The quotations marks are just for you Spider Al :D

We'll have 3 different saber combinations: Single saber, two bladed saber and two sabers. With every saber style we got 3 "substyles" >> fast, medium and strong. (blue/yellow/red -sort of thing)

The big question is: how should all this be balanced? Here's how I think the sabers should be from a realistic POW

(By "good" attack I mean that it gets past defences. By "weak" I mean doing less damage/hit)

Double bladed saber
Good but weak offense. Good defence against sabers, but poor defense against blasters. (It should be quite difficult to block shots that come straight towards you)

Two Sabers
*Excellent but weak attack. Poor defence against a saber. (try blocking a powerful blow with only one hand)
* Excellent defence against blasters. (Blocking a blaster shot does not require much physical force)

Single saber
* Medium but powerful offense. Medium defence against sabers.
* Medium defence against blaster shots.

(to be continued)

...and that just about covers it. You took the words out of my mouth, Solar. The staff should have little jabbing and stabbing moves that do little damage, like Darth maul used in TPM. The dual sabers should have lots of spinning moves and twirls, like Anakin used in ATC. The single saber should retain its cool stances, blue like Obi, red like Vader, but I think that yellow could benefit from some new animations. Other than that, your ideas are 100% parallel to mine. Creepy...

I would rather see the double and the staff saber to do the most dmg, now they wont be used that much and it will be turned back to JO, and thats not the game i expect

especially the staff saber should be the one with the most dmg

Actually, two sabers would have a slightly better defensive application in both parrying blows as well as using both sabers to block.

EDIT: Wait, can't mention defending with reverse grasping, there's a chance your saber could go straight down your elbow. :eek:

ahem!!!

umm PrimoSidone??

the double bladed sabre would have by far the LEAST offense!!!
if you had a brain you'd realise that a double blade would be VERY restrictive you cannot slash very well and cannot perform long swings as you would cut urself in half (lol how funny would it be if maul did that lmao)

however you would have very good defense and beable to guard 2 sides at once

but it would be weaker and your swinging strength would be very little

thats very good luc solar, thats exactly what they should do, as that would be fair and stop servers being "TOTALLY" filled with sad wannabe darth mauls (lol)

i think the single sabre would be the strongest attacking but the duel sabres would be very fast attacking. the sabrelance would be very hard to hit as it would have good defense, but weak for attacking (i think most of its attacks should involve spins)

Will saber stances cost points? IMO the system in JO was pretty silly. If you have to pay 8 points to get Strong stance then strong stance should be clearly better than Medium or Fast.

Think about NF saber only games - Do we really need this with all the different kind of sabers? It's obvious that everyone will have all stances and if Strong stance costs more it must be better, right? So everyone will use only one stance making the weaker stances obsolete.

On the other hand - if Raven strives for balancing the 3 stances (as in 'making them all useful') then why would Strong cost 8 times as much as Fast? Makes no sense.

To sum it up: all stances should be available for free.

i agree with most of what your saying

i think that stances should be payed for in points but as you said they should be WORTH the points

tho i think they should make all players in mp restricted to a standard sabre personally, coz its just gonna end up with all the sabre types being nerked to oblivion, and i don't like the fact that the most common and practical (single standard sabre) will be the least used :(

however i think the lunge should have been put under the strong style..... would have made it much better

Reading the latest news on TFN, I have to say that I think the devs have just thrown in more stuff to "make it look cool". I really hope this isn't the case.

Why do people try to defend their ideas using some kind of "real-life" logic. The game should be balanced so that it is a balanced and fun experience - not because it would be "closer" to "reality." I think Luc Solar makes some good suggestions, but not because it makes "sense," but because it will probably make a more balanced and therefore a better game. I assume that most of this talk has to do with MP and not SP - where people aren't as worried about balance.

It strikes me that JKII balance seemed to be based on the flight sim model - fast fighters but small guns vs. slow bombers with torpedos. It worked and made the game challenging, but it is hardly related to how one really fights with swords.

