OK, this morning, keeping with the new fad of reviving old posts, I went looking for the post that I remember the fondest, the church post. Despite the fact that it was probably one of the most responded to posts ever, i couldn't find it. So, I decided to re-open the discussion with a new thread. There's plenty of new people here since the last "church session", and new people mean new ideas and opinions. So, I'd like to ask people what their thoughts on God are.

God Bless,
-Calypso

I just love these theological discussions...

ok, I was brought up a Roman Catholic, I get to Sunday mass about twice a month, and I find it helps me, it keeps me at peace to beleive that there is someone up there overseeing the crazy world we live in. In that I beleive is the very core of all religions, it is the belief that there is something more than the sum of all the parts on this earth, something to look forward to after we die...

I know for a fact that there is a God for there wouldn't be any point in things if there wasn't. I mean you would live and then you would die. what would be the point. there would be hardly any reason to keep any morals, but I learned long ago that there is a God and not only does he know you really well(like better than you do), he's a really nice guy too.

well I guess that's my three dollars.

Well I'd throw in my opinion.. but then this topic will end in a flaming war ^.^

Dont worry about that Pedro, it wouldnt be much of a discussion with only one side to the story, throw in you two cents.

I know for a fact that God is out there. I was raised in the United Methodest Church (I know we get a bad rap, but, we're actually no different in our beliefs than any other Christians). Anyway, I always believed in God and Jesus, and had accepted Them into my life at a young age. But, it wasnt until over this past summer that I Gained a greater understanding of God. I was in WV with my church on a missionary trip to fix up some less-than-perfect-homes for low income families. There were churches from all over the country there, and we stayed in a local high school for the week. Every night, we had an assembly, where we would talk of our accounts form the day, sing some songs, and have a little sermon. I cant remember what day it was exactly, but one night I guess you could say that I had what alcoholics call a "moment of clarity". The preacher was talking about how Jesus had died for all of us, and how much He loves each and every one of us unconditionally. I felt sort of a cool breeze blow across my face, and I kknow this is going to sound corny as heck, but i feel God touched me that night, and I will never forget that as the moment that I knew without a shadow of a doubt that He is there and He loves each and every one of us, more than any of us could imagine.

One of you (I cant remember who at the moment I'm typing) said that all major religions base their beliefs on a "higher power" if you will. I agree to that without a fight. Christianity, however, is the only religion that will offer unconditional love and forgiveness, without prejudgece against skin color, nationality, or sex.

There are plenty of people out there who dont even believe in the existence of God, and I'd like to know the logic that they have behind this decission.

God Bless,
-Calypso

Alright then... to sum it up shortly. "I'm a christian and anything but proud of it"

why aren't you proud of it? we as christians should be willing to stand up for, even to the point of death for his name. i am very proud, in the best sense, to be a christian, and i'm glad that because of Jesus' dying on the cross, and nothing else, i am going to live with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and all other believers after i die.

Alright, time to make myself the most hated member on JK.net but here goes.
Why I'm not proud of it? Rather simple, christianity, and especially catholism is corrupt, it just reeks of corruptness. And also, throughout history, everywhere Christians went, they forced their believes onto others, promoting it as the only true religion. (America, Africa, Japan are good examples.. and even europe in earlier days were brought to christianity through force) Also I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is just one allpowerful being that made the entire universe in 7 days and controls everything. I'd much rather believe that there is a Force binding all of us together. Another problem that I have with catholism is the fact that some silly pope decides over almost everything catholic church related.. who also disallows women to become priests which is just unfair. Anyways I'd better quit before Kurgan comes rushing in with his banning gun. ^^"

Now then, allow me to rebuttle....

All organizations in this world to some degree have corruption in them. But the small corruptions of the part doesnt justify damning the principal of the organization.

For example, the police are one of the groups of people who come under fire the most for being a bit corrupt ("a bit", in some cases, may be an understatement.) However, does this corruption mean that haveing a police force in every city is a bad idea? Of course not! The country's (I'm writing from the U.S.) police force does so much good to people every day, sometimes even giving their own lives in the line of duty so others can sleep a little easier at night. So, is it right to say that you don't believe in having a police force simply because there are parts of it that are corrupt?

