have an impact on how in-game characters react to you.

Deus Ex 2 will build on the key elements that made it’s predecessor great, allowing for a mix of stealth and action in tandem with strong RPG elements backed up by a strong story. The greater emphasis on stealth should mean you can actually complete the game without killing anyone, which is one of the unique elements about games coming from this particular developer (many of the team have a history with the Thief series, after all, and Thief 3 will offer this same kind of play style).

XIII will offer cel-shaded stealth and action against a conspiracy background (with hopefully excellent voice acting, considering Adam West and David Duchovny have been signed up), and with some interesting elements like ‘visual’ sound cues.

Mace Griffin has been getting average scores for it’s console incarnations, but I’m still very interested in it because it will be mixing on-the-foot shooting with space-based fighter combat, and seamless transitions between. In those terms, it is really bringing something new to the table, and I’m confident the gameplay will be solid, if not necessarily spectacular.

Jedi Academy will be bringing some new elements to the table within it’s genre as well, in terms of it’s tiered mission option selection (which has to be applauded), and SP character customisation while not being an RPG. Very few modern FPS games offer these kinds of choices.

Tron 2.0 will probably be a more traditional style game, with light RPG elements, but it does of course have a unique visual impact, and obviously appeals to fans of the original movie (like me).

Knights Of The Old Republic is a different kettle of fish, because it’s a full-blown RPG in the Star Wars universe, and in some ways it’s a landmark game in spite of the release of SW Galaxies, because it explores a different epoch, and allows a firm grounding for any further games set in that period.

Max Payne 2 is also due for release later this year, and promises more 3rd person bullet-time antics from a revamped and revitalised hard-hitting cop. The first game was quite a success, and so there is obviously a fan base waiting for the next incarnation of the movie-styled hero. Personally, I’ll sit and wait for it to come down in price, like I did the first one, because I expect the same kind of heavily linear, heavily scripted story.

So the variety is definitely there…and some games will appeal more to some people than others, which is always the case. * starts counting pennies to see if my bank balance will cope with that lot * :p

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator

One thing i noticed last year, was the fancy posters in the EB on the windows advertising JK2. I'm almost positive it trolled in an awful lot of buyers (i was buying it anyway ). Seeing as HL2, D3 and Halo are 'supposed' to come out then, they'll probably get all the publicity and fame even if they are crap. If JA does release around about that time LA should expect quite a fall in sales compared to jk2 did at launch unless magazines love the game quite a good bit more than jk2 (90-93.5ish it got) and decide to slap it right onto the front cover INSTEAD of HL2/halo. It's ashame that if they go for the early date the game will most likely get trodded on by HL2 even if it's deserving to be bought by alot more people. Most people don't buy 2 games on the one day

Yes, that is going to be one of the major problems for a game like JA. The hype machine is in full swing for a few titles that are expected (either rightly or wrongly) to redefine the parameters of the genre, and I too expect the windows of every game retail store (and PC game magazine covers) trumpeting the arrival of these hotly anticipated titles. That’s not to say that gamers won’t buy something completely different (if they are more discerning or genre-specific), but it certainly plants the seed in the mind of the average gamer to get the most fashionable (and ultimately hyped) game. However, as I said before, I think the Jedi series is strong enough that sales will be steady, if not immediate, and hopefully assure investment in further future titles along a similar vein.


Originally posted by Solo4114

That was my point: even at the "cheap price" for games (around $30), most younger gamers with not much disposeable income will have to make choices. Hike that price up to $50 per game or even $60 in some cases, and you've got a MAJOR outlay of cash confined within a one-month period.

Well, while what you say is true, I’m sure I read somewhere that the average PC gamer is not as young as you might believe. Due to the maturity of the platform, there are a great many more PC gamers in their mid 20’s and above (with arguably more disposable income) than the younger generation. The percentage of PC gamers over the age of 30 is constantly growing, and becoming more a dominant marketing factor. Also, although I agree with your point, I’d argue that some of the games due for release will be for an older audience anyway – which puts some younger gamers totally out of the picture to begin with. Younger gamers (by that I mean early teens) are (usually) reliant on their parents for disposable income, I agree, so their choices are often limited. I’d be surprised, however, if Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 didn’t get mature ratings on release, which starts to narrow down the choices for the younger audience. In many ways, the ‘safe bet’ from a parents point of view, would arguably be a Star Wars game with a teen rating attached, because almost everyone has seen the movies, and would probably base expected game content off that. Which is probably one of the reasons (read smart move) that Lucasarts always tries to make games with a teen rating, so they have a slightly wider target market. While many adults might opt for the HL2 and D3 type games, teens may actually be ‘stuck’ with games like Jedi Academy. :D Of course, the older gamers who are Star Wars fans will also look at JA on release, or shortly after.

I think we may end up seeing a little market saturation this year during the fall quarter, unless the studios delay the release of their games such that they don't all overlap within 2 weeks of each other.