Personally I would love to see them make a Saber style that could be (Depending on the style selected) a double bladed saber, then change the style and it would be a single bladed like in phantom menace (Tatooine scene). Also a style when the saber could be twisted and become dual blades. No that would be cool be cause the player could have the diversity of the sabers on the fly so that the strategy could be formulated based on the situation.

i doubt anyone will agree with me, but it thikn you should be limited to 2 saber styles (pick any two). It would make switching betweens styles a lot easier (i button to switch, rather than cycle).

oh, and i agree with most of the balancing issues mentioned above.

Originally posted by toms
i doubt anyone will agree with me, but it thikn you should be limited to 2 saber styles (pick any two). It would make switching betweens styles a lot easier (i button to switch, rather than cycle).

oh, and i agree with most of the balancing issues mentioned above.

Hmm yeah it makes switching easier, but I think I'm going to miss the other style too quite a lot :) It would force players to develop their own style, which is a good thing imo :)

I'm going to out on a limb here and say that I'll want the 3 saber arming combinations to be noticabley different than anything Raven eventually puts out after all their patches.

That's where my money would go if we were placing bets.

It would be neat if there was a single saber, single handed style.
The advantage would be that you could use force while fighting. No grip of course, no lightning, but basics, like push and pull. So mid swing someone does a DFA against you, you could push him back.
It would have lower damage, and lower blocking as disadvantages, I think that would be very cool as a single saber style.

I like the idea of having only two styles so you don't have to cycle through too many, but instead of limiting, maybe they could make a menu where you can choose which ones you can cycle through?

I think that in one way or another..the 3 saber types MUST be balanced... I mean... I can't force anything on other online players.. but I find it better when I enter a server and I see (aprox.) 1/3 of the players with single, another 1/3 with 2 sabers and the rest with double bladed sabers... furthermore... between the saber types as well as same saber saber types... i'd like to see diferent models with diferent styles of fighting moves and techniques.

But ok... should some features be only aethetical or should they be actually diferent? What should count as gameplay pros vs cons and what should just be eye candy and not affect gameplay?

It is my belief that the sabertypes should be both.. aethetica lsi impossible not to be... some of us prefer the single saber while other prefer the other 2 for various reasons... but the type of handling will invariably be diferent if you face it realistically in full or at least partially.

The stances however pose a more delicate question in my opinion. I'd like the saber stances to simply pick the type of moves... like A for simple and practical fighting as opposed to B that is more flashy maybe to confuse the opponent or something.
Well this is cool... however it still calls for some advantages vs disadvantages or it will be nothing more that a cheery on top of the ice cream... but if it does influence gameplay... what if i like the visual aspect of stance X but i prefer the pros and cons of stance Y???

So the best i can think of (not exactly realistic but gameplay vs aethetic oriented) you'd have 4 steps in configuring your saber style:

1: Saber Type
2: Allocate points between saber offense, saber defense and force use (this would emulate the time spent training each)
3: Saber Stance/s (only affects the fighting style in visual terms... saber efficiency is regulated in the previous step. Much liek customizing a character's appearance...you'd pick the available moves using a pre-generated combo list or you'd customize your own.)
4: Saber Hilt and colors.

So the effect of JO's stances would be configured in step 2... the type of fighting... you'd pick stuff like speed vs strength, offense vs defense. So whatever youdont like... make it so you like it. And the JA stances would be in fact reduced to aesthetic preference and nothing more.

Well In JO this would be unthinkable to the player... but since people are gonna spend some time choosing the cooler look... they might as well could choose the cooler moves and cooler saber.

Also... no one could blame Raven for unbalanced gameplay... if you think it's unbalanced.. go check your badlyconfigured fighter.

the important thing is that every pro hasa con so there's no actual uber config... like paper, rock, scissors... there's alwaysone that breaks through the other.

And the saber types would have their own pros and cons that would act as modifiers for the stats configured in step2.

Well many mayclaim it's too complex to be effective... i can say that i admit it may be... but i would surelly loose time learning my way through this... anyway it doesnt matter cuz the game wont be liek this and I just voiced my opinion.

Cheers to you all.

