I was just watching Star Wars with a friend and we sort of started arguing over Obi-Wan's line "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
Having seen how the original trilogy played out, I figure he meant that he would return (in spirit form) to assist Luke in restoring peace to the galaxy. My friend, however, thought the line was stupid since Obi-Wan himself never returns.
We both agree that there was really no point in Obi-Wan allowing Vader to kill him. I think that Luke still could have become a great Jedi, faced Vader, etc. had Obi-Wan not been suicidal. As a matter of fact, it probably would have been better for him. After all, he was only trained by Yoda for a brief time.
So what do you all think? Did Obi-Wan allow himself to be killed for a greater good or was he merely tired of life and eager to see his old friend Qui-Gon?
Well, in his current form, Vader was in the Dark Side of the Force. So if he died that way, the Force would destroy him, instead of keep a memory of his personality and allow it to manifest and interact with other personalities saved by the force, such as Qui Gon.
So, would you rather be a 60-ish year old Jedi, or a timeless entity who can manifest itself anywhere and chat with old buddies?
I'd choose the latter, and I'd definitely say that's more powerful.
What are you talking about he has no power at all he cant hurt vader. And he dosen't even seem cable of going places on command ohterwise he'd be with luke all the time not once or twice through like 4 years.
I also think he was suicidal and could have atleast hurt or maybe even killed vader witha lucky shot. a half trained luke put up a better fight then a 40 year jedi knight. You want dark jedi to come back to the light side but dieing for that idea when its clear your death won't do it is stupid at best.
Where dose it say only light side jedi live on no where I've hread.
It depends on how you take the whole thing, by providing Luke the inspiration to continue to train, Obi-Wan did become more powerful that Vader could imagine, he was able to bring about the end of the Sith.
A lot of things in Star Wars aren't direct, they are fulfilled in an indirect way. Don't think of it as Obi-Wan himself being the one that becomes all powerful, but being the inspiration for someone else becoming all powerful, the person who basically ends up leading the Rebellion to victory over the Empire.
When Obi-Wan sacrifices himself, he knew Luke was watching, and likewise, he new that Luke would have gotten angry. And the story continues, and Luke's hatred for Vader grows UNTIL the point that he tells luke that he is lukes father. Luke almost fell to the dark side, because vader is his father, and it got a bit personal. Without Obi-Wans sacrifise, luke probably would have turned bad, but since he already hated vader, he didnt turn.
When Obi-Wan died he became one with the Force, the Force is more powerful than Vader can imagine, Obi-Wan now IS the Force, get it? Power isn't always about the ability to kick someones a$$.
After TPM came out, the death of Obi-Wan has actually more meaning in my eyes. The way he smiles briefly, when he sees Luke watching the duel, gets me thinking about Qui-Gon. Maybe he thought that just like he got angry enough to beat Maul after his Master fell down, Luke would get angry enough to contiue his own journey AND probably even have a good reason to "avenge" his death(and the death of other Jedi before him).
Of course the line he says before it seems to indicate directly to him becoming part of the Force(something that Dark Side users will never understand, because they lose their identity) and returning later in a ghost form, but I thought it would be really interesting from Obi-Wan's point of view to die honorably; maybe that was the moment when he finally understood in what situation Qui-Gon was and that tables had now turned around. He wanted to give a way to younger generation of Jedi.
Also, I remember Behind the Magic mentioning that in revised rough draft of RotJ Obi-Wan was actually resurrected in a physical form and offered to stand at Luke's side during final Duel. Maybe Lucas had this originally in his mind as part of "becoming more powerful": in addition to giving advice to Luke from the Netherworld(a term Lucas used in that draft), he could also reborn again. So, in a sense he WAS more powerful that Vader could believe; in another rough draft of RotJ, he even appears to Vader when he's taking Luke to the Emperor and tries to turn him to the good side.
I dont buy this he had to die crap. WHY did he have to die? You think that if he had lived luke would have gone na with you alive I don't feel like being jedi ummm I some how dought that would have happened. If anything luke would have been a better jedi. Also Why would he want to get luke to hate vader after all "hate leads to the dark side".
And power is all about kicking ass why have it if you cant use it you may as well not have it.
I think it was just talk in order to make Vader even more angry. But there is still the sequels...if they are going to make them.
And power is all about kicking ass why have it if you cant use it you may as well not have it.
*waves his paw* Bah
Nut, I'm gonna speak in your terms...Star Wars-terms...
You sound like a Dark Jedi.."Power is nothing if it can't hurt people". that's crap! Real power is NOT to hurt people.
Didn't Desann say something similar at the end of JKII??
Contemplate this ;)
I didn't exactly mean that Obi-Wan wanted to make Luke angry in a way that he would be tempted by the Dark Side, but more likely give him one more reason to continue his journey and fight againts Vader when the time comes; as a same time, it was his final "lesson" to his old padawan about true meaning of the Force. Also, if I quote the last talk Obi-Wan had with Luke in RotJ, looks like he certainly had his own doubts:
Luke: There's still good in him.
Ben: He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Ben: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Ben: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.