I think it’s unlikely that the publishers (not the game developers) will stagger game releases to try and make certain games more appealing. I think they are probably savvy enough to realise that people who are most likely to buy HL2 and Doom 3 are probably going to wait for those games and get them no matter what. And yes, sales of other titles will probably initially not do as well, and more obscure titles will inevitably get pushed to the bottom of the pile and go unnoticed by all but the most discerning gamers who have a better understanding of the industry as a whole, and realise that supporting the smaller developers to bring something new and fresh to market is to be applauded and supported with ready cash. ;) After all, the more developers on the ground, the greater the choice…which leads us straight back to the situation we’re currently facing in the last quarters of this year. I hope the smaller developers don’t feel the squeeze too much, and manage to weather the storm and have successful (if not blindingly brilliant) sales. Without them, those game choices would become limited. I guess it’s a bit of Catch 22 for the industry – the small developers need good sales to be competitive while expanding our gaming choices, but a few ultra-hyped games can still serve to limit sales if released at the same time.

Personally, if I were the guys at Raven, I'd actually hold off on releasing the game, put out a nice hefty demo with SP and MP, let folks play it and respond, take into account suggestions (and throw out plenty of other suggestions), and then release the game just before X-mas.

An interesting notion, and in the current gaming climate (with some recently released titles that have been sub-standard), I’d have to applaud any move that puts impetus back into game developers releasing solid and engaging games. When you consider that quite a few ‘classic’ and genre-redefining games were released between 1997-2000, and have managed to stand the test of time (albeit a short span of real time, but almost an ‘era’ in gaming terms these days), it’s a shame and a bit disheartening that attitudes have changed so much and the most recent crop hasn’t had the same kind of impact and will probably not have such long-lasting appeal. There are one or two exceptions, and of course by the end of the year we will probably see a few more ‘classics’ emerge that will provide gaming pleasure for years to come. If anything, we’re about to be deluged after a drought, and only the sturdiest (polished and exceptional) games will manage to weather the storm.



Originally posted by txa1265

Very true ... and that has implications down the road. Say you hold off buying a game for economic reasons, deciding to wait until the spring. Depending on the reviews, and what else comes along, you might never get it - despite the intent and money to do so. All because of a crowded rerlease schedule.

I can actually identify with that. For one reason or another, it was actually about 18 months after it’s initial release that I picked up Deus Ex. Playing the demo actually put me off the game (it ran poorly on my computer at the time), and it was only after I’d upgraded, and I’d read so many glowing gamer’s comments about it that I eventually decided to get it. I bought it on a budget release. And as I played it I realised it was a great game. The same thing happened with ‘Alice’, which I only picked up just over a week ago, and had to physically hunt down to find a copy (because it’s no longer available at retail in the UK). I still have quite a few titles in my database that I haven’t got yet – including Medal Of Honor: Allied Assault, which was obviously released before Jedi Outcast. I’m currently waiting for the ‘Gold’ edition, complete with the expansion. I mention MOHAA because it’s a nice comparison to some other titles. It has managed to retain it’s original price point since release, which compares with some other games that by now have become budget releases…or have simply vanished from retail altogether.

It’s hard to define which games will be an on-going success on release – but if you monitor the situation, and gauge it carefully, you know that some titles are still going to be available a year down the line, so there is no real rush to get them on the date of release. In some respects, it’s a more canny way of satisfying your gaming needs – leave some titles until they become budget releases (the games I mentioned above that are on my ‘secondary’ list), and get a few of the titles on your primary list on the day of release. If you don’t have enough cash at the time, but you suspect a particular title will remain strong in the market-place, then it’s easy enough to opt to get that game at a later date. Usually, these stronger titles do not go down in price anyway, so you’re not hurting the developer/publisher by waiting.

All depends on the release schedule - you say these games all fall in a month? I say it is more like the last 120 days of the year. From Halo 2nd of Sept to Doom 3 in December (I don't believe it will hit 2nd Oct as IGN has listed). Only October is open, but as I said I have a feeling HL2 will take a small slip. November is also pretty open until Deus Ex 2. Mid September is a tough time unless HL2 slips.

Yeah, you’re right. Although it does seem like a lot of games are coming out ‘at the same time’, there are gaps between them. Not very large gaps, in some cases, but still gaps. Some of the games I mentioned will be released in August, and others probably as late as December. Having said that, though, there must still be a conscious purchasing decision made by a large section of gamers with less disposable income, which is understandable. Not everyone buys a game a month, let alone two or three, so sales will definitely be impacted if there is even a small cluster of games released, say, within two weeks of each other. As I said above, I certainly hope some of the less familiar titles (nicely pointed out by Solo4114 in his earlier post), don’t get totally overlooked. I’d hate to see a game go the same way as ‘Clive Barker’s Undying’, which is a very good game, and got very good reviews from most of the PC gaming magazines, but never sold all that well. Thankfully, I managed to pick up a copy – and I think it may still be available on budget – but the team behind it was disbanded and went on to pastures new.