Another great example that has gotten alot of attention since Sept. 11 is the Muslum religion. I'd be willing to bet that the average Joe Blow on the street now thinks of the Muslum religion is bad simply because that's the religion the group of terrorists who attacked the NY, DC, and PA practiced and stated as their reason for the attacks. This is just another case of part of the whole being corrupt and the entire whole being held responsible. The men who orchestrated those attacks were a group of exreamists, who took things in the Koran out of context.The Koran actually teaches many of the same basic principals of the Christian Bible, and the Muslum religion (although I dont believe in it) preaches peace and denounces hatred.

Now we come to the corruption in Christianity. Sure, there have been some less than Godly men out there, claiming to be men of the cloth, but these men are not spokesman for the rest of Christianity. Through missionary work, ect., Christianity has helped so many people througtout the world. Not only by bringing the light of God into people's lives, but by helping them with food drives, and other mission projects that improve their quality of life. Call that corrupt if you will, but if you do, make sure to include your definition of corrupt, because maybe I'm looking at a different one than you are.

God Bless,
-Calypso

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt
Alright, time to make myself the most hated member on JK.net

By The way, I don't hate you because of your different ideas, that's just silly. ( for lack of better words):D

Well I know some people that can be very extreme when it comes about religion.. I've known topics like this end up in flame wars on some forums thanks to people having a different opinion on religion ^^" (and friends become enemies etc etc.. personally I don't think one should fight because of differing religion.. to each their own eh ^_^")

I'm a christian too. I believe in God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit....and know i'm going to heaven if i die. (i say 'if', cause i don't know if it's possible for me to die since i haven't died b4...;))

edit: flame wars should only occur at massassi :D

edit #2: You didn't say anything to make me hate you. lol

But in the shaddow of what i said up there, how can you still claim Christianity corrupt? I'm not trying to start a flame war here, in fact, I promise never to flame, but I'd like to try and understand your veiwpoint.
God Bless,
-calypso

Well throughout the ages it hasn't exactly always been what it's promoting itself to be.. the crusades for starters.. while they were so called in the name of god.. they were actually more like pillaging and raping journeys than anything else. And then even up to this day there are priests who to less than decent things with churchgoers behind the scenes.. and also those that use donated money for their own good.. and then there's the pope being an idiot and not allowing women to become priests etc etc.

But once again, you are only focusing on the bad, yes there are people and have been people who have drug the Christian name through the mud. But these are only people and not the religion itself. Yes, there are idiots out there who are in the religion for their own personal bennefit, but to reiterate what I said earlier, these people do not reflect the beliefs of the Christian church. It's not like the Bible says, kill, rape, and steal from charity; just the opposite, as a matter of fact. And that's where, once again, the "blaming the whole for the mistakes of the part" thing comes in.

Who else wants in on this?

God Bless,
-Calypso

Well, seems like I'm the first atheist ( sp? ) in this thread. I don't believe in God / Jesus etc, and I don't think I ever will. Why you ask? Me, I just find it all incredibly hard to believe. How can someone actually find the patience, and / or have the capability, to watch us all and help us through every day. I think it's absurd. It's not possible. At least it is in my mind. =)

I'm more of a science man, if you want. I find the evolution theory to be more believeable than any religion. There are still bits and pieces missing from it, I know, but it is much easier to believe.

In these discussions it's pretty customary for someone to say "they've been touched by God", where you've felt something come over you, and maybe change something within yourself. I'm not religious at all, as you may have noticed, but I've felt that "change" as well. I believe it's just yourself creating that feeling, when you feel strongly about something, like a girl or religion, just to name a few.

All religions, in my opinion, are for people looking for security in their life. It always helps to have something to believe in. You're your own God, so to speak. He's inside you, but not in the religious way. He's your ethics, your judgement. But he's not an all-powerful being watching over you.

Well, that's my two cents for now, and I really have to go, or I'll miss school. =)

Yo, over here. I'm a Christian. But I will admit that sometimes I'm not to good of a one.:(

Well, I'd Type a relpy now, (and I have a good one, I promise), but, unfortunately, I seem to have frost bite in my index finger, so, I'm typing at a rate of only a word a minute here. Keep the discussion going, and I'll reply as soon as I can type again.
God Bless,
-Calypso

Alrigght, I'm not goiong to let a little frost bite keep me down, i can type through the bandages (if you guys will excuse the incessant typos for the moment)

Anyway, I was watching the news this morning before class, and I saw a segment on how there's this courthouse in Phillidelphia, PA, that has had the Ten Commandments on a plaque on the outside of the biulding for 80-some-odd years. Now, atheist, or "free thought" activists are lobbying to have the plauque removed because it "imposes a religion on them and is discriminatory", citing the whole seperation of church and state thing.

