How? Personally, I think that players can interact with objects and shoot them. Like levitating a box and throwing it at them.

Originally posted by HaruGlory89
How? Personally, I think that players can interact with objects and shoot them. Like levitating a box and throwing it at them.

No you won't be able to this I think... And who the f*ck are the Yuuzhan Vong?? Some EU crap?? I don't think Raven gives a sh*t about EU, they make their own stories :cool:

I think the Vong's appearance is further ahead in the timeline so i dont think they will make an appearance.

Anyway... it would probably be interesting tho.

Given the fact that Raven's stories become EU, I think that's a pretty stupid statement to make.

In any case, to answer your question, there's practically a zero chance of any "Vong spies" showing up. It would be interesting to fight one perhapes as a mini boss or something fully masked. Although I suppose it's possible considering how Mara Jade, R-41 Star Chasers, T-Wings, Korriban, Holocrons and Noghiri made it into Mysteries of the Sith.

And let's not forget the references to the New Republic, Imperial Remnant, Mon Mothma as Cheif of State (and running things on Coruscant no less), Ruby Bliels and Whaleadons in JO while we're at it. ;)

Raven has nothing to do with the story. Lucasarts does that stuff and decides what will be in and what won't be. They can also choose what EU they'll use and what they won't...I don't think Lucasarts will use Yuuzhan Vong (whatever those are) because many people don't have a clue of what they are.

I thought Raven does have input on the story. It seems like I remember reading a q/a about JO where one of the Raven guys talked about coming up with the story early on. Of course LEC has oversight and approval, but I don't think they are inventing and providing the story to Raven.

i am pretty sure that Raven can in essence do whatever they want just so long as they clear it with Lucas Arts. obviously they can't have Luke die or whatever, but stuff like the reborns, etc.

but i think the most tehy could do is have a Yuuzhan Vong in disguise or something

From the JKII Team page on jediknightii.net
Game Design and Story:
Raven Software and LucasArts

As you can see Raven did the game design and Lucasarts did the story.

Jediknightii.net also has an interview with Mike Stemmle who wrote the script for Jedi Knight II...he works for Lucasarts and wrote the scripts for Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Sam and Max Hit the Road, Afterlife, and Escape from Monkey Island.

The problem with having the Vong as a game enemy is that they are (correct my if I'm wrong, since I don't read the NJO) more or less unaffected by the force. Having a game were players want to use cool force powers and then having an enemy you can't use them against would be as fun as watching paint dry.

Well, it's not IMPOSSIBLE. Just difficult.

Force powers that work on the Vong would be push (Anakin Solo and Ganner did it), choke (Tahiri tried to crush the Vong with their own air making it a different technique of choke but hey it works), rage (enhances one's own strength IIRC), lightening (Jaina and Jacen both used this), saber toss (Luke did this), and speed (for obvious reasons).

How will players deal with Yuuzhan Vong if the make an appearance??

I don't read the EU or NJO very much, but from what I know of it, the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the galaxy about 20 years or so after ROTJ. According to the opening blurb in JO, it was set only eight years after ROTJ. I've heard conflicting accounts of how long after JO JA takes place, but I doubt that it's as much as 12 years.

On the off chance that they do show up, I'll probably deal with them by whacking them over the head with a lightsaber.

To sum up...the most obvious problem is this:

WTF is Yuuschan Vhyoungz and what's the point in playing a JEDI in a STAR WARS universe when the opposition consists of who-the-hell-are-these-guys that on top of being "nobodys" are not affected by the force?

vehicular combat maybe, crush them under atst. but since they have shell armor like a shadowtrooper that takes little damage from lightsabers and blasters, itll just be a prolonged fight, and theyd make good opponents for lightsiders everytime they use bio weapons ud just use protect or heal, whereas a dark side has just offensive powers to deal with them which are useless. maybe they can be used near the end for the lightside missions :D

WOW:eek: Guess I'm not the only one who hates the Vongs(Heh, heh!:D )

Oh god, please leave the Yuzhan Vong out of this. I stopped reading the SW EU books after the Black Fleet (or whatever it was) crisis took place because the books just had so little to do with the films I loved. Timothy Zahn's original three books were great, the next trilogy by Kevin Anderson was ok, and after that the books were fairly disappointing.

Now I hear that there's a new enemy, some biological, non-force enemy, the Jedi are split into different camps, main characters that I thought had EARNED a peaceful death get killed off, etc., etc., etc. It just sounds like so much crap to me, and I'd really rather not see these things show up in the games.

Plus, it'd be marketing suicide for Raven and LEC to actually do this. I think people would much rather slice up stormtroopers than evil self-mutilating wackos from beyond the outer rim. What the hell would be the point of that? To me, they just aren't Star Wars, and if I play a Star Wars game, I want a Star Wars experience. So, if the Yuzhan Vong were in the game, how would I interact with it?

Unless it's got fantastic multiplayer and I was back on DSL, put simply, I wouldn't.

