No razor your missing the point. I'm saying that your killing an individual human being when you have an abortion. I'm not talking about 7 years into your life if your a different person. Science has proven that an individuals life begins at conception which I said and Cjais and I got into a debate about.
Originally posted by Cjais
Tell me the difference between a fetus growing in a womb, and a group of cancer cells
Cancer permanently damages the host, pregnant women recover.
Example: I have a blueprint of the car I wish to design. I realize I can't build the car after all, so I throw the blueprint in the bin. Now, do I start crying over all the mileage that car would never run? Do I weep for it because it didn't get the chance to drive on the alps? No. It is just a template, without any emotional value at all.
Does the blueprint grow into a car? This whole analogy is flawed.
We go thru a complete cell replaced over a period of 7 years or so. Does that mean I'm not the same person that existed 7 years ago? A bunch of cells do not equal a person.Neural cells are not replacement, and that's where our consciousness lies.
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
And Cjais did you read the quote I posted from
www.abortionfacts.com?) Here is part of it...
I read it. And I agree with them. An individual's life does begin at conception.
But the point is, there is no individual yet. It takes time for an individual to appear - most importantly it needs a consciousness and a way to think. Otherwise it's mentally, emotionally and spiritually dead. Just as the early beginning of human life were the first single celled organisms, so is the early beginning of the human individual the conception.
Cancer permanently damages the host, pregnant women recover.
Cancer does not always permanently damage the host, nor do pregnant women not always survive the whole pregnancy. But that is beside the point, as this has nothing to do with the example.
Does the blueprint grow into a car? This whole analogy is flawed.
Suppose you had the chassis of the car. Would you call that a car yet? How about adding wheels to it, is it now a car? An engine then? Only when the vehicle is capable of moving about in a crude manner would I call it a car. Not yet fully finished, but a car. It can drive now, which is the basic requirement of a car. Similar to the nervous system of the fetus - once it is developed can you begin talking about a human individual. Before that it's just a lump of growing cells.
Neural cells are not replacement, and that's where our consciousness lies.
So you agree it is our neural cells that makes us human?
Only when the vehicle is capable of moving about in a crude manner would I call it a car.Not yet fully finished, but a car. It can drive now, which is the basic requirement of a car. Similar to the nervous system of the fetus - once it is developed can you begin talking about a human individual.
This was my whole Roe v. Wade point earlier. Except that it gains it's human rights once it can be sustained outside the mother's womb (as defined by the Supreme Court). I wonder what the development of artificial wombs would do to abortion rights.
So you agree it is our neural cells that makes us human?
No, our DNA makes us human. Neural cells just make consciousness possible, and that's where it happens. When knocked unconscious, do you lose your humanity?
Originally posted by Cjais
But the point is, there is no individual yet. It takes time for an individual to appear - most importantly it needs a consciousness and a way to think. Otherwise it's mentally, emotionally and spiritually dead. Just as the early beginning of human life were the first single celled organisms, so is the early beginning of the human individual the conception.
People who are brain dead are mentally, emotionally and spiritually dead people. Their brain is not functioning which is the same as not having one just like an early fetus does. So your saying that brain-dead people who are still alive without their brain, just like fetus', are not living individual people?
Originally posted by matt-windu
This was my whole Roe v. Wade point earlier. Except that it gains it's human rights once it can be sustained outside the mother's womb (as defined by the Supreme Court). I wonder what the development of artificial wombs would do to abortion rights.
Eh. So you're pro-abortion? Or against it? Or are we just replying to each other's posts? :p
No, our DNA makes us human. Neural cells just make consciousness possible, and that's where it happens. When knocked unconscious, do you lose your humanity?
In a sense, yes. Would you call a person who was literally braindead truly human? I mean, he looks like a human, but it's only his body that resembles a human. If DNA is the only thing that makes us human, I wonder what people are going to say once scientists artificially create a the complete human DNA string. They can currently create small bits of it, but the whole thing could make for some very interesting ethical discussions.
Problem is, once you get down into genetics, the defining line for what's human becomes blurry. How much are we allowed to genetically alter our DNA before we're no longer "human"?
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
So your saying that brain-dead people who are still alive without their brain, just like fetus', are not living individual people?