I believe that the lightstaff SHOULD have the least offense, with extremely good defense capabilities ( though terrible against blasters). The lightstaff doesn't seem like it could be positioned for well rehearsed , well placed attacks. But at the same time I feel as if the lightstaff should also have the ability to be the second best offensive weapon. ( im sorry if anyone has repeated any of this)


Since there are two sides of the blade, connecting with combos and such would seemingly present much more damage than the single bladed lightsaber, while these probably will not be constent blows, they still should be able to comit more blows than the single bladed saber. Take a look at the trailer, a female woman clearly brings the lightstaff out with a one handed holding position ( I heard they couldn't use certain force powers with the lightstaff because of issues with needing two hands...if this is true then perhaps certain stances will be able to use certain force powers for the staff), and she strikes the vent in a quick manner, in such a way that both sides hit the vent at different times, and at the same time, in one move ( perhaps two, but the move is so fluently synchronized and quick that if it is a possible combo, then it should prove to be an extremely versible weapon)! Clearly this is not a weak offensive weapon! Then again, later on we see yet another move with the lightstaff, a jedi twirls the blade over his head, not only blocking a bowcaster bolt in the process, but having extremely great range, and while he blocks the bolts he also takes down a weequay with ease. You can also see a jedi hopping from above and blocking a few bolts off from an enemy with the staff. Not to mention the ability to kick in any direction, which only adds to the carnage ( I expect to see many newbs button smashing the lightstaff, while the 'leets' use the blade and slam home with the weapon everytime in close quarter combat.

Just these few pieces of footage we can see that the lightstaff can't be the worst offensive weapon, if the single bladed lightsaber is better, then I would have to see Yoda like combat from it :P

Now, to twin blades. I believe it should have perhaps the best defense and offensive combat ( though slightly harder to use than the lightstaff, with apparently shorter range and short, twirly moves). But at the same time it also depends on how the defense is applied, it will more than likely not have terribly better defense than the single bladed lightsaber, but at least significantly so. You can see in the trailer, a twilek spinning one blade in front of her, missing a foe, and the opposite blade stabbing into an enemy positioned behind her :eek: . Judging by the footage, the twin blades seem to be extremely fast, overwhelming weapons. Not meant to be used SLOWLY, which I think will exclude any form of red style for it ( Though I don't believe there will be a red style for the lightstaff either). In the footage, a male human is twisting around his blades so quickly it puts the single bladed blue style to shame, not to mention it is more consistent in actually slamming home. I believe the twin sabers will be harder to master than the single bladed sabers.
Defense wise, I don't see any 'double blocking', meaning I don't see someone blocking a hit with one saber and blocking another with the other blade. Though you can instantly see an opponent blocking attacks with the same animation, the opponent crossing his blades together and blocking the hit in an X like formation. Though I can't comment much more about that, you also saw a picture with a yellow Twi-lek blocking bolts with the blades in the cross type block as well, I hope thats not the only way blocking is done in JA.

Now on to single bladed lightsaber. What can be said? It will probably be the most accurate weapon, with medium ranks in defense and offense. I think I saw a new style as well, though I could be wrong. A jedi has a yellow lightsaber, holding it out in the lightstaff like stance, and he swings it across and then twirls it above his head. Could be more tricky style for the single blade. Who knows.

This is how I rank things.

Offensive Capability

1. Twinsabers ( by a hair due to accuracy with moves, though this could be argued due to the moves we've seen done with the lightstaff

2. Lightstaff

3. Single Blade

Defense

1. Lightsaber
2. Twin Saber
3. Lightstaff ( Though it has great offensive attacks, which could be used defensively as seen, I really don't think we'll be seeing parrys and blocks that were done by Maul :P. It could, but I don't think we'll see someone blocking a hit from one end, and blocking a hit from another end with an animation created exactly for that situation. Though could you block hits from two different places? Probably. That goes for twin sabers as well.

Ah well, I probably contradicted myself a few times in there, but oh well. That's my opinion on lightsaber combat.

In JO you could use stuff like force push, and force lightning while using a one saber, but not at the same time as attacking. They're making the lightstaff, dual sabers, and one saber balanced with force powers and normal attack and defence power.