Time to send Solo4114 a free copy of ... aw sh*t I can't even think of the name of a NJO book to finish a joke ...

The NJO - and the whole Vong thing - has sold a lot of books on the backs of the new movies, but seem quite divisive within the community. I read a few of the books. They were OK, but I never 'engaged' them - I never accepted their premise, I never let them into my view of any Star Wars Universe. And I think I'm far from alone in that ...

People have complained about JKII not being 'star-warsy' enough. The whole NJO reeks of Star Trek to me - this whole race of near indestructible anti-Borg (no-tech vs. all-tech) taking over the galaxy. Sure I've not followed it to its' conclusion - I couldn't take it any more.

I hope that the popular appeal of slicin' Stormies keeps LEC away from the NJO ... I'd rather they release the SDK and let some of the great mappers out there go to town.

Mike

Originally posted by Solo4114
To me, they just aren't Star Wars, and if I play a Star Wars game, I want a Star Wars experience. So, if the Yuzhan Vong were in the game, how would I interact with it?

I agree with you for 100% :D I never read any SW books, so I can't comment on the content of those books, but if most ppl who play these games haven't heard of this and that species, please leave it out :)

SW games are about the things you see in the movies, because that's what makes it a starwars game! If there are some similarities (sp?) with EU material; fine, but don't make it confusing for ppl who didn't read the books.


BTW, the main force using enemy you'll encounter in JA will be some kind of organisation, seeking control of the galaxy or something :rolleyes: I'm really curious about how they are going to make an interesting story this time :D Please don't screw up Raven!!

Originally posted by HertogJan
SW games are about the things you see in the movies, because that's what makes it a starwars game! If there are some similarities (sp?) with EU material; fine, but don't make it confusing for ppl who didn't read the books.


That's the thing - it isn't really about what was in the movies, because it is some years later, but it needs to maintain a connection to the movies in some way. KOTOR takes a few lines from Star Wars (aka ANH for those <32 or so ;)) mixes it with some EU and makes a compelling new universe. The thing is - it is still Jedi vs. Sith, which people get.

Vong? Wasn't that that game I played at my Uncle's house in ~1972 or something? Seriously - it is not an easy challenge to make a new story that features Dark vs. Light that people can get into, and thread it into the established EU. So you put in some EU references (the Jedi academy on Yavin, for instance) mixed with movie cameos (Lando).

Your last line says it - we've seen these Force Powers from the movies - don't mess with them for people who don't read the books.

Mike

Yeah, from what I heard, the Yuzhan-Vong thing IS pretty Star Trek and borg-esque. It just really seemed to get away from the true feeling of Star Wars.

I recognize that they needed to come up with something fresh because the Empire was basically dead, and you can only run the old "A new warlord seeks to gain absolute power" or "Planetary system X wishes to secede from the Republic" storyline so many times before it gets REALLY tired.

But what they came up with instead just sounds...WRONG. The force is supposed to affect every living creature in the galaxy. Even if that creature creates a bubble around it, like the ysalimiri, it's still affected by or affecting the force. The notion that the Vong are entirely outside it kind of destroys the concept of the force.

I have my own ideas about what would've made for a great story in the Star Wars universe's future AND would've stuck to the feel or at least the subject matter of the films, but that'd require getting a license from Lucasfilm, which they'd never give me, probably. :)

I hate Vong! They killed Chewbacca! :p

I got tired of reading EU after I finished the Timothy Zahn series, so now I just read JRRT books. :)

Well, unless you're reading all the extra stuff they periodically unearth by Tolkien, you must be running out of material or rereading the same stuff over and over. PM me if you're looking for some other good sci-fi/fantasy series. I've read a bunch of different stuff and would be happy to share ideas (though not in this thread, as it would take things WAY off topic).

"Now I hear that there's a new enemy, some biological, non-force enemy"

Yup,

"the Jedi are split into different camps"

That was a temporary plot thread, they never actually split, it was an ideological split, now repaired.


"main characters that I thought had EARNED a peaceful death get killed off, etc., etc., etc."

You don't "earn" a peaceful death just by fighting your entire life, if the world really does need you you keep fighting until all enemies are defeated or you die. Besides, you'd rather Chewie not fufill his life debt to Han? That's the whole point of the debt, that Chewie would give his life for Han and his family, him dying a peaceful death is a strike against the bond that held them together for so long.

"It just sounds like so much crap to me, and I'd really rather not see these things show up in the games."

Ah, so you've never actually read the books eh? Why listen to a reviewer when you can go to a library and find out for yourself?

Besides, lots of people hate Tim Zahn, that didn't keep Mara Jade or Noghiri out of Mysteries of the Sith.

The nice thing about fighting one (or two) Vong would be the challenge. It'd be more like fighting Dessan, unless you get insanely lucky, it's almost impossible for a someone without experience fighting Vong to kill them on the first strike. Their armor and weapons can withstand multiple saber blows. That'd be fun, as long as it wasn't TOO hard.

