Ok, while we've had limited success with the Open Jedi Project as a community based development platform, I think we need to bump things up a notch.

I fear that the Project seems to be tilting into Razor-Ace-Lord-and-Tyrant's-Uber-Mod and that's somewhere I don't want it to go.

I think we need to make a more active effort to inform the active modders of the community about the OJP concept and try to get them on board and, if nessicary, recreate or reform the project to better suit the desires of the community's modders.

To start, I'm going to attempt to get as many modders involved in the discussion as possible. If you have contact information for your favorite modders please PM the addresses to me. I'll then attempt to contact them.

Since this is trying to be a community effort, we're going to be operating under a flag of trace and friendship. Please hold off on the petty bickering and try to forgive. I will try to as well. :)

Thanks,
Razor Ace

Im in -
Anakin
Project Leader -

Attack Of The Clones TC / Clone Wars Project

Ok how about we start with what sort of things everyone would be interested in guards to community cooperation? When you pop into the discussion, please discribe how you are, what you do, and what project you work on/for.

I'll start. I'm Razor Ace, I'm a coder, and I currently work on the OJP project.

Here's what I think we need to get out of all this...

We need to ensure that proper credit is given to all parties.
We need to not be a exclusive club. Newbies should have access to everything the rest of us do.
We need to be able to openly discuss moding designs and issues so that we can come up with the best solution possible.
We need to have some way to easily store and exhange code and source materials. I suggest some sort of CVS repository.
We need to cooperate so that we don't waste time by constantly cloning features.

Ok, I'm going to post the OJP readme here so people can see what we're already come up with from the previous decisions on the subject.

===================
0001 - Introduction
===================

The Open Jedi Project is a coding/modding collaboration with the intent of maximizing the features and fun factor for all Jedi Knight Academy (JKA) mods. We work together by contributing fun, interesting, and useful game features so that everyone can benefit.

We operate on what's basically an open source system. Open source basically means that the source code is freely available and accessible by all. See the "Using Our Work" section for details about rights and permissions.

Our design philosophy is to make everything as separated and customizable as possible to allow developers and players to choose what features they wish to use.

We currently have two distributions (gameplay/code changes), Basic and Enhanced. We also have two packs (non-gameplay related), Vehicles and Skins.

Basic has two main features. One is bug fixes and balance fixes, neither which will severely alter game play. They are designed to be the "unofficial patch" for bugs and game play problems. Basic can still be considered vanilla Jedi Academy. The other main feature is map enhancements. Things such as new entities, expanded AI, vehicles, scripting and effects system can allow mappers to create far more immersive and fun maps. Since Basic also aims towards recreating all the single player entities and code, it is possible for mappers to create full featured cooperative and single player games and levels using the multiplayer engine. This allows modders to make other enhancements such as new weapons, AI, etc., not possible using the single player engine.

Enhanced is a superset of Basic, meaning it has anything and everything included in the Basic distribution. The difference is that it adds many significant gameplay alterations. It is a playable mod, but also a code base for other developers. To decrease the possibility of mods based off Enhanced loosing originality, we are keeping our game play feature list generic and flexible. New features will be generic, expandable, and flexible so other developers can easily adopt them to their mods. It won't venture out side of Jedi Academy's principle game play, so there won't be anything that makes this drastically unique in terms of pure game play. Players get a full mod that shares the same basic principles and ideas that stock Jedi Academy offers. Developers get a solid, flexible code base that includes the basic, fundamental features you would want to find in most mods, allowing them to spend their time on what makes their work truly unique. An example of a feature for Enhanced would be an extended version of the player class system seen in Siege, one that is available in more game types, and is far more flexible.

The Vehicles package is a collection of additional vehicles for JKA. We're including them in the project to allow OJP compatible maps to use additional vehicles without having to include said vehicles in their release packages.

The Skins package is a collection of quality modder created skins that have been turned
into customizable player classes. We've done this to allow more player options, to
allow SP useage of these skins, to allow servers and players to quickly get a pack of
quality skins, and to prevent a lot of redundent data from clogging up your game
directory.

We have a web forum set up for OJP. You can find it at...
http://www.lucasforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=542)

We have a website pending. Please be patient.


=====================
0005 - Using Our Work
=====================

We have few rules for using our work as part of your own projects:

- You must include this readme in any public releases of your mod. This doesn't apply if you're only using OJP features that you wrote yourself.
- You must treat your fellow coders and the project with respect.
- You may NOT use our work for ANY commercial purposes without the author's direct permission.

Please don't violate these rules; they are here for everyone's benefit.

We have a public CVS repository set up to let you directly access the OJP source materials to keep up-to-date with latest additions to the project. However, the process to access the repository is a bit complicated, so please email one of the moderators for assistance.

In addition, we are still waiting for the MP SDK so there will probably not be anything to see for a while anyway.

We suggest that you:

- Submit any cool features from your work that you think other developers may benefit from.
- Keep in contact with us about your project. The more information we have, the better we can coordinate OJP to help you and the community. We also like to know that people are using and enjoying our works.



==============================
0006 - Submitting Stuff to OJP
==============================


We are looking mostly for new code features, but are not limited to that. We are usually looking for generic, flexible, and adaptable features that anyone can work into their own code. Features that are drastically unique or special probably do not belong here, because we believe in keeping individuality and uniqueness among mods.

We also accept patches. If you see something in our code that has a problem, you can submit a patch for it. A patch would usually be replacement code or files.

Before you consider submitting, take note that we won't let you desubmit or remove your works from the project. Allowing people to do so would cause too many problems for the project. While your work will remain your work, submitting stuff to OJP means that you give us the rights to use your work and modify it freely as part of the project forever.

In addition, your work won't necessarily be turned on or even in every compiled version of OJP. Some features will be disabled by default to allow people to just fire up and play OJP without confusion.

That being said, if you have something to submit just contact one of the OJP moderators.

DO NOT E-MAIL MOD MATERIALS TO STAFF MEMBERS WITHOUT ASKING FIRST! Just contact one of us, tell us a summary of your patch or feature, and if we think it fits the project, we'll accept it.

If you think you would like to actively participate in developing OJP, we can give you write access to the CVS repository, so that you may work on it yourself. This doesn't have to be a commitment, but if you would like to just submit features or patches separately, go ahead.


------------------------------
0006.1 - Submission Guidelines
------------------------------

- Document your work as much as possible. Be sure to add mentions of your work in the readme and other project documents.

- Make your work as clean and tight as possible.

- Follow the coding guidelines. Try to keep your code as separated from other code as is reasonable. Label EVERY coding change (from basejka) with appropriate coding tags. If you're creating a new feature, you'll get to determine what the tag name will be. Try to pick something that is simple and easy to search for.

- NEVER DELETE FILES/DIRECTORIES/ETC FROM THE CVS REPOSITORY. If it is necessary, the moderators will handle it.

I'm always on board.

Keshire, I do a little bit of everything, And I do a little work for any that ask or whatever strikes my fancy.

* We need to be able to openly discuss moding designs and issues so that we can come up with the best solution possible.
* We need to cooperate so that we don't waste time by constantly cloning features.
* And I believe we need to bring both casual gamers and hardcore gamers back into the fold. Something along the same popularity lines as CounterStrike.

Originally posted by keshire
* And I believe we need to bring both casual gamers and hardcore gamers back into the fold. Something along the same popularity lines as CounterStrike.

Well, I'm against directed development since people have proven that they VERY often don't do squat if you direct them to do something instead of them wanting to do it themselves.

However, I beleive that this (a casual/hardcore game) will be the result if we make sure that every feature added is as good as it can be.

...albeit with a small leave of absense, I am also on board!

I want to get back onto working on more features of the new vehicle inplementation, as well as porting over a few features from MBII development that I think could make sense to include into the OJP too.

You can consider me 'on board' - I am mostly just a thinker at this point, although I try to actually write code from time to time.

I'm here as well. I am supposed to be OJP's webmaster, but I have been away for quite a while due to changing ISPs and not being able to access LF (at all!?!) for a few weeks. I am also the author of MCM and ConfigED, some scripting utilities.

Originally posted by Samuel Dravis
I'm here as well. I am supposed to be OJP's webmaster, but I have been away for quite a while due to changing ISPs and not being able to access LF (at all!?!) for a few weeks. I am also the author of MCM and ConfigED, some scripting utilities.

Ok, I suggest you go talk to Anakin since it sounds like we're going to be moving the website over to their server.

Anyway, it looks like we got a deal with AotC to have their code be intergrated into OJP and then use OJP as the base for the AotC mod.

Wait, I thought you said the guys at AOTC were crazy? :)

Originally posted by keshire
Wait, I thought you said the guys at AOTC were crazy? :)

LIKE A FOX!!!

Anyway, yes, I have given the AotC staff a very hard time in the past, but I'm trying to work past for the sake of community cooperation.

Yeah always giving me a hard time.... :D

Alright....I figured this would fit best under this post....I'm new to OJP and if you guys don't stone me to death by the end of the week I'll be impressed. I've got almost no idea how to make or animations or modifications....although I have made some good looking skins....I never was able to make em playable for MP.....I know the tech side my be pathetic but I have played many differant games and many differant mods in the Dark Forces series. I am also a fencer and my neighbors are always practicing kendo outside...the grunting can get annoying...I'm willing to help in any way possible for somone with the limited mod capabiliies of myself...I intend to start modding over the summer...now that I have free time...but I doubt I'll ever be the calibur to help in a project like this. Any advice anyone can give me I"m open too...Dbl90 out :fett:

So exactly what sort of things would you like to do?

Anything I can do I'm open to help in any way possible...right now I'm trying to join in on the brain storming....but if I can help in any other way...I'd be glad to....

You can...

Learn C. Fun if you're into such things (I am ;)).

Learn mapping. Very easy, actually, just tedious. I'm trying to make a siege map right now, playing around with it. :cool:

Learn Modeling. Make the cool stuff that should go into the skins pack.

Learn Skinning. Skins pack again. Fun to do, I've made some attempts myself, although flesh tones are hard to get right...

Learn animating. I actually have no idea how this is done, but it's bound to be interesting. Also, you get the adoration of the community. Just look at Keshire... :D

Help with the website. Well, I don't really need any help right now (unless you know PHP), but you can offer it. :p

If you can model animating is just as easy. Sometimes easier if you know what you want.

Well, I'd realy like to do all of those ...what would decide it for me is how much help I can get in each subject and the level of difficulty...I figure I'd like to get modeling and animation one day...but you have to learn to walk before you can run..

Do you have any level of familiarity with any 3d suite? 2d? Any coding experiance?

I've messed around with coding..I have no idea what I am doing...I back things up, mess around, and then while I'm trying to figure somthing out kill them...3d suite can't so....2d suite I do a bit of graphics art in terms of Adobe Photoshop and Paint...I've got a baisic knowledge of that....I've done a bit of level building in the original Jedi Knight....they were intresting....

Ick. Well once wudan gets his Dragon project done animation should be fairly easy. right now you'd be limited to either owning max or softimage. Or trying to get familiar with the free version of softimage released for half life 2. Which I think should work for JKA too.

Yes I think ICK describes everything perfectly..a.nd I found a smiley that describes me perfectly :newbie:

Well, there's a lot of stuff you could do. I've just posted a sticky on this subject. You can find that thread here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130964).

Ok, I been lurking the project for a while, and I have decided I would like to get involved. I have a pretty good background in C, but I am more interested in working with skin packs and animation...I havent had any real game modeling or skinning experience other than toying around with the original JK, but I am very skilled at 2d image editing, and have experience with Maya for 3d editing and limited animation...but I would be willing to invest some time into other packages if necessary...

That's great.

However, at the moment I could really use some help doing a bunch of ICARUS scripting modification. The process is easy and the changes are minor. The only reason why I need assistance is because we're going to have to make these changes to each camera script in the game. BTW, this is for the CoOp mode.

Ok, if you could send me some details, perhaps I could take a look, and if I am able to help, I'll start there.

Noted. I need a little more time to get things ready. In the meanwhile, please use my contact information listed in the OJP to get in contact with me over email and/or IM services.

Just to let you Know Razor, there are still people willing to help out in various ways.


keshire: Razor is more than willing to accomadate people
keshire: And if not I'll make him

Unique1: hahaha.. you cant make razor do anything, even when its in his best interrest he always likes to believe hes right

keshire: But thats not really what I'm concerned with. Just posting on the OJP boards on what needs to be done would be helpful. And then if its inline with your own plans then do it

Unique1: razor has access to the aotc cvs and ive told him he can use my work

keshire: Well ok. I'll take your word for it


keshire says:
I DON'T scratch his back if its not in OJP code, BUT, I pretty much expect the same from you

keshire says:
some implemtations should be given to Razor, Its the onyl right thing to do

Richie says:
yeah no problem. WHatever Razor wants, Razor can have

keshire says:
You might want to offer it to him before he drops OJP all together, It's pretty obvious that thats whats coming next

Richie says:
the only issue I would have isn't giving this stuff out, it's the time taken personally to merge stuff into the OJP code.. well - ok - I'll talk to him and try and work something out..

keshire says:
OJP is a great boon to the community. And if it weren't for razor animation wouldn't be happening right now

Richie says:
yeah -I undertstand that. I will talk to him. But let me explain something here.. I've talked to Razor about using MB stuff in OJP before a lot of the MB stuff is class-based right?

keshire says:
Yes I understand that some won't mesh

Richie says:
Mand rockets, SBD, Arc trooper etc. for me to give any code to OJP which makes sense, I have to code in a complete class system to OJP?! Which undoubelty - once I was done - he'd go 'Oh actually - no - II wasn't imagining quite that..' so while I'm more than ready to contribute what I can, it's not actually an easy task.. it would take a substantial chunk of my time to do so

keshire says:
But I'm not asking for a miracle here just some cooperation to benefit everyone

Richie says:
well - like I said, I'll talk to him

keshire says:
Thats all I ask

Richie says:
but to be fair, he's not the esiest man to talk to soimetimes. Miight help if your in the conv. too Kesh

Richie says:
Because I understand totally what your saying

keshire says:
Sure anytime we're all on at once feel free to drag me in

Richie says:
OJP deserves to have stuff. And if it wasn't gonna be such a ball-ache, I'd freely give it

keshire says:
I completely understand

Richie says:
heh - ok you gonna include the bit about Razor being 'not the easiest man to speak to sometimes' bit

keshire says:
Yep, from both sides.

But we all still love you Razor :D

Thanks for trying to drum up support Keshire, but I don't think anything is going to happen. When it comes down to it, you and me have done 98% of the submissions and merging work.

Not that's a bad thing, it's just contary to the original purpose of OJP.

People aren't willing to put forth the effort get access to the OJP code and then either use it or submit material. There's some things we can probably do to improve things but I don't think anyone is interested anymore.

Hell, people don't even go to the effort of posting to let anyone else know what they're working on.

Frankly, I'm not going to manually merge code anymore since it literally requires me to learn the submission's code and then do the merging. When I do that, it practically means I could have just done the code myself and not have to worry about credit issues or the whining.

Secondly, whenever I go to the effort of actually packaging things up for the public, I just get more complaining and/or "requests" and no support in terms of real help or server support.

As a open ended development platform, OJP is a failure. People just aren't willing to get involved.

As a project for my personal enjoyment, it's done well. However, as a personal project, it relies solely on me for it's existance.

