To be honest, the only thing at the moment that REALLY annoys me is what they did to the Republic Gunship. In my opinion, the Republic should have the Gunship and Jedi Starfighter as their unique units, and just get a different fighter. As for the stats of the Gunship, this is what i think-
-fighter armour
-hitpoints in between fighter and transport
-powerful ground attack (no anti-air) with bonus vs troopers
-speed inbetween fighter and bomber
-be able to carry 2 infantry units
Thoughts?
PS: If there are any guys from the game development team reading this, you did a good job, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE change this.
So no-one here has an opinion about this?
Dude, same here. I really was hoping the gunship would be like the one in the moviem with rockets for air and ground and the powerful green pod laser things for supereffective ground attack but no, they just had to make the Gunship a fighter! Maybe they can put it in a patch.
I certainly think the Gunship could be a lot more interesting. It could be quite simple, too; just give it;
Hitpoints - more than a fighter, less than a transport - perhaps 100?
No shields
An attack - same as a landspeeder vs. air (i.e. weak but functional) and about the same as a Jedi fighter vs. ground - in fact, it would seem more appropriate to have the Gunship fire that blue homing missile thing, since it fires missiles in the film)
Same transport capacity as a transport
Increased cost - more nova than a bomber, plus carbon/food
Think that might work quite nicely.
My opinion is that it should be about 3/4 as good as an air cruiser with 2 different weapons. Those rockets for air assault, and those green beams for ground.
Wouldn't that be cool? Problem is, the AoK engine, and the AoE one before it, has always shied away from dual-attack units. Ensemble was considering doing this sort of thing with the original AoK - the Samurai unit was to have both a bow and a sword attack - but the idea was dropped.
Then again, since something like a fighter has different attack bonuses against ground and air units, the change would surely only be purely cosmetic and not hard to implement.
Well it appears we think alike about the gunship, hopefully Lucasarts is watching and taking notice.
I agree about the gunship having the rockets and no shields, but it should be heavily armoured and have a smaller load than an air transport and only carry troops.
I can't see how they were unable to create it. Mech Destroyers can have troops onboard and they fire, so logicaly it should be possible with Air Units, prehaps it shouldn;t have the missile launchers(or have the Unique ability that they have no Transport Vessels, but both their fighters and bombers can carry 5 troops.
This isnt really a good idea b/c gameplay>realism and it would totally make the republic player to strong and overpowering airwise (Stronger than fighters and can hold units i dont think so).
Sithmaster, that's not entirely true. "Overpowering" is rather a sweeping statement. Transports are already stronger than fighters, considerably stronger. The Gunship's air-to-air attack, as I mentioned, would need to be quite a lot weaker than that of the fighter. It would basically be a less resilient version of the transport, able to hold its own against, say, a single fighter or AA trooper.
One thing that does strike me however is that Gunships would need to either have a very low attack vs. workers, or be a T4 unit like the A-wing. Wouldn't want Gunship rushes, would we... that is the only scenario I can see where the Gunship as suggested might throw the game out of whack.
sithmatser - thats not true. As the post above this one stated, the air-to-air ability of the gunship would be very weak. Besides, compared to say the Rebel Advanced fighter, the gunship would be-
-more expensive
-have a much lower anti-air, but better anti-ground
-slower
-be able to carry 2 troops
-slightly longer to build
-have no shields (but a few more hitpoints)
-become available in tech 4
Originally posted by Darth Windu
-have no shields (but a few more hitpoints)
Well in AotC when Padme falls out Anakin screams "PUT DOWN THE SHEILDS PUT DOWN THE SHEILDS!!!" so if you're going for realism they DID have sheilds...
no he doesn't he says "Take us down, Take us down", if it had shields she wouldn't fell out and Windu wouldn't have been able to block shots in the door way.
It would make a good scenerio box unit (if its only for realism or a cool battle for geonosis scenerio it fits perfectly and you dont need to balance it). However if you think that the republic needs an armed transport (not a new fighter art) for any reason be my guest.
The A-wing was added to differentiate Rebs supperior air from the Naboo and the Republic. The Air cruiser was added to stop turtles on space maps and chepa unit flooders on land ones. Power droids were added to help fowrad builders and drop off points. Why is the gunship nessassary?
Also, the At-St isnt really a mech destroyer, its more like a slower stronger strike mech. So why didn't they make up the art for the Empire's mech destroyer and use the At-St as a unique unit. Because there's no point and they are getting rid of an art that casual players can relate to in favor of something that doesnt exist. And for a casual gamer, the first few minutes of a game decides if its your fav or sits and collects dust.
sithmaster - you are comparing chalk and cheese. The point im making is that the Gunship does have the abilities that im asking for. For example, compare the X-wing to the Gunship, there are huge differences, then compare the AT-ST to the AAT, there really arent any differences.
