in ROTJ does it seem weird to you guys that arrows and laser shots to non-vital parts of the body can kill a stormtrooper with his armor on, while leia takes a hit and shakes it off in a matter of seconds to kill another imperial? and how in the world d o ewoks, with the upper arm strength of a 10 year old, manage to KILL stormtroopers in full armor :trooper: by whacking them with sticks and stones?


sorry if this has been posted before, it seems such a blazingly obvious flaw

also what are your thoughts on the battle of endor? even though the emperor was killed, it seems to me like the massive fleet, no matter how incompetent, could have destroyed the rebels.

you could explain that the trooper armor is poorly spaced and the troopers got knocked unconscious by the repeated knocking on the helmet.

i remember in the thrawn trilogy, i think it was in a book, that they talked about the emporer was actually sort of coordinating the entire empire fleet through the force and that once he was killed the empire fleet lost all of its organization and that was the reason they were unable to defeat the rebels.

i remember in the thrawn trilogy, i think it was in a book, that they talked about the emporer was actually sort of coordinating the entire empire fleet through the force and that once he was killed the empire fleet lost all of its organization and that was the reason they were unable to defeat the rebels.

Yeah he was using battle meditation same thing bastilla uses in KOTOR and nomi sunrider, anyway after losing the emporer all the imperial officers went into some sort of state of confusion.

As for the ewoks its not really said in the movie but it seems there was actually ment to be hundreds and hundreds of them gathered from all the tribes in the area so it was more a case the storm troopers where overwhelmed by the sheer number of them.

Also remember that storm troopers helmets vision seems to be terrible making it easy for the little buggers to suprise them.

Stormtrooper armor provides more than just protection (or lack there of) against blasters and wooden arrows, it also has life support systems and temperature controlled body gloves, with utility belt with some gizmos in there. In case a trooper is out in the field and needs provisions while in war zones, or just doing basic patrols. Although your average Stormtrooper, atleast on screen, doesn't seem to bright to even realize this.

Also the helmets are specifically designed for each trooper.

Also the helmets are specifically designed for each trooper.

thats after the 501st leigon got too old so they started hiring non-clones.

The easy deaths can be explained. It's a sort of shock... i forgot what its called i think it begins with "Z" but its some sort of shock. Anyway when the laser, arrow, rock whatever hits the armour it emits a shock through their body knocking them out, paralyzing them or killing them. Not many people know that but it is right to what would really happen. notice the armour is inpenitrable, leaving no holes but they still "die" (sometimes they dont die as I said before)

;)

Basically we're stuck with the official explanation that the armor is awesome, the troops are awesome, but in the movies they suck. I guess it's a combination of character shields, plot/drama requirements and other non-suspension of disbelief stuff.

You could say the quality of training and armor budget went down after the Empire was established in its power, and the "Will of the Force" and other stuff. Perhaps there was a burecratic screw-up and Palpy actually sent his WORST TROOPS (not "best" troops) to Endor... Saying the troops were overconfident and un-prepared and the Ewoks and Rebels were just AWESOME as well as lucky is fine I suppose. I like the explanation that the clones were old men by this time. ;)

It's been argued that no body armor will ever stop everything you could throw at it in the field, which is true. However, that the Empire can't design armor to resist stone-age arrows fired by midget creatures from bows and blunt trauma from sticks and stone-age axes handled by said creatures stretches it quite a bit. At least these primitive attacks shouldn't be able to take a Trooper out of the fight (even if we assume every single Trooper hit in such a way was not killed) in 1-2 hits like we see. We know they CAN design better stuff, at least according to the EU. Just about every Imperial unit that wears armor besides Stormtroopers and Scouts are listed as having "superior" armor. We even have super-hard Darktroopers. Arguing cost prohibitive also ignores the sheer size and resources of the Empire. We're forced to think they just didn't care about losing their men (which really doesn't make sense with Clones that take so long to replace). And yet the much more cash-strapped Rebels can afford some of this stuff... or else the protection they DO give their troopers doesn't seem to help anymore than not having it (so the Rebels are just fine to do without!). I mean if you're out to save money, and your trooper's armor doesn't help, why not just ditch it altogether? Just give them uniforms like the Imp Officers, with different rank markings...

Of course the "big dumb, army of doom" cliche in sci fantasy has to be upheld somehow...

Even if the Empire was using all recruited non-clones by this time (rather than "shanghaing a few guys here and there" like Lucas says was happening by this time), the Empire could still have afforded to recruit the best, so that's really no excuse. They also could have afforded to outfit their TIE Fighters with shields and hyperdrive quite easily. A lot of the handicaps given to the Empire's forces in the EU really forgets just how massive a galaxy-wide Empire that can build all these Super-Weapons in such a short time would be. Unless they really were just a step away from bankrupt... but still!

Apparently it wasn't useless considering that the Stormtroopers kicked the Rebels' asses in battle, even when the Rebels had the tactical advantage (see the Tantive IV boarding).

the Stormtroopers kicked the Rebels' asses in battle, even when the Rebels had the tactical advantage (see the Tantive IV boarding).

How many rebels are on the tantive compared to the hundreds on a star destroyer? the rebels didnt even stand a chance so how is that a tatical advantage?

There were about 8 boarding troopers and a shipload of Rebels.


Anyway, People always cite "the stormies armor didn't even stop arrows" which is untrue. What hit the stormtroopers was the constant assualt with rather large rocks. Even heavy armor can't stop the force by a large hit, it just prevents damage from a shot/blade strike. You still get bruised, and when you get enough of those hits (especially on the head) you get quite damaged. Surely some of those troopers got concussions.

The armor is not useless, just doesn't make them godly unstoppable machines.

I see it like a jockey cup, it minimalizes damage, but you still get bruised. But it could be a hell of a lot worse.

