Would you rather have JA set in the golden ages of the republic where Jedi and Sith were numbered in thousands?
For those who consider the theme alot I think it would justify the presence of a sith threat much better. JK did a better job regarding storyline by only having 7 dark lords at the expense of having fewer saber duels in SP. JO's reborn...well what can I say... dueling wise they were fun...storywise... they didnt convince me.
True jedi vs true sith... that would sound much better. Dont you think?
I have no gripes with JA being set in the new republic time... the time near the movies seems too limited while in the golden ages one could come up with a totally new storyline without people find it weird how so many sith or dark jedi and jedi survived vader and palpatine.
Regardless of what anyone may think about luke founding the yavin academy and the batch of jedi being born... I just think better stories would come up in the golden ages.
This isn't a critic on JA but instead a thread where i wanted to think about how JA would be if it was set in the golden ages.
Cheers.
If you want a game like that, I'd suggest Knights of the Old Republic. There, I've said it, it's done. Now to continue on...
For those who consider the theme alot I think it would justify the presence of a sith threat much better. JK did a better job regarding storyline by only having 7 dark lords at the expense of having fewer saber duels in SP. JO's reborn...well what can I say... dueling wise they were fun...storywise... they didnt convince me.
I personally would disagree with the Reborn. At first, I have to admit that I was fairly skeptic about having an army of Dark Jedi in the New Republic era. I was afraid that they'd go with a cult that no one had sensed before-gimmick. However, by utilising an aspect of Kyle's past, the Valley of the Jedi, they gave a very nice excuse why you would have various lightsaber duels. Jerec was powerhungry, he wanted all the power of the Valley for himself. Desann was less powerhungry, and perhaps even somewhat smarter... instead of taking all the power to himself, he divided this power to some of his loyal followers which granted them a basic instinct in the Force. As you may have noticed, the Reborn aren't exactly the strongest Force Users that you'll ever come across. I personally found Tavion and Desann, two trained Dark Jedi, to be a greater challenge than these 'artificial' Dark Jedi.The Reborn were a challenge in their own right, but this was more because of their "Cortosis Armor" rather than their skills.
I have no gripes with JA being set in the new republic time... the time near the movies seems too limited while in the golden ages one could come up with a totally new storyline without people find it weird how so many sith or dark jedi and jedi survived vader and palpatine.
To be honest, I am currently as skeptic about this new threat as I was with the Reborn. With the Reborn, they utilised a well-enough explanation as to why there was an army, but this time, I see these "heartless"(they kinda resemble the enemy from Kingdom Hearts) Dark Jedi that I'm almost afraid that we WILL have a cult of Dark Jedi this time... a cult that has been strangely absent all this time. But Raven managed to overcome my skeptical thoughts and give a good explanation as to why we had a batch of Dark Jedi to fight. I certainly hope that they will provide us with a good explanation the second time.
Regardless of what anyone may think about luke founding the yavin academy and the batch of jedi being born... I just think better stories would come up in the golden ages.
Well, better stories would come up in the golden ages perhaps for the Jedi. The NR era still has lotsa room for the non-Jedi folks, if you ask me. And I think that there are still enough stories that can be told in this era with different characters.
This isn't a critic on JA but instead a thread where i wanted to think about how JA would be if it was set in the golden ages.
I think that Knights of the Old Republic would give you a bright idea as to what you should expect. In fact, I would praise if Raven of Lucasarts would develop a game that would have tie-ins with the Knights of the Old Republic universe.
But honestly, it is safer for Lucasarts(I think) to have a game set in a time where there is an established enemy from the movies, namely the Empire and its army of Storm Troopers. Yes, the regular EU-fan would love to fight besides the likes of Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider, but the regular gamer/movie-goer would simply say "eh?" when reading these names.
Originally posted by BloodRiot
Would you rather have JA set in the golden ages of the republic where Jedi and Sith were numbered in thousands?
Why rather - why not have another game? I had always thought it an interesting possibility to have a 'flashback' game, or an actual time-travel of Kyle back to the past. Since JA, and KOTOR, have come along, my thoughts are more along the lines of an 'old Jedi Academy'.
JK did a better job regarding storyline by only having 7 dark lords at the expense of having fewer saber duels in SP.