Of course, if we're going to be sticklers for the movies, then the Confederacy's AA artillery should move faster than any mech or troop...
Kryllith
Darth Windu, you could be onto something...
I think it would be a great unique unit! But I think they should make the gunship the unique unit and use the Jedi Starfighter as the fighter... plus, the fighter upgrade could add the hyperdrive ring instead of making up two variants on the gunship. Great idea... just wish the people at LucasArts would listen.
Anyway, lemme know what you think about the Jedi Starfighter = fighter idea... and as always...
Peace Out...
I think they "dumbed down" the Gunship because it would have been overpowered.
I still wish they would have made it worth creating in the first place. The fighter is nothing compared to what the Gunship should be capable of.
The Republic should get ANOTHER unique air unit to make it even more of a rebel replacement...
...And that republic unit should be strong and armored and have some AA and good anti troop and i suppose why not throw in 25 range just so it can be as strong as in the movies...
...And AT-AT's should be invincible to everything but airspeeders...
...And mechs should be able to walk on troopers and crush them instantly...
...And mechs should be able to walk on water...
...And a lot of other overpowering/unbalancing stuff that I haven't bothered to read yet but I am sure is there...
:rolleyes:
Buit seriously, if they made GB exactly like the movie, the Empire would win, hands down, every time, it would build an indestructible death star and destroy all enemies. And GB wouldn't be too fun with only one civ worth playing.
Also, the At-St isnt really a mech destroyer, its more like a slower stronger strike mech.
Come now Sithmaster, watch the bit in ROTJ where Chewie's AT-ST shoots the other one, then tell me it isn't really a Mech Destroyer :-)
Seriously, you and SimWiz are right - gameplay>"realism", and this is the main reason why it would be unrealistic to expect any change of this sort. I just really like the Gunship... sigh.
Tell you what, accepting that no changes in game balance should be made... what about switching the art for the Republic Fighter/Fast Fighter? That wouldn't hurt... I'm always loath to upgrade my fighters, because I don't like the FU Rep. Fighter as much as the cool-looking Fast Gunship Fighter...
simwiz - you're going a little overboard here, but in one point you are more or less correct. In the movies, the AT-AT's could only be taken down by snowspeeders, so what do the game designers do? Make the snowspeeders really powerful against the AT-AT's. The point about the gunship is that i would like it to be a unique unit for its special abilities, plus it is a unique unit in that there is no other unit in the game that would match its abilities (ie. Destroyer droid, probot, snowspeeder...)
nelapsi - good idea. What i was thinking was keep the Jedi Starfighter as a unique unit, but give it fighter weapons (same air and ground attack, rate of fire) and keep its other abilities (slightly faster, ability to cloak etc) but keep it so that it is more expensive than fighter's and it takes longer to build.
Thanks for the props Darth Windu, but I still think it would be perfectly fine as a regular fighter.
I think it would be a little too unbalancing to give the GR two unique units. I don't think any other race has two (can't think of one right now, but could be wrong) and the GR is so strong already. Plus the ability to cloak is a little far fetched. It couldn't cloak in the movie (aside from hiding in an asteroid crater) so why can it in the game? Just my opinion, though...
Peace Out...
Just a quick point about the movies; Luke seemed to have no problems taking out an AT-AT all by himself... which probably explains why jedi's are good against Assaults :)
It's a moot point, but Rebels have 2 unique units (speeders and A-wings), Confeds have 4 (3 animals and the genosian warriors), GE technically has two since only their Assaults can attack air. I'd say making another unique unit for the republic might be interesting, but I'd also say they should take away something if they did. If the gunship could carry troops, take away their air transports so they can't fly mechs/artillery. Or if this is too harsh (think not being able to fly mechs/artillery around on an asteroids map), then perhaps limit the carrying space of the transports to 2 or 3 units instead of five.
Kryllith
Sorry, I was brain farting... I was only thinking of Fortress created units...
I think thats a little too harsh of a penalty... how about limiting the gunship's abilities... Giving it only anti-ground capability with a strong anti-unit attack but weak against buildings. Something to separate it from the bomber. Speed between a fighter and bomber. Some range, but a sizeable reload time... I don't think its fair to penalize people (like me) who use air transports frequently just because the GR has the gunship. Oh well...
Peace Out...