As for Halo - what you say is true, but the game has sold so many XBox copies it is bound to do well by hype alone. Maybe not enough to cause real problems for the other games, but it will be a distraction (can you see the ads - 'The Best and Tope Selling XBox Game EVER is Now Available on the PC!!!")

Yes, unfortunately I can see the hype machine starting to build up along those lines. I honestly can’t see Halo (PC) doing as well as Halo (X-Box) though. If Solo is right, a lot of gamers will have played it already, and only the die-hards (like me) will have been patient enough to wait for it’s release on PC.


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I think that the fall of 2003 is going to be a pretty important one in the history of gaming when looking at market trends and how to go about game development and marketing strategies.
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Perhaps it will go down as when the industry realized it had to stage the release of these games, rather than just targeting a date blindly. It is true that - unlike movies - games have a long time to prove themselves. But when I was a kid movies stayed in the theater for MONTHS ... you could have seen Empire (sorry ... TESB) 12 times during the first run and not even gone once a week! Game launches are becoming more major as time goes on and the industry gets bigger, more crowded in terms of games and platforms, and that trend will likely only get worse.

Again, I agree. ;) However, I think the ones who get hurt most in this situation is the developer, and not necessarily the publisher. A publisher can be pushing their ‘AAA’ title alongside some of the other less known titles, and know they are going to be financially secure for that period because of the key title. I suspect that with much less familiar titles, their sales don’t really factor into the big picture…but become more of the ‘icing on the cake’. Unfortunately that doesn’t help the developer, particularly if they are small, but the publisher is free to milk a game’s sales in the longer term, while the developer might hit a brick wall and go bankrupt. Such is the nature of the industry, so I don’t think staggered releases are a very great consideration for the larger publishers. I’m not saying they are uncaring of the developers’ plight (though some may be), and they probably do some analysis of which titles will sell like hot cakes, and which will have slow but steady sales. As I said before, I think JA will probably fall into the latter category, and for a developer/publisher like Lucasarts, they probably have more of a long-term view anyway, because they are quite large, and developing several titles simultaneously.


Thing is - Star Wars is a rather well known quantity, and the JK series is one of the most successful series in gaming history, from both financial and critical perspective. What is the purpose a demo will serve? Get the name out? No need.

I agree with that sentiment as well. A demo would be nice, but with this franchise it’s not really essential to assure sales. If anything, as you point out, it might serve to reduce sales, which is not a smart economical move. I think Raven are very much aware of the perceived problems associated with Jedi Outcast, and have already assured us in interviews that they have taken gamer feedback on board. The feature-set for Jedi Academy alone tells me that they want to keep the franchise fresh and entertaining, while remaining faithful to the other games in the series, and deliver a polished and solid gameplay experience. Of course, that is the aim of most good developers, but in recent times some seem to have lost sight of the big picture, and not been able to predict a sea change in gamer preferences. Fortunately, Raven is one developer that does keep more in touch with it’s audience, and usually delivers solid (and sometimes innovative) gameplay experiences.

Originally posted by Solo4114

That said, the gameplay that was there WAS pretty cool, and the game was REALLY long. I just replayed it recently and as compared to JO, HL1 takes on epic proportions. JO had about average game length to it, but HL1's single player went on forever it seemed. That could also be because there were no real "levels" per se, just the occasional "chapter" and a whole lot of smaller areas connected to each other.

Actually, I think the era of the ‘longer’ games has come and gone. The emphasis, indeed the focus, of many game developers is now on more concise and ‘quality’ gameplay experiences. I can understand this from the viewpoint that you want gamers to enjoy your game…and actually finish it. Apparently, this was a perceived problem with the likes of Half-Life, Deus Ex, Unreal and a few others. Personally, I liked the length of all of those games, but I guess I have more gaming ‘stamina’ than some, who utterly failed to complete the SP campaigns. Unfortunately, this trend will probably continue, and I think many developers are increasingly viewing a ’10 hour experience’ as a sweet-spot, and something to aim for. That’s a shame, IMHO. I prefer an SP campaign (for an FPS) to last at least 25 hours on a ‘medium’ difficulty setting, and a bit longer on the ‘hard’ difficulty setting. Also, I think the ‘Hard’ setting doesn’t simply have to be about increasing the damage of each shot as it hits you, or decreasing your health or disabling some other ability. I actually prefer some of the old-style ‘Hard’ settings in games, where you might pick up a better weapon later on, rather than earlier, and face a few more enemies, who might be ‘smarter’ rather than simply tougher. This can become far more enjoyable, and prevents ‘game-load syndrome’ from occurring when you die 10 times more often than usual. I’m encouraged to see the likes of Raven still producing games that will offer more than 20 hours of gameplay, but then, I think they again learned from the feedback they had regarding Elite Force, which was quite short.