There I disagree. I love JK - I really do. It was my fave game ever until April 5th 2002 (birthday, when my wife and kids got me Jedi Outcast). However, the whole seven dark Jedi nobody knew about, Rahn being 'among' the light Jedi that survived that nobody knew about, all quite close to the original trilogy timeline, when Yoda and ObiWan spoke of 'you will be the last of the Jedi'. Of course, WTF does Yoda know anyway ;) But I let it go and enjoyed the game.
JO's reborn...well what can I say... dueling wise they were fun...storywise... they didnt convince me.
See, to me it makes more sense that there would be problems with people falling to the dark side during the early days of Luke's Academy. It is fairly well done in the books, and makes some sense to me in the JKII implementation. Dessann is not all-powerful. He is an 'early' darksider, a fairly powerful Jedi, driven to pursue power to avenge past injustice, using dark influences enhanced by the remaining 'power glow' of the valley (no longer infinite power as in JK). He plans galactic domination, and finds easy allies in remnant forces, like Galak bent on power, and easily manipulated pawns he imbues with low-level force sensitivity.
But, regardless, it was much more fun having tons of saber battles.
True jedi vs true sith... that would sound much better. Dont you think?
Sounds cool ... when do we get JK4? :)
Mike
Nicely put Burrie and Mike. I think you two cover it well.
Indeed I have to admit that the cult no one has ever known about gimmick woudl be a bit clichй... and you all make good points.
Maybe I should make it simpler then since my whole point has just been crushed ;p (I'll make you pay later ;p)
I know about KotOR... but I chose not to mention it... I guess it couldn't be kept out once i mention the Golden Age.
I just mentioned this subject cuz I'd luv to play some sort fo part i nthe big saber fights of the old days... the kind of fights we only got a sample at geonosis in ep2. :)
Perhaps even take some part in the defeat of Exar Kun.
That would be sweet.
JK4 (aka Old Jedi Academy as sugested) anyone? ;p
"See, to me it makes more sense that there would be problems with people falling to the dark side during the early days of Luke's Academy."
That makes good sense - and it is perhaps safe to say that not all the crystals and not all the Reborn were captured by the Jedi Academy - so who knows where the story might lead.
I too would like to play a JA type game from the golden ages - anywhere from KOTOR to Ep.I. There is a more established jedi culture to take part in and learn about. I am looking forward to KOTOR - I only wish they would have JA's FPS combat system rather than an RPG one.
Of course, what I would really like is to have a FPS game, based around KOTOR times, where you choose light or dark alignment from the beginning, and the entire power struggle of the game plays out based on your choice. Of course, the f'final duel' would still have the two same people ... being that it is a FPS and all ...
Mike
the reborn was an ok, but not brilliant, way to introduce new saber wielding foes... i think if they had fleshed the story out a bit better (same goes for dessann) it might have worked a lot better.
never had much probelm with the 7 DJs in JK, but that was probably because i loved the game so much... a lot of SW fans moaned about it though. :rolleyes:
it would seem to make a lot of sense to have a game set in the Eps 1-3 era (as ob1 was supposed to be...) as this would have the advantage of a known era and known characters, as well as the freedom to have a lot more force weilding baddies.
I don't like the Ep1-2 era anywhere as near as much as the classic era, but it is a lot less played out in terms of PC games...
The ultimate would be a JK-like game where you play Anakin/vader as he hunts down all the Jedi.... :D
Or I always thought Aurra Sing's background story (ex-jedi, bounty hunter, kills jedi to collect lightsabers) would be a great fit for a game.
Time travel.... probably not a good idea as it would probably turn the setup into even more of a chessy, star-trek like experience than JO did. :(
However, maybe a game set in two eras, with you controling different characters in each (telling parallel, related plots). THat would be cool, as actions of the golden-age character might affect the missions for the "modern" character... and they could go to town with the levels, having you revisit levels that have been totally changed by the passage of time... :cool:
One reason I love the Dark Forces series is because I feel it provides me with the atmosphere of the original trilogy. I like being able to fight the Empire, but at the same time have Jedi elements. I don't mind the Reborn as much as some, and I forgave the little problems because I liked being able to fight against a lightsaber-weilding opponant relatively often. I don't have as much interest is the Old Republic (Although I can't wait for KOTOR), and I would not want the series era to be shifted to that timeframe just to justify giving me more enemies to fight. I think you can come up with a good story that includes Dark Jedi in the New Republic era :)
Originally posted by toms
the reborn was an ok, but not brilliant, way to introduce new saber wielding foes... i think if they had fleshed the story out a bit better (same goes for dessann) it might have worked a lot better.