Originally posted by Anakin1607
The nice thing about fighting one (or two) Vong would be the challenge. It'd be more like fighting Dessan, unless you get insanely lucky, it's almost impossible for a someone without experience fighting Vong to kill them on the first strike. Their armor and weapons can withstand multiple saber blows. That'd be fun, as long as it wasn't TOO hard.

Well ok, fighting two Vong at a time as some kind of 'level boss' would be great. A non-force-weilding opponent like Gallak Fayar (eh.. sp?) was a nice change in JO :)

But they shouldn't give too much attention to those EU things :) I wanna recognize really starwarzy things :D

no, No, and NO!

The YV belong and only belong in the NJO, it would not only look ridiculous putting it into JA but also be the worst marketing strategy Raven has ever done. Too many people (1) don't know what the hell the YV, or (2) hate that they appeared in the Sta Wars universe, or (3) frankly don't care what they are that this game would only sell to the few hardcore SW fans, which is NOT what Raven is aiming for and wants. They want this game to sell to the mass public, to be playable and understandable to the common Joe or Bob down the street. In short, JA + YV = :barf:

Originally posted by Anakin1607
"Now I hear that there's a new enemy, some biological, non-force enemy"

Yup,

"the Jedi are split into different camps"

That was a temporary plot thread, they never actually split, it was an ideological split, now repaired.


"main characters that I thought had EARNED a peaceful death get killed off, etc., etc., etc."

You don't "earn" a peaceful death just by fighting your entire life, if the world really does need you you keep fighting until all enemies are defeated or you die. Besides, you'd rather Chewie not fufill his life debt to Han? That's the whole point of the debt, that Chewie would give his life for Han and his family, him dying a peaceful death is a strike against the bond that held them together for so long.

"It just sounds like so much crap to me, and I'd really rather not see these things show up in the games."

Ah, so you've never actually read the books eh? Why listen to a reviewer when you can go to a library and find out for yourself?

Besides, lots of people hate Tim Zahn, that didn't keep Mara Jade or Noghiri out of Mysteries of the Sith.

The nice thing about fighting one (or two) Vong would be the challenge. It'd be more like fighting Dessan, unless you get insanely lucky, it's almost impossible for a someone without experience fighting Vong to kill them on the first strike. Their armor and weapons can withstand multiple saber blows. That'd be fun, as long as it wasn't TOO hard.

Well, I disagree. I don't like the notion of them. No, I haven't read the books, but then, I also haven't seen and don't intend to see 2 Fast 2 Furious. Not because of what some critic or reviewer said (since I often don't trust them anyway), but because the basic premise just doesn't sound terribly entertaining to me.

The same is true of the NJO books for me. I didn't actually read any reviewers' comments on the books. What I read was the stuff on StarWars.com about various characters when I got curious as to what was going on in the SW universe these days. I found out that we're dealing with anti-Borg (aptly named, by the way), main characters are dying, and the Force is basically useless. Sounds like crap to me, so I don't intend to read 'em.

I like to think of myself as a discriminating consumer, or at least one who knows his own tastes. I don't eagerly lap up everything Star Wars just because it has the brand name tacked on to it. It's got to actually evoke what I consider the Star Wars universe which, as far as I'm concerned, should not include the Force being useless or bio-tech sado-masichists.

Does it have to be the same old Empire vs. Rebels/Republic? Of course not, but if you're going to fling the stories into the future, at least have them hark back to the canon that created them. Fundamentally, my attitude about this stuff is a simple commandment: Thou shalt not screweth around (overly much) with the canon. I like innovation, but from the sound of it, these books are more about characters from the old universe being tossed into a new one, and that just doesn't cut it for me. Say what you will about Zahn's work, at least he captured the FEEL of the films better than anyone else in print.

As for characters earning a peaceful death, I don't mean that in the sense that the galaxy owes it to them or that I'd want to see them say "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing" and sit the conflict out. If they did that, they wouldn't be the heroes we've grown to love. What I am saying is that they have earned a peaceful death from the WRITERS whose families were fed and mortgages were paid for by these characters. I don't mind important characters in being killed off in a particular series (it didn't bug me in the latest Harry Potter book, for example), but this whole NJO experiment seems like it was concocted 1.) to generate money, and 2.) because they'd run out of ideas in the traditional Star Wars universe. When something like that happens, you do need to shake things up, but from the way it sounds, they shook the Star Wars right out of the books.

Anyway, regardless, I'd say they'd make for lousy game material. I suspect they're too esoteric for the vast majority of Star Wars fans. They sound like, while they'd be difficult opponents, they'd be so primarily because they break all the "rules" of the Star Wars universe. And frankly, they just don't sound that interesting to me. If I want the borg or something like it, I'll go play the Elite Force single player. So, if you want 'em, mod 'em. Otherwise, let's just stick with the classics, shall we?

Just a question ...

