Now, this is a question that has interested me for a very long time. I'm eager to hear others thoughts and hope it will include discussion about theological viewpoints of the topic, hopefully without becoming preachy in any way :(

As can be gathered from my other post, I am Islamic. The Islamic expression of they devil, described using the arabic word sheytan refers to a corrupting influence/an evil spirit. As the Kuran shares many of the Old Testament stories, there are frequent concurrencies with The Bible for instances this term is used.

I am aware that the embodiment of evil, devilism, satanism has a mythology all its own, and not just related to the mainstream religions.

The point I find my mind gets stuck at though, is what actually does using this term describe. Even though I am Islamic, I really have a tough time accepting 'the devil' in any specific sense. I really do not think there is an evil spirit or force bent on corrupting mankind and ruining the world....

I find it hard to believe that evil has anything to do with an external source....I think "evil" may reside in the heart of mankind alone....if at all. When members of the animal kingdom viciously kill each other, it is easily acceptable to describe it as part of nature Only mankind has been able to so successfully, and horrifically kill members of its own species on such a large and frequent scale...

what do others, think ? What do the terms 'evil' and 'the devil' mean to you ?

thanks. looking forward to your input. :)

mtfbwya

The historical reasons for the inclusion of the Devil in the Torah - and hence the NT and Quoran - trace back to the founding of Judeaism. Judeaism grew out of the polytheistic, pagan religions, something that is blatantly evident in OT (as a note on the side this raises issues about the validity of Christianity and Islam as well, because they base themselves on the inconsistent Judeaism). Judeaism is basically a pagan cult that got out of hand. And this pagan cult happened to be in opposition to another pagan cult, whose head deity was then portrayed as 'the ultimate evil' - hence the concept of Satan. As the various monotheistic religions grew out of a pagan base and since they have assimilated or eradicated other pagan cults, they have adopted various other pagan traits, such as the concept of lesser gods (angels) or malicious spirits (djinn, daemons).

As always, theology makes more sense when viewed as a product of history.

Originally posted by ShadowTemplar
As always, theology makes more sense when viewed as a product of history.

Thats something I agree with absolutely & wholeheartedly.... and it makes history profoundly intriguing as a result :)

mtfbwya

Originally posted by Astrotoy7
and it makes history profoundly intriguing as a result

Hehe... "Intriguing" is just the right word...

I'm not clued up on the Kuran, do they count the devil as a physical being, or just a general evil spirit?

Do the Kuran and Torah follow the whole "devil was cast down from heaven" thing from the bible, or is that purely christian?

I'd guess that if you are one of those people who reads the bible literally (no evolution cos of noah, etc..) then you have to believe that the devil is a physical being who was an angel and was cast down.
It is a cool story (watch The Prophecy :D ) but as a "true" story it doesn't make much sense. God came off as the bad guy to me. Why would he allow this outcast to get the souls of sinners? If god is all powerful he could stop the devil with a thought. Which means he must have planned the whole thing, which means the devil never had a choice but to be evil... you could go on and on.

Most christians aren't taught to read the bible literally though, they are taught to read it as a collection of stories, parables and lessons. If you read it that way then the devil makes much more sense. Both as a warning, a way to illustrate why people shouldn't do bad things and a way to scare people into the hands of organised religion.

Christianity has incorporated 100s of old existing festivals, beliefs and dates into its belief system (christmas, valentines day, etc..) so i can fully understand why it would incorporate the deity of a rival religion as a "bad guy". This doesn't invaldate the "parable" version of the devil though, only the literal one.

Then again, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled....

Originally posted by toms
I'm not clued up on the Kuran, do they count the devil as a physical being, or just a general evil spirit?

Like Christianity and Judeaism, they probably have a little of both, since the devil has been used as a propaganda trick against various other cults. This means that - besides from the orthodox theology, there has been numerous additions stemming from the folklore of the conquered regions.

Do the Kuran and Torah follow the whole "devil was cast down from heaven" thing from the bible, or is that purely christian?

That part being from the Torah, I'd guess that they do.

It is a cool story (watch The Prophecy :D ) but as a "true" story it doesn't make much sense. God came off as the bad guy to me. Why would he allow this outcast to get the souls of sinners?

Even more intriguing, we're only allowed to hear Yahve's side of the story. We have no guarentee that it doesn't paint a biassed picture. In fact, we have every guarentee that it probably does. Lucifer, it could be argued, merely questioned Yahve's enforcement of absolute power, and that's why Yahve got pissed and chucked him out.

Of course, debating which events in a fictional story are 'real' is a kinda moot point.

If god is all powerful he could stop the devil with a thought. Which means he must have planned the whole thing, which means the devil never had a choice but to be evil... you could go on and on.

But that's because the idea of omnipotence isn't, and has never been, given a reality check. It's simply adopted dogmatically, despite the logical problems.

Originally posted by toms
It is a cool story (watch The Prophecy :D ) but as a "true" story it doesn't make much sense. God came off as the bad guy to me. Why would he allow this outcast to get the souls of sinners? If god is all powerful he could stop the devil with a thought. Which means he must have planned the whole thing, which means the devil never had a choice but to be evil... you could go on and on.


It indeed does make sense, because Christianity is a religion of choice. You have the free will to choose good or evil. The same choice must have been given to Devil also. What kind of choice is it if you are obliterated by a divine thought the next moment you choose evil? In Christianity forgiveness is such an essential thing. Evil can redeem itself. It's an ambiguous thing.

Hmmm... It seems to me that Jahve has laid the smackdown on quite a few 'sinners' in his time, according to OT.

- But of course wiping out a couple of cities, killing all the firstborn of Egypt and generally being a pain in the butt doesn't really match up to removing the big boogeyman himself... What would Jahve do without someone to place the blame on?

Or more to the point: What would Jahve's self-proclaimed champions do?

"Evil" is on the opposite end of the moral spectrum from "good."

It's intentions and actions bourne of free will gone horribly wrong. It's an abuse of freedom and something harmful in and of itself.

Now some will argue that "good" and "evil" do not exist, that they are merely "ideas" we humans have made up.

While these terms may get abused (say during elections or during a war), I think they have some validity.

How could one (who is sane) say that the actions of Hitler were not "evil"? Or those of Stalin or any of the other mass murderers of history?

Then, if religion defines what good and evil "mean" then a person might believe that something is evil that another person believes is good.

For example eating pork. One might view it as a horrible thing, another as something that is perfectly natural.

Then again, I think even those who shun the eating of pork would not call it a moral evil, but something unclean, that makes one ritually impure. It's something you don't do, but it's not "evil" (like murder or rape).

Then again evil may itself be a spectrum, like good. We speak of a "greater good" and a "lesser evil."


As to the devil, well, he's in the details, pardon the pun.

As a personification of evil, "he" gets blamed for a lot of stuff. Supposedly he makes crazy people kill, and he corrupts everything good around him. Maybe so, but taken to an extreme the devil basically ends up being an evil doppelganger for God. He's the Evil Twin (tm) of the Deity.

That may be a popular notion (popular in the sense of folk beliefs) but in Christian theology the devil, Satan was one of God's angels (created ethereal beings with powers beyond humans) who rebelled and was punished for his rebellion by exile from heaven. As a result of his expulsion, he takes pleasure in having "revenge" on human beings, God's other favored creation, who are particularly supceptible to his influences, thanks to their own expulsion from the Garden of Eden for disobedience.

In the Biblical Book of Job, Satan is described as being a lieutenant of God, who tests the faith of one of God's followers. He does this by basically ruining Job's (material) life, destroying his home, making him ill and killing his livestock and family. One could argue with the morality of letting a destructive influence like this be part of God's entourage, but the Book of Job is not-literal history, but mythology used as a thought experiment about the Justice of God. That is, how can God be good if he lets bad things happen to good people? The classic "problem of evil" and discussion of Free Will. The Book doesn't necessarily provide a satisfactory answer, but it does discuss it and that's the important thing.

People can do evil apart from Satan's influence, that's the bottom line I think here.

The term "Satan" means adversary. Jesus even refers to Peter as "you satan" in the New Testament (at a moment when Peter is arguing that it would be better for Jesus not avoid facing crucifixion) meaning an opponent.

Originally posted by Kurgan
....People can do evil apart from Satan's influence, that's the bottom line I think here.....



Although my feelings about this issue favour its exploration moreso with psychological and social determinants(as opposed to the theological), with regards to the 'bottom line' , I feel the same way.... (reminded me of the phrase "the truth lies somewhere in the middle")

mtfbwya

People can do evil apart from Satan's influence, that's the bottom line I think here.

Well, would people do evil Satan didnt exist? I think not.

Ive been thinking about stuff, and perhaps that old saying "Good cannot exist without evil" is true. :( Could be, could also not be.


The historical reasons for the inclusion of the Devil in the Torah - and hence the NT and Quoran - trace back to the founding of Judeaism. Judeaism grew out of the polytheistic, pagan religions, something that is blatantly evident in OT (as a note on the side this raises issues about the validity of Christianity and Islam as well, because they base themselves on the inconsistent Judeaism). Judeaism is basically a pagan cult that got out of hand. And this pagan cult happened to be in opposition to another pagan cult, whose head deity was then portrayed as 'the ultimate evil' - hence the concept of Satan. As the various monotheistic religions grew out of a pagan base and since they have assimilated or eradicated other pagan cults, they have adopted various other pagan traits, such as the concept of lesser gods (angels) or malicious spirits (djinn, daemons).

Im going to stick to my normal arguement:

Just because another religion "before" Judiasm/christianity had an 'evil deity' does NOT mean that they stole the idea (or even adapted it into there religion)

Just because there is no 'proof' that Judiasm was around before certain ancient religions, does not mean that it didnt exist.