There were about 8 boarding troopers and a shipload of Rebels.


They were boarded by a star destroyer im sure there where more than 8 stationed on it.

Still, 8 troopers took out a ship full of rebel soldiers. That's pretty impressive.

They were boarded by a star destroyer im sure there where more than 8 stationed on it.

No, they were not boarded by a Star Destroyer. That doesn't even make sense. They were boarded by a small boarding party of about eight men. Not every Stormtrooper on the whole Star Destroyer would board a captured vessel.

it might be just me, but i seem to remember a lot more STs and officers in the few scenes than just 8. that and that would make very little sense.

Commander: Lord Vader, we have the Princess' ship and bringing in.
Lord Vader: ....find the best 8 men we have and send them in....even though four or five will be killed, we will still have 3 or 4 left...adn dont fail me commander
C: but lorder vader...i need more men
LV: you can tell that to the Emperor when h....oops, wrong conversation...your future is clouded, i see.
C: whatever, about the boarding of the manned ship of rebels
LV: oh, 8 is enough...and send in that little one, Nicholas...he gets on my nerves
C: yes lord vader.

suggesting that they only used 8 STs in the take over of a Corvette is perposterous(ms?). why is that people only believe exactly what they see? of course there were only 8 STs....thats all I saw!!

There were more seen because more boarded the ship after it was secure. But the boarding party that actually took the ship was about eight.

There were more seen because more boarded the ship after it was secure. But the boarding party that actually took the ship was about eight.
^

A boarding party is the group the first breaches the ship and secures the area. What was shown was the boarding party. They pretty much cleaned out the ship on their own.

After that, Vader came on board.

Ill give you that a few came thru the door and were last seen chasing a few people down a corridor, but please tell me you dont actually believe they secured the entire ship before any more people were sent. At most they secured that immediate area, but size, numbers, and causulties dictate that 6 people--one died before steping in the ship and one soon after--do not have the manpower to take a ship as large as a Corvette as there are multiple levels as well as many rebels. this isnt the Falcon, you know.

But how many of the ship's occupants were Rebel Soldiers? Surely not ever one of them. "Commoners" aren't going to put up a fight against a Stormtrooper... and even the movie hinted that the escape pods were being used...

ie - when they failed to blast the living hell out of the pod the droids took to Tatooine

Plus factor in that their ship was pretty much "swallowed" by the Destroyer. If you did escape the initial 8 onslaught.. where are you going to go? A whole Destroyer company is not my idea of a good plan :bluidea: "Hey let's put up a fight against a small city! We can win!.. err.. guys, where are you going.. guys?" hehehe...

I'm sure surrender was an option most of the Rebels took...if they were given the "luxury"...

Well, this is not BF2, and you can't kill 1000 people on your own(including 2 jedis) as an engineer without dying...

But yeah Stormtrooper armor is pretty useful, esp when it comes with the whole environment control/communications/etc functions in it.

I would imagine the suit is designed to withstand laster type weapons rather than physical damage (like shock) though.

Also, we don't know if ewoks have weak strength. Fo all we care their muscle structure may be way stronger than humans. If their muscle structure is like that of a, say, chimp... then they are still a bit stronger than a regular human, given their small size.

Also not that there are like 12342 heavy rocks drooping on those troopers, from really really high places sometimes even taking into account the low-grav of Endor Moon, so some of them is going to hit an unprotected area, like the back of the neck or something, or maybe damage the environment control unit, possably overheating the poor trooper.

Anyhow, ewoks ate it big time due to the pollution of the Deat Death Star anyways.

Yeah, it's a good theory, but not airtight. For example Leia takes out a Scout by slamming a stick (not piercing, but sideways) into his (armored) chest. If the Trooper armor is designed to resist blaster bolts, it seems to have done a poor job, since we never see them get back up again after being blasted.

Then again, perhaps you could argue it's one of those things where it just might save the guy's life rather than him just shrugging it off like nothing (like a modern day bullet proof vest.. it might still take you out of the fight, but you could recover without the wound being fatal). That would contradict the common rationalization that the Empire "doesn't care about it's soldiers" and this is why they don't put shields, hyperdrives or missiles on their fighters (though this too is an assumption, mostly based on game mechanics rather than the movies themselves).

Some have pointed out that the holes blown in troopers by blaster shots in the movies are smaller than the holes blown in walls by the same blasters. Nice, but of course it just goes to show that the armor is not quite effective with dealing with the weaponry they're going to be facing in combat. If it was so great, why don't the Rebels wear it too? (appart from the obvious "bad guys are faceless drones in scary suits" cliche of sci-fi/fantasy).

I guess you have to argue that she's unwittingly using Force enhanced strength in that case or something... (and/or that Scout Trooper's armor sucks worse than regular stormtrooper armor).

It should also be pointed out that although the Clones appear to be able to see through the dust and smoke when fighting droids on Geonosis (AOTC), they seem foiled well enough by R2D2's "smokescreen" in ESB.

Ah yes, Curtis Saxton's "Endor Holocaust" scenario. ;)

I hate ewoks, they make stormtroopers look bad! :P

I hate ewoks, they make stormtroopers look bad! :P

no, they don't, stormies are bad as it is...

i remember in the thrawn trilogy, i think it was in a book, that they talked about the emporer was actually sort of coordinating the entire empire fleet through the force and that once he was killed the empire fleet lost all of its organization and that was the reason they were unable to defeat the rebels.

Apparently due to his Battle Meditation. Very interesting that. :)

Apparently due to his Battle Meditation. Very interesting that. :)

Ah thanks for posting what was said right underneath the post you quoted.
Damn i wish people would read through threads before posting.

Not THAT old.

I was aware Terros. I was merely remarking that it was interesting. Geez. :)