HaruGlory89 (and other NJO supporters) - Doesn't it tell you something that everytime the NJO comes up is ends up in this same type of heated and divisive debate? Not about who is 'right' or 'wrong', but about whether this would be a good thing to bring to the SW gamign community>

(BTW - I completely agree with you, Solo4114 ... as if I needed to say anything, the anti-Borg tag was mine ...)

Mike

HaruGlory89 (and other NJO supporters) - Doesn't it tell you something that everytime the NJO comes up is ends up in this same type of heated and divisive debate? Not about who is 'right' or 'wrong', but about whether this would be a good thing to bring to the SW gamign community>
:mad: I am NOT A NJO SUPPORTER! I HATE NJO! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't you ever, ever, ever call me that. I really hate NJO so don't call be that. Why do I hate it? Vongs take out all SW appeals! No more cool lightsaber guys some mutations and stuff comes in!

Originally posted by HaruGlory89
:mad: I am NOT A NJO SUPPORTER! I HATE NJO! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't you ever, ever, ever call me that. I really hate NJO so don't call be that. Why do I hate it? Vongs take out all SW appeals! No more cool lightsaber guys some mutations and stuff comes in!

Oops ... very sorry, if I had re-read the thread I would have see that it was Anakin1607 that supported the NJO. I *assumed* that it was you since you started the thread, but now I see differently.

Sorry again :(

Mike

As has been stated, marketing-wise the Vong wouldn't work. For the vast majority of Star Wars fans, Star Wars means Rebels/New Republic vs. Empire.

Originally posted by Prime
As has been stated, marketing-wise the Vong wouldn't work. For the vast majority of Star Wars fans, Star Wars means Rebels/New Republic vs. Empire.

And that doesn't mean that there isn't anything left to do in that time - people would easily adapt to the Solo kids as players in the game - or to a Kyle/Jan kid for that matter. They've introduced powerful weapons and anti-weapons in the books that could be the basis of new stories. It is really just the Vong ...

Mike

I've never accepted the Yuzzhan Vong as part of the Star Wars universe. It's just a way for Lucasfilm to get even more money from it's dedicated fans, even taking the risk of alienating some of them. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't believe Lucas when he says that he likes their work. More like he likes the money from their work. (don't kill me on this one. Believe me, I am one big Star Wars fan.) If he read some of these books, I don't think he would like them at all. One thing you have to remember is that Lucas made Star Wars movies so that people of all ages could watch them. If I saw a Yuzzhan Vong on a movie screen when I was five, I would be absolutely terrified. Besides, Lucas wanted the Empire to represent the ultimate evil. When the authors of the NJO books introduced a "more evil" opponent, it makes the Empire not look so bad, something that I think Lucas would not approve of. And Chewbacca dying??!! What's up with that?! Yeah sure, he survives countless near death experiences in both the movies and EU, then suddenly dies shortly after first contact with an alien race never seen before? Doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't even feel like Star Wars to me. Whatever happened to the classic bad-guys-underestimate-the-good-guys that's part of every Star Wars film? Now it's good-guys-get-their-head-handed-to-them-by-some-alien-bio-freaks. And biological ships flying in space. In a vaccuum. Where all organic material is supposed to immediately combust, killing the organic instantly. But these bio-ships somehow defy all rules of science and survive. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. And they're stronger than metal ships with deflector shields. Riiiiiiiiiiight. And they can heal themselves at an impossible rate. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Oh well, I'll never accept them. In my mind, Nar Shadda and Coruscant are still free and Han Solo's still travelling the galaxy with his lifelong partner Chewbacca. Rock on, Chewie.:D

I could easily accept Chewbacca dying in the line of repaying his life debt ... but not in the context of the NJO and the Vong. It is a paradigm shift many are not willing to make.

Thing is, think of the sh*tstorm when Lucas tried to answer logically the question 'how would QuiGon know he was unusually strong in the Force' with 'MidiChlorians', rather than using the Force himself, as Luke did in some of the EU stuff. People had their own ideas about the Force, which was more mystical than physical.

The Vong mess around with the whole concept of the Force, of good and evil, and of the extent of the galaxy. It is something that a large mass of fans say 'NFW' to even considering.

And, as someone has said - you don't need to read all 16 (or whatever) books to judge the series anymore than you don't need to read more than the blurn on the back of a paperback to have an idea of whether it will appeal to you.

Now if you'll pardon me... I need to go slice a few Rodians and Stormtroopers to cleanse myself of this whole Vong thing ...

Mike

You know, if Lucas ever did decide to make sequels to the original trilogy, he'd drop the NJO stuff in a heartbeat. It'd just have occurred "in an alternate universe" or something.