I doub't that anything like any of this will be in the game. I've convinced myself that the game will, in fact, be lame. Yes, I live a sad existence, and YES the glass is half empty. On the slightly less dim side, there are some great ideas here, and maybe after JA is released a nice mod can be made for it to take some of this stuff into account.

at least you will be presently suprised if it turns out to be good, whereas i was unpleasently disappointed with JO after i convinced myself it would be awesome. :D

Yup I agree... I just post some ideas to say how I would like... I dint have the slightest hope Raven or LEC will listen. I can't blame them... when I made the fetts I only listened when the comments pointed out errors in the making... and Tyrion was only shown when it was done cuz me and Absath didnt want people to start sugesting stuff while it was in the works... not cuz we didnt care about our potential "buyers" but cuz it would complicate things more than it would help.

Besides.. we modders are so clever and enginious that, as JaledDur pointed, some of the ideas will be taken up by a mod team or another... the modding community did some wonderful stuff with a very user unfriendly software... try to imagine it now that Raven said this time things would be much better regarding the sources and sdk tools :)

However I am concerned about the base stuff since it's the stuff the mods are gonna work upon... as long as balance is good from the start and it's not screwed up with future patches... I'mpretty confidant that there will mods that will please everybody... let's hope that the server search engine will allow us to sort by code as well for us to better find the ones we like.

If Raven released a stance editing tool it would rock. If the stances could be used without a mod it would roxors. If the damage/speed could be regulated to make all stances statistaically equal, plus usable, plus editable, it would roxorors!

by toms in another thread
Saber hit damage should be based more on the hit location than the hit strength... With legs and arm hits causing less damage, then body hits, then head hits.

What hit strength could do is affect the amount of "penetration" the saber causes.
- A "light" hit to the left arm might only cause left arm damage (20%) and then stop.
- A "medium" hit might cross into the next area (left arm damage 20% + left torso damage 25% = 45%)
- A "heavy" (red stance, 2 handed) hit might penetrate 3 areas (left arm 20% + left torso 25% + right torso 25% = 70%

As it is, i think the lighter stance hits are supposed to be like the light touches Count Dooku uses to Obi-wan in Episode 2, but because the saber visually continues to pass into the body, just like the red stances, it makes no sense for them to do less damage.

This shouldn't be too hard to do, as they alreas have hit zones defined from SO


is it good form to quote yourself?
;)

i fink instead of basing the balance of saber combat by its damage/defense, each saber type/style should be balance by its moves and attacks can should be highly distinisgushable from one style to another; instead of just swinging the saber(s) based on the direction key u r pressing, an arcade style input should be used (eg forward ->forward -> attack aka soul calibur, tekken etc). that way the style/type would be much better define by its actual form rather than a simple system of offense vs defense with each style/type sharing pretty much the same moves. for example, the dual sabers would be ideal for fast but weak combos, so its should have fast comboable attacks that other sabers dont have. the saber combat in JO was pretty much flawed in every way so i hope they would make sumfing different this time around, but from those bootleg video of JA, its not looking too promising.....

i really liked babywaxes idea of having the single bladed sabre have single and both handed styles where the single handed style would give it unmatched force usage while slashing.

i think that using one of the 2 alternative sabre types should use up alot of force points because i think that even though there are 3 types, the single sabre should still be the most common. yes i do think the diversity is cool, but i KNOW that if they don't do that i'm just gonna sigh when i see maybe the 1/100th person using single style while the rest of the server is filled with tryhard darth mauls.

this is directed to toms

i think all of your ideas you've stated are great. however i really don't like the idea of having model damage depending on hit location.

yes that would be very cool when using guns, however with a lightsaber its only really one hit anyway which will determine the fight, may it be a slash or stab to the torso which is fatal. a decapitation.. need i say lol, or a stab to a limb (which would be SOOO painful:( ) which would probably cause the jedi to fall down in agony (as we saw with obi1 in EP2). or at worsed a dismembered limb, which would not only get the person out of the battle but cause them to immediately into shock.

so guns, realistic shot damage yes. sabres imho are fine ;)

I havent read all the replys in this post yet.

But I think you should have in mind that the sabers shouldnt counter eachother to much. We dont want sabre switching spam instead of stance switching, do we?