Well, yes. If your brain isn't working at all, you're dead already. Which is why the fetus is dead in the same sense.
If you had no brain, would you be a living, individual human, or just a piece of braindead flesh?
Ok well what if you get knocked out? Your brain is not functioning and you can't move your arms and legs but you are still living.
(Cjais I don't think this debate is ever going to end but its a good one so lets keep it going. :) )
Reborn, as much as it tries to present a little from both sides, that site is clearly anti-abortion. The facts are exhaggerated, the whole page is biased. It's all just a website full of abortion bashing.
It's a website designed for pregnant women, in order to get them to not have an abortion.
You go into the pro-life section, and it praises you
You go into the pro choice section, hoping for good facts about abortion, but it just tells you how wrong you are, and bashes all the pro-choice arguments.
It's just plain stupid.
I think people should always have options. It's because of this I am pro-choice. If it comes down to it....and let's say my gf is pregnant, I don't know what will happen. I do know that it's her choice and not mine.......
I don't think it's possible to alter our DNA to the point where we aren't 'human.' We'd just evolve past Homo sapien and into Homo somethingelse.
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
No razor your missing the point. I'm saying that your killing an individual human being when you have an abortion. I'm not talking about 7 years into your life if your a different person. Science has proven that an individuals life begins at conception which I said and Cjais and I got into a debate about.
There is no proof that the fetus has any sort of "human" mental capacity at conception. I believe it was stated that before third trimester, the fetus doesn't have any brain function on the level we consider "human".
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Ok well what if you get knocked out? Your brain is not functioning and you can't move your arms and legs but you are still living.
Your brain still functions even when you're knocked out.
Originally posted by razorace
Your brain still functions even when you're knocked out.
Yes, but you can't make a conscious thought, similar to the interactions between neurons of an unborn entity.
My new stance is that abortion is wrong after neurons begin to develop and interact, even in the most basic ways...before that it's ok imo.
Then neural pathways don't begin to develop until a fair way into the pregnancy. Most abortions happen long before this.
Originally posted by matt-windu
Yes, but you can't make a conscious thought, similar to the interactions between neurons of an unborn entity.
Well, there's a LOT of crap going on mentally that you can't consciously sense. I'd guess (total ballpark) that 90% of your mental functions are hidden from what you consider "conscious thought". It would be cool to see what goes on in my sub-conscious.
I am very much for Abortion. Considering the significant rise in teenage pregnancies and things like the 'date-rape' drug nowadays, it's becoming increasingly likely for young people to become pregnant by accident. I think that if a woman does make a mistake and becomes pregnant, and does not want the child, then they should have the right to decide if they have it or not.
Put it in this context. Say the woman doesn't want to have a baby, but by law is not allowed to have an abortion. Do you really think that the life of that will be okay, even if her mother doesn't want her? I highly doubt it...
Originally posted by matt-windu
I don't think it's possible to alter our DNA to the point where we aren't 'human.' We'd just evolve past Homo sapien and into Homo somethingelse.
It's possible to alter the human DNA. It's very much possible to crudely alter huge chunks of our chromosomes into something so alien you wouldn't see it as human in any way. It wouldn't have human DNA, it wouldn't look human, and it wouldn't behave human. But it originated from a modified human DNA string, so I guess it must be human.
If it was possible to alter the human embryo into something that looked like a dog, behaved like a dog and thought like a dog, would you call it a "heavily genetically altered human", or a "dog".
The categorization of species is a human construct. It does not exist once you delve into the DNA. Which is exactly why the ideal of upholding human life above all else is silly per definition.
Abortion actually has a higher rate of death and harm than if a woman goes ahead with her pregnancy. I just heard a horrible story today about a woman was having an abortion and the doctor pulled out part of her bladder with the tool he was using. She had a hemmorage (sp?) and was rushed to be treated. She had to have multiple surgeries and now can never have a child, cna't have sex and has to pee into a bag hanging from right below her bladder because she is unable to to go to the bathroom correctly... i've never heard of a pregnancy that has done that.
Originally posted by Cjais
It's possible to alter the human DNA. It's very much possible to crudely alter huge chunks of our chromosomes into something so alien you wouldn't see it as human in any way. It wouldn't have human DNA, it wouldn't look human, and it wouldn't behave human. But it originated from a modified human DNA string, so I guess it must be human.
If it was possible to alter the human embryo into something that looked like a dog, behaved like a dog and thought like a dog, would you call it a "heavily genetically altered human", or a "dog".
From webster:
alter - to make different without changing into something else
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Abortion actually has a higher rate of death and harm than if a woman goes ahead with her pregnancy.
I really doubt that statistic. I suggest you go look it up.
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
Abortion actually has a higher rate of death and harm than if a woman goes ahead with her pregnancy. I just heard a horrible story today about a woman was having an abortion and the doctor pulled out part of her bladder with the tool he was using. She had a hemmorage (sp?) and was rushed to be treated. She had to have multiple surgeries and now can never have a child, cna't have sex and has to pee into a bag hanging from right below her bladder because she is unable to to go to the bathroom correctly... i've never heard of a pregnancy that has done that.
Actually pregnancies can often do much worse. A lot of women die from giving birth, some have to have their uteruses removed post-birth. You hear about it all the time. The story you just mentioned, which I've never heard of before, which is utterly stupid, would only happen on EXTEMELY rare circumstances.
If you knew how abortions were performed today, you'd realise it's not possible to pull out a chunk of the bladder. The bladder in women is located down and forward from the uterus. The tool used for most abortions nowadays is not some deadly spiky sharp death claw, but rather, a simple suction tool which just sucks the undeveloped embryo out. There's no scraping or digging or sharp poking of any kind, so my guess is that abortion story is just an urban legend, or some sort of back-alley cheapskate bodgey abortion job.
It's a fact that hospital and clinic abortions have a MUCH lower mortality rate than carrying the pregnancy to term, quite contrary to your opinion. It's incredibly safe, and as I said before, has a mortality rate similar to getting a tooth pulled.
It's a very professional thing these days.
I am against Abortion for many reasons, but the one way I explain is imagine this:
For those wanting to abort their child, imagine this for a moment. Imagine your parents in the same situation. They could have EASILY and just as much aborted you, but they didn't. So don't you think you should give your child the same opportunity at life as your parents did for you.
Sure there are the special circumstances like rape, incest. I feel that only if the woman's life is indeed in danger beyond a shadow of a doubt, then possibly induce labor, because I read somewhere (not sure the validity of the the source), that most complications where the pregnancy is life-threatening to the woman begins in the middle of the third trimester, in which case, most if not all of the fetus has developed, and with induced labor, there is a good chance that both the woman and the child may survive. And I say in cases such as incest and rape, have the baby, and even then if you don't want it, put it up for adoption because there are thousands upon thousands of couples who would love to have a child of their own, but due to medical complications, they are unable to.
That's my thoughts on abortion.
For those wanting to abort their child, imagine this for a moment. Imagine your parents in the same situation. They could have EASILY and just as much aborted you, but they didn't. So don't you think you should give your child the same opportunity at life as your parents did for you.
I really doubt it. I was a wanted child. My parents tried to have childs for years.
Pregnancy isn't a minor issue. It's a huge emotional/physical event. Forcing someone to go thru that for your own personal convictions doesn't seem right.
yes i personally hate that bumper sticker slogan as well. Yes, we understand that by our parents "choice" we are alive. Its just like I stated before...its like...telling people it is illegal to drink before they are 21. They are going to do it anyway. People are going to sell it to them knowing they aren't old enough. People do what they want to do regardless of the rules.
That is when you have all these...people pulling out bladders by mistake etc. You make abortion illegal...and people are going to do it anyway - using dr's or non doctors who may or may not know what they are doing. It wouldn't be safe anymore and people would just drop babies in dumpsters or not take care of themselves when they are pregnant.
I agree with Razor - our parents chose to have us. Yes, it would suck if they didn't...but whether you are religious or not. That's fate...if we weren't here we'd never know the difference.
I believe the person should try and raise the child, but it wouldn't be right. Maybe it shouldn't be illegal, just limited. Say you'd need a fair reason to have an abortion. If for some reason you really couldn't raise the child or didn't have any relatives that would help, then I think an abortion would be okay, it's really not anyone else's decision.