I, personally, think that the whole thing is bogus, but I hought I'd bring it up here to see what all of you thought.

God Bless,
-Calypso

I think it's lame of them to think that. :D It's only TEN commandments, at least it's not the 2 that say 'Love your enemy as yourself' and 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul.' Imagine what they'd do if that last one was put up!!! They'd be asking to take it down so fast they'd stumble over their words! :D

Congress has a Chaplain come and say a prayer before every session...they haven't gotten rid of that because they classify it as a tradition of some sort...

but I don't think that plaque will stay up there much longer, it should, since its part of the original structure and it should be treated as a monument, but it will probably get taken down...

Just having a plaque on a wall doesn't bother me very much, especially if it's a valued historic object. To me, as an atheist, it could stay up, without me having any trouble with it.

I can see their point of view, as I believe religion and state should be separate as well, but it seems to me that these are extremely anti-religious people, who specifically look for these kinds of situations, just so they can complain.

Calypso, you mentioned frostbite? What happened?

Long story short, my hand was exposed to a super-cold liquid, and I wasn't able to wash it off right away. By the time I got a chance to, my finger was frozen, and as anyone who has ever had frost bite can attest to, it is not a pleasent thing, it hurts for a day or so, much like a burn would, but then you lose all feeling completely. I had the dead sking and such removed from my finger, and thank the Lord, the tissue underneith was still pink, so, it'll be fine, whenever it decides to heal itself.

As far as the plaque goes, i think the if the "free thought activists" are so offended by it, then they should just avoid looking at it. Our problem, as a country is that we try to please everyone, all the time, we can't caiter to every single special intrest group, but, then again, when we caiter to some and not others, we get accused of biased. So, I really see no "non-revolutionary" way of fixing the whole problem.

God Bless,
-Calypso

On the contrary, I think that the people on the forums connected with this site are actually quite open to discussing ideas such as this in a civilized manner.

Obviously, some of us get excited and sometimes cross the line, but all in all, it's probably a pretty good place to discuss it (other than a religious discussion board of course, which would be the most appropriate).

Ever so often I run into people on the internet who are of two varieties:

Atheists who denounce all religion and insult all religious people out of hand. They are the ones saying "all religion does is cause war, why do you believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky and tells you to hate everyone???"

Christians who go around saying that unless you join their denomination and believe 100% what they do, you're going straight to hell.. do not pass "Go,".. do not collect $200.

Both of these kinds piss me off, because their responses are so cliched and tired... so one-sided that it's nearly impossible to debate with them. They get mad.. they spit their party line at you, and leave.

However, in our discussions of religious and philosophical topics I have found very little actual flaming, and a lot of misunderstandings are cleared up in these kinds of talks. I find it rather invigorating to know that the above two examples are NOT the norm everywhere, and there may be hope for us after all.

; )

Personally I think that all seeking people, who strive to live their lives the best they can, are following a kind of religion, whether they profess to or not.. the feeling that we're all part of something greater than just what we can see and touch with our senses. It's this "spirit" if you will that leads people to join religions and practice them with love and fervor. Sadly, this can be perverted sometimes into the kind of bad things you see sometimes, like holy wars, corruption, and that sort of thing. However, I like to think that despite the bad that it can bring out in people, it can also bring out a lot of good and that's what we should work towards encouraging.

Hmmmm.....I never thought i'd see this topic:D....... I believe in Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. I'm a christian, but I also believe that it is a person's choice to decide their religion/or not to have a religion. I don't believe in forcing a religion on someone, if they want to believe it they must make that choice... and thats my opinion.

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt
Alright, time to make myself the most hated member on JK.net but here goes.
Why I'm not proud of it? Rather simple, christianity, and especially catholism is corrupt, it just reeks of corruptness. And also, throughout history, everywhere Christians went, they forced their believes onto others, promoting it as the only true religion. (America, Africa, Japan are good examples.. and even europe in earlier days were brought to christianity through force) Also I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is just one allpowerful being that made the entire universe in 7 days and controls everything. I'd much rather believe that there is a Force binding all of us together. Another problem that I have with catholism is the fact that some silly pope decides over almost everything catholic church related.. who also disallows women to become priests which is just unfair. Anyways I'd better quit before Kurgan comes rushing in with his banning gun. ^^"

Christianity should never have become entangled in government---none of the things you said had to happen, but thanks to Christianity becoming a political force, they did. Thanks for nothing Constantine. :rolleyess

(I disagree however with your finding it hard to believe in God...IMO He is the only explanation for the complexity and interacting forces of the universe. ^_^)

i'm a christian, my church was in a gym but now we got an addition and it's great

Thanks for nothing Constantine.

good one!!

I'm not really sure how i feel about the whole "church and state" issue. I mean, as an avid Christian, I would definately love to see a government modeled after all the ideals and principals in the Bible, but, then again, the vision of a perfect "utopian" society existing today is obviously just that, a vision.

As far as where the line should be drawn for the place we live, I'm not sure on that either. Reiterating what I said before, there is no way to please everyone. But I dont believe in having a double standard, either. Should there be prayer in school? No, the athiests will be upset, but then congress starts each of its sessions with a prayer. Hmm... that seems like a double standard to me....

(BTW, about the Constantine comment, just one thing I can say.....ZING!)

Why do people characterize all non-Christians as atheists? I have a feeling that Muslims, Hindus, and Sihks would be just as annoyed, if not more so, at mandatory school prayer. The current situtation accomodates all students equally; students are free to pray, discuss religion amongst themselves, found religious clubs, and express their freedom of religion in practically any other fashion.

Congress, on the other hand, is given the express power by the Constitution to elect its own officers, which is why there is a chaplain. Congress is also composed of adults, not children; if a Congressman wishes to not pray, he isn't going to be scorned by his peers as a child would. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons given by the Supreme Court for the abolishment of school prayer was the ridiculing of students that followed minority religions. Unfortunately, schoolchildren often feel the need to conform with their peers, and school-led prayer gives non-Christian children the feeling that their religions are "wrong", even if they supposedly have the option of not praying.

There's not much of a point in group prayer in either Congress or school, anyway. Most Christians feel that Christianity means a personal relationship with God, yet canned group prayer is as impersonal as it gets. Jesus always prayed in private, and judging by Matthew 6:5-6, he wouldn't be a big supporter of mandatory school prayer, either. The various organizations attempting to reinstate school prayer are mainly just doing it for the sake of having something to ***** about so they can maintain the "poor oppressed Christian" facade. Apparently, some people won't be happy unless religious freedom is replaced with religious absolutism.

Originally posted by Argath
Why do people characterize all non-Christians as atheists? I have a feeling that Muslims, Hindus, and Sihks would be just as annoyed, if not more so, at mandatory school prayer

OK, I apologize, that was just a poor choice of wording on my part, I really should have have non-christians may be offended.

Originally posted by Argath
Congress is also composed of adults, not children; if a Congressman wishes to not pray, he isn't going to be scorned by his peers as a child would.

However, this is where I will have to disagree with you. You cannot honestly tell me that adults are not the same as children in the sence of ridiculing those who are different. This, in my belief is simply human nature for most, that is, to be afraid of or ridicule something that we do not fully understand. Children do it, adults do it, seniors do it, everyone does it (and by everyone I mean all groups of people, not every individual.)


Originally posted by Argath
Apparently, some people won't be happy unless religious freedom is replaced with religious absolutism.

If this is the way i came across earlier, I apologize, I don't want to push my religion on anyone.

By the way, Argath, you remained a bit ambiguous through your post, are you yourself a Christian?

Originally posted by Argath


There's not much of a point in group prayer in either Congress or school, anyway. Most Christians feel that Christianity means a personal relationship with God, yet canned group prayer is as impersonal as it gets. Jesus always prayed in private, and judging by Matthew 6:5-6, he wouldn't be a big supporter of mandatory school prayer, either.

but didn't Jesus say when 2 or more are gathered in His name, he'll be amongst them?

Why do people characterize all non-Christians as atheists?

In general, I don't think that's a given, although there are always exceptions. Whenever hotbutton issues come up like this in the American media/public sphere it usually ends up the most vocal factions are fundamentalist or evangelical Christians and atheists (freethinkers, secular humanists, etc).

Obviously just because two people belong to a group doesn't mean they will feel the exact same way about an issue, but in popular rhetoric it's very easy to fall into the trap of over-generalizing, I would imagine, since it happens so often.

I would think that mandatory public prayer in a belief system different (or even opposed) to your own would be considered offensive by most people. If it's voluntary, I know of many people who would gladly participate, and others respectfully decline.

I would see a moment of silence granted in the public sphere of mixed company as an opportunity given for those who did wish to take time for prayer (as many religions encourge the practice), while some would see it as a time to pressure people to conform, though you do make a good point, Argath, about the differences between children and adults in this matter. I do know that some who do not pray, do consider it a threat to their freedom if others pray around them.

Calypso, I think one thing you could throw in is that it may boil down to a parent's issue. A parent wishes to raise their children a certain way, and they pay to have their child go to school (either through taxes for public, or paying for a private school) and so they have a say. Thus a parent might object to what they felt was an environment that threatened to overturn the beliefs that they wanted their children to have. Then the parent could just take their child out of that environment (ie: have them do something else while everybody else is praying) but I think in those cases, the child would feel left out, and the parent would rather not have to do that, thus the dilemma.

Oh and I agree, the persecution of other people based solely on differing ideas is shameful, for any religion. I think people tend to point out the faults of Christianity because it is so widespread, long-lived, and has had time to accumulate corrupt members and leaders. Most Christians look at this as a human failing, rather than the fault of the religion itself, though some would disagree. It's important to recall that in 2000+ years, with billions of Christians, there's a wide spectrum of both belief and practice. The same can be said of Islam, or any other belief system or ideology.

Originally posted by Kurgan

I think people tend to point out the faults of Christianity because it is so widespread, long-lived, and has had time to accumulate corrupt members and leaders.

It's funny you should bring this up, because it ties into what I was going to mention next, and that is the officials of the Catholic Curch that have gotten some rather "bad press" as of late. What does everyone think of that?

People tend to be afraid of what they do not understand so we have to keep that in mind. Plus we must understand that there is a spiritual battle that wages against the church. Other religions are easier for people to accept becasue there is no spritual force hindering them from being involved. Ofcourse people are turned of to Christianity, they are evidence enough for me that satan is still in action today. Not to say any person who isn't a Christian is a satanist, but they are being blinded to the truth.

There are so many versions of the "truth" out there that the very notion of "truth" has become abstract. Most of the population of this planet believes in being/beings higher than themselves, in which they look for spiritual guidance of some sort, that in itself is pretty amazing I think. I am a Roman Catholic, but I am not someone who sees it fit to preach my beliefs to others and tell people who do not believe in the same things as I do that they are wrong and damned to hell for it. I believe it is everyones right to worship and follow any set of beliefs they want. I think that religions should be regarded more for the message they bring, because most religions preach the same things when it comes down to the bottom line anyway. Whether you believe in Allah, Yahweh, Jesus Christ, Buddah, or even the 3 million Gods/Goddesses of Hindu, I think the focus of religions should be on the message, and not the methods. I wish religious tolerance could be acheived in this world, it would be a great step towards a true world peace.

Ofcourse people are turned of to Christianity, they are evidence enough for me that satan is still in action today. Not to say any person who isn't a Christian is a satanist, but they are being blinded to the truth.

Barnabas, define truth. Remember, there are different views as to what the 'truth' really is.

Kylilin, that's a great view you have there, and very tolerant as well. Couldn't agree more. *applause* =)

What do I mean whan I say truth?
Well I am a Christian, non-denominational, and the truth to me is that there is only one way to the Father (God) and that is through the Son (Jesus Christ). Now you may say that this is close minded. If I didn't really beleive that it was the only way then what would be the point in me believing it at all? If I thought that this was just the way for me and that other people could beleive whatever they wanted then that would show I really don't believe what I believe. But I do beleive it, not because I'm close minded but because I know it to be the truth.

It's funny you should bring this up, because it ties into what I was going to mention next, and that is the officials of the Catholic Curch that have gotten some rather "bad press" as of late. What does everyone think of that?

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but I'll assume it was the two Catholic priests caught in a child pornography sting, and that story (which I didn't read) about a baseball manager saying that he was molested by a priest as a child (or something to that affect).

Without getting into the gory details, I will say that sexual abuse by clergy is nothing new, nor is it remarkable.

In fact, religious leaders have committed sinful acts (according to their own creeds) ever since there have been religious leaders.

Now that is not to say that we shouldn't have religious leaders, or that religious leaders must be perfect, but I think it's something to keep in mind.

If these men committed crimes and abused their trust and office, then yes, they should be punished in due fashion. However, I think the question that is on your mind is, does this somehow INVALIDATE the message of the institution they represent?

I would say, NOT NECESSARILY.

Because as I said, corrupt leaders have existed since the beginning, they are nothing new. And in addition, while you have corrupt leaders, you also have many leaders who are decent, honest, hardworking, and quite moral people. And having corrupt leaders is not something unique to Catholicism, or even religious insitutions. That is why I take little stock in such a thing as a way to invalidate a tradition.