I agree - I think the plot is pretty good, very good by the seemingly diminished 2002 standards (did the golden age of FPS plots come from 1997 - 2000 with JK, MotS, HL and Deus Ex?). But it is thin in the details in some places. Filling in those details, without changing the game itself, would have made the game more enjoyable and engaging, as I've said since ... last April ...
never had much probelm with the 7 DJs in JK, but that was probably because i loved the game so much... a lot of SW fans moaned about it though. :rolleyes:
Exactly - the game was fun so you went with it. My take on all of the DF series.
Time travel.... probably not a good idea as it would probably turn the setup into even more of a chessy, star-trek like experience than JO did. :(
I know ... I cringe at the time travel thought - unless there were something about being linked to another through the force ... still sounds cheesy :rolleyes: Anyway, I didn't find JO 'trekkie', not in any negative sense. I actually found it quite Star-wars-y, melding with the few books in the Jedi Academy and other series I've read.
And I agree with Prime. The basis of Jedi Outcast is much more plausible in the context of the post-RotJ galaxy, as new force users coming of age would have to chart their own course, and there would certainly be dark influences out there.
Bottom line - give me my freakin' lightsaber, construct a reasonable story in *any* timeline, and let me get to killin' ;)
Mike
I tend to agree with Prime here. I like the fact that the DF series is set in\after the original trilogy. With all the other SW games coming out that revolve around the prequels and the pre-prequel eras, it's nice to have at least one series going with the original timeline and EU associated with that age. I tend to think JK games are going to be the only ones doing so for the near future, though I could be wrong.
That said, however, I think Mike said it best.
Originally posted by txa1265
Bottom line - give me my freakin' lightsaber, construct a reasonable story in *any* timeline, and let me get to killin'
Originally posted by txa1265
Bottom line - give me my freakin' lightsaber, construct a reasonable story in *any* timeline, and let me get to killin' ;) Well, when you put it that way... :D
Just a question for all the more EU instructed than I am... what big dark siders are there after ROTJ besides the ones in the JK series and palpatine... and how long will it take before the vong make their appearance?
Anyone fancy kicking some Vong butts?
:D
Pffft, a few note-worthy Dark Siders you ask... from the top of my head...
Kueller - New Rebellion
Brakiss - New Rebellion, Young Jedi Knights series
Barkiss' Dark Jedi pupils - Young Jedi Knight series
Hethrir - Crystal Star
Joruus C'baoth - Thrawn Trilogy
Nightsisters - Courtship of Princess Leia and various other appearances
Sedriss and the Emperor's personal cadre - Dark Empire 2
Mara Jade, from a point of view - Dozen of appearances
Kam Solusar, although he was redeemed by Luke - First appearance Dark Empire 2
And I'm certain that I've missed a few dozen... as for when the Vong will attack, I can't quite remember when Jedi Academy will start, but I believe that it's about 8-10 years away from the Vong invasion.
It's nice to see that, instead of a 'Jedi Purge', we had a 'purge of movie Jedi' and that the 'only two there are, master and apprentice', we have dozens of dark siders running around, waiting their turn to take over the galaxy and not going after each other as is the basis of the whole sith master/apprentice thing ... :rolleyes:
... that is why I have a problem with so much EU - makes for good reading, but not a very good singular philosphy and structure. Either there was a Jedi purge or not (with ObiWan and Yoda having done something speacial to conceal themselves), and there were either two major dark-siders around RotJ timeline or not.
Sorry ...
Mike
Was there was a Jedi Purge the thing is that even though it was the choosen one hunting them down he still wasnt all knowing. So a handful of Jedi did servive the Purge, most went into exile and waited for the Force to summon them and I believe that a small number (around 1-4) actually had began some of the earlier resistance groups against the Empire and Vader after the Purge but those Jedi dissapeared.
Summary : It was a Purge its just that Vader couldnt find and kill all the Jedi because some where able to go into hiding like Obi Wan and Yoda.
The Sith and darksiders or Dark Jedi are slightly different. The sith are cult of dark Jedi and followed their Orders rules, however darksider users and Dark Jedi have no rules as they govern themselves. At the time of Epi 1 - 6 there were darksiders running around however if they made themselves noticed Vader was sent to deal with them. But I assume you knew that :)
In that case the seven dark jedi from JK are not all that impossible or unlikely if you take most of the EU into account.
But keeping it stricktly JA now... maybe original characters would be a wiser choice...there's enough contradiction in the EU as it is.
Maybe a rogue group from the academy joins a more powerful darksider or something... maybe something like a sith academy on a remote place like the temple in dromund kaas... it could have a final battle between academies...
I dunno... sometimes it's hard to come up with good ideas that dont conflict with the events in the same timeline...
If the storyline is good and the characters have depth and are interesting... JA will be a SP hit. I'm a sucker for a good storyline. :D
Originally posted by Lord Siraious
Was there was a Jedi Purge the thing is that even though it was the choosen one hunting them down he still wasnt all knowing. So a handful of Jedi did servive the Purge, most went into exile and waited for the Force to summon them and I believe that a small number (around 1-4) actually had began some of the earlier resistance groups against the Empire and Vader after the Purge but those Jedi dissapeared.
Summary : It was a Purge its just that Vader couldnt find and kill all the Jedi because some where able to go into hiding like Obi Wan and Yoda.
The Sith and darksiders or Dark Jedi are slightly different. The sith are cult of dark Jedi and followed their Orders rules, however darksider users and Dark Jedi have no rules as they govern themselves. At the time of Epi 1 - 6 there were darksiders running around however if they made themselves noticed Vader was sent to deal with them. But I assume you knew that :)
I get all that, but to me it seems a bit of revisionist history to allow interesting, conflicted stories using original trilogy characters in new post-RotJ stories. I suppose we might find out more in EpIII, but I doubt it. There were enough little things in the original trilogy to point to Luke being the last Jedi remaining.
Not that there weren't new force-sensitives born all the time, but ones that just happened to know how to train themselves, figure out how to construct lightsabers and so on ...
But that is just my inability to simultaneously engage the SW film world and 'suspend disbelief' to appreciate many of the books.
That is actually what I like in JA - it makes no presumption of very powerful Dark Jedi pre-existing the fall of the empire. The fall of Dessann to the dark side was more natural - like Kam falling under Exar Kun's influence (although I hated how that series made Luke seem so wimpy). That is why I think the new republic is rich for stories - we know that 'balance' in the force has to allow for dark and light jedi to exist.
Mike
I sort of look at like Lucas does. The movies are canon and they are an entity in and of themselves. The EU stories are a parallel universe, which is seperate and doesn't intrude on what has happened in the movies, but are based on those events. In the movies, there were only two Dark jedi/Sith at the end, and the Emperor was killed by Vader, and so on. In the EU, which Dark Forces is apart of, there were force users under the control of Palpatine that were not Sith, but were under his control. I don't really have a problem with most of the EU, because I view it as a world unto itself, decended from the movies.
In my view, having 7 dark jedi to fight is okay, because JK is a part of that parallel universe. :)
Originally posted by Prime
I sort of look at like Lucas does. The movies are canon and they are an entity in and of themselves. The EU stories are a parallel universe, which is seperate and doesn't intrude on what has happened in the movies, but are based on those events. In the movies, there were only two Dark jedi/Sith at the end, and the Emperor was killed by Vader, and so on. In the EU, which Dark Forces is apart of, there were force users under the control of Palpatine that were not Sith, but were under his control. I don't really have a problem with most of the EU, because I view it as a world unto itself, decended from the movies.
In my view, having 7 dark jedi to fight is okay, because JK is a part of that parallel universe. :)
Very well explained - well enough to get through my thick (and old and stubborn) skull.
Personally, I play the games truly as that parallel universe. If you try too hard to be faithful, you end up with ... The Phantom Menace game (ouch, my neck hurts!)