I agree with you Rockstar, single saber should be the strongest as it's easier to hit harder if your using two hands (IRL).
I dont mean it should take more damage, but it should break your opponents defense alot easier than double saber or duel saber.

will you be able to control each saber individually when u have two sabers? i think if would provide better gameplay and make it more difficult to master

I think the main problem with sabers is defending, because there is no certain way you can defend a saber blow, this makes some people spam specials, in a effort to take as many HP as they can if raven can somehow fix that, i think saber combat will be much more skilled.

Originally posted by Rockstar
yes that would be very cool when using guns, however with a lightsaber its only really one hit anyway which will determine the fight, may it be a slash or stab to the torso which is fatal. a decapitation.. need i say lol, or a stab to a limb (which would be SOOO painful:( ) which would probably cause the jedi to fall down in agony (as we saw with obi1 in EP2). or at worsed a dismembered limb, which would not only get the person out of the battle but cause them to immediately into shock.


except that doen't happen. At the moment a red "powerfull" blow cuts straight through someone and they die. Then a blue "light" blow cuts straight through someone and they are fine..... visually it appears that the effect should be the same, but it isn't.

So, assuming that they aren't going to change the blue-red stances or institue one hit kills they need to do something to visually differentiate between the "powerful" blows and the "light" ones.

The only way i can see to do this is to stop lighter blows clipping all the way through the target.

I think the main problem with sabers is defending, because there is no certain way you can defend a saber blow, this makes some people spam specials, in a effort to take as many HP as they can if raven can somehow fix that, i think saber combat will be much more skilled.

yeah.... i think we are all trying to band aid something that can't be fixed... but it is worth a try...:D

Well, the collision detection system that is supposed to be implemented in JA might be able to solve that problem. It could be made so that light hits bounce off after they strike, like when Luke hit Vader in the shoulder. If some kind of "smart" saber system were implemented, it would be a huge boost to the game, I think.

Originally posted by Luc Solar
The quotations marks are just for you Spider Al :D

We'll have 3 different saber combinations: Single saber, two bladed saber and two sabers. With every saber style we got 3 "substyles" >> fast, medium and strong. (blue/yellow/red -sort of thing)

The big question is: how should all this be balanced? Here's how I think the sabers should be from a realistic POW

(By "good" attack I mean that it gets past defences. By "weak" I mean doing less damage/hit)

Double bladed saber
Good but weak offense. Good defence against sabers, but poor defense against blasters. (It should be quite difficult to block shots that come straight towards you)





Two Sabers
*Excellent but weak attack. Poor defence against a saber. (try blocking a powerful blow with only one hand)
* Excellent defence against blasters. (Blocking a blaster shot does not require much physical force)

Single saber
* Medium but powerful offense. Medium defence against sabers.
* Medium defence against blaster shots.

(to be continued)

good idea, except the saber staff should be able to use only one side, so it can gain a medium in blaster blocking

umm blade master

that would be CRAP!! that would just be unfair.

the saber staff they are putting in is actually a genuine saber staff i think. Darth Maul's was infact 2 lightsabers joined together. there was another dark jedi ages before him who had a genuine light staff and i think that is what lucas arts are incorperating

if you want single side so badly just go a single bladed saber

From the looks of it, you actually have 2 sabers joined together in JA. That sith master's name was Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Blademaster_109
good idea, except the saber staff should be able to use only one side, so it can gain a medium in blaster blocking I doubt they will do this, simply because of gameplay reasons. If you have a double-bladed lightsaber that can also be used as a single blade, this will be inherently more powerful that the regular single blade.

Raven has stated that the lightstaff that can be split into two singles (like in the video) will no longer be included in JA. They felt that this would make it so that no one would pick the two single blades. I suspect they will use this same reasoning regarding the lightstaff with one blade.

That's some good news! :o Whew!

I think that the lightsabers should have an increased effectiveness against guns in MP. It seems to me that if I put my defense up to level 3, I can still deflect only a small minority of the shots coming at me. Plus, the guns do a good deal more damage in a shorter amount of time than the sabers. This should be remedied, in my opinion, so that the sabers are more intimidating in team based games.

Anyway, the most important thing is that all 3 saber types have some distinction, and that the distinction makes sense and is balanced.

Only using one side of the lightstaff? Now I don't want to be rude, but that would just be dumb. Not only for balancing reasons, but also, who wants to use a lightstaff wit only one side?