Personally, I've seen Pope John Paul II has apologized time and again for abuses committed by people representing the Church (many long dead) in public, and yet this stuff still goes on. He doesn't have the kind of power to police every single person that decides to just go against their own teachings. Some people still criticize him no matter what he does, but at least he's trying.

Catholicism teaches that the sacraments performed by its clergy are instituted by Christ (God) and therefore the grace is from God and works through the faith of the person recieving (that is why in infant baptism there have to be "sponsors" since the infant cannot be expected to know what's going on, and in Confirmation a person decides if they want to continue in the Church as an adult member).

The Donatist sect, in a nutshell, believed that sacraments performed by sinful clergy were invalid. If you agree with them, then that pretty much settles the argument.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05121a.htm)

also:

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=donatist)

OK, I'm not sure why my post hasnt been showing up, but I'll try for a 3rd time....

Kurgan, I don't knwo if perhaps I came accross as having a negitive view of the Catholic Church as a result of what happened, but, on the contrary, I agree with you one hundred per cent. In fact, it ties into my "blaming the whole for the sins of the part" tirdae that i went into earlier (I'll spare your ears and not repeat it)

Barnabas, (Good to see you back), although my ideas of religous truth parallel yours, I think that we are faced with the fact that, as long as there id more than one religion (or even multiple demoninateions of the same religion) that religious truth will always be somewhat of an abstract idea.

God Bless,
-Calypso

It would be wonderful if everyone could just let people be whatever religion they wanted. Most terrorists and wars have religion as there start, attacking someone because they are a different religion.

Ok, I havent been able to get here for the past couple of days, what with school and work and the holidays and everything. By the way, I hope everyone had a super Easter!

Now then, what does everyone think about the situation overseas with Palestine and Isreal? I must admit, I'm not 100% sure of all the details entailed in this, but I do think I have a pretty good idea of what is happening over there.

From what I understand, every little bit of terrorism over there has been retaliatory for something done by the other first. So, it would seem as if all that was needed is for one side to just be big enough to say: "You know what, we're tired of fighting, people are dying....let's stop."

Like I said, maybe I'm misinformed... I know we have people here who live in that general area of the world, and I'm sure that they're all ready to set me straight.

God Bless,
-Calypso

It's a frightening situation because it has the potential to start the next World War, seriously... If Arafat somehow turns up dead, the Muslim world may be outraged, making him a martyr and a cause for a war, which the United States surely would get involved in.

If the Palestinians would stop with the bombings, then the Israelis would maybe leave palestine, and if the Israelis left Palestine, then the Palsetinians would mabye stop the bombings.

Kylilin, I agree, I lose sleep over it at night mainly for the fact that I am elligable for the "selective service" as they call it, and if war breaks out, theres a good chance I'm going....and that scares the living hell out of me. One of my biggest fears ever since I was a child has always been been being sent of to die in a war. ( By the way, what does that say about the state of the world in the first place if a child is afraid of going to war?) Arafat has already been quoted many times in saying that he wants to be a martyr, I just hope and pray that President Bush can handle everything that he will be presented with, and that he makes the right decissions about U.S. involvement. I know most Americans are on an anti-terrorism kick right now. (Hell, how could we not be after Sptember 11?) But I'm afraid of this turning into another Vietnam, where we go into a war that we have no place in.

Bah, people just don't learn do they, violence only begets more violence which leads to a very vicious circle.

Wombat (or anyone else who knows for that matter), do you think you could enlighten those of us (namely me) on how the whole situation over there came to be. I know whats going on now, but I don't know the details of how it all happened.

I think it originally started with the Palestinians wanting to have their own country, but some of the land they wanted Israel would not give, so I think that is why the Palestinians started throwing rocks at the Israeli soldiers, who shot back, which caused the Palestinians to start using guns, which caused the Israelis to move tanks and thing in.

Well, they've been going at it down there for over 50 years now. I heard that Bush put his foot down yesterday though, saying that this has to stop. It was in the papers this morning, but I haven't had the time to read it yet. I really should go do that now.

Ok, I don't really know where this fits in with this thread, but, as long as we're talking about the mid-east, I thought that you guys could provide me with a little insight.

In my AP Economics class, I have to write a research paper concerning terrorism and poverty overseas. The Prompt is: "does poverty cause terrorism overseas? why or why not,"

I figured you guys could get me started with your points of view.

God Bless,
-C