Btw, I think that adults should be more aware of those things in the future.....heh...
Originally posted by Xylan
If for some reason you really couldn't raise the child or didn't have any relatives that would help, then I think an abortion would be okay
What's wrong with adoption in that case?
Originally posted by razorace
I really doubt it. I was a wanted child. My parents tried to have childs for years.
He said to imagine they were in a similar situation.
Originally posted by matt-windu
What's wrong with adoption in that case?
A pregnancy is not something to be taken lightly. It's not just something you can compare to buying the groceries or taking a pill. And I doubt many teen girls are ready and want to give birth until they're a little more mature. Yeah, they could have taken better care of themselves, I know...
He said to imagine they were in a similar situation.
What's so wrong with not existing? Are you afraid of the time before your birth? After your death?
Well, Cjsais, imagine not existing.. imagine a world without you. Imagine everything you have ever done... Imagine it never happening. The one thing that means the most to you never happening. Never getting the chance to do anything. Put yourself outside of yourself and tell me how the world looks. How the world around you looks. In fact, let everyone do that. Never meeting that special someone. Never getting that great job. Never getting to see your dream come true happen. Scary thought huh. Now tell me if anyone is scared of never exisiting.
Originally posted by matt-windu
He said to imagine they were in a similar situation.
Well, if they had been in that situation, I'm sure they'd have done what was the right thing to do based on what my quality of life would have been. This arguement doesn't work for me, I was so close to nonexistance anyway. My mom was having trouble conceiving and they were about to do some tests that would have killed me. Fortunately for me, my mom decided not to get the testing done. Plus, I'm a "miricle" baby. My mom was told that she couldn't have children. The egg that formed me literially had to swim from the ovam on the wrong side of her body, to her other feloveum tube, and then down.
Well, Cjsais, imagine not existing.. imagine a world without you. Imagine everything you have ever done... Imagine it never happening. The one thing that means the most to you never happening. Never getting the chance to do anything. Put yourself outside of yourself and tell me how the world looks. How the world around you looks. In fact, let everyone do that. Never meeting that special someone. Never getting that great job. Never getting to see your dream come true happen. Scary thought huh. Now tell me if anyone is scared of never exisiting.
Well, that in general that is a scary thought, but you really wouldn't have anything to worry about since you wouldn't exist. But now, and looking at what would and wouldn't have happend without you, that's sort of creepy.
A pregnancy is not something to be taken lightly. It's not just something you can compare to buying the groceries or taking a pill. And I doubt many teen girls are ready and want to give birth until they're a little more mature. Yeah, they could have taken better care of themselves, I know...
That is sort of what I ment, but I'm not for abortions. I'm just saying have them limited. Adoptions are more than okay, that is what I would want to do in the situation, but there are 100s of reasons people wouldn't want to have the child. And this has happened before, alot of relationships end because the woman is going to have a child, and the man leaves. So there are many reasons. Heh.
Originally posted by Cjais
A pregnancy is not something to be taken lightly. It's not just something you can compare to buying the groceries or taking a pill. And I doubt many teen girls are ready and want to give birth until they're a little more mature. Yeah, they could have taken better care of themselves, I know...
If a pregnancy is not to be taken lightly (which it isn't) then NEITHER is the sex that those teens had in the first place. Teens nowadays play around with sex like it IS buying groceries. Ok now if some of you are for abortion think about this... if these teens or people didn't want to have a child... why didn't they use protection? A condom has a 98% chance of working... and with so many abortions we can automatically assume that they didn't use protection. Another alternative to an abortion is to not have a child in the first place by using protection. Let me throw another twist your way. What if abortions are not meant to actually happen? People who want to have children... don't use protection. People who don't and are just "screwing" around should use protection.
But if pregnancy is not to be taken lightly then neither is abortion. But people do it without a second thought.
I agree that people aren't careful enough with sex, but that's a slightly different issue.
I really doubt most people just have abortions "without a second thought". The ones that do probably don't care about anything anyway.
I see this have come back up.
To tell you the truth most people just want to have adult action without adult re-action. As in other words "They want to have no consequences for any action they take." Also alot of "oops"
I really doubt most people just have abortions "without a second thought".