Now, personally, I always thought that a sequel series would be best if it was totally independent of the original trilogy characters or their offspring. BUT, it'd still need to keep the conventions established by the films and some of the books. I'd dump the NJO storyline altogether. I've got a couple of ideas for what to do there, but I'll keep 'em to myself for now. :) Who knows. If I ever give up my legal career, maybe I'll be able to save the Star Wars franchise. lol

Originally posted by Neverhoodian
And they're stronger than metal ships with deflector shields. Riiiiiiiiiiight.
gravity wells. and they're not just in the njo (interdictors in the past).

And biological ships flying in space. In a vaccuum. Where all organic material is supposed to immediately combust, killing the organic instantly. But these bio-ships somehow defy all rules of science and survive. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. And they're stronger than metal ships with deflector shields. Riiiiiiiiiiight. And they can heal themselves at an impossible rate. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Hey, if that's a potshot at Xenosaga, I'll kill you right now!

Just kidding.

Well, the explanation for some of the technology may come from the Star Wars EU, but I still think that the more important issue is that the Vong seem (at least to me, and only in theory, since I haven't read any NJO books) to depart too much from the SPIRIT of the films and even most of the other EU material.

Make no mistake, Star Wars is space fantasy. Battles of Good vs. Evil, writ large. Archetypal mythological storytelling at its best. Yes, it has scifi aspects to it, but at its core, the stories are epic fantasy. Now, from what I hear, there are some aspects of that in the NJO books, like the heroic self-sacrifice thing. But essentially, the Vong just don't seem to me to fit into the universe well. They're something that people made up when they ran out of good ideas, something that was developed around a conference table with people brainstorming.

"Ok, so we need new bad guys..."

"They have to be menacing and really evil."

"Yeah! Worse than the Empire!"

"Worse than the Sith!"

"Yeah...and they need to be practically unstoppable..."

"Um....they could.....be totally immune to the Force!"

"Yeah! That's great! And..um....they could have totally biological weapons!"

"Yeah! And uh...they....um......mutilate themselves as a form of perverse pleasure and...uh....to show how powerful they are..or something!"

And if I'd been in the meeting, I'd have probably said something like, "Hey guys...um...what does this have to do with the Star Wars universe? I mean, this all sounds really cool, but does it belong in THIS particular setting? Besides, aren't you afraid of getting sued by Paramount? They're pretty litigious, you know."
Not that it would've helped, I'm sure.

It just seems contrived to me. There are plenty of ways that the original universe could've been maintained and yet still provided new heroic battles without resorting to the "evil big nasty unstoppable alien" cliche. You could be more complex and have there be internal divisiveness. Have some student follow closely to Luke's teachings, but then depart from the established path because he felt that the Jedi had to rule the galaxy in order to best protect it. Actually, scrap that. That'll likely be what we see in Episode III.

I realize that the Rebel/Empire scenario has been done to death and something fresh had to happen in the universe, but surely THIS is not the best that could've been done. Sadly, it's licensed now, and unless Lucas happens to read the books and say "MAN this is crap. We gotta fix this..." nothing will change. In the meantime, people will continue to consume the stories because they have "Star Wars" on the cover and names like Luke, Mara, and Leia on the pages, whether or not the stories stay true to the characters, the universe, or the underlying spirit of the previous stories themselves.

Still, there ARE ways to save the stories and sidestep the Vong stuff, while still keeping it as an interesting story. Or rather, as an interesting POSSIBLE story. :)

Exactly...as an example look at Knights of the Old Republic. It takes place 4000 years before the movies and yet it has the Star Wars feel that the movies had. (Based on the IGN review (http://xbox.ign.com/articles/428/428645p1.html?fromint=1) of the Xbox version...they gave it a 9.5 :) )

I realy don't think this will be happening. The Vong cannot be sensed or effected through the force, making it quite useless.


IF they allow Vong in SP, wouldn't they have to make it available in MP? How would this work?!

Wouldn't mind a vong like boss though.

They'd have to make bosses somewhat difficult because of actual sword/staff/saberwielding skill instead of them being hard just because they sling you around the level ever 2 seconds and shoot lightning and grip at the same time.

I mean really, can't we go up against a lightsaber wielder who doesn't even use the force to beat us? One that has overwhelming saber skills in sp? I'd love to be driven back, dying multiple times by a saber wielder in SP. Not because he slung overexaggerated force powers at me *cough*. But because he actually had unbelievable skill in lightsaber combat. Or amphistaff (sp?) combat.

Yeah, good point. The Dark Horse comics stories which originally developed the time period in which KOTOR takes place did a good job of taking the Star Wars universe in a new direction, while maintaining the spirit and feel of the universe.

I wouldn't mind a badass sabre-wielding opponent (as opposed to Desann, who just spammed his force powers at you). I found Tavion to be challenging at first, and fun to play against, but once I got better at sabre combat she wasn't quite as tough.

It'd be interesting to see a sort of swashbuckler type, or someone who got really GOOD at using the lightsabre more out of curiosity and affectation rather than because of any force/jedi training. Maybe some sort of eccentric general who collects ancient weapons and trains himself in their use. You could have to challenge and defeat him in order to obtain a holocron or some source of knowledge (which would, coincidentally, be the very source from which he learned to fight). Could make for an interesting add-on mission for JA SP.