As for individual complains:

Phunk: I don't have a problem with a player class system being implimented for OJP. However, you said yourself that your system doesn't work outside of the customized Siege gametype.

If you're actually interested in doing the work, I'd have no problem with you implimenting all your MB stuff as a seperate gametype for OJP.

However, unless you're willing to discuss the player class system as a group and impliment the group's compromise, you shouldn't expect it to be universally applied to OJP.

Unique: OJP isn't set up as a staff pool for your RPG gametype. I know you're really stoked about it but I'm just not interested. You're free to work on it and even work it as a new gametype for OJP. However, I'm not going to be doing the dirty work for such a gametype.

Well - my only (small) complaint was that your not the easiest man to talk to sometimes ;)
...the rest of it was just explaining to Keshire why OJP doesn't contain half my code right now. It's not because I dont' want to give it out to OJP, it's just the time and effort involved.

...I'm not complaining about it - just trying to explain the situation - and make it clear I haven't given it out because I just want to hoard it for myself...


Phunk: I don't have a problem with a player class system being implimented for OJP. However, you said yourself that your system doesn't work outside of the customized Siege gametype.


It doesn't work outside of the Siege gametype in MB. But it wouldn't be 'that' much work to get the basic stuff out of Siege and into whatever gametype you like (FFA, TFFA etc.).
I think the biggest chunk of work involved would be getting the OJP-specific class system in place. (New menus etc.)

SO yes - we'd need to talk through what kind of class system you'd want in OJP.
...would you want models limiting for classes? Would you want it to be hard-coded, or defined by the model files?
What class do you want? Would you want just a copy of MB classes? Or would you want your own? If your trying to make these classes for normal FFA / TFFA modes, then you can't really just copy my MB classes, cos the balance woudl all be screwed. This would need to be thought about from the ground up, rebalancing everything...

And -to be fair - I have enough on my plate as it is. I really don't want to be coding in and planning from scratch a whole new class system for OJP. ..there - I said it. Is that selfish of me? No - I dont' really think so. I dont' even know if a class system is wanted in OJP. Am I even sure my work is going to be used?!

SO yes - these are the kinds of things we woudl definatly need to talk through. If some kind of arrangement can be worked out, and I think it's worth-while doing, then sure. I would be willing to put effort in to get this done... (within reason)


However, unless you're willing to discuss the player class system as a group and impliment the group's compromise, you shouldn't expect it to be universally applied to OJP.


FOr sure. I agree. It has to be what OJP wants to happen - not what I want to happen. This was kind of my point above - I understand this.

Tell ya what - I'll start a new thread concerning a class-based system for OJP. And ask people what they woudl expect from it.
...I'll also make a prediction. Their not gonna want an MB clone. Their gonna want something new. Something different. Something which would need some quality time dedicated to it

Now, if you were willing to work with me, maybe we can achieve this. Meshing the work I've already done / still doing with your own.

I think the best way to approach it personally - is if you could come up with at least the most basic class system to begin with. ALl I would need is a variable in the client data structure which told me what class this client is.
ANd then you could just request things of me.

'Could we have class X firing backpack rockets? And flamethrowing?'
'Could we have class Y having SBD stuff?'

...etc. etc.

Then I could add this stuff fairly easiely to your code. Just filling in the blanks you left for me.
...you can then go in - tweak anything you don't think works quite how you like etc.etc.

In this way, you end up with the system your looking for with a lot less effort...

...maybe something like this..?

So, why exactly am I difficult to talk to? Just curious.

I wouldn't take that comment too seriously.
Hell, I'm probably just as difficult to talk to...

I didn't actually want that bit included. Keshire's just trying to cause trouble ;)

Anyway - I've started the OJP class thread -let's see what people want, and then let's take it from there...

I didn't actually want that bit included. Keshire's just trying to cause trouble

Even arguements can bring about a good discussion. Which is what all this is about.

A lot of people owe you at least gratitude Razor. And unlike you I'll force the issue.