I can think of some people that only have second thoughts after they killed the baby.
until they're a little more mature
If that ever happens. I know of a girl who used to live next door at my previous house. I could go on for days telling what she did, but all that I can say is that almost 4-7 years later see is still just as immature as she was before.(If you want I can go into talking about what she did.)
I agree that people aren't careful enough with sex, but that's a slightly different issue.
How is it a different issue? Because they are not careful they end up with a baby. And *bang* it ends up with this issue.
Originally posted by razorace
My mom was having trouble conceiving and they were about to do some tests that would have killed me. Fortunately for me, my mom decided not to get the testing done.
Wait, when these test were going to be done were you still a fetus? Are you for abortion? Do you agree with Cjais that a fetus is just a "blueprint" that cannot be killed? If you said yes to all these then why do you now say that you could have been killed with the tests. If you were a fetus, then in your point of view, weren't you just a blueprint and not an individual human being. See by saying that you could have been killed, you just admitted that you thought that you were special. Why is it not so with every other fetus that was killed during an abortion?
The test were suppose to take place before my mom know she was pregnent. I was probably just a bunch of cells at that point.
My personal opinion on abortion is that it should be legal and availible. Quality of life is a serious consern for me. We can't even care for all the people we have now!
How is it a different issue? Because they are not careful they end up with a baby. And *bang* it ends up with this issue.
Pregnency happens even when you take every possible precuasion (except for no sex at all). Life finds a way.
Originally posted by Andy867
Well, Cjsais, imagine not existing.. imagine a world without you. Imagine everything you have ever done... Imagine it never happening. The one thing that means the most to you never happening. Never getting the chance to do anything. Put yourself outside of yourself and tell me how the world looks. How the world around you looks. In fact, let everyone do that. Never meeting that special someone. Never getting that great job. Never getting to see your dream come true happen. Scary thought huh. Now tell me if anyone is scared of never exisiting.
2 things...
A) We ARE here.... so there's no point in imagining it. We only care about ourselves. We don'tgive a second thought to all the babies that HAVENT happen. We take the world as it is, not as how it could have been.
and
B) We'd never know that we were supposed to exist. We wouldn't realise we'd be sitting round years later tlaking about this, as the people we are. It's irrelevant. The world would go on without us if we didn't exist. Besides, our parents probably would have had another child... when they were ready. That child may very well have had a better life than us, as the parents would have been more ready for the child.
I like existing, I like my life, but if I hadn't have existed, no biggie. I wouldn't be able to whinge about it. I just wouldn't be.
I do not believe that ending the progress of a couple of cells that have divided is murdering a human being.
The law of each pro-abortion country has put a limit after which you are not allowed to do an abortion. This makes sense. If the kid is "alive 'n kickin' abortion means murder.
I'm not too keen about the Bible-argument as some might have noticed. ;)
If you start talking about "God giving life and men not having the right to take it away" or some omnious, everlasting "spirit" or "soul", the debate becomes meaningless.
We have to think practically. The doctors know when pain can be felt. They know when a bunch of cells becomes a thinking person. Well...to some extent anyways. :D
I don't accept abortion as means of birth control, though. A lot of teens think that's "no biggie". :(
Originally posted by Luc Solar
I don't accept abortion as means of birth control, though. A lot of teens think that's "no biggie". :( same here i think it should be allowed though for in those like accident cases such as the condom broke. rape. or the pill didnt work.
Originally posted by razorace
The test were suppose to take place before my mom know she was pregnent. I was probably just a bunch of cells at that point.
But do you agree with Cjais that a fetus is a blueprint... I don't but if you do then why did you refer to yourself as being killed? See when you think about yourself, you don't think about a blueprint, you think about yourself being killed as a fetus which is exactly waht it is.
I don't accept abortion as means of birth control, though. A lot of teens think that's "no biggie".
Who?! It's not exactely comfortable, and it is expensive.
But do you agree with Cjais that a fetus is a blueprint... I don't but if you do then why did you refer to yourself as being killed? See when you think about yourself, you don't think about a blueprint, you think about yourself being killed as a fetus which is exactly waht it is.
Only as much as I consider my pinky as "me". :)
Ok razor lemme ask you this :)
Do you believe that if those tests were run that they would have killed you or just wiped out a blueprint ?
they wipedout my blueprint. ah now i cant be a smurf. jk yeah its just a blueprint nothing more nothing less.