That's true, and that's a risk you take with a demo, but it also gives you the opportunity to have a free public beta test. And that's the REAL reason I want the demo. I want to be able to diagnose as many problems ahead of the game's actual release as possible, so that things can be fixed on the front end, rather than through a series of game-altering patches. BF1942 is an example of a game that actually made some good changes after its demo, but also continues to alter how the game operates (aside from bugs). As a result, each time they "rebalance" things, new problems show up. IE: planes are too strong, so we rebalance the machineguns on vehicles to be stronger and able to take the planes down. This makes the MGs too powerful, and planes are too weak. So, we rebalance again, dumb down the MGs, make the planes a little tougher, and also introduce a few small arms. Unfortunately, while the planes are better balanced against MGs now, the small arms are becoming a problem on the battlefield because THEY'RE not entirely balanced (or so some folks say). Now, not all the changes that have been made have been bad, and not all of the things that people think are bad really are a whole lot of a problem, but it creates issues when you keep releasing patches that alter gameplay in a significant way. Even seemingly subtle changes can have a profound impact on gameplay. That's why I want a demo. I want as much of this crap cleared up as possible so that people will be satisfied with MP action a few months after it's been out and won't barrage Raven with requests to make the guns weaker or stronger, make the sabre more or less lethal, etc., etc. I'd like Raven to be able to put out a game that is fun right out of the box, that holds true to the films for the most part, and that only requires minor bug fixes, as opposed to major changes that weren't thoroughly tested. To me, that's the purpose of a demo, not to advertise the game or increase name recognition.

Hmmm…I’m not entirely sure a demo as a beta test or something would be as beneficial as you seem to feel. I can certainly see your point, and I totally agree that a game should be as balanced and polished as possible out of the box. However, a good solid in-house beta test could suit just as well, if it is long enough, and thorough enough. The problem, it seems to me, is that the entire gaming industry now views games releases as some kind of race, and games have to be pushed out the door according to the deadlines written down in the original agreement between developer and publisher. I can understand it to an extent, because everyone has to make money, and you can’t simply write a blank cheque every time development hits a snag. I have to applaud the likes of Valve, Id and even 3Drealms, for sticking to their guns, and taking as long as they please to get their titles right for release. Of course, the major thing in the favour of all of these developers is that they have a pool of cash to draw on. Many developers don’t have that kind of luxury, and so find themselves hurried along by the publishers (those with the money bags who must be obeyed) to get the product out of the door.

So I definitely agree that there should be a great deal more time and effort spent on bug-fixing, and game balancing, and adding the final spit and polish before a game ‘goes gold’ and hits the retailer’s shelves. However, a public beta/demo can have as many drawbacks as benefits, in my view. You can still get the kind of situation we saw with the patches and Jedi Outcast…except it would be a less ‘visible’ process. You’d have X gamer saying the balance of weapon Y is wrong, and Z gamer saying no, that’s okay, it’s feature B that needs tweaking. The point I’m making is that every gamer has slightly different tastes, and preferences, and obviously any feedback is coloured by those preferences. At the end of the day, the developer has the raw vision and driving passion to make a game a certain way, and hopefully in a way that the majority of the target audience will find enjoyable. However, as forums like these have shown…you will never please everyone, and every gamer will find something not to their liking – but invariably not the ‘same’ thing. If 90% of people come back to you and say ‘feature X sucked’, then obviously that needs to be addressed, but if you’re getting minorities focusing on lots of different aspects they don’t like, then maybe in a way that’s an indication the game is approaching the right balance, and maybe it’s better to simply stop fiddling around with all the fine tweaking and let the game out the door.

Well…that’s my view. ;)

Several good posts here. I do know that LA has already delayed release of games such as KOTOR (they changed the development schedule) so they aren't release with games that are seen as direct competitors - such as SW Galaxies - and I've heard of other games being released at different times because of possible competition. And as you said StormHammer it usually the developer who takes it on the chin and not the publisher, which is too bad.

I don't really see a sweet spot for JA's release this year - unless they push it to August or something. In fact this entire year has been really sucky - particularly in the FPS genre - so it's a pity they didn't try and schedule an earlier release if the dev time would have permitted it. Maybe if they can keep the price down from the other games or something it will be a big second selection for the fall. My guess is it will be an also ran - a great game amongst other great games - but not new enough to garner panting tongues.

Of course - HL2 and D3 could have a rough time like Unreal2 did. They might fall flat - in the beautiful but not so much fun category, which would leave JA an opening. I think people are looking for more than the shoot'em up FPSs these days. You have to offer something else - realism (tactical shooters), tense atmosphere (horror) - intrigue - or RPG elements to really capture people. A decent story has to be attached to what's going on. HL2 will probably make the mark, but I wonder about D3 once the blood looses its novelty.

I can't believe I actually read every word in this thread.

Solo
Not to demean JO, but there's nothing revolutionary about its gameplay or graphics. It will be (hopefully) a solid, fun game with a well-sized built-in fan base, but it will come nowhere close to the hype-machines that are HL2 and Doom3. And those are just the FPS games coming out around that time. We're not even talking about cross-genre competition from sources like KOTOR or whatever Morrowind/Everquest/Galaxies expansion comes out in that time.

I'm sure JA will do fine in the long run, but it will not be a blockbuster by any stretch of the imagination. Its fan base is not quite big enough, and it faces stiff competition from what one would expect to be pretty heavy hitters in terms of taking games to the next level.

The thing that strikes me the strangest about the pending fall releases is that we can no longer count on LEC FPSes to take things "to the next level." DF and JK both had features that didn't just say, "this is how we are different," they screamed "you'd better recognize this if you are in the industry." DF was the first fps ever to allow multi-floored levels (one on top of the other) and JK had the largest outdoor landscapes ever and multiple endings (although I'm not 100% sure they did it first in an FPS).

JO didn't lead the industry in anything of the sorts... JA has a thing or two going for it, in theory, but even still no one is looking to the next LEC FPS for anything groudbreaking. This wasn't always so and that is what disappoints me the most.

Stormhammer
Jedi Academy will be bringing some new elements to the table within it’s genre as well, in terms of it’s tiered mission option selection (which has to be applauded), and SP character customisation while not being an RPG. Very few modern FPS games offer these kinds of choices.

Your last sentence may sound good enough for you but it isn't for me. Both DF and JK did major things that no other FPSes had done, not just a select few. That is the disappointing difference.

Life is too short to play majorally rehashed game mechanics dictated in part by large corporations whose only motivation is to make as much money as possible.

Sigh... :(

Originally posted by Sargasso
I can't believe I actually read every word in this thread.

... the Force (Force Long Post, that is) is with us on this thread ;)

The thing that strikes me the strangest about the pending fall releases is that we can no longer count on LEC FPSes to take things "to the next level." DF and JK both had features that didn't just say, "this is how we are different," they screamed "you'd better recognize this if you are in the industry." DF was the first fps ever to allow multi-floored levels (one on top of the other) and JK had the largest outdoor landscapes ever and multiple endings (although I'm not 100% sure they did it first in an FPS).

Now hold on ... before I go and get my DF and JK CD's bronzed and framed and blessed by my priest, let's put some of this in context. (not to besmirch DF or JK ... they *are* #3 and #2 on my list, respectively, of all time faves).

DF failed to hit its' target release, and Doom had hit ... they knew they had to more than just be 'YADC' (yet another Doom clone). Just having a Star Wars theme wasn't going to be good enough. They were building there own engine (as just about everyone did back then) and wanted to capture some of the SW scope, and to do that needed multi-level maps. Innovative? Sure. Revolutionary - Naw. Lots of cool game have new innovations back then - Duke 3d and Mouselook, and so on.

The best thing about DF was that is was a tight game with excellent levels and a great story you wanted to follow through to the conclusion.

As for JK - first off it doesn't scale graphically nearly as well as its' contemporaries. It was the game that gave you the Force and the lightsaber. Did it innovate anything else? Not really - sure it had tremendous size and scope in the maps. Sure it had two 'endings' ... but not really. It had two 'cutscene paths', and one level was different. But other than that and the limits on your Force Power choices, it was the same for light or dark.

Again, the best thing about JK was that it was a tremendous game.

JO didn't lead the industry in anything of the sorts... JA has a thing or two going for it, in theory, but even still no one is looking to the next LEC FPS for anything groudbreaking. This wasn't always so and that is what disappoints me the most.

Jedi Outcast was the game that really made you feel like a Jedi. Its' use of saber and Force powers made them the best gameplay weapon in a FPS to date.

I'll not say JO was perfect, though - far from it. You had to suspend your disbelief too far, and too many times. The pre-saber levels were crying for a good weapon. The story could have used little touches to change it from good to great. (and other peoples' MP gripes)

Jedi Outcast was also the longest FPS in recent memory. To put it in perspective - JO took me longer than RtCW, MoHAA and MOH_Spearhead combined! ... the day of the long game seems indeed to be over.

Your last sentence may sound good enough for you but it isn't for me. Both DF and JK did major things that no other FPSes had done, not just a select few. That is the disappointing difference.

If your assertion were true, then the industry would bow before Red Faction rather than saying - 'OK, so you can blow up walls and make your own caves ... cool. Now go make a game that isn't crap ... Red Faction 2 - what you can still blow up the world? Still cool ... but didn't you get my last message.

My point - being a good game is much more important than having some new trick.

So what does JA have going for it. First - is it taking care of business in the 'good game' department? I think so - you build your character, who gets to train as a padawan with a saber right away. So any concerns about the pre-saber stuff are gone, and because it is your character it can be more immersive. They are going further with the Star Wars integration in this one with characters and locales. My hope is that they have an even better story in this one.

What about innovation? Actually not bad. You build your character, you choose your missions, you choose your force powers. You build your own saber, and later choose what type of saber to master. This level of controlling your destiny is certainly not RPG-scale, but is beyond any other FPS. And it will be long!

