After all, this is a cantina!

Barkeep! a round of drinks for myself and my dear friends!

I'll have another *hic* Alderaanian Ale, *hic* please.
What? Whaddaya *hic* mean "I've had enough"?!
I'll tell you when I've had enufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff fff*hic*fffffffffffffffffffffff..........

<slumps to floor>

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www.thereckoning.co.uk) (http://www.thereckoning.co.uk) - My Personal Starcruiser.

And barkeep, I'll have what she's having...

I'll have a Pink Lizard Thunderbolt.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

I'll take a Mad Mrelf, straight up.

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"Well, you were right about one thing, Master. The negotiations were short."
- Obi-Wan Kenobi

When Alcohol Becomes a Problem

By Ronald Pies, M.D.
WebMD Medical News

Alcohol-use disorders (AUDs) are probably the most common mental disorders in the United States: Nearly one person in seven suffers from an AUD at some time in his or her life. The prevalence of AUDs among men is about three-to-five times greater than among women. Nevertheless, alcohol can have serious consequences in women, since they are more sensitive to alcohol's damaging effects on the liver, heart and brain. Women also end up with higher blood levels of alcohol than men given the same amount consumed -- probably due to sex differences in how alcohol is broken down and distributed in body tissues.

The Scourge of Alcohol

Alcohol abuse and dependence does incalculable harm in the United States, accounting for about 5 percent of all deaths. The main health hazard associated with AUDs is cirrhosis of the liver, which was the ninth-leading cause of death in the U.S. in 1988. AUDs are also associated with driving accidents, violence and suicide. Very often, AUDs are accompanied by another psychiatric disorder such as a depression, anxiety or personality disorder. In some cases, AUDs can arise from attempts to "self-medicate" one of these other disorders with alcohol -- but in many cases the AUD is the primary, underlying disorder. Nevertheless, when an individual has both an AUD and a major mood or anxiety disorder, both problems must be addressed in treatment.

What causes "alcoholism" -- the common but poorly defined term usually applied to AUDs? This has been a source of controversy for decades, even among health-care professionals. The emerging consensus is that AUDs result from a complex interaction between biological and psychosocial factors. While the precise role of heredity in AUDs is not known, some types of AUDs appear to run in families, and are at least partly related to genetic factors. While blaming someone for having an AUD may be unjustified, holding the person responsible for getting help is critical. After all, diabetes is a biological disorder, but diabetics are still held accountable for taking their insulin.

Recognizing and Dealing with AUDs

How do you know when you or a loved one has developed a serious drinking problem? The actual amount of alcohol he or she drinks is not a good basis for answering this. Neither is the person's insistence that, "I can stop drinking anytime I want to." Most chronic alcoholics have stopped drinking for extended periods at one time or another, but that does not mean that they can control the problem without help: Almost always, the abstinent alcoholic will relapse unless he or she remains in some form of substance-abuse treatment. You should suspect an AUD when the person in question

Drinks larger amounts of alcohol than intended -- for example, the individual says, "I'm just going to have one for the road" and winds up downing five beers.

Spends a great deal of time drinking or recovering from drinking.

Has trouble meeting social, occupational or other important obligations.

Continues to drink even though alcohol has repeatedly caused physical or psychological problems.

Gradually needs more and more alcohol to get the same kick.

Experiences withdrawal symptoms (shaking, