I never said 'God is good' in this post. He is, but that doesnt have anything to do with what I'm saying. and if you dont restate them in shorter sentences, I wont respond, your choice. I dont honestly care either way.

You're obviously thicker than I thought. >:

I know you never said "God is good", but if you read my post, then you'll have realised I was using that as an example of what Christians can say. And no, I will NOT repost in "shorter sentences" so your tiny brain can comprehend what I'm saying. It's not my fault you're stupid. >:

Not stupid, just value conveinience. You posted those things most likely so I will answer them, I will not answer them or even read them, if they are all jumbled up.

holla. i would call that ignorant. ;p

also "psycological pain" is not pain. it is more a mental thing, made up by our brains (-> part of our rotten body??). there are ways to get over that..

its still pain, just not physical. and if you dojnt turn from your ways, you can see what kind of pain is in hell. its up to you.

Good thing I believe in reincarnation :D

see.. emotional pain "exists" in or mind which is "in" our brain which again is "controlled" through chemical and physical processes. if there is such thing like hell i will be there without my body, without my brain, without those chemical and physical processes. there cannot be such thing as pain as we know it. so stop talking as if you know what will be. none of us two knows what is really will go on. and noone of us can prove their "theories".

and again, i dont believe in your hell. if you think i will go there it will change nothing for me. and i am a much better than many chistians or mulims or whatever are. so it is totally irrelevant for me if someone thinks i will go to hell (whatever that means). also "believing" would not change my life in any way because i dont have to be sorry for anything i did in my life. maybe because i tend to think before i do things.

You anger me NO END, yaebginn. I wasn't calling your views stupid, I was commenting on the fact that you can't read "long sentences". My points are NOT jumbled up. If you look at them then they are in bullet-point format (I didn't actually do a bullet point but I will now to please your limited mental capacity). >:

If God is all-powerful, can He create an object that's too heavy for Him to lift?
If He is timeless, then how can He think or act outside of time, because time is necessary for thought and act?
If God is all knowing, then that means He knows what you will do tomorrow – and if He knows that, then there is no free will, because you are not free to do what you will do tomorrow. If there is no free will then we are just robots under God.
If God is all-loving, then why is there evil in this world? Either he is loving but unable to fix evil (so not all powerful) or all-powerful but unwilling to fix evil (not all loving).
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?
Why did God allow the Hollocaust?
If God created the universe, then what created him? If we just say that He is neccesary and not contingent, then this is a move that is illogical. It would make more sense to say that the universe itself is neccesary, and to leave God out of it. Therefore God makes no logical sense.

For more, see my previous posts. >:


Also, Rayjones... great point, but there is a scientific theory that suggests that conciousness may "leak out" after you die and be held together at the meta-physical level. I don't full understand it, and it's at very early stages of research, but it's worth keeping your ear to the ground for, and more importantly gives a viable alterntaive from which to argue from.

As a Christian, you accept that God came to Abraham, and you accept as God came to Jesus Christ (in some way or rather), but why do you refuse Muhammed?
It doesn't make any sense. The arguments you use against Muhammed (oh he made it all up) can be used just as well against Jesus Christ and/or Abraham.

The main argument here is over the divinity of Christ. Islam states that Jesus Christ is the prophet of God, and that Christians turned away from God because they worshipped Jesus Christ as a false idol.
Judging by what a lot of you here have said, that criticism seems fair. You are all ignoring God, because you worship Jesus Christ.
God was not pleased with this and so he came to Muhammed to set things straight.

Now if Jesus Christ was the son of God, you'd think he'd know about it from birth. And so you'd think he'd start helping people from the start.
No, the guy did bugger all for 30 years. All his miracle-doing happened when he was middle aged, and lasted about two years or so.
Makes a lot more sense to think that God came to Jesus and told him to do stuff.



If you are to believe in God there is no reason in the world why you should be a Christian. You should be a Muslim.

I am not a Muslim because I do not believe in God.

I think Gabez is taking the God lesson, that's a totally different debate, and one that is much harder, but if you do believe in God, you should be a Muslim. That debate is much easier.


Hahaha "American media is liberal"..

The reason that the media doesn't post anything good about the Iraq invasion... is because there isn't anything good about it. Even your conservative media can't downright lie. Not blatantly, anyway.
American media is conservative or slightly less conservative. Fox News is a joke. We got it after the WTC attacks and it made the event quite amusing.
The reason that American media is conservative is because Americans are conservative and will only buy conservative newspapers or tune in to conservative newstations, and so the media is trying to 'sell the product' so to speak. This in turn makes the Americans even more conservative. It's a viscous circle and it is inevitable with privatised news stations. Only an organisation that has no intention of making a profit will be anything remotely close to objective. And this is why government-funded newspapers are potentially the best way to go.

If you ever watch the BBC or European media, you'd see how conservative your media is.

As for 'everyone knows our president'.

Firstly, no they don't. Yes, Europeans and those in the Middle-East probably do, but there are plenty of people who have no reason to know who he is.

Secondly, they know who he is because they hate him. "Everyone" knows who Hitler is. That doesn't make it a 'good' thing.


As for "America is the youngest country in the world"... uh... what are you talking about.

East Timor is the youngest country in the world. It was founded in 2002.

Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Israel, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania.... all of these countries, and many more, have been founded long after America. They are all 'younger'.


North Korea has the largest military in the world, not America.

America probably has the most nuclear weapons, and chemical and biological weapons. Say, who exactly are we to fear for having weapons of mass destruction?
But as the World Trade Centre attacks showed, all of that is meaningless. America is totally powerless in the "war on terror" and America is doomed to fail, mostly because of people like you. The whole operation cost around $2000, most of which was in renting appartments and vehicles.

All it took was a dozen soldiers willing to give their lives and they took down the American symbol of capitalism. As those towers fell, they changed the world.

And you're kidding yourself if you think it's not going to happen again. Until America drastically changes its foreign policy, it is a sitting duck for attacks. There will be suicide bombings on the streets of Washington before long.

Americans are being slaughtered every day by these same suicide soldiers. All those nukes aren't helping now.

That network of individuals, giving their lives to attack their oppressors, it is they who have the power. For every soldier the Americans kill a dozen more rise up. The struggle will only build up as this generation is raised in hatred; the soldiers fighting now are Cold War veterans, but the soldiers of the future will be a new generation of martyrs. They will be even more deadly as their cause is directed squarely at America, and their tactics are radically different to the outdated warfare of Americans.

Terrorism? It hasn't even started yet.

Originally posted by Gabez
If God can do anything, can He create a square circle?

oh, what a neat question. i would say god cant, but multidimensional chaos maths can.. :D

.. there is a scientific theory that suggests that conciousness may "leak out" after you die and be held together at the meta-physical level.

interesting, indeed. i've heard about that too. maybe it could kinda end up in some kind of "reincarnation" theory. ;)

There was some American scientist in the 20th century that weighed people before and after they died and calculated the weight of the soul.
He concluded that it weights 21 grams.

(It is interesting, but he uses very dubious methods and his findings really have no scientific value)

yes, i'm not even sure if it would have a mass. as a form of energy it mustn't necessarily have one..

I said one of the youngest, which it is. Only a bit over 200 years old. Thats young. The media is very liberal. If you say it's not, you are either ignorant or stupid. A bunch of gays were holding a rally and banging on people's cars and stuff, where was it no the news? Nowhere, because they want you to support gays. If hetro did that, it'd be all over the news. God and Jesus are one in three. They are united into one. Jesus is God on earth, God is God in heaven, and Holy Spirit is God in us. Australia knows our president. Most countries with a source to the outside world has knowledge of our president.

1. I dont know
2. Time is not necessary for thought and act. And he can experience time, it just has no effect on him.
3. It's just like if you were a very predictable person. People can know what you're going to do, but you dont, so that means its still new to you. And if you were a compulsive liar, you can still lie, but the person knows you are lying.
4. He loves and is so loving, that he is willing to let us make our own decisions. We are corrupt, so we make wrong decisions.
5. A square circle doesnt exist, they are two seperate things that are only what they are because they are unlike the other. The question itself is invalid. It's like asking if I can make a blue red.
6. For some event in the future? To fulfill some prophecy? To fulfill his plan? I cant read God's mind. God was just there. Something had to be first, why not God. I dont completely understand it, but I will in Heaven.

Time is neccesary for thought and act. The move you CAN make, however, is that God doesn't need time - but then you have to think whether that's logically impossbile or not, and if it is, then see your answer to 5.

You've also misunderstood 3). If God is all-knowing, then he KNOWS what you will do in the future. He doesn't predict it, he KNOWS. Therefore there is no free will, therefore you cannot say that evil is caused by our free will. (I'm not saying this is actually true, but I'm saying it like it's a fact so that you can mull it over).\

Otherwise, excellent answers. I would urge you to read what else I said, though, please.

Yes, he knows. He knows exactly what we're going to do. But we dont. It's new to us. He's just watching from above. Like watching a re-run of a tv show.

EDIT- Hell is described a bit in the Bible, tahst how I know vaguely what its like. I cant go back in an edit to look what eklse was said, so I'll post another post in another post. oh, and time isnt necessary, if I was trapped on an island with no source of time, in a cave lit by never ending torches, I could still live and think and exist. God is oblivious to time, he created it, he has power over it.

Right, except I sort of showed you that it isn't "one of the youngest" as there are dozens of countries that are a whole lot 'younger'.

Of course, this discussion is utterly pointless as you haven't actually said how being one of the "youngest" is actually a 'good' thing. Is East Timor a whole lot better than America just because it's younger?

Originally posted by Gabez
Okay, I updated my post with more stuff in the time it took you to reply. Go read it again.

The devil is a poor reason for evil. If you must know, then the only philisophically satisfying answer that I know of to the problem of evil is that God wants us to be perfect, and we can only become perfect through free will, therefore God can't intervene with our affairs, therefore evil is allowed, but eventaully everyone will be made perfect and the end will justify the means.

Problems with this: even if we're all perfect in the end, it still doesn't justufy a naked boy of six being ripped apart by hounds whilst his mother watches. There's no reason for that. Problem #2 is that if God is all powerful, surely He can intervine without ruining our free will (debatable, but I won't go into that). Ditto for the Holocaust - that does not sound like the act of an all-loving God, and seriously contradicts itself.

Doomgiver: I see the Bible as a description of ethics rather than an explanation to life the universe and everything (to nick a book title).

God doesnt want us to be perfect, well, he does, but he doesnt expect it. He knows we sin and we have a sin nature. And we will only be perfect in Heaven, not on earth. God didnt create the holocaust and I dont know why he allowed it, maybe for some plan in the future? I'm not God, only he knows.

Originally posted by Mort-Hog
Right, except I sort of showed you that it isn't "one of the youngest" as there are dozens of countries that are a whole lot 'younger'.

Of course, this discussion is utterly pointless as you haven't actually said how being one of the "youngest" is actually a 'good' thing. Is East Timor a whole lot better than America just because it's younger?

It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.

Most people in the US consider anything that seems to the the left of their ideas to be Liberal. There are actually five categories of ideology, not two or three. Listed from left to right, they are:

* Radical
* Liberal
* Moderate
* Republican
* Reactionary

Most Americans label themselves as liberal to conservative. Very few label themselves as radical, while virtually none of them label themselves as reactionary. Many that call themselves conservative actually seem far more reactionary. For example, anybody who seriously agrees with the platforms of either the Libertarian or Reform parties are thoroughly reactionary. Most of the fiery "conservative" show hosts such as O'Rielly or Limbaugh are also more reactionary than conservative. In fact, there really is no major real major news network in the USA that's more liberal than conservative, aside from the BBC, which has only medium liberal leanings. CNN has a mildly conservative stance, while ABC, NBC, and CBS are fully conservative. Of course, ABC is owned by Disney (easily a strongly conservative company), while NBC is owned by General Electric (conservative as well).
Fox, on the other hand, is insanely right-wing. Supporting any administration through all its mistakes is not patriotic; it's favoring dictatorship.


You try reading European newspapers before you claim American media to be "liberal".

why would I read european newspapers? cause they talk about things I care about. (sarcasm) and the media is liberal as mess. ask almost any american and they'd agree. Here' tomorrow, I'll go to the store and ask if the media is liberal to ten or twenty people and give my results. hough I cant prove them, I'm an honorable person, so its up to you whether or not you'd like to believe me.

Okay, so you say God knows exactly what we are going to do. Say, He knows that tomorow you will wear a blue jumper.

So tomorow comes and you bring out of your closet at random two jumpers. One is blue, one is red. You ponder for a while which one to wear, before finally deciding on the blue one - out of your own free will. Or is it? If God already knew, then surely the decision is already made - and thus you had no choice but to choose the blue jumper, thus you had no choice at all.

You have also misunderstood by what I mean by time. You say that if you were trapped on an island "with no source of time" - I pressume you mean a way of telling the time, like a clock. This isn't what I mean at all. Clocks are not time, they simply measure time.

Imagine seeing the world from 2 dimensions instead of 3. To see an object move would look like:

--
----
------
----
--

etc. etc. It is passing through time, and needs time in order to move. Time is simply progress of things. Without time nothing can function. I hope this makes it clearer.

God wants us to love and worship him, and become "like his image" (BADLY misquoted - I'm sorry but I don't have a Bible near me), and the only way to do that is through free will, as perfection can not come ready made. We will be perfect in heaven, yes, but in order for that to be so, we need to have the chance to sin against God in earth - if that makes any sense.

I don't think it's good enough to say "Dunno about the Hollocaust" - I suggest you visit Auswitches (sp) and then think about it.

Also, I have a personal question, just out of interest: do you believe in the Bible word for word? I'm not trying to make a point here, I'm just curious.

On the subject of America: don't forget that the country has had a lot of advantages other "crappy" (meaning inferior) countries have not had. Lots of fresh land, lots of immigrants bringing skills, democracy (because said immigrants wanted more freedom), the combination of many states etc. etc. I could go on. You could easily see America as Britain's lovechild, or something. Anyway, the point is that we are all global citizens of this earth. Think of it like a playground. A group of kids who used to be in Britain, France, spain etc.'s gang have joined their own gang and done very well. Egypt is the old caretaker who is being made fun of by the child gangs. The European powers are the older boys, but they don't have the strenght of youth anymore, but they're becoming more united. etc. etc.

Originally posted by yaebginn
It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old.


It's terribly amusing that a Christian makes that claim. They do totally reject Jesus Christ, you know.
Israel was founded illegally, the state of Israel shouldn't even exist. The founding of Israel is what has brought instability to the entire region and it is the atrocities committed by the war criminal Sharon that worsen this instability. Israel is at the heart of the struggle.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "got so far".
Economically, Japan and China probably have much greater economic growth rates than America has ever had.
But it isn't like America has managed anything on its own. Exploitation of other countries is the prime mover of American foreign policy, and were it not for the illegal labour of Asian sweatshops, the American economy would implode. China and Japan have managed their economic achievements on their own.

Socially, America is awfully backwards. America desperately clings on to way outdated values and traditions. I think I've covered this point in depth.

And yes, an awful lot of people would take offense to being called "crappy" countries, and rightly so. I think it is a perfect example of how Americans percieve the rest of the world, and a perfect example of why the world hates America.
I have travelled to many of the former Soviet states, and to various Middle-Eastern countries, and I very much enjoyed my stay there. They were lovely countries, and I would certainly enjoy living there, if I could get used to the climate.

Western culture is terribly individualistic, you look out for number one, it's a dog eat dog world, every man is out for himself, etc. Middle-Eastern culture is very community-based, a very social culture. I once took a camel ride through a small village in Egypt, and I found that on the corner of every other street, there was a barrel. This barrel had water in it, and a metal cup next to it. Anyone could come and drink from it and no-one paid anything. Some bloke would have to fill up this barrel every morning, but he wouldn't get any money for it.
In the west, this would seem ridiculous, getting something for free, without a catch, but in Egypt this was normal, because everyone looks after everyone else.

I liked that.

Originally posted by yaebginn
It is among the youngest. But it just shows how good it is. It is so young, yet got so far. Israel for one has God on its side. and I dont get what you mean, Mort. Egypt was around since Bible times, same with Israel. and alot of those countries are crappy, (no offense, though alot of you will probably fake offense) America is a great country and only a little over 200 years old. Stupid american, I guess you don't know anything outside your own country. This statement does not mean all americans are stupid, only the likes of you.

Israel was founded illegally, the state of Israel shouldn't even exist. The founding of Israel is what has brought instability to the entire region and it is the atrocities committed by the war criminal Sharon that worsen this instability. Israel is at the heart of the struggle.The f*ck are you talking about? It was very legally! There was a UN vote and all.

Originally posted by yaebginn
why would I read european newspapers? cause they talk about things I care about. (sarcasm) and the media is liberal as mess. ask almost any american and they'd agree. Here' tomorrow, I'll go to the store and ask if the media is liberal to ten or twenty people and give my results. hough I cant prove them, I'm an honorable person, so its up to you whether or not you'd like to believe me.


Read my post.

The reason you'd read European newspapers is so you'd actually get an idea of what's going on in the world.

Just because they say the media is liberal doesn't make it so.
The reason Americans would say the media is liberal is because they're stupid. It isn't liberal at all.

It's only because you're so used to crazy super right-wing conservatism that anything slightly less conservative is instantly branded 'liberal'.

Read my post.

And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. back up what you say, tfighter. Dont call someone stupid, then not explain why. And Israel may be mostly jewish, not believing in Jesus, but Israel is largely popular in the Bible and Jesus lived there. Ever hear of free samples? But some of the Mid. East is good, but alot is bad. Just like everywhere. And you get onto me for looking down on other countries! You are just the same way, Mort. But with America.

Originally posted by yaebginn
And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. back up what you say, tfighter. Dont call someone stupid, then not explain why. And Israel may be mostly jewish, not believing in Jesus, but Israel is largely popular in the Bible and Jesus lived there. Ever hear of free samples? But some of the Mid. East is good, but alot is bad. Just like everywhere. And you get onto me for looking down on other countries! You are just the same way, Mort. But with America. I don't look down at America, I know a lot of americans, most of them are ok.

And you know what? I believe in what Jesus meant to do, not what the christians turned it into.

I was actually talking to Mort. And When I called the countries crappy, I meant most besides the ones mentioned. I probably should have clarified that.

For all of you wondering what Hell might be like read
Gehenna. Excellent book! Tells what Hell is most like, even mentions Dante'. I would advise though that Gehenna IS NOT FOR CHILDREN! I, a teen, read it and parts even disgusted me.
Other then that it is excellent. Of course Gehenna is nowwhere near how horrible Hell really is....


Lyrnx

it intrigues me. I'll have to give it a look. thanx for the suggestion.

Originally posted by yaebginn
I was actually talking to Mort. And When I called the countries crappy, I meant most besides the ones mentioned. I probably should have clarified that. It's just that by saying crappy, you show that you know nothing about it. Probably all you know is that they're dictatorships, hell, that's about all I know. You can't really judge any country, even an arab country, before you've been there. Note that I have no intention to go to any arab country ever.

You ahve been MOST busy while i was sleeping. Can someone give me a quick recap of what's going on?

I would never be so blatantly ignorant as to describe any country as "crappy".

Nor would I be so blatantly arrogant as to describe any country as "best".

I am simply outlining the negative aspects of America, of which there are numerous. My posts are in response to yours.



Note that I have no intention to go to any arab country ever.


Right, and this alone is proof that anything you have to say about Arab countries is utterly meaningless. And it is also proof of how effective the anti-arab propaganda is in America.

Not only do you soak up the heavily distorted picture of those countries you see, but even when you accept that distortion you have no interest in actually finding out what they are like.

Why do you have no intention of visiting the Middle East?

They all have lovely climates, if you choose the time of year carefully. The red sea is great for going diving. Libya is opening its borders and has an interesting mix of socialist and Muslim culture that I very much hope to experience before it becomes too touristy. Egypt is particularly fascinating, with its ancient history, and I would advise everyone to visit Egypt at least once in their life.
Yes, there are some countries that you probably won't get into, like Iran, or Saudi Arabia. You definitely won't get into Mecca in Saudio Arabia.


As for Israel...

It is World War 1, and Britain and Germany are at war. Germany is essentially defeating Britain, but cannot afford to continue and so is trying to negociate peace with Britain. They want to go back to what it was like before the war. Britain is seriously considering this option, but then the Jews come along. The World Zionist Organisation say to Britain that they can get America to enter the war and defeat Germany, if Britain gives them Palestine.
Britain agrees, even though Britain had no claim to Palestine at all. Britain was giving the WZO land that didn't belong to them. That is illegal.

Even so, you cannot deny the current illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal construction work of the wall across the Gaza strip.

Right, and this alone is proof that anything you have to say about Arab countries is utterly meaningless. And it is also proof of how effective the anti-arab propaganda is in America.This alone makes your argumant about me meaningless, cuz I live in Israel. You know it's not very safe for an Israeli to go to an arab country.

The UN agreement was to devide Israel\Palastine into two countries, and arab country and Israel. The arabs weren't cool with that and attacked us. We won. Simple as that.

Why would anyone want to go to the middle east its like a beach without water. I tell you what if I lived there I would be pissed at the world too. Nothing but sand, I actually feel sorry for the people over there.

Mort, you say that if we believe in God we should follow Islam, but what did Muhammed ever do? Jesus healed tons of people, he was a kind person who just asked for people to folow him and love God, he wanted nothing else. He even rose from the dead. What did Muhammed do that was so great? Did he rise from the dead...if not what can be more powerful than that?

another theing Mort, you said earlier that terrosim has just begun adn that tons of suicide bombers will terorise us. Then you talk about Germany and Britin in WWI. Do not speak of both things. The Germans (who I am not defending) in WWI and WWII fought with honor directly in front of their enemy. The Muslims faith fights like P*ssies. I mean yall want to win by sneaking around, that bs. I mean who in the right mind will be told to go kill themselves says, "hell yea great idea, I am going to go kill myself" wow. fight like you have a pair

Americans are voer there standing in the middle of the road with his M16 waiting for someone to come out and challenge them, but no you go around and crawl up on your hands and knees and blow yourself up. What can get more lame than that?

1 other thing, you think that we are becoming afraid of you. But i have more and more friends going into the military just so they can get a chance to kill a couple turban heads

edit: yes i do mean the terrorist muslims (sorry just used to genral of a term)

Hey! First off: You are aclling all muslims pussies! You mean to say: All terrorrists that blow themselves up are pussies.

Muslims have this thing called 'jihad' or holy ar, and if you die during the holy war, you go straight to heaven. that's why they blow themselves up. It's easy, efficient, and they go stright to heaven. They are int heir right minds, only they're not afraid to die.

But i have more and more friends going into the military just so they can get a chance to kill a couple turban heads

That is a lame reason and i do hope you mean terrorrists by that.

Originally posted by B1GC
Why would anyone want to go to the middle east its like a beach without water. I tell you what if I lived there I would be pissed at the world too. Nothing but sand, I actually feel sorry for the people over there.
What a jolly show of ignorance :D

The only beach I know have water, not like I've seen it lately, cuz I'm a geek and all, but it's only a few minutes away. Yes, there is a desert in Israel, it's called the negev. But if you look to the north it's all green. :D

Oh right. Yes, it probably isn't a good idea for Jews to travel in the Middle East, even less so Israelis. But lots of people hate Jews, not just Arabs.



Mort, you say that if we believe in God we should follow Islam, but what did Muhammed ever do? Jesus healed tons of people, he was a kind person who just asked for people to folow him and love God, he wanted nothing else. He even rose from the dead. What did Muhammed do that was so great?


No, Muhammed didn't do any Jesus-style parlour tricks and didn't have to bribe followers with cheap 'miracles'. Muhammed personally is irrelevant, he never claimed to be the son of God, he never claimed to live forever, he never claimed to be any more than an honest merchant.
All he did was speak forth the word of God, and he changed the world just by that word. He didn't have to conjour up some tricks to try and 'prove' himself. It was not Muhammed that made a difference, it was God. Muhammed was merely his messenger.
I think it is a tribute to the power of Islam that people follow him simply by his word, and did not need magic tricks to see that he was speaking the word of God.



Americans are voer there standing in the middle of the road with his M16 waiting for someone to come out and challenge them, but no you go around and crawl up on your hands and knees and blow yourself up. What can get more lame than that?


This is the new age of war.

You forget that these soldiers are killing themselves for their cause. They are willingly giving their own lives. Think about that. You believe in things, I'm sure, believe in things strongly. Strongly enough to blow yourself up over it?

The American soldiers might consider themselves "patriots" because they are fighting for their country. Yes, they are willing to kill for their cause, but are they willing to die?
They are putting themselves in a position where they are likely to die, yes, but that is certainly not the same thing as actually killing yourself.
If American soldiers were told that they had to carry a bomb right up to a target and detonate themselves, do you seriously think many would do that?

Throughout history, Americans military tactics have always been in order to prevent American deaths, and the actual cause for fighting has come second.