That is an interesting thing - game length. HL2 and DX2 will both (likely) be very long games, so JA won't have that as a distinction ... as opposed to games like Elite Force II, which touted game length, but really falls into that 10 or so hour 'sweet spot'.

Compared:
- Deus Ex 2: in an interview, a dev said they were combined the choices of augmentations and upgrades to make it easier for gamers who found DX1 confusing, and making it more action oriented. To me that's a step back ... I hope it is still a great game ...
- HL2: aside from the new engine, what is new? Unreal II has a new engine, and it is a thing of beauty, but that doesn't mean sh*t to me if the gameplay isn't there. I am confident that it will be a good game, and that the engine and physics will only enhance that ... but that is the id trap, isn't it?
- Doom 3 - isn't this actually just a retelling of the Doom 1 story?

As gaming has matured, drawing distinctions has become much harder than it was 8-10 years ago, when the 3D action game was starting, and even 5 - 7 years ago when it was breaking stride.

Mike

Originally posted by Sargasso
Life is too short to play majorally rehashed game mechanics dictated in part by large corporations whose only motivation is to make as much money as possible.

So I guess you haven't bought a new game since ... um ... Deus Ex?

And only 3 during the Doom era - Doom, Dark Forces, and Duke Nukem 3D. Oops, scratch DF, LEC was clearly using the SW license to make money for 'the man', hopefully repressing the little people if at all possible ;) And JK - nope, couldn't buy that either, sequels are all about feeding fat corporate wallets :rolleyes:

;)

Mike

Originally posted by StormHammer
I know how you feel about Unreal 2. I’ve been a lot more wary since then, and I’ve made an extra effort to play game demos before making a purchasing decision. Having said that, it’s mostly been in relation to ‘untested’ titles from less known developers, rather than those for which I already had some confidence.

First off - OUCH! My eyes hurt from reading your post ... are you sure it wasn't Force EyeStrain?

And I agree - it is the unknown who will truly suffer this year. Breed - I probably won't even take time for the next demo(if there is one). Too much other stuff happening.

You might have a point, but personally I may be a Star Wars fan, but when it comes to games, I’m a gamer first, and a Star Wars fan second. The game has to be solid and engaging, with a mix of the right ingredients, whether it’s a Star Wars title or not. ;) I don’t simply get a Star Wars game because it’s a Star Wars game. As I stated above…I’ll be looking at many other titles this Autumn/Winter period, and trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. I’m just very confident that I’ll like JA based on JO, and based on Raven’s track record. I have played, and enjoyed, many of their games – the only slight disappointment being SOF2, which is let down by a few elements that if fixed would improve the gameplay.

Agree - which is why I don't have any of the XWing or Tie Fighter series, any of the RTS games (Rebellion, FoCom, Gallactic Battlegrounds), Battle for Naboo, StarFighter, Jedi Starfighter, Clone Wars, or Galaxies, to name a few.

BUT - I'm a major SW fan, *AND* a major FPS fan ... so JA - they can count my money for the PC version *and* the Mac version now (assuming there is one).

I also like Raven's games. I didn't think SoFII was very disappointing - decent game, I have replayed it quite a bit - more than RtCW, that's for sure. Way too linear with a rehash ending ... but fun for the weapons and controls (lean around a corner and pick off aterrorist with an OICW ... ahhh)

I may be under a misconception, but I still expect Doom 3 to be a straightforward, slower-paced linear gore-fest with a cliched plot, simple ‘find and press the button’ puzzles and the obligatory ‘big boss in a locked room with lots of health and ammo’ finale. ..

Yeah ? And your point was? ;)

Mace Griffin has been getting average scores for it’s console incarnations, but I’m still very interested in it because it will be mixing on-the-foot shooting with space-based fighter combat, and seamless transitions between. In those terms, it is really bringing something new to the table, and I’m confident the gameplay will be solid, if not necessarily spectacular..

I know you want this game to be good ... and I hope it is. If so I may buy it. However, Elite Force II is getting 'average' scores (not school average, but game average), whereas Mace Griffin is getting below average scores. Not 'poor', but not so good. We can always hope this is a case of a bad PC->console port in reverse :)

Tron 2.0 will probably be a more traditional style game, with light RPG elements, but it does of course have a unique visual impact, and obviously appeals to fans of the original movie (like me)..

With the quarters I pumped into the light cycle Tron game and (especially) Discs of Tron ... I could probably buy this game ... and a copy to send you ;)

Knights Of The Old Republic is a different kettle of fish, because it’s a full-blown RPG in the Star Wars universe, and in some ways it’s a landmark game in spite of the release of SW Galaxies, because it explores a different epoch, and allows a firm grounding for any further games set in that period..

This is the first game that seriously made me think about buying a console. I'll just have to be patient ...

Well, while what you say is true, I’m sure I read somewhere that the average PC gamer is not as young as you might believe. Due to the maturity of the platform, there are a great many more PC gamers in their mid 20’s and above (with arguably more disposable income) than the younger generation. The percentage of PC gamers over the age of 30 is constantly growing, and becoming more a dominant marketing factor.

Younger gamers (by that I mean early teens) are (usually) reliant on their parents for disposable income, I agree, so their choices are often limited.

I’d be surprised, however, if Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 didn’t get mature ratings on release, which starts to narrow down the choices for the younger audience.

In many ways, the ‘safe bet’ from a parents point of view, would arguably be a Star Wars game with a teen rating attached, because almost everyone has seen the movies, and would probably base expected game content off that. Which is probably one of the reasons (read smart move) that Lucasarts always tries to make games with a teen rating, so they have a slightly wider target market. ..

Very iinteresting thoughts ... especially since I'm old ;)

An interesting notion, and in the current gaming climate (with some recently released titles that have been sub-standard), I’d have to applaud any move that puts impetus back into game developers releasing solid and engaging games. When you consider that quite a few ‘classic’ and genre-redefining games were released between 1997-2000, and have managed to stand the test of time (albeit a short span of real time, but almost an ‘era’ in gaming terms these days), it’s a shame and a bit disheartening that attitudes have changed so much and the most recent crop hasn’t had the same kind of impact and will probably not have such long-lasting appeal. ..

It is like movies - go for the quick hit with over-the-top acting, action and cool effects, get your millions in the first couple of weeks and don't worry about what happens when the dust settles and people have the chance to think ...

The feature-set for Jedi Academy alone tells me that they want to keep the franchise fresh and entertaining, while remaining faithful to the other games in the series, and deliver a polished and solid gameplay experience. [B] That is what has me so excited ... I can really see this game starting to come together and think it will displace JO as my fave ever :)

[B]Actually, I think the era of the ‘longer’ games has come and gone. ..., this trend will probably continue, and I think many developers are increasingly viewing a ’10 hour experience’ as a sweet-spot, and something to aim for. ... I’m encouraged to see the likes of Raven still producing games that will offer more than 20 hours of gameplay, but then, I think they again learned from the feedback they had regarding Elite Force, which was quite short.
Quite a shame. I too like a game worth working for. Elite Force was a disappointment because of this, as was MoHAA, Postal 2 (which was just generally crap), and so many others. I'm very glad that JA will be a long game.

Interesting thought - my first time through I was enjoying the DF-ish first levels, and then wanted the saber, and then was just in such a rush that I didn't really relax for the first play-through. Hopefully, since the engine and such will be similar, I'll find myself better able to relax and enjoy JA more ...

Mike

I loved Deus Ex and NOLF - I think those are my two favorite FPS to date. Both for their great story line and their great and innovative action and NOLF was just plain funny.

However, I admit I have never played a game as much as JO - why - because of the battle mechanics. Every other FPS is still just that - a first person shooter - and sure there are different things you can do - jump higher, move faster, change abilities, laugh your ass off - but JO is not a shooter - it is a first person slicer - with force powers - and you can block shooters! I've never found a ladder level I liked until JO came along! So even though there were some problems (which Mike pointed out) - I still think JO has to stand as innovative - maybe in a different way than is typical - but innovative none the less.

ok, i admit it, i skipped a bit towards the end...

Unless the reviews blow them out of the water Doom3 and HL2 are going to sell like mad... but i can't see any point in putting off JA (unless it is maybe until just before xmas for the present market). As every time a new ID game comes out it seems to redifine the market and make a whole raft of game LOOK OBSOLETE. If I was Lucasarts i would be desperatly trying to get JA out before them.

JK suffered from this... it came out just before Q2 and got awesome reviews (even on its graphics) then about 2 weeks later Q2 came out and made its graphics look very dated by comparison (although they could do levels of sizes that would have brought Q2 to its knees :D )

Doom3 might be being put back to Q1 2004 anyway.

I personally have at least 10 games that i haven't played yet sitting on my shelves... and i keep buying more... GTA3:Vc, splinter cell, DS9 The fallen, Thief 2, Tachyon, Medievel:TW and so on. And i still want to buy Morrowind and Neverwinter.

Im not sure about Halo... things that seem great on consoles often don't seem as good on a PC, or visa versa. I have a feeling that the SP game at least might appear fairly repetetive to the average FPS saturated PC gamer.

I tend to play 2 or 3 games of different genres at the same time, but it is pretty much imposible to play 2 games of the same genre at the same time. The advantage of FPSs though is that you can usually burn through them much faster than other game types.... especially as they seem to be getting shorter and shorter.

For this reason (and after seeing those HL2 facial animations) i will almost certainly get both D3 and HL2 on release. JA might well have to wait until i can get it cheaper.

---

I agree about JO being nothing revolutionary... but then they didn't seem to be trying to do that. It was as if LA had been burned so many times with the rubbish they had released over the last few years that they decided to play it safe and just produce a SW themed quake 3 TC. Honestly, i don't see JA as being anything more than an expansion pack.

