Just thought i'd get in a first post here with a few opinions on the current information.

From the sounds of it, this game is everything we thought JO was going to be times 4. Also seems that the variety of moves will allow for more strategy and training (Ah, this is good for us clan leaders, atleast those who train ;) )

I also noticed a long time ago a Beta leaked out. While obviously whoever leaked it was sued to hell and beyond, i would chip in my thoughts that although non spoiler tagged post should be deleted and the poster punished, that perhaps there is a solution besides banning anyone who says "i have the beta!" since, while most just get it to play it before release, you can never judge a person because he downloaded pirated software. For instance, i've often discovered a person who likely cant afford the software often downloads it. I mean honestly, if you can afford a game no problem, would you really go through the trouble of finding a DL program and then try to find a non-messed up version? i've got money burnign a hole in my pocket when it comes to my "game money" i set aside for Entertainment.

Same thing applies with this Beta Leak, its probably mostly people who actually did want to know what its like before release, and bursted under the wait and downloaded it, doesnt mean they're bad, just impatient. Some may wish to share this info under the excitement of how good the game is (This is a good sign, and free early advertisement for the Developers)
Now im not a Pirate myself, the only non-boughten thing i've downloaded has been Freespace 2, and i think most of us who tried to get it post 2002 have had to download it :/ (its not for sale anymore)

Now, off the controversal crap and onto business. Just wanted to introduce myself - I am vader, i am the leader of the Sith Red Faction (has exsisted since 1998, was founded by Me and Agony) I like long walks on the beach and enjoy long conversations about feelings. okay, the last 2 were lies, but you get the idea.

Well, glad to be here, just thought i'd get into the community earlier, unlike JO where i waited 2 months after release.

Welcome to the forums! I'll say that even though you've been here awhile, because this is your first post. ; )

while most just get it to play it before release, you can never judge a person because he downloaded pirated software.

We're not saying they are bad people, we're just enforcing a long-standing rule. The practical reason for this is that it would hurt our relationship with Raven/LA etc if we were to tolerate or encourage piracy of their games in front of them. Besides, it would be incredibly rude.

On the other hand, there are a great many viewers who ARE waiting for the game to come out so they can buy it and make up their own mind, which is where the spoilers come in. People get angry when the game is ruined for them. Not only that, but the beta is an OLD BUILD (at least 6 or 7 builds behind the final version) and as a result, info from it is NOT trustworthy for predicting the final version. This has the potential effect of giving people false expectations or negative undeserved publicity. It confuses people.

So you can see we have valid reasons for restricting the posting of warez info.


For instance, i've often discovered a person who likely cant afford the software often downloads it. I mean honestly, if you can afford a game no problem, would you really go through the trouble of finding a DL program and then try to find a non-messed up version? i've got money burnign a hole in my pocket when it comes to my "game money" i set aside for Entertainment.

Of course, it's not the game company's fault you can't afford their games but want them anyway. I know what you're trying to say, but that doesn't affect our decision. If people really want to pirate games, we can't stop them, period. They can visit other sites that promote that kind of thing if they want to. It's their free choice. But since we have a policy here, we can do whatever we can to enforce it, and the majority respect our decisions.


Same thing applies with this Beta Leak, its probably mostly people who actually did want to know what its like before release, and bursted under the wait and downloaded it, doesnt mean they're bad, just impatient.

Of course we can't stop people from downloading the beta. I can think of a lot of reasons for people to want to see it (for me personally I'd rather not have certain presuppositions burned into me from the beta before getting the real game, so I choose to avoid it).

The point is that these people who played the beta don't have to brag about it or post spoilers from it here. That is just common courtesy not to do so, but many choose to do it, and that is patently stupid of them (since we've posted prominent warnings and any long time readers would know that that's how we do things here).


Some may wish to share this info under the excitement of how good the game is (This is a good sign, and free early advertisement for the Developers)

Yes, but despite their good intentions, it can also have negative consequences.

For example let's say there's a really cool move in the beta that these folks love. They use it to promote the game. Then the full game comes out and the move is nowhere to be found. The people who liked the beta whine and complain and feel let down. The people who bought the game believing the beta people's story feel betrayed and ripped off.

You see how it can hurt as well as help?


Now im not a Pirate myself, the only non-boughten thing i've downloaded has been Freespace 2, and i think most of us who tried to get it post 2002 have had to download it :/ (its not for sale anymore)

Debating the ethics of pirating games is an old habit on these forums (and elsewhere on the internet). It probably won't ever be resolved. Especially the part about pirating old games.. but that isn't an issue, since this is a game that is being pirated, and yet it isn't even out yet! The majority of people who want to will be able to buy the game when it comes out (and it's even coming to multiple platforms) or shortly thereafter when the price goes down.

The point is, our general policy is not to in any way support piracy on our forums... and that is especially true of LucasArts/Raven games.

Again, welcome to the forums! Enjoy your stay... ; )

Should be lots of fun!

Makes sense, want to talk about the Beta leak, go somewhere else. Never thought about that

Welcome to the Forums!! That's a nice post you got there now I got to thing about that "Can't judge a perso that download a priated version of JA"

Originally posted by Reclaimer
Welcome to the Forums!! That's a nice post you got there now I got to thing about that "Can't judge a perso that download a priated version of JA"

Yes, but you can also judge a person who cannot spell correctly. ;)

Originally posted by TegSkywalker
Yes, but you can also judge a person who cannot spell correctly. ;)


Good one!

Originally posted by SRF_Vader you can never judge a person because he downloaded pirated software. Nor can you judge people who cut you off on the roadways, don't use directionals, and weave in and out of traffic dangerously. Nor can you judge people who go into a kids rated G movie and swear loudly. Nor can you judge people who cut all the way to the front of a line. Nor can you judge older kids who con little kids out of their stuff or money.

Perhaps you can't judge the contents of theis character, but you can judge their actions.

For instance, i've often discovered a person who likely cant afford the software often downloads it. I have sympathy for someone who has no money for food stealing food. I have sympathy in the winter for those who cannot afford clothes stealing a jacket. When I'm in the city and see homeless people I often give food and have given hats & gloves.

I mean honestly, if you can afford a game no problem, would you really go through the trouble of finding a DL program and then try to find a non-messed up version? I have two thoughts on this:
- Perhaps because of my relative affluence, I have no tolerance of stealing to feed a hobby.
- On the other hand, I know too many people with plenty of money who have greatly augmented their music and software collections via software piracy. (I have told multiple times the story of the person who went so far as to give my son the Harry Potter game which was the product of illegal copy)

Mike

I think of it this way. Would you have bought this game if you could't download it? If the answer is yes you should't. If the answer is no that there's no moral issue for me.

Originally posted by tom4stir
I think of it this way. Would you have bought this game if you could't download it? If the answer is yes you should't. If the answer is no that there's no moral issue for me. I can see your point - in this way how would it be different than my friend and I letting each other borrow a game, and (in my case it was Elite Force I borrowed, Thief I loaned) decided whether or not to buy? In some cases I bought right away, in some other cases - like with some RTS game I barely started ...

However, life is not so black and white. What about a game like Unreal II. I regret having paid $50 for that, but would it then have been OK for me to have stolen it? And how do they get the games - FTP (does it have a 'up/down' ratio?), P2P - have they exposed their stuff to get this game, leading to other piracy, or ...?

I just tell my kids - if it isn't yours, leave it alone. And, in the case of games, if you don't have the CD & case (or other proof of purchase), it isn't yours. But that is MY moral system, not someone else's.

Mike

Things are NOT black and white especially with games. If you look into the law system, you clearly see that File Sharing legal.

If someone were to download a released game from someone else, how is that any different than them giving it to them,or burning it on a CD, or loaning them it. The companies that made it arent getting any more money, as a matter of fact in an essay i wrote a few years back in college, i stated that programs like Kazaa can be seen more as Free Advertisement than anything else.

Replayability is one of the things removed from a Downloaded version. Sure, you can play single player over and over, but most of the money now days is made on the single aspect known as multiplayer, which is impossible to play now days with a warez version. For most games, anyway.

CD checks can be removed on your side but not the servers side (but then, even that can be hacked. But the average joe isnt going to figure that out anytime soon)

So, they get a taste of the game and mayby if they really like it they'll buy it.

Not true with all games, but the majority. Now, im going to go next door and install JO on his computer. Hope you dont mind, txa.

What you're talking about is a keyserver. Of course not all games have these... and its really only applicable for games with online multiplayer.

Eventually all online games may go to a pay per play model (like the various MMORPG's). I'd rather see keyservers widely used, instead though.

That is a pathetic excuse. You can't just say "Well... I wasn't going to play the game anyway, so why not just download it?".

I don't want to spend 50 dollars to eat at an expensive restaurant, but can I justify stealing the food, and enjoying it because "Well... I wouldn't buy it anyway..." ? Would you justify that?

If you won't, then you can't justify someone stealing a game off the internet because they don't have enough money -- especially when you don't even NEED the game anyway! If you're in that dire need of money I would suggest you spend your time doing other things than worrying about downloadng games off the internet.

Besides, once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..!

After awhile you will find that you "own" quite a few more games that you "would've never bought anyway" and many less games you actually payed for than before you started getting warez copies.

One more thing, if someone "likely can't afford the software" than how do they afford the kind of computer that is required to play a game like JA decently? That's just another excuse, and a way give their actions more sympathy... which they don't deserve.

Originally posted by SRF_Vader
Things are NOT black and white especially with games. If you look into the law system, you clearly see that File Sharing legal.

Yes, by the old VHS 'fair use' clause. And I bet if you and a few of your friends were burning CD's / DVD's / games *for each other* we wouldn't have the new DMCA, by which this stuff is not legal. It is the people 'sharing' thousands of files to thousands of others that isn't 'fair use'.

Originally posted by SRF_Vader
but most of the money now days is made on the single aspect known as multiplayer, which is impossible to play now days with a warez version. For most games, anyway. This is just plain wrong. Why? What are the biggest selling games in the last year - Enter The Matrix, Sims, and KOTOR. All SP. Even for FPS, games like MoHAA, RtCW and JKII were all million sellers, and now each has an online community of a few thousand. MP is a big draw, and becoming bigger, but SP is still the biggest part by a long margin.

So, they get a taste of the game and mayby if they really like it they'll buy it.
How often do you *really* think that happens ... I wouldn't think that it is even 10% of the time - and then probably only because they want MP and have been unable to crack it.

Now, im going to go next door and install JO on his computer. Hope you dont mind, txa. As I've said, I believe in the fair use clause. I had a friend at work for a number of years, and we would each get games and then trade discs after playing through - that was how I git my first taste of Duke 3D before buying it, and Elite Force, for that matter.

Mike

i have no strong objections to piracy for personal use. if people then go on and make a profit from selling illegal software, music, movies, etc. then i think that's wrong. for the most part, however, piracy will only result in an inferior copy. if you want the full experience fork out the dough.

if you want the full experience fork out the dough.

Remember that, pirated copies DON'T always give inferior experience.

The biggest problem here is opinion, neither you or i have ANY right to determine if people should be downloading Pirated software. Do we know what situation they are in, do we know if they'd even buy the game? and i can bet you, with every last dime i've got, that this pirated thing is barely effecting the market, they are blowing things WAY out of proportion.

They like to make things seem bigger than they are, Main thing is, no longer is this a free country. I no longer have the right to share files to other people that i paid for, no longer do i have the right to share my boughten property with someone else.

This is what The free country of America is turning into.

All of this is interesting of course, but it doesn't change how we're treating the subject on our forums.

Don't promote warez or the leaked beta on here or ask where to get it, and you'll be fine. You can always do that someplace else or with your friends privately and we can't stop you.

Our reasons for enforcing our policy are our own, and you don't have to agree of course, but you will suffer the consequences for breaking any rules.

I do agree that the stipulations of the DMCA and other such things (including the DeCSS) case make me uncomfortable, but most of the stuff you are seeing in relation to JA is pretty blatantly obviously illegal, any way you look at it. It may not affect sales now (well, in theory it can because people will be bored of the game or turned off by the inferior beta long before the actual game comes out) but the warez won't go away (you can't put the Genie back into the bottle) and so it will continue to affect sales as long as the game is out... in the long run. Sure some people will buy the game if they download it and like it, but many others will not, and a few will distribute thousands of copies to random strangers.

At least we're not helping them here.

Should this go to the Senate Chambers?

pirated copy won't give you a glossy manual, a nice box and a star wars figurine. whether it's a movie, a cd or software, you always miss out on something by downloading it off the internet. generally it's rather trivial, like a manual or info on the band or the "cinema experience", but a paid for copy will always be better than one off the internet.