In Vietnam, Americans bombed thousands of Vietnamese because a dozen of them might be Vietcong. They took civilian Vietnamese lives in order to protect American soldiers.

In Korea, Americans bombed hundreds of refugees, the infamous Kill-em-all tactic, because they were afraid that Chinese might be hiding within them. They took civilian Korean lives in order to protect American soldiers.

In Iraq, Americans bombed thousands of Iraqi civilians, in the Shock-and-Awe campaign and others, because they were afraid that resistance fighters might be among them.
The most notable example of this is where Americans found a large group of people firing weapons into the air in a remote area of Iraq. They were afraid that they were resistance fighters, and they bombed them all. They later discovered that it was a wedding party, and they were setting off fireworks.
If the Americans had sent out one or two American soldiers in a car to find out exactly what it was, they would have saved those Iraqi civilians. Yes, if they were resistance fighters the Americans would probably have been killed, but they are soldiers and that is their job. But it is because the Americans are willing to do anything in order to prevent American military fatalities that is the cause of such ridiculous civilian death tolls.

In the style of war that Americans (and pretty much everyone else too) are used to is the standard military encounter of enemy soldiers advancing across a battlefield and your soldiers move towards them and they fight (yes, there are countless tactics such as moving in across the flanks and such but that is essentially it). The one that kills the enemy wins.

That age of war is over. This is the new age of war.

This is suicide guerella war.

The Americans are fighting an enemy that are willing to kill themselves fighting. They are totally willing to die. How can you possibly fight against that?
And this is a war not of individuals, but of causes. This is like the Cold War, except this is actually war.
For the Americans, protecting individual soldiers is the key. For the resistance fighters, individuals are irrelevant. Osama bin Laden is not important. If he is killed, it will make no difference. For every fighter that is killed, a dozen more will join the cause, and it is that cause, that hatred for America, that is the key.
The children of those slaughtered by the Americans at that wedding party, can you imagine how they will grow up? They will grow up without parents or siblings because of the Americans. They will grow up desperately hating America, and willing to do everything in their power to attack it. The Americans have already spawned the suicide bombers of the future.

What is more "lame"? The soldier that merely sits in his plane and presses a button, or the fighter that carries a bomb right up to his target and detonates himself.

What is more "lame"? The soldier that joined the army just to get some extra money to get through college, or the fighter that joined the cause with nothing but determination and hatred?

What is more "lame"? The soldier that has millions of dollars of technology at his disposal, or the fighter that uses his body as a weapon?

The answers are not actually important, because the cause is always growing in size, growing in hatred and growing in determination, this is why the Americans will surely lose.

Fighting the "war on terror" with old-style military tactics is not working. It will not work and it cannot work.

Unless something changes in American foreign policy, America will lose.

Perhaps it is already too late.

Oh right. Yes, it probably isn't a good idea for Jews to travel in the Middle East, even less so Israelis. But lots of people hate Jews, not just Arabs.The fact that you're a f*cking nazi doesn't mean the whole world is. I think the people from www.racist-jokes.com) are missing you you stupid ****.

Originally posted by yaebginn
And as I said in a prev. post, God does experience time, he just insnt effected by it. *sigh* I'm not questioning the nature of the Judeo-Christian God. I know that. I know that He is not effected by time, but you are missing my point. Read my post properly.

... Or I might as well give up, because if you're not going to read and understand what I'm saying, then there's no point.

About the countries thing: c'mon, people. All countries and people are equal - just some governments work "better" than others. Just because the US is currently doing very well doesn't mean that it's superior in the world. Just look at history - America is onlu enjoying a brief spell of success.

Also, FighterPilot - I might be wrong, but I think you've misunderstood Mort. :~

Originally posted by Gabez
*sigh* I'm not questioning the nature of the Judeo-Christian God. I know that. I know that He is not effected by time, but you are missing my point. Read my post properly.

... Or I might as well give up, because if you're not going to read and understand what I'm saying, then there's no point.

About the countries thing: c'mon, people. All countries and people are equal - just some governments work "better" than others. Just because the US is currently doing very well doesn't mean that it's superior in the world. Just look at history - America is onlu enjoying a brief spell of success.