*After thinking about it more*

Lets get into this.

If your thinking about Judaism alone, no, that wouldnt have been documented for a while, because the ground rules set by God hadnt been established for thousands of years after mans creation.

It seems like nothing really happend until Moses came on the scene. The Bible tells us that in the time of Noah, Noah was the only man still folliowing God. Therefore, other religions must have been formed. If they werent following God, who were they following? Adam and Eve surley knew of Satan (because he used the serpant to trick them in the Garden of Eden) So it would seem to me that the other religions copied the pre-judiasm knowledge.

Judaism may not have really officially existed or been a religion untill Moses came along. That doesnt mean non of it wasnt true though, just unformed and unmodeled.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1
Well, would people do evil Satan didnt exist? I think not.


I may be wrong but i'm not sure this adds up, i'm not really up to date on the timescales of the bible tho.

When were the angels supposed to have been created? Before "creation" (earth, moon, stars, dark, light etc...) or during or after?

If satan was still working for god at the time of the Job incident, then he hadn't been cast out yet? Was he sneakilly evil even fromt he apple incident, but god only noticed later?

How come satan gets the souls of sinners?

Who is Lucifer? Lucifer is a fallen angel according to Isaiah. Got a bit too proud, and was kicked off the football team. But is "Lucifer" the same as "Satan"? The name appears to be derived from the same root as the Latin word lux meaning light (the light-bringer or son of the morning star). This little piece of information makes him sound like the Greek titan Prometheus, who defied Zeus to bring fire to humankind, and was punished by being stapled to a rock while vultures ate out his liver for all eternity. Sounds also like the Irish fire- and light-god Lugh (notice the similarity) who was a leader of the Tuatha De Danaan. Stewart Farrar cites T.C. Lethbridge in saying that many parish churches that worship St. Michael coincide with places where Lugh would have been worshipped, and Michael is the archangel of fire and light.
...
Some argue that the name Lucifer is merely a transliteration of "son of the morning star", and is not actually a name. More accurate translations of the Bible (such as the NIV) do not use the name Lucifer. This explanation does not serve to clarify whether or not the "son of the morning star" is Satan.

Revelations 12:16 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels;
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[12] Therefore rejoice, yeheavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What is interesting is that in Revelations, the implication is that Satan has been banished to Earth, while Isaiah talks about Lucifer being banished to hell, aka the pit. Maybe Earth is hell? Perhaps the discrepency can be explained by questioning whether or not Satan and Lucifer are the same being.

Interesting, also, that Satan is not identified as the serpent in eden until Revelations 12:9 (end of the first century AD?) This is interesting, though: Richard Marshall says that a Jewish text called The Life of Adam and Eve dating from the first century BC identifies the serpent of eden with Samael, the angel who rebels when God orders the heavenly host to worship Adam. Samael says that "he will build a throne above the stars and proclaim himself the highest of all beings. His angels rally round in agreement, and the Archangel promptly throws them all out of heaven and down into a deep dark dungeon." Also, I haven't much information here, but the second book of Enoch (from the apocrypha?), also from the 1st century BC, refers to this incident and refers to the fallen angels as "the Watchers". This sounds like the story of Satan.

http://www.bcholmes.org/wicca/satan.html)

Seems that, like most stuff from the bible, the more you look into the details the more inconsistencies you find. Is satan the same as lucifer? Is he in hell or earth? Was he samael, michael or someone else? How was there a hell before satan was cast down to it? Is he just "working" for god by carrying out god's will? Is he gods "evil twin" and equal to god? etc...

Originally posted by Kurgan
The term "Satan" means adversary. Jesus even refers to Peter as "you satan" in the New Testament (at a moment when Peter is arguing that it would be better for Jesus not avoid facing crucifixion) meaning an opponent.

Interesting tidbit. Thanks.

Seems that, like most stuff from the bible, the more you look into the details the more inconsistencies you find. Is satan the same as lucifer? Is he in hell or earth? Was he samael, michael or someone else? How was there a hell before satan was cast down to it? Is he just "working" for god by carrying out god's will? Is he gods "evil twin" and equal to god? etc...

"If you have a large and sprawling background setting, it pays not to keep it too tidy." - Andy Chambers

When were the angels supposed to have been created? Before "creation" (earth, moon, stars, dark, light etc...) or during or after?

Angels were created before "creation". And Satan was cast to hadies before "creation" as well.

Oh and Humans is God favored creation. Angels are slaves. Beings to do his bidding. They carry out his tasks for him.

I believe Satan is a actual being.
And Satan was not a liutenate(spelling) of God. He came to God and told God there wan not one person on Earth that would not denouse Him. So God said Job and the rest is history.

I don't know why God would allow Satan to do what He did.

Oh and Lucifer was like the second hand er.. angel. He just got cocky. He was a beautiful angel. And he still is, thats what makes him so appealing. Thats why we have such a sinful world. I'm at work right now but I will have more on this when I get home.

Blessings for know-

Jeremy