"I realy don't think this will be happening. The Vong cannot be sensed or effected through the force, making it quite useless."

Did you or did you not read the half dozen forcepowers I posted that are still very effective against the Vong? The Vong don't stop the Jedi from USING the force. It's just they can't be SENSED. An ambush for example, can be detected by a Jedi because he can sense the beings trying to ambush him. He can sense where an opponent will strike and or shoot a split second before it happens. This isn't the case with the Vong. It's a subtle but dangerous thing. This has nothing to do with gameplay mechanics because we're normal people. We CAN'T know where an opponent will strike next so in that respect the Jedi actually have a handy cap compared to us (they learn quickly though).

"Yeah, good point. The Dark Horse comics stories which originally developed the time period in which KOTOR takes place did a good job of taking the Star Wars universe in a new direction, while maintaining the spirit and feel of the universe."

Exactly, if they can do a good job with Tales of the Jedi, which MANY fans hate, why not the New Jedi Order?

Some things people hate about TOTJ:

Some Purists feel that it's a slight against Maul, because Exar Kun was the first person to use a double saber several years before he did.

There's some really wacky Sith magic in the stories that defy all logic.

There are horribly overpowered superweapons.

There are characters that are clone copies of the movie ones.

At times the story is very violent and graphic.

Jedi get killed left and right and are make to seem "weak" before the Sith.

This, as you can see, matches with some of the complaints against the NJO. If Bioware can make a game on that's getting 9.5s left and right, why is it such a terrible burden to put a few Vong to fight in Jedi Academy?

The Vong cannot be in JA because of timeline issues. Also the extremely obvious marketing issues. So why is this thread still open?

Originally posted by Anakin1607
This, as you can see, matches with some of the complaints against the NJO. If Bioware can make a game on that's getting 9.5s left and right, why is it such a terrible burden to put a few Vong to fight in Jedi Academy?

Let's see how this works:

"All of the standards and paradigms of the Star Wars universe --Jedi vs Sith, bureaucracy and politics-- are present in this game and both the gameplay and storyline work within those guidelines. "

"decisions that not only affect your leanings to the Dark Side or the Light Side of the force"

"If C3PO ever grew a sack --of nuts and bolts, heh-- he'd be HK-47. Likewise with all of your crew members in the game; they each borrow recognizable elements from characters in the original Star Wars trilogy. Throw in a major plot twist or two, there's no way you'll see the first one coming, and it's clear KOTOR is built to entertain both as a game and as another volume in the Star Wars library. "

THAT'S how it works. It is because it isn't so into the 'extreme' stuff you refer to, but more about melding some elements of that story with the familiar OT & PT stories, and making it new and fresh, yet familiar all at the same time.

And THAT is why the Vong won't work.

Mike

Originally posted by Emon
The Vong cannot be in JA because of timeline issues. Also the extremely obvious marketing issues. So why is this thread still open?

Agreed ... it is obviously wrong in terms of timing - I think this thread has become "why no star wars game should ever be about the Vong".

Mike

Originally posted by Anakin1607
Did you or did you not read the half dozen forcepowers I posted that are still very effective against the Vong? The Vong don't stop the Jedi from USING the force. It's just they can't be SENSED. An ambush for example, can be detected by a Jedi because he can sense the beings trying to ambush him. He can sense where an opponent will strike and or shoot a split second before it happens. This isn't the case with the Vong. It's a subtle but dangerous thing. This has nothing to do with gameplay mechanics because we're normal people. We CAN'T know where an opponent will strike next so in that respect the Jedi actually have a handy cap compared to us (they learn quickly though).

That may be true, and you might, for example, be able to use dark side powers against them, but as a light side Jedi, you'd just be utterly outclassed against them. Plus, given the way how sabres currently work, where it takes 2 to 3 hits minimum to kill an enemy boss or mini boss (shadow trooper, Tavion, Reborn, etc.), you'd basically have enemies who are not that different from your usual bosses except that the force would be useless against them. I don't think that'd be all that compelling, and there are better ways to bring in such a boss (IE: the Fyar level, a Rancor, etc.). In order to actually make the Vong be that interesting, from what I've heard about them, you'd have to actually make the force useless against them (which would reduce the game to using guns against them -- and in that case, why are we even playing a jedi game at all), or you'd let the force be useful against them and they'd just be yet another bad guy you have to beat, in which case their appeal or marketability would be the tie-in with the NJO. And as has been said, the NJO is either too controversial or too esoteric to base an entire game off of.

Exactly, if they can do a good job with Tales of the Jedi, which MANY fans hate, why not the New Jedi Order?

Some things people hate about TOTJ:

Some Purists feel that it's a slight against Maul, because Exar Kun was the first person to use a double saber several years before he did.

There's some really wacky Sith magic in the stories that defy all logic.

There are horribly overpowered superweapons.

There are characters that are clone copies of the movie ones.

At times the story is very violent and graphic.

Jedi get killed left and right and are make to seem "weak" before the Sith.

This, as you can see, matches with some of the complaints against the NJO. If Bioware can make a game on that's getting 9.5s left and right, why is it such a terrible burden to put a few Vong to fight in Jedi Academy?

Some fans may dislike it, but say what you will, at least they still keep true to the underlying universe. Sure, the Sith magic is weird at times, but we can write that off by saying that it was an early form of the Sith that we know today, and perhaps they were more knowledgeable about the Sith at that point. As for people being pissed about the Maul/Kun thing, those folks need to get a grip. I'm sorry but who the hell cares? There may be overpowered superweapons, but overpowered in what sense? In the sense that they shouldn't be able to make them at that point of the Star Wars timeline? Why not? They can make lightsabres, ships that travel in hyperspace, and blasters it seems, so you've got all the ingredients for powerful superweapons to me. And if some of the characters are clones of ones in the films, well, that's better than totally disregarding the feel of the films just for the sake of novelty.

A game based in the Tales of the Jedi universe still holds true to the underlying mythology and maintains the conventions already established in the universe. It's therefore a lot easier to gain the public's interest, even if they've never read any of the EU stuff from that part of the timeline. It's a simple sell, really. "Coming soon from Bioware and LucasArts! Now YOU can see what the Old Republic was like, 4000 years before Star Wars! Be a Jedi! Fight the evil Sith! Defend the Republic!" All the basic conventions are there in order to bring in fans who don't know jack about that universe, and the fans wouldn't come away from it thinking, "Man...that sucked. What was up with the too-many-piercings guys??" There's little by way of risk when you decide to market a game that departs from the classic timeline, but DOESN'T depart from the underlying FEEL of that timeline, even if people haven't heard of it.

Look, you can like the Vong all you want. I don't particularly care, but as has been said, marketing and gameplay are stacked against including them in a game. But if you think you can pull it off, by all means, make a mod that brings the Vong in. Maybe it'd be fun, who knows. For my money, though, I won't be playing any Vong games.

As for this thread turning into a "The Vong sucks. Don't make a game with them," thread, well, yeah it has. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. Debating the pros and cons of including certain aspects of the licensed Star Wars universe (whether or not you agree with it being spiritually a part of the universe) is worthwhile, although perhaps more suited towards a general or off-topic forum. For purposes of JA, though, it just ain't gonna happen. They'd be stupid to bring in the Vong and would end up alienating a good portion of the fan base.

hem hem.

Hem Hem.

Hem Hem

HEM HEM

This has gotten so Swampy ...

As for your comments: "Coming soon from Bioware and LucasArts! Now YOU can see what the Old Republic was like, 4000 years before Star Wars! Be a Jedi! Fight the evil Sith! Defend the Republic!"

That is an immediate draw and attraction for SW fans - in a couple of lines you have everything you need to know to tell you you'll like this game. Same for JA - "Join Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy in the New Republic, train in the Force and your lightsaber skills, and help battle a new evil menace looking to take over the galaxy'. NJO ... my quickest explanation always starts with 'there's this new enemy that's sorta like the Borg from Star Trek ...'

(sorry for the HP OoTP ref ... enjoying reading it to my kids these days ...)

Force powers that work on the Vong would be push (Anakin Solo and Ganner did it), choke (Tahiri tried to crush the Vong with their own air making it a different technique of choke but hey it works), rage (enhances one's own strength IIRC), lightening (Jaina and Jacen both used this), saber toss (Luke did this), and speed (for obvious reasons).


SPOILERS ARE IN THIS POST!!! I know there is a spoiler option to use but im not going to use them.

Avoid this post if you plan on reading NJO!!!!

AVOID THIS POST IF YOU PLAN ON READING NJO!!! :)

Thats all.

I've read all of the NJO books aside from Force Heretic 3 ( which just came out), and Destinys way ( which was only available in hardbook (sp?) form so I couldn't buy it). I know Anakin did this at some point, but I don't remember which book. But wasn't it in Star By Star?

He had to use all of his force potential at the end if im correct, and it literally was burning him alive, his cells were bursting. So the only way for him to sense the Yuuzhan Vong ( discluding the lambent, which was doing he sensing for him I think), was to literally kill yourself. To totally open yourself to the force so that you were so strong, that you could sense and manipulate the Vong. Thats the only way I think he was able to do it. Ganner was on the verge of death in Traitor I believe, and I believe he may have used the exact same technique to be quite honest.

I don't see how any Padawan could access this ability to be quite honest.

Choke wouldn't work imo. Wasn't Tahiri in a membrane of some sort? She had her own air in there. She messed with the air outside the membrane, thus she was protected. If she was outside the membrane, shewould have more than likely suffered as well ( sorry if im wrong, it was a few books ago). Anyway the proposition seems quite strange to me. " Force Air crush!". You'd probably just see people fall down and sucking sound coming from your hand. I don't know.