Originally posted by razorace
Who?! It's not exactely comfortable, and it is expensive.
Well in Finland it costs nothing, I believe (that's why we have insane taxes)
I've lived in a city here which has the highest rate of teen-pregnancies and abortions in the country, and let me tell you... a lot of girls just like to fool around.
By saying I don't accept abortion as birth control I refer to situations where f.ex:
Girl gets drunk and screws around. She wakes up the next morning thinking "Whoa, what wild night, I guess we didn't use any protection.. oh well, I'll just wait a month or two and get an abortion later if I got impregnated."
If you even suspect that you might have had "unsafe" sex (condom broke or slipped off / forgot to take the pill that night or whatever) you go and get The Pill that terminates the possible pregnancy from the nearest health center first thing in the morning! :mad:
Originally posted by Luc Solar
Girl gets drunk and screws around. She wakes up the next morning thinking "Whoa, what wild night, I guess we didn't use any protection.. oh well, I'll just wait a month or two and get an abortion later if I got impregnated."
i hate people like that thats what is getting abortion hated more and more. they are messing it up. like if somedude put some stuff in a girls coke and she passed out and he raped her they find out they might be pregnant. i think they are entitled to an abortion. since its not their fault the guy was an ******* who couldnt get laid the right way.
I think you guys are assuming too much and exagerating too much. I don't believe that a lot of girls just go and get an abortion as a form of b.c. If you think that's what they do then go find statitistics on that information. But I'm going to take the benefit of the doubt and say that assuming women just get drunk and for the hell of it just figure that they'll have an abortion is insane. Please... you guys seem to be placing too much of this on the woman as if we are some whore's who go around all "unprotected" and figure if we get knocked up we will just get an abortion. :mad:
Originally posted by Reborn Outcast
But do you agree with Cjais that a fetus is a blueprint... I don't but if you do then why did you refer to yourself as being killed? See when you think about yourself, you don't think about a blueprint, you think about yourself being killed as a fetus which is exactly waht it is.
You don't get my point.
What are the earliest memories you have? From when you were 2 years old? 1 year? Whatever it is, I doubt you had memories of you being in your mother's womb.
You can compare yourself to a virus in the womb. You have no self identity. You are not self-conscious. You are not there yet. If "I" were "killed" during the pregnancy, I would never exist. It makes no sense at all to talk about pity and empathy for a life that would never exist. Do you have pity for the life that isn't born right now because a would-be mother decided to take the car instead of the train and thus didn't meet her future husband? It's nonsense to talk about what could happen, instead of concentrating on what is. Save the babies who can't get food because Sudan is overpopulated. Save them, instead of worrying about the people who could have been born if it weren't for sexual prevention. We need abortion to save born lives.
Life as a concept has only any meaning for those alive.
i agree - i think its pretty silly to ask you how you would feel if you weren't born. You wouldn't even know it. I mean if you want to be that wierd...maybe you weren't you yet. Maybe the next time your mom got pregnant after the abortion - that was you. You don't know. Seems silly.
Originally posted by STTCT
I think you guys are assuming too much and exagerating too much. I don't believe that a lot of girls just go and get an abortion as a form of b.c. If you think that's what they do then go find statitistics on that information. But I'm going to take the benefit of the doubt and say that assuming women just get drunk and for the hell of it just figure that they'll have an abortion is insane. Please... you guys seem to be placing too much of this on the woman as if we are some whore's who go around all "unprotected" and figure if we get knocked up we will just get an abortion. :mad:
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying *all* women or *most* women do it. I'm just saying that some do, and I don't accept that. (Just like I don't accept that boys mess around without using condoms)
In this particular city the teen pregnancy and abortion-rates were (and still are) waaaaaay higher than anywhere else. I don't know exactly what has caused this, but it is a fact nevertheless.
There are a lot of teens who are too busy partying to care about things like STD's or getting pregnant. That is a fact and it makes me feel like they're taking the "easy way out", not facing the consequences of their screw-ups.
(I know abortion is not a easy thing for most women, but it seems that the ones I'm talking about couldn't care less.)