This is a petition to release the SP SDK (software development kit for single player) for JA. This would allow modders like the OJP team to be able to mod the SP game, something they are currently unable to do.
I am aware of the difficulty of getting Raven to do this, and more the difficulty of getting LA to do it. If we can get a large enough # of sig's, though, we might be able to get something done. If you're interested, just put your name in a post beneath this.
To whom it may concern at Raven and LucasArts Entertainment:
In the interest of promoting further expansion and enhancement of the Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy gaming experience, it is our request that you release the Software Development Kit for the Single Player aspect of Jedi Academy. Multiple modification groups throughout the Academy community would appreciate the opportunity to modify the Single Player game.
Moreover, since it is clearly not the intention of LucasArts entertainment to further modify the game with a further patch, the modding community would like the opportunity to present the players with further options of customization of the gaming experience. This would take the burden of responsiblity from the shoulders of those at LucasArts, which has since moved on to the development of new projects.
Many of the ideas expressed within the community would be able to be tried and modified without the need of official support, and this would allow the player to customize his or her gaming experience much as is possible within the multiplayer community. In the interest of spurring on the gaming community, we ask that you release the SP SDK, and thank you for your attention.
Sincerely,
The Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy gaming community.
Any signatures would be greatly appreciated, and if any of the folks at Raven who have been such a support to the community would like to get involved, I'd certainly welcome that as well.
Artificially Intelligent Voice Adress System
I'd sign it, but we all know it's pointless. If raven actually would release it, they'd release intellectual property of Id Software. I don't think that RavenSoft is looking forward to a lawsuit, really.
I don't know about that.
Have the Single Player SDK's for any other Quake3 engine games ever been released?
If they have, then this should be no different.
The MP SDK's for Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy are already out and have been for quite some time.
The trouble I think is really that LucasArts (under the control of LucasFilm) is afraid that if they release the SP SDK that people will run roughshod over the Star Wars universe with their scenarios (or something, it doesn't make much sense to me either, but those are the rules they expect Raven and others to uphold apparently).
Apparently MP is "safe" because everybody knows it's not part of the official Star Wars storyline and there's no chance that it could impede on the story or characters of some future Star Wars book or game. You can still make SP levels, you just can't change all the things you want to.
If you want to start a petition, don't rely on a forum thread, instead go get one of those petitionsonline.com petitions, they're more official looking, easier to manage and you'll get many more people to see it and respond to it.
That's my advice. LucasArts and Raven have stated many times it's not going to happen, but if you are going to start a petition, that's how you should do it. Nobody is going to pay attention to this thread (much as we wish they would).
Good point, Kurgan.
The only reason I thought it was even possible (b/c I know where GothiX is coming from) is b/c razorace said he thought that Raven might have previously released the SP SDK for Elite Force after a really long time. So it was a thought off the top of my head.
I don't think anyone fully understands what LA is afraid of; after all, anything anyone does is still technically their property anyway, and it's not like it's going to change the continuity or something...
Anyway, can somebody tell me exactly what the site is for that kind of a petition, and then I'll just run this over into that with a link on my first post here?
Well, I'd love to see the single player's SDK. Just since it couldn't hurt,
TK-8252
I have a feeling once doom 3 is out, an sdk will be released. Isn't that what happened when quake 2 was released? Two things...... wait or, i know this is illegal but maybe a friend of a friend knows someone, somewhere and can "covertly" acquire the the code needed and release it anonomously, not very smart but very brave indeed.
The site is:
http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html)
It has all the info on setting up the best kinds of online petitions.
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Well, if somebody leaked the SP SDK, one of two things would happen (if it happened it wouldn't stay secret for long):
1) LA/Id would be forced to reconsider and release the official SP SDK to counteract the leaked one.
Or
2) LA/Id would become VERY UPSET and send their crack teams of lawyers to put a heavy-handed stop to it and forever kill any chance of releasing the SP SDK officially.
So that's a pretty big risk, I wouldn't advise it.
Majin Revan (I don't know how to mod, but I'd love to see Single Player Campaigns)
:fett:
You guys really havent looked on our site for a while, not to take the topic away from its original, but you do know we have sorted Co-op out in our Code?
Isn't co-op multiplayer based?
You guys do realize that before they would release the SP SDK, they would first have to release the SDK for Jedi Outcast, and seeing as how it took Quake2 SDK like 5-10 years to get it out, the chances are, it wont be released within a time frame where people are still playing Jedi Academy. Its a certainty.
I heard somewhere that the devs for half life 2 are releasing the code upon the game's release. I guess they aren't afraid of losing money and the engine is light years ahead of q3's. It seems they are more in tune with their mod comunity. It'll be interesting to see what happens there and hopefully other companies see the advantages such as more people joining the community thus more players, more money, etc. and follow suit.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
I heard somewhere that the devs for half life 2 are releasing the code upon the game's release. If they do I will eat my shorts. I would say this is extremely unlikely.
Not to mention if I held any stock in that company I would sell it :)
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
I guess they aren't afraid of losing money and the engine is light years ahead of q3's. It doesn't really sound like something a company with a decent business model would do, does it? ;)
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
It seems they are more in tune with their mod comunity. It'll be interesting to see what happens there and hopefully other companies see the advantages such as more people joining the community thus more players, more money, etc. and follow suit. I suspect that they would see that any new mods that come about due to the source code being released generate magnitudes less in profits than owning and controlling the Half Life 2 engine would. Not only that, but it would also extend the life of the game, which isn't really in the company's best interest.
Are a few mods really going to increase the number of units sold by an appreciable amount? Maybe someone knows for sure, but I bet you would find that the vast majority of people buy games because they want to play those games, not because of potential mods. Mods are just a really nice perk.
I think hoping that all of a sudden companies are going to start releasing their assets for free is a pipe dream. :)
Tyler, you are to comment stealing LA in LAforums?
Either you are verry stupid or....verry stupid =/
Neh ways, there is no way HL2 would release its sdk early like that. Think of all the bad that would happen (and how many people would try to make a new *sighs* Counter-Strike *prays it never happens*).
Now, I do belive that they should release the SP codes.
You know what would be better
[dream]
A new JK game running on the HL engine....oooh thw sweetness! ooh the coolness, oooh Force throw could come back once more from its Jedi Knight and MotS ashes[/dreams]
Nehways, ima go play some more Armed and Dangerous...lmao..funniest game ever since The Curse of Monkey Island, rofl.
*slaps himself for going too off-topic*
Byez
The trouble I think is really that LucasArts (under the control of LucasFilm) is afraid that if they release the SP SDK that people will run roughshod over the Star Wars universe with their scenarios (or something, it doesn't make much sense to me either, but those are the rules they expect Raven and others to uphold apparently).
I dont get it, you dont need the SDK to do that...
Originally posted by Prime
I think hoping that all of a sudden companies are going to start releasing their assets for free is a pipe dream. :)
This is probably true.
But also, to make good SP levels (it seems) you don't need an SP SDK, with the ability to make maps, models (if you have the software) and cut scenes you have almost everything you need. Of course, use your imagination in the EU, but everyone who made an SP level wouldn't necessarily have "gone roughshod" over the SW universe.
Isn't the aim of level building to create a darned good level and have fun doing and playing it, to share that fun with others? Yes. Not necessarily to rewrite SW...
Yep, you'd only need the code for major overhauls. Storywise, you have plenty to work with as it is. You could take the sucker off road and do startrek if you'd like.
Yeh I very much agree, you can alter an awful lot without the SDK. You'd need the SDK to try to produce say a completely modified combat system in SP or something like that, but beyond that you can do almost anything you would realistically want without. I think people also forget how difficult it is to code a working mod from the SDK (taking the MP one as an example). It's all in C right? Its no walk in the park and if there was an SP SDK avaliable to edit I know I would do no more than alter a few minor, easy things. If you think of how few stable, worthwhile and cohesive MP mods that really alter the game that there are, I think it gives an idea of how difficult editing an SDK would be - and I would guess the SP SDK is more complex than the MP one.
Originally posted by Kengo
and I would guess the SP SDK is more complex than the MP one. Indeed. In SP gameplay issues with npcs and scripts have to be taken into consideration. I would think that there would be a lot more to worry about in SP.
On the bright side, at least there would be no admin mods for SP. Although, I'm sure some people would try to ban rockettroopers and reborn for laming...
I'm sure some people would try to ban rockettroopers and reborn for laming
Quote of the week goes to Prime :D lol
Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel
This is probably true.
But also, to make good SP levels (it seems) you don't need an SP SDK, with the ability to make maps, models (if you have the software) and cut scenes you have almost everything you need. Of course, use your imagination in the EU, but everyone who made an SP level wouldn't necessarily have "gone roughshod" over the SW universe.
Isn't the aim of level building to create a darned good level and have fun doing and playing it, to share that fun with others? Yes. Not necessarily to rewrite SW...
In terms of the SDK, i don't want to use it in terms of map making but to include new features in the game that aren't already there. Perhaps developing a new way for the saber to be used as to make it more realistic. Or in JA's case, adding a 1st person viewpoint and tweaking it so you could have more peripheral vision as opposed to the default view. Maybe some new customability options complete with a new menu. I have other things in mind but this is coding work that requires the SDK. Other than that, making maps is pretty easy. I have about 20 unreleased maps for JO and a few experimentals for JA.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Or in JA's case, adding a 1st person viewpoint and tweaking it so you could have more peripheral vision as opposed to the default view. Maybe some new customability options complete with a new menu. You can do all these things without the SDK right now...
True, but to go about it is pretty cumbersome.
I doubt an SDK would make these kind of modifications easier...
Originally posted by Prime
It doesn't really sound like something a company with a decent business model would do, does it? ;)
I think hoping that all of a sudden companies are going to start releasing their assets for free is a pipe dream. :) Not when you realize we live in a time when the teens and twenty-ish kids fail to see the cognitive dissonance when they want to download everything for free, justifying it because it doesn't mean anything to the too-rich artists and companies, yet at the same time hope to strike it rich by being an IPO millionaire or something ...
... and they called the 70's the 'me' decade ... so far the new millenium has it beat - now the aspiration to wealth is admiable but attaining it is dispicable.
Mike
Wow Mike, I totally agree. I hate the uneven argument whereby its OK to get anything for free on the net - music, games, films, and never paying for anything at all because its 'my way of fighting against the capatalist monster'. Seems like a lot of people don't value the creative arts anymore because they can just download them for absolutely nothing. I wish people would at least own up, stop talking all this nonsense about 'file sharing' and admit they just don't feel they should pay for anything for some reason.
Bloody students...
I'm done :)
EDIT: Oh, as I don't want to take this completely off topic...
Tyler, any chance we might see the release of some of these levels? You've been around the editing forums for a while now and I'm sure you've come up with some good stuff, we could badly do with some new SP levels.
The biggest thing I'd like to see is some actual modification of SP code: implementation of things like the OJP team's RGB sabers; things like that. I'd take a lot of work, sure, burt I knkow there's people who'd do it, and do it well.
True, for maps you don't need it, but there's a lot of things the modding community would like to do with SP but can't.
Originally posted by Master_Keralys
True, for maps you don't need it, but there's a lot of things the modding community would like to do with SP but can't. Maybe so, but Raven and Lucasarts have gone out of their way to make this game moddable and have provided support to do so. Really, they have really gone beyond the call of duty in that regard. In fairness, I don't think it is right to demand and expect that they release company assets for free.
I don't pretend to know the absolute logic behind LucasFilm/LucasArt's decisions about the SDK for JK2/JA.
However I do know that in the past (statements from developers working for them) that they are very, shall we say "anal" about the Star Wars liscense.
It probably has something to do with certain "minimum safeguards" against letting fans create their own Star Wars scenarios and storylines that could possibly (in some way, shape or form) make unauthorized changes to the OFFICIAL CONTINUITY or possibly fool people into thinking they are "official" products when they are not.
Of course it might seem hypocritical if this is their aim when they allow stuff like say the "Fan Films" on TheForce.net, etc.
Though I've never seen a fan film that has say Luke and Han doing something totally against the films, rather they use "made up" characters and storylines that might be similar to the movies but they're not "rip offs."
There's always the "Fox" mentality as well that says you can't let somebody make an amateur mod that is too good based on a concept you might want to make into a commercial game someday (because you don't want to risk having them try to sue or their mod taking sales away from the game you plan to make).
Even with LA's newfound respect for mods like UT2k3 Troopers, you have to remember that they have some new leadership over at LA now, so perhaps these policies are under review, and we don't know all the politics that go on over there.
We can't realistically expect Star Wars games to give us more than non-Star Wars games do in terms of modability, but on the other hand, since it IS Star Wars, they are very protective of it, and whatever their reasoning, they are afraid we'll tamper "too much" so they don't want to make it any easier for us to do that.
It's sort of like how you can't stop people from hacking into something if they are really smart and determined, but at least you can stop the majority of people by putting in certain minimum safeguards and perhaps hidding the information (a controversial strategy, but many companies believe in it).
Raven really wants to help us and they do every chance they get, but they always have to cowtow to what LucasArts/LucasFilm ultimately says about the liscense and properties. Not to mention the other complications like having to deal with ID for engines, and Activision for publishing/distribution rights.
I don't think it's right to demand the SDK either. But what i think the goal of this topic is, is to request luca$art$ and raven to release the sp source. Even though it is a long shot, it doesn't hurt to try. And even if they don't release the code, id will eventually release theirs which encompasses what the jedi games are based on, it's all just a matter of time and patience.
Actually now i'd like to see what engine the next games release will be on so i can learn the intracasies of that engine. Although it's gonna be a few years i'm sure but we got battlefront (for which many people, myself included, will build tons of scenarios for) and commando coming out this year to tide people over.
Originally posted by Tyler_Durden
Even though it is a long shot, it doesn't hurt to try. That's true. All they can do is say no :)
I'm pretty sure no company is allowed to release sp code before id does it since JK2/JKA's or any other Q3 based game is not that different to the original Q3 code. (modified but not incredibly, only HL1's engine was really modified from the original and that was Q1...)
Isn't co-op multiplayer based?
It is single-player played with a team mate in multiplayer...
heard somewhere that the devs for half life 2 are releasing the code upon the game's release. I guess they aren't afraid of losing money and the engine is light years ahead of q3's. It seems they are more in tune with their mod comunity. It'll be interesting to see what happens there and hopefully other companies see the advantages such as more people joining the community thus more players, more money, etc. and follow suit.
Mmmmm, that makes no sense, they would lose money, it would bring no more players (buying anyway and it's very likely they would just download the easy unprotected version because of source code. Also makes them lose money) and no companies would ever buy the engine to use meaning there would be hardly any improvement in the gaming community at all (use same old engines like q3.... :p)
Although it's gonna be a few years i'm sure but we got battlefront (for which many people, myself included, will build tons of scenarios for) and commando coming out this year to tide people over. Why are you campaigning for the SDK if you're not gonna be around to see it's release because of bf and commando??? :rolleyes:
I think it would be a good idea for that proper petition thing to be created... More will see it and I'd sign it like a few more would (I'm sure)...
Agen_Terminator
Kal El actually set up a Co-op game in JA SP for me to have a go at with him. Although its damn cool to have two guys working together and making their way through levels, you had the MP hit registry instead of SP - ie you put your saber right through a stormtroopers chest and it doesn't even hit them sometimes. Also the 200 ping didn't help :)
So although co-op is a damn cool idea that I'd love to see introduced, I don't think patching it into a game like JA works very well - it would need to be deliberately implemented from the start.
Like you and Prime said - the worst they can do is say no, so its worth a shot. However, you may have a hard time dragging people away from signing the 'Bring back Sam and Max 2' petitions that are snowballing all over...
Agen, i'm not complaining, i'm simply saying that myself and a lot of people will mod commando and battlefront between the time if and when an sdk is released or until the next jedi game release. I have no complaints if they don't release the sdk. Am i for it? sure, why not? I think it would enable a lot of people to create some awesome scenarios and gameplay attributes that aren't otherwise possible right now. You don't need the sdk to create great maps as evidenced by some great JO SP authors, but to include gameplay changes and the like you do need the sp code. This thread is about people requesting the sdk to make those changes. i don't demand they release it, as well you shouldn't, simply a request. If the companies say no then that's something we'll have to live with and move on or go to a better game, hey that's life. I think some of you guys need to lighten up.
i'd love the sp sdk not to make stupid clan games but to learn how they did some crap to make a decent mod. theres some exclusive sp things i'd like but i guess i could figure it out....
Somebody else is gonna have to set up the petition over at the site; I'd do it but I can't access it here at the school (apparently they think they should block it so that we can't petition for the school to shut down or something silly like that). I'll put my name on it as soon as it goes up. I'd do it at home, but I don't have internet access right now...
I can totally see where Raven stands on this, and respect them for it. It'd be nice if ID would realize that especially with the release of the new engines, it's rather pointless to hang on to Q3. Perhaps they'll release the source when they bring out Q4, who knows.
As far as LA goes, hopefully their new leadership will be more accepting of the mod community and realize that it's the very people that support their work the most that they have the highest alienation rate of. I don't really think that the company as a whole under GL is as anal as the games section is; the reason that TF.N gets to do the fan films (even a mock trailer for Ep 2, if you recall) is that it wasn't under LA. If it ever does fall under LA, it'll be knocked out, the way their current policy is. No one modding these things wants to change the continuity, just make the game better. I also fail to see how being able to change the code will affect the continuity more than creating new maps and/or mods that totally change gameplay and/or storyline... could be just me, though.
You're right Master, it's kind of silly of Luca$art$ to think that someone would try to change the continuity. But really if someone were to try, Luca$film would be all over them like flys on sh!t. So in that sense i could understand their reasoning but for the most part i believe that most people don't have evil intentions. We just want to take the game to a new level. Hmm maybe that's what they're afraid of, i don't know. I expect to be debunked.....