Also, FighterPilot - I might be wrong, but I think you've misunderstood Mort. :~ I doubt it, the man supports terrorism.

thats what I got out of it. And blowing themselves up fopr a cause, what a load of crap! They think that when they die they will get 70 something virgins. Do the math! Men dont outnumber women that much, especially women who've never had sex. There is no logic. Suicide bombers arent heroic, there are ignorant. Even like with Israel vs. Palaestine. Israel's been holding it's hold since way beofre I was born. I actually was considering going down there, but with the war and all, I can't until I turn 18. (House Rules) This guy went there and told me how awesome it was. Hey, tfighter do you know Hebrew?

Originally posted by yaebginn
thats what I got out of it. And blowing themselves up fopr a cause, what a load of crap! They think that when they die they will get 70 something virgins. Do the math! Men dont outnumber women that much, especially women who've never had sex. There is no logic. Suicide bombers arent heroic, there are ignorant. Even like with Israel vs. Palaestine. Israel's been holding it's hold since way beofre I was born. I actually was considering going down there, but with the war and all, I can't until I turn 18. (House Rules) This guy went there and told me how awesome it was. Hey, tfighter do you know Hebrew? LMAO! That must be the stupidest question EVER! :D

Let's ask now someone from france if he know french :D

The whole "America is the best country in the world" really irks me. Just WHY is it better than other countries?

Erm... like i asked before, can someone tell me what the heck you've been talking about in my absence? Anyway, about america being the best: That's one of the things we're discussing. Man, the topic's all over the place.

ooh, is that a piece of filosify on the floor there?

By the way, Yaeb, why are you so pro-american, you said you live in Denmark, and you talked Dutch very weird :)

Was that on purpose?

Actually, I said I wa smoving to denamrk, I'm not now, though. I love the Hebrew language. I heard some lady sing in it once, its beautiful.

I bet... Though i haven't. Let's see if there's something for me to say to get back on topic... hmmm, no.

Well, let's just get back on topic then.

Here's some more Philosophy of Religion for you:

"Are things good because God says they are, or does God simply command things which are good?"

If the former is true, then God will be theoretically able to say ANYTHING is good. So He might make murder "good" - but does that really make it good?

If the latter is the case, then God Himself adhears to a set of external laws of morality, which is against the nature of the God of classical theism, because there is nothing greater than God. Nothing above Him. He answers to nothing. And yet a set of moral laws which even He follows would suggest that there is.

I'll just stress that the points I am raising are key philoshopical dilemas that have been debated for thousands of years (the above was thought up by Plato, for instance) - so please don't just say "Ah, but God is good!" or words to that effect.

Heh, nice new sig... right from this very thread:D

Oh, i know a way to get abck on topic: About the tiem, and free will thing. What if God sees you will wear a blue jacket tomorrow, and then you go to your closet, and decide to take the red one. You see, as Yoda said so nicely before me, 'always in motion, the future is.' because 'the future' is created as we make desicions. And there is no way of knowing what those desicions will be if you do not make them.

erm, Tfighterpilot, you probably DID misunderstand Mort.There's no indication of him being Neo-nazi in any of the posts i read, he's just saying that there ARE many Neo-nazi's and racists in the world.

Originally posted by Doomgiver
Heh, nice new sig... right from this very thread:D

Oh, i know a way to get abck on topic: About the tiem, and free will thing. What if God sees you will wear a blue jacket tomorrow, and then you go to your closet, and decide to take the red one. You see, as Yoda said so nicely before me, 'always in motion, the future is.' because 'the future' is created as we make desicions. And there is no way of knowing what those desicions will be if you do not make them.

erm, Tfighterpilot, you probably DID misunderstand Mort.There's no indication of him being Neo-nazi in any of the posts i read, he's just saying that there ARE many Neo-nazi's and racists in the world. Yeah, nazi isn't the word, I meant pro terrorist.

To bring some humor to this thread
http://www.kgov.com/gallery/20010911/terrorist-on-fire.jpg)

Uhm, no, he's just making a good point. He just compares the terrorrists with the americans.

Actually, he's also wrong. He says that Americans have bombed innocent people a lot because they didn't want to send in soldiers that may have gotten hurt. But terrorrists also blow up everything in a wide area. two american soldiers in a flat full of civilians, a terrorrist wanting to blow them up, the entire flat goes down. It's the same.

But he's not really supporting terrorrists, he's saying that the American way of fighting is stupid.

A wedding party... sucks to be them.



But i hafta admit, funny pic. but the text with it is even better :D