Mike
Originally posted by txa1265
Personally, I play the games truly as that parallel universe. If you try too hard to be faithful, you end up with ... The Phantom Menace game (ouch, my neck hurts!)
me too. seems the best way to look at it. :)
i figure that, Warhammer psyker style, without the jedi academy around to find young jedi and train them it is quite likely that a number of jedi grew up after the purge and had to find their own way.... and therefore quite likely that a lot of them fell to the darkside in the process, without the guidance of older, wiser jedi.
A lot would have kept their heads down as well, at least until the empire fell. Rahn was the only jedi i didn't get, as he seemed to be a fully trained jedi who poped up from nowhere.
But as you said, i went with it because the game ruled.
Has there been a good E1-3 era game on the pc? in fact, has there been one at all? starfighter i guess...
Originally posted by toms
Has there been a good E1-3 era game on the pc? in fact, has there been one at all? starfighter i guess...
Looking at Gamerankings - StarFighter (81%) & Jedi Starfighter (85%)for PS2 both got >80%. That's as good as it gets ... it is a sad thing when you like I demo more than the real game, as was the case with me and Episode 1 Racer ... I had fun with the demo with my kids, then got the game cheap on ebay (Mac and PC versions) ... they're both still in a box somewhere from when we got new office furniture ...
[back at gameranking, looking at reviews for The Phantom Menace game ... amazing the variety ... this is why reviews are like opinions, which are like ... ]
Mike
The EU stories are a parallel universe, which is seperate and doesn't intrude on what has happened in the movies, but are based on those events.
We just did an SW marathon, and frankly I think episode 4-6 are in a parallel universe to ep.1-2 as well. :p
The way I look at it, good EU doesn't go against anything put forth in the movies. Great EU doesn't go against the movies or other (good) EU. The rest is all not good.
Bloodriot sez:
I dunno... sometimes it's hard to come up with good ideas that dont conflict with the events in the same timeline...
I find quite the opposite. It would be easy to write a SW story that didn't conflict with the movies: use all new characters, etc. The preoblem with that is some of the familiarity would be lost, as most people already understand Luke Skywalker, for example. The trick is using those characters wisely and staying true to the films. The reason that, for example, JO didn't have a great storyline is that they tried to make it accesible to casual SW enthusiasts, by adding Cameos by guys like Lando and Luke, and using familiar environments.
Anyway, the next DF should not take place in the prequel era. Maybe another franchise could, but not DF, it wouldn't make sense. To that end, JA barely counts as a DF game at all, as the DF series is synonomous with Kyle Katarn, in my opinion.
I agree, at least in part, with the guy above. The Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series is based on, or at least prominently features Kyle Katarn. I don't think we should see a Jedi Knight game set in that time period, unless it ties in to Kyles storyline in some way.
I'd be all for a similar type of game set in that era though.
well... the basis of the discussion would be for a JA like FPS game... the same character/storyline/gameplay characteristics but set in the golden ages.
I also agree that the JK series should always be related to Katarn in some way.
Maybe i just didn't clarify my initial post enough... for that... mea culpa... but JA seems to gather enough potential and possibilities to make a good storyline in the golden ages... maybe a total convertion or something.
I'd probably be a part of a team that wanted to build a MOD SP storyline in JA in that era.
It's not that i dont like the post ROTJ timeline... I'd just kill for a sample of the big jedi vs sith battles in the good ol' days ;p
Something in the likes of the Jedis at geonosis in ep2...except fighting sith instead of the geonoseans and trade federation droids.
:)
Cheers
Originally posted by toms
However, maybe a game set in two eras, with you controling different characters in each (telling parallel, related plots). THat would be cool, as actions of the golden-age character might affect the missions for the "modern" character... and they could go to town with the levels, having you revisit levels that have been totally changed by the passage of time... :cool:
The ultimate would be a JK-like game where you play Anakin/vader as he hunts down all the Jedi....
You know...we must be on the same wavelength or something, because I had been thinking exactly the same kinds of things. So I really like your ideas, and I think they have a wealth of potential. A game along these lines would fit well in the current series of games, without detracting too much from the current timelines. :)
As for the other points raised about setting a game in the 'Golden Age'...well, I think the main problem until now has been that there are only some EU stories to go on. When DF and JK came out, we already had a very good idea of the Star Wars universe and what it entailed in that timeline, because we'd seen the movies, and so had something solid to build on, something to use as a solid reference key.