The weird thing is that due to my growing backlog of games i played JO before playing some older games (deus Ex, DS9 the fallen, etc..) and it still seemed dated in comparison. Generally due to it's lack of ambition i think.

Originally posted by Reprehence
However, I admit I have never played a game as much as JO - why - because of the battle mechanics. Every other FPS is still just that - a first person shooter - and sure there are different things you can do - jump higher, move faster, change abilities, laugh your ass off - but JO is not a shooter - it is a first person slicer - with force powers - and you can block shooters! I've never found a ladder level I liked until JO came along! So even though there were some problems (which Mike pointed out) - I still think JO has to stand as innovative - maybe in a different way than is typical - but innovative none the less.

Very, very well said - and exactly what I have found. JK played much more like a FPS than JO does. JO has a different 'feel' oif gaming than any other FPS I've played - and that feel suits me perfectly.

Mike

Definitely.

I'm going through SP again right now and I am really enjoying it. I set up my force powers and lightsaber the way I want to I had them from the beginning. It has been a blast. And listening to those stormtroopers is hilarious...

Originally posted by toms
I agree about JO being nothing revolutionary... but then they didn't seem to be trying to do that. It was as if LA had been burned so many times with the rubbish they had released over the last few years that they decided to play it safe and just produce a SW themed quake 3 TC. Honestly, i don't see JA as being anything more than an expansion pack.


Yes it's true - JO was a SW themed Q3 TC ... much like:
- Elite Force was a Star Trek themed Q3 TC
- Elite Force II was a prettier Star Trek themed Q3 TC
- Half Life was a Q2 TC
- Deus Ex was a Unreal TC
- Return to Castle Wolfenstein was a Q3 TC
- Medal of Honor Allied Assault was a Q3 TC
- Postal 2 was an Unreal 2 TC
- Deus Ex 2 will be an Unreal 2 TC
- Republic Commando will also be a Unreal 2 TC
- and on and on ...

And Jedi Academy is truly an expansion pack, just like Elite Force II is an expansion pack for Elite Force, and Serious Sam II is an Expansion for Serious Sam.

Mike

There are so many ways to use the cheats and binds - playing through with specific force power settings - it does add some replayability - particularly going back to the first two missions to play them with saber after you've finished the game.

I just noticed some news that DOOMIII is going to be delayed - probably until after Christmas. That may help JA's launch for the fall.

i cannot say that JO wasn't revolutionary. it finally gave a game where you actually had a feel of being a jedi, just like JK except this time there was a very cool lightsaber engine that finally gave fans a decent fight and tense battle similar to the movies.

Originally posted by Reprehence
I just noticed some news that DOOMIII is going to be delayed - probably until after Christmas. That may help JA's launch for the fall.

Yeah ... here's a link:

http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=15762)

I'm somewhat surprised - I never bought the retail predictions of October 2nd, but figured that it would be out in December.

That could bode well for many games for the holiday season.

I still wonder if HL2 will make Sept 30th. If it does, then I'm assuming it was pretty much done and tested when they even announced it - they could get away with the major delays for HL1 and look like heroes based on the results, but this time they'd look like fools ...

Mike

i already said that! :p

actually, what activision said was something along the lines of "we have no idea when it is coming out, that is entirely up to ID. but we thought it best to move our prediction back a bit to allow room for delays".

As far as i know ID are still aiming for their stated release date. although maybe Activision knows somehting we don't.

I think ID are powerful enough that they can release it "when its done".

Originally posted by toms
i already said that! :p

actually, what activision said was something along the lines of "we have no idea when it is coming out, that is entirely up to ID. but we thought it best to move our prediction back a bit to allow room for delays".

As far as i know ID are still aiming for their stated release date. although maybe Activision knows somehting we don't.

I think ID are powerful enough that they can release it "when its done".

It is very likely as this was a public statement that they want to make sure that Wall Street doesn't build massive Doom3 sales into 3rd quarter earnings predictions based on holiday sales. That way they can exceed expectations if it does ship pre-holiday and someone gets to look like a hero and get a big bonus ;) And if it doesn't make it they won't get pounded for failing to meet expectations.

I also think that id are big enough, and this game has enough buzz, to weather some delays with no impact. I think just about any game developer can explain away a few months of delays to improve the game ... so long as they actually do it :eek:

Mike

Originally posted by StormHammer
actually have a database of upcoming games in which I have an interest, and I mark in bold those I want more than any of the others, and they become my primary hit list. I try to get those games immediately on release. My secondary hit list comprises games I’m interested in, but I may leave them for a few months before getting them – and some I wait long enough for them to become budget titles.


Said thing ... me too ;)

I actually have a multi-tab Excel workbook for this stuff - one tab for games, one for music CD's, and one for DVD's, with a front page that brings them all together along with the money I have 'set aside' for these things.

So for instance I have known for a while I'd be buying the TTT DVD at the end of August, but hadn't been keeping an eye out for new Pat Metheny, David Sanborn and John Scofield CD's that would come out in quick order, and that I'd actually like and buy ...

Mike