Either way. I just figured if people were using gunships to send troops (I'd included workers, healers, and jedis in this too) then they wouldn't be using air transports to do so, so why give them the advantage of a troop transport that can attack in addition to the regular transport? Cutting the carrying capacity just serves to offset the fact that the gunships would be carrying units. Limiting the gunship in other ways (like offense) would help too... the sizeable reload time you mentioned would serve well (to this point I'd been thinking they'd attack as fast as the fighters).
Kryllith
The reason I was so adverse to the transport limiting idea was because I use them frequently to drop a sizeable portion of my strike force on the opposite side of the enemy base during an assault. This would severely hamper this strategy for me and everyone else who uses a similar plan, and a no mech moving transport would absolutely destroy the main feature of most of my strategies. So, in short, it would be awfully hard on someone like me who has fallen in love with mechs. However, the slow reload time, lack of anti-air attack, lack of shields, and speed disadvantage against fighters would more than compensate for its ground attack and anti-troop bonus. Just a thought...
Peace Out...
Kryllith, the GE has two UU's, the Dark Trooper and the pointless Probot.
D'Blee, I agree that the fast fighter looks cooler than the advanced one. Also, the AtSt has a strong attack vs the other one because it has a strong attack period. Look what it did to the Ewoks or the Rebel forces.
Darth Windu, AATs are very different. They fit the role of the assault mech because they were slow moving but had very powerful artillery weapons not unlike the ATAT. The MTT was purely for moving droids around. It had minimal weaponry and required AATs to defend it. Also, you have the unit creation system backwards. You're supposed to find a hole in gameplay or in a civ and find something in the Star Wars universe that can fill that gap (or make something up like Lucasarts did quite often
:) :) ). But what your doing is finding a unit in the movie and trying to smash it into gameplay where there is no hole. However, as i said before, it could go into the scenerio box that way you could use it in scenerios and dont need to balance it.
Yeah, limiting the gunship in other ways would work too. I especially think the lack of shields would be good. Course, I wouldn't cut out mech-moving transports completely in any case (cut down the amount they can carry perhaps, but not get rid of them completely). If there were not space maps which required air transports to move units from one chunk of rock to the next, then it might be feasible to remove them completely, but as it is...
Sithmaster: I think probots are generally a pointless unit (that's what scouts are for) but they proved to have some worth to me when I was playing on and island map and discovered they could go over water (guess I should see if they can go over space too...) There's an idea, I should try a TC probot rush on a water (or space if it works) map. Probably not a good idea in a real game since it's better to focus on building workers, but if it works...
Kryllith
sithmaster - in the movies, the AAT and AT-ST have very little, if any difference. But also look at something here, what other unit in the game has the abilities that the gunship is supposed to have? None, thats why it should be a unique unit. Also, look at the fighters of the races, X-wing, N-1, TIE fighter, droid starfighter, gunship. Pick the odd one out. All of the others onlt carry one (or no) person and can fly in space. The gunship carry's troops, has a 4-clone crew and cant fly in space. Also, as the other unique units, the empire has 2, the confeds have 4, the rebels have two, so why cant the Republic have another one? As for the specs, i would like to see the two repbulic unique units with specs like this-
Jedi Starfighter-
-normal fighter weapons
-slightly faster than adv fighter
-keeps unique abilities (ie cloaking)
-more expensive than adv fighter
-significantly slower build time than adv fighter
Gunship-
-speed, hitpoints, range between fighter and bomber
-strong against troops, workers
-moderate against heavies, mechs
-weak against buildings, air, ships
-available in tech 4
-be expensive!!!
-carry two troops (no mechs, heavies etc)
-no shields
-double build time of transport
Doubt that gungan fliers can fly in space or carry people or are even mechanical/have lasers. Guess that makes them the true "odd one". Maybe the gungans should get a UU for their dinos. Oh, wait, they arent in the movies so they should remain the same.:D
Just because things are portrayed in the movies one way, they shouldnt be in the game that way if there is no glaring reason to have them. MTTs, AT-ST, AATs,gungan mounties, AT-TEs, and dwarf and homing spider droids are portrayed differently in movies than they are in the game and are much different than their counterparts. Maybe they all deserve UUs dedicated to them. If you want a special gunship, ask to add it to the scenerio box.
Maybe a select amount of civs should have the Gunship, though I can currently think of three (Imperial Assult Transport. Rebel Corellian Corvette. Trade-Federation Landing craft) minus the Republic. Maybe the Republic should have better upgrades for their Gunships. Can a gunship though, shoot down enemy aircraft? I don't have the game still and I'm savin for it.
Thats a good idea. Ur right, a few other civs hav gunships, of som kind or another.