That isn't really true of the 'Golden Era', i.e, 4000 years in the past. Yes, we have the 'Tales Of The Jedi' series, but I imagine nowhere near as many people have taken the time to read those stories as the number that has gone to watch the movies.
So in this context, I think Knights Of The Old Republic is actually immensely important as a showcase for that era, defining some of the key locations, the abilities of the Jedi and the Sith, etc. Although the game will have it's own story, I am assuming there is some tie-in to the existing EU material, and that the game will 'set the stage' for that period of the SW universe. In a way, this game could be as important for this period of the timeline as the original movies were for the classic timeline.
My point is this...once KOTOR is released, and has been played, it should provide a good context for those players regarding the key players of the time, the key events and locations of the time. It would then seem more viable to me to follow up with other games set in the same period, but for different genres, including FPS games in the same style as JA. In those terms, it would be extremely important to provide solid links between the EU, KOTOR and any other game set in that period. That timeline needs to build up a solid context on which other games (and other media) can build and expand, just as most Star Wars games until recent years built on the Original SW Trilogy, and newer SW games are building on the Prequel era. If the Prequel games had been made without the movies as a context, for example, would they have been half as popular?
So in my view, Lucasarts have actually made the best possible choice for a first game set in this period. KOTOR is an RPG, and as we all know, RPG's carry a lot of minute detail and epic storylines (usually). It is an ideal showcase for the period, not just in terms of the story, but how people [/i]lived[/i] during those times. As soon as this context has been established, it should be easier to build other games onto it, and expand it.
I also agree with JediLurker that we need a series of games that continues in the Classic timeline. Other recent SW game announcements are more and more building on the Prequel era, which is fine. But the OT timeline still needs to be continued, and I would hate to see it abandoned any time in the future in favour of the Prequels alone.
I think there is room for all 3 current timelines, the 'Golden Era', the Prequels, and the Classics. And there is really no reason to be constricted only to these timelines, either. With the wealth of EU material that exists, the 'history' of this strange fictional universe is growing all the time, and so it's scope is frankly limitless.
yeah... i was looking at it from a JA point of view, not a DF series one. I defnately think that the Ep 1-3 era is ripe for a decent FPS on the PC/xbox... although i guess they might be waitng until they have Ep3 out of the way so they have less risk of conflicting with it.
as for the Katarn/DF link... i have a sneaky suspicion that they have run out of options there... they can't really do another one, (10 years later, again :D ) with kyle learning stuff AGAIN. might be why they decided to go for JA instead.
I still think Evil Kyle or Mara :p
That's the whole thing, isn't it ... don't think about it from the DF/Kyle perspective, think about it from the 'being with a lightsaber and force powers' perspective.
I agree that there are rich possibilities in all three areas ... and beyond. Some here don't think much of the prequels - personally I like AOTC as much as, if not more than, TESB (although TPM is at the bottom of my list). I certainly think there is interesting stuff to be done in that era. I also think the era they are exploring - the post-RotJ ers, has more to yield. The 'Golden Era', as StormHammer says, will be opened wide with KOTOR, and can be used as a fertile launch grounds. And, of course, there is the whole NJO era that is untouched.
As for Kyle ... I don't know how they can give him another 'fresh start', which was one of my concerns last year before we had any inklings of JA.
Mike
I think Kyle will follow the Ben Kenobi role now... he has learned to master his powers to a greater extent than before thus making him not fit for a player character cuz he's at a higher stage and therefore slower to rise and too powerful for a startup character.
A starting character should be a relatively unexperienced padawan. It grants greater speed in advancement since he's starting low... and the more basic stuff is easier to pickup than the master stuff.
So basically the player character should be something in the likes of Luke in ESB while Kyle should be something like Obi wan in Ep2.
And if the series goes on we may even see Kyle more like Qui-Gon or Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi.
It's not exactly something unprecedented in SW...specially with the prequels...we saw how the same characters had a totally diferent impact on the story and the ones who are the main characters, sometimes play other secondary roles of similar importance.