So, from certain point of view, Obi-Wan thought(as a not-so-good Jedi master he were) that there was no way to turn Anakin back again after all those years, but instead Luke would have to kill him. Even though he speaks about Anakin being his good friend earlier, footage from AOTC seems to give a slightly different view: Obi-Wan "kicks" Anakin around verbally many times and doesn't seem to understand the special role his padawan has in universe. Perhaps he forgot the prophecy that Qui-Gon talked about so eagerly or never believed in it in the first place. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Gaming Nut
Where dose it say only light side jedi live on no where I've hread.
I read somewhere that when a Jedi turns to the Dark Side he loses his soul and is torment forever after he dies. Kinda like that the you go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus!
Obi-wan let Vader cut him down so that Luke would have a reason to hate Vader specifically, rather than just the Empire in general.
But doesn't hate lead to the Dark Side?
I agree with you, sev707. I think that the if you strike me down line will be one of those unexplained things, if you only take the movies. Kinda like the way I see the whole midiclorians thing will pan out. Since that and Jar Jar were the main things people hated about Phantom Menace, and Jar Jar is not supposed to be on nearly as much. Maybe Lucas completely omitted the midiclorians for the next couplee of chapters.
I think that Obi wan sacrifices himself specifically so that Luke, han, leia and chewie can escape the death star. We know that Obi wan has already beat anikin once (into the lava pit) he doen't need to do it again, he's got nothing to prove. I don't think vader kills kenobi, he mearly passes away, ascends to a higher plain etc. At worst this distracts vader long enuf to allow Luke et al to escape. The "become more powerful line" is open to interpretation. Have you noticed how the door closes between vader and the hanger, blocking vader from luke et al. Maybe this is Kenobi acting through the force. What do you guys want? A neon ghost apearing to press the button?
If Kenobi hadn't ascended he couldn't have told luke in his x-wing to use the force, therefore the first death start wouldn't have been destroyed. Power can be interpreted differently. Some say George bush is the most powerful man on earth. It's not because he can kick everyones a$$.
Originally posted by Lord_FinnSon
So, from certain point of view, Obi-Wan thought(as a not-so-good Jedi master he were) that there was no way to turn Anakin back again after all those years, but instead Luke would have to kill him.
Hmmm, here's another way of looking at this. Obi-Wan said that Vader 'killed' Luke's father (Anakin), so maybe what he was really saying was that Luke had to 'kill' Vader so that Anakin would be restored.
Man, this is getting too deep. I think I'll go back to ST:TOS......:D
*Dammit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a Jedi...*
I disagree... The reason that people DO say that G.W.Bush is the most powerful man on the planet is because he HAS the power to kick everyone's ass...
and if you ask me, he's not the right guy to handle the power.
more n more of our imports are coming from outside the country
i have neva exectuded a guilty .... i mean innocent man
says it all for me ..... americans .... get rid of him ... as an ambassador for yer country hes about as good as Prince
Philip (queens hubby 4 those non-brits)
George W. Bush is the best President since Reagan , Hes the man
I agree with Prowl lightstar. If in fact Obi-Wan believed Luke to be the "only hope" for the Alliance/Rebellion, part of his self-sacrifice would be to ensure Luke's escape from the Death Star. ??
Imagine Obi-Wan back-pedalling towards the Falcon and drawing a big firefight out too early, jeopardizing Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie, R2, and C3PO's escape. Bad idea.
As for Qui-Gonn's fate, Maul gave him a cheap shot (albeit a deathly one). QG didn't "sacrifice" himself the way OB1
However,
Originally posted by sev707
. . . All im saying is that maybe star wars isnt as well-thought out as everyone thinks, . . . lucas isnt perfect u no, he is still coming up with new versions of episodes 4-6 to fill in al the empty gaps, so i bet that this "if u strike me down..." will be modified to fit the complete saga.
Touche.
Have you noticed how the door closes between vader and the hanger, blocking vader from luke et al. Maybe this is Kenobi acting through the force. What do you guys want? A neon ghost apearing to press the button?
Han specifically tells luke to shoot the panel that shuts the door blocking vader so that covers that.
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Have you ever noticed how jedi's deaths differ in star wars? Obi-Wan when struck down dissapears into nothingness and vader is somewhat shocked by this when he kicks around the close heap on the floor in confusion. Yoda also dissapears when he dies, But vader does not he is cremated by luke. My original thinking after seeing the original trilogy was that light users went on to a higher place and the dark did not but episode 1 changed that for me when we witnessed the death of Qui-gon. He simply died and yet again was cremated. It is my belief that those prepared to die (Yoda, Obi-Wan) make their ascension and simply disapear and do become stronger with the force. But I believe all light users do. Hence the image of Anakin skywallker at the end aswell. I just thought I'd point out that fact of how some vanished and others did not.
I believe Obi-wan felt he could assist look alot better if he could be this all powerful force to watch over him. Give him some good advice when he needed it. Luke might not have blown up the deathstar if it wasn't for Obi-wan's advice. And had Vader not gone out to personally shoot some ships down luke might have killed him right then and there.
I think he had a much better influence on Luke after his death. It allowed look to see the forces true power. being from an age where the force was practically dead. Knowing that obi-wan had gone to a better place and was always there to watch over him. His last words to luke "The force will be with you, Always" he knew the minute they got there he was not leaving with them. It was something that had to be done for luke to comprehend the full power of the force.
That's my outlook at least trash it if you must but I'm sticking to it.