Well duh Rage could be used. All self inflicting powers can be used, you can be effected by the force, the Vong usually can't. Thats the point here.

Im puzzled on force lightning. It SEEMS like it could be done. But I think I remember Jaina or Jacen using it, and the lightning simply blazed around them and hit the roof, causing rocks to fall to the ground. It's just a headache. ( again, I could be wrong.)

You see they could easily use Timothy Zahns characters, Mara, and that general story. They did this in MOTs. So they have no problem yanking some EU in. But the thing is, that wasn't that hard to get! All the star wars fans had to see was hey! Your a Jedi by the Name of Mara Jade, and your Kyles padawan. Your killing stormies again! Not that hard to get.

But with the NJO you've got to start at the beginning or everything just gets stupid. And thats way to much stuff to be put into the game. You can't just be thrown in the middle, then no one would know what was going on ( except avid readers). So they'd have no choice but start at the beginning, with the Vong invading or something. Things simply get way to complicated to include the Vong sadly. If they were to make there own NJO base game, then that would be great! But leave it out of JA, and give it its own series title.

We probably won't be seeing Vong. And I wouldn't them either.

its all about FEEL (as bruce lee might say :D )

Everything i have seen of KOTOR seems to indicate they have got the FEEL of starwars right down, even if a lot of the timeline and specifics might be different.

Vong on the other hand FEEL star-trekky. A cheesy, all powerful race from outside the galaxy.... what AGAIN? What i liked about the SW universe was the way it looked REAL, unlike many other sci-fi shows where everything was supposed to be HIGH-TECH, but ended up looking dated almost immediately.

SW had everything looking beat up and used, had complex groupings of characters and races (rather than the usual, star trek, one race against another). SO to sum up:

Bucket of bolts starships: Star wars
Midichlorians: Not Starwars
Empire and selfish humans: Star Wars
Borg Clones: Not Star Wars
DF & JK: Star Wars
JO: still starwars but going a bit ST and Quake
A game with Vong: Generic Sci-fi

Yeah, the Vong just don't have the Star Wars feel.

Other stories/series have come up against the same problem of stagnation in storylines and have found ways to bring in the big badasses from beyond, but they've done so much more successfully than the Vong storyline.

In Star Trek, after the Klingons and Romulans got boring, they needed to bring in new badguys and the Borg did an admirable job. The Borg fit well into the Star Trek universe because it's all just your basic sci-fi and throwing in a new alien race is pretty easily acceptable as long as it doesn't somehow conflict with existing information in the universe. (IE: all of a sudden they're fighting blue-skinned clingons who came from planet Icicle 5 or something and were cousins of the Klingons or something -- that wouldn't work).

In Battletech, the old house vs. house storylines got old, so they brought in the Clans. But the Clans were using the same underlying technology (IE: battlemechs) just higher powered versions of it. And they were the same race and such, just more powerful humans who'd lived under a different system. It fit and it made sense.

Bringing the Vong into the SW universe would be like having the new bad guys in Battletech be a race of super powerful psychic Space Elves who exist partially in our dimension and partially outside of it at the same time, and against whom regular weapons don't work. And who also don't use Battlemechs or any of the existing weapons in the universe. It's the kind of thing that makes you take a step back and say "What the hell? Where is this coming from??" It's the kind of thing that makes you sing the "one of these things is not like the other" song from Sesame Street. :)

Aside from all that, I don't think that including the Vong in a game would work all that well. I mean, how would you do it? Some have suggested having them as a level boss, which, in and of itself is a cool idea, but would be really hard to fit into a storyline from what I've heard about 'em. As a level boss for only one level, how would you explain it? We happened to capture/ally ourselves with the only Vong in this sector so far and he's the boss of this particular operation? How would you fight them in an interesting fashion? As has been pointed out, offensive force powers are useless. Your lightsabre would be about as useful as the sabre was in 1.04 (and we all know how much fun THAT was...). Aside from Rage, Speed, and Jump, darksiders would be at a SERIOUS disadvantage against a Vong opponent. If you included them, you'd either have to weaken them to the point where they're not that menacing, or you'd have to come up with some contrived story as to why they're only present as level bosses, and that would get old pretty quickly (not to mention it'd likely piss off the hardcore NJO fans). There's just no way to really do this effectively from a game design stance, I don't think.

One thing I'm impressed with, though are the plethora of pop culture references in this thread. Harry Potter AND Bruce Lee all in one thread! :D LOL

P.S. "Do you know how much a plethora is, Jefe?"

This thread should be moved, closed, deleted, or all three.

Originally posted by Emon
This thread should be moved, closed, deleted, or all three.

I don't think it should be closed, as there is a lively (if completely non-JA) discussion going on.

I don't think it should be deleted as we are just bound to repeat it anyway ...

HOWEVER, I do wish a MOD could dump it to the swamp ...

Mike