2 seconds after JA is released, I bet we'll have a mod that gives you a double bladed saber that can be split into two sabers or used as a single saber with all the benefits of each fighting style. :( :swear:

i think your right solar :( .....

im not looking foward to that, tho i think its inebitable.

i don't know why people would want a double bladed saber that can use one side. i don't mean to be critical, but if you want one side then use the single blade :)

also, as a response to:

I think that the lightsabers should have an increased effectiveness against guns in MP. It seems to me that if I put my defense up to level 3, I can still deflect only a small minority of the shots coming at me. Plus, the guns do a good deal more damage in a shorter amount of time than the sabers. This should be remedied, in my opinion, so that the sabers are more intimidating in team based games.

i don't see the problem man. i think that the lightsaber IS already better enough than the guns. i wouldn't want a game where the guns are just useless, as the lightsaber is the norm anyways...

I really don't want to see a single type of saber being used and the rest left behind, i'd much rather see everything equal, or the single saber being used just a bit more.
If that was to be the case then the double saber and staff should be used as much as each other which makes them both less likely but more dangerous because your average joe dosen't know so much about them (unless you play the game alot in which case, it pays off and you deserve to be better against them).

Also, if the staff was just the 2 sabers put together that would cause serious balance issues. Since i've heard that it's not actually going to be like that, then i think it would be 'ok' in sp but a definate no no for mp :)

yeah i wanna see pretty even saber usage, but i also would like to see the single blade being used slightly more if any.
im really glad to hear the rumours that the new saber styles will be at the expense of force powers. i think this is really good and we will actually see some single bladed sabers. 2 things determine why someone chooses something: efficiency and appeal. to most people the duel and double will appeal more. but making the single blade more efficient i think will be great at trying to even it up :)

Originally posted by Solbe M'ko
I think that the lightsabers should have an increased effectiveness against guns in MP. It seems to me that if I put my defense up to level 3, I can still deflect only a small minority of the shots coming at me. If your saber defense is at level 3, you can block every blaster shot that comes at you. They can't make it more effective than it already is. Obviously, you aren't going to be able to block explosives...

I think that a style for each "saber" would be enough, but probably at least single saber will keep the original 3 stances.

I would balance the styles this way:

Single saber:
- Defence ratio: 1.0
- Offence ratio: 1.33
- Speed ratio: 1.0

Dual sabers:
- Defence ratio: 1.0
- Offence ratio: 1.0
- Speed ratio: 1.33

Double bladed saber:
- Defence ratio: 1.33
- Offence ratio: 1.0
- Speed ratio: 1.0

So every saber would have pros and cons.

IIRC, in an interview posted at jk2files.com, it was stated that in fact the lightstaff and two lightsaber styles are stances in themselves. So all the stances are:

blue
yellow
red
two single lightsabers
lightstaff

No one has really talked about range of attack. To me that is a distinct component of the saber balancing that has been ignored so far. I've always found it playes a big part in duels - if I can hit you but you can't hit me, guess who wins. Slower attacks have greater range, but hit harder, so I've successfully stayed out of blue range with red and timed the hit for a win. With blue it's about sneaking in under red's big swing for a quick slash.

It looks like duel sabers will be fast and have a long range - perhaps similar to Tavion's style. I wonder how that'll play into the mix.

I also hope they will introduce a forward thrusting stab. The back stab was okay - but I just think it would be cool to be able to impale some guy in front of you. Then slowly draw the saber from his lifeless body as he slumps to the ground.

yeah maybe not a bad idea

however, when you stab you stick your saber out and your defense is at its lowest possible point. a jedi could forsee it and push the stab to the side and have his choice in which way he would like to leave a nice bloody slash mark accross your torso :)

im not against it, but i do think that if it does fail you should be as good as dead. and also it shouldn't as damn ridiculas as the lunge which can't be blocked at close range up close. if it does do this then it should be very risky with low chance of success

Nemios, i liked your layout.

i think its good the alternate saber styles only have one stance, it will give more reason to go the good ol single blade.

i think its very realistic how the lightstaff can't be thrown (how the hell could you catch it on return? lol)