Still, tho, it would work really nice as a UU.:atat:
People, no other civ has gunships, thats why it would be a REPUBLIC UNIQUE UNIT!!! Also, how would the stats i posted for the Jedi fighter and the gunship unbalance the game?
I still support this idea and i think it could be successfully put into the game as a standard game unit without causing balance issues.
u hav a point, but it would work best as a UU
greyleader - ive been asking for it to be a Unique Unit (UU) all along...
What is the point of the gunship, other than to look at and be like the movies? Do you have a burning desire to use an armed transport in a real game? Does it correct any gameplay problems or make the civ that gets it more popular or diversified? Does it strive to balance the game? Does it make the game more fun or add another level of stradegy?
Didn't think so :p
All it does is make the all ready popular Republic more desireable, make it too close to the Rebels (something Lucasarts has tried had to avoid), and reduce the need for both fighters and air transports. But, to bypass this, you could add this unit to the scenerio box specifically for the Republic (like the ewoks for the Rebels and the Royal guards for the Empire), and have a armed transport to use to your heart's content without having to throw gameplay out the window
1. What is the point of the gunship, other than to look at and be like the movies?
2. Do you have a burning desire to use an armed transport in a real game?
3. Does it correct any gameplay problems or make the civ that gets it more popular or diversified?
4. Does it strive to balance the game?
5. Does it make the game more fun or add another level of stradegy?
sithmaster, in response to your questions, here are my answer's-
1. The point of the gunship would be to provide an assualt transport ability to the republic, rather than the current transport ability (yes, there is a difference). It would also make the republic more unique.
2. Yes, i do.
3. It would not correct gameplay problems, but would not cause them either if done correctly. I beleive that it would also make the republic more diverse, as for popularity thats up to the fans.
4. No, but as i said it wouldnt unbalance it either.
5. Yes and yes. I beleive that it would add many new strategies for the republic, and make them more fun to play with. It would also force the latering of strategy of players fighting against the republic.
"...make it too close to the Rebels" - no it wouldnt. The rebels wouldnt have the gunship, while the republic wouldnt have anything like the A-wing or airspeeder. They would both excel in air, but in very different aspects of it.
"...and reduce the need for both fighters and air transports" - again, no. The gunship would only have a very limited anti-air ability (think airspeeder) and would be slower and longe rto build than an advanced fighter. Also, it would only carry two infantry units, so to transport Mechs, Heavy weapons and workers, you would have to use the air transport. Besides, the air transport would still carry 5 units (compared to the gunships 2).
The Republic Gunship realistically can only carry 10 Clone Troops. The Gunship by no means fits in with the fighters, it serves better as a UU. Sithmaster, why are you opposing the matter anyway? Wouldn't it be nice to have a fleet of Gunships come in and destroy your enemies bases by deploying Clone Troops and using rockets and pod lasers to wipe everything out?
I'd say the gunship should be an armed transport (new class) the Rebel armed transport should then be a YT-1300 (upgrade to modified YT-1300 for a falcon like transport) the Empire could get the gunboat (like in TIE-fighter, X-wing alliance, just because it's quite big for a fighter) can't think of any others so far. All can carry 1 maybe 2 troopers (or jedi). Make some differences in this class like and all are shielded (after seperate upgrade), all take long times to build
Republic
6 turrets, can target each different units, gives 6 targets so far
2 main blasters on the top, can only target 1 unit together, makes 7 targets, slow rate of fire
very slow, still faster than aircruiser
very high hitpoints
Empire
only forward firing blasters
ION cannons (always wanted those in the game) same as blasters, can disable a unit with a single shot after that needs to recharge just like Jedi after conversion, goes faster
just a bit slower then a fighter
very high hitpoints
Rebel
quad laser turret (upgrade for 2) can target 1 enemy each, quite powerfull, fast rate of fire
faster then fighter
high hitpoints
This would also help to create differences in the civs, anyone else some ideas for the rest
Here's my reccomendation for it:
Republic: LAAT (Gunship)
High armor and hitpoints
Can carry 10 infantry
Massively armed (4 pod lasers with independent tracking systems and dual fire rocket launchers for Air-to-Air)
3/4 speed of a fighter.
Not very maneuverable.
Empire: Imperial Shuttle
Medium armor and hitpoints
Can carry 10 infantry
Armed quite well (4 laser cannons and twin torpedo launchers)
Faster than a bomber, yet almost as fast as a fighter.
Rebels: Same for now.
Please... a gunship that can fire on 2-6 individual targets at a time, move at a speed faster than a bomber, and carry 10 troops? Why not just increase the speed of the air cruiser and make it able to carry troops? I hope you're thinking about upgrading AA along side all this...
Kryllith
Carry 10 infantry? Speed close to a fighter? Able to destroy entire armies in a single volley? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
Jedi3112 and Natopo, no offense, but you are taking a perfectly legitimate idea and blowing it WAY out of proportion. Your suggestion would be to create the all-powerful, unstoppable unit. I'm sorry, but I still think this would be the perfect unique unit for the GR:
Hit points between a fighter and a transport
NO shields
Upgradable to have armor
NO anti-air capability
Able to carry 2 infantry units (that wouldn't be able to fire/heal/convert while onboard)
Speed between bomber and fighter (closer to bomber)
Excellent attack versus infantry/good versus mechs
Weaker attack against heavy weapons/buildings
That is a perfectly reasonable UU. It has strengths that are unavailable to other units (making it unique), but still has a counter to it (AA mobiles, AA destroyers, AA turrets, and fighters). Additionally, the Jedi Starfighter would make a great standard fighter for the GR. It could have a scaled down version for the regular figher, the standard version for the fast figher, and have the hyperdrive ring for the advanced fighter. But I am still game to the idea of having it be a second unique unit. But, as always, just my opinion, you can disagree...
Peace Out...
Originally posted by Natopo
Here's my reccomendation for it:
Republic: LAAT (Gunship)
High armor and hitpoints
Can carry 10 infantry
Massively armed (4 pod lasers with independent tracking systems and dual fire rocket launchers for Air-to-Air)
3/4 speed of a fighter.
Not very maneuverable.
Empire: Imperial Shuttle
Medium armor and hitpoints
Can carry 10 infantry
Armed quite well (4 laser cannons and twin torpedo launchers)
Faster than a bomber, yet almost as fast as a fighter.
Rebels: Same for now.
THIS IS COMPLETELY IDIOTIC I GUESS THE EMPIRE SHOULD ALSO GET AN INDESTRUCTIBLE DEATH STAR WOULD THAT UNBALANCE THE GAME ENOUGH FOR YOU???
This is even stupider than any of the examples in my sig, too bad its too long to fit
simwiz2, Kryllity... thank you...
Two voices of reason in a sea of idiocy...
Peace Out...!
Sorry for the misspell Kryllith...
Peace Out...
Darth windu, did you read my quote from Greg Street on your other thread/poll? Doesnt seem like it. If it does help game play and is only added to look like the movies then it is a dumb idea. Period. Ganeplay takes precendence over anything. There are other fighters like the gungan one and the TIE Defender that are nothing like a stereotypical fighter but they aren't UU's.
The jedi starfighter is perfect conceptually as it is (Slightly faster attack would be nice). They were never used en masse or offensively like fighters (or gunships for that matter). They were piloted by jedi with force capabilities and only shot missiles. They were mainly used to move the jedi around or for reccionasse (SP?). They would be even less like fighters than gunships (which are by the way used excactly like fighters except for that transport thing).
Another thing, you cant add a unit without changing some other unit, and say that it does't help or hinder gameplay. It does either one or the other, and since you said it doesn't help it, this idea must hinder it. Just trying to make this thread think more realistically
Originally posted by nelapsi
simwiz2, Kryllity... thank you...
Two voices of reason in a sea of idiocy...
Peace Out...!
Grin, well I don't know about a SEA, but certainly a lake or pond. Most of the discussions early on seem to hit on a decent presentation of how a gunship would work but these later ones... I don't know... sound like someone's too interested in power tripping. :)
Oh, and no worries about the name. ;)
Kryllith
I think the most important thing to realise here is that, as Sithmaster has been trying to point out, the Gunship is not going to be changed. If the Republic was considered too weak then perhaps some sort ugrade might be considered as dovetailing nicely with a balance tweak. But it's not. There will, almost certainly, be no change. (I'd still like to see the movie Gunship art for the advanced fighter, but hey.)
I realise that this post runs rather contrary to my earlier one suggesting stats for an improved Gunship. I originally thought that a lightly armed transport might be kind of cool - perhaps not necessary per se, but is the Probot really necessary? However, this is escalating wildly now, and it's all getting a bit out of hand.
For those postulating the new Gunship as an expensive uberunit - bear in mind that a single Incom X-wing, a dedicated space superiority fighter and much more maneouverable than the Gunship, would normally encounter little difficulty in taking one out with a couple of proton torpedoes, since it could quickly get behind and above the larger craft and this render most of the Gunship's weaponry irrelevant. In this respect, at least, the Gunship's in-game designation as a fighter seems appropriate; in the air, what it would gain over a conventional fighter in terms of weight of fire it would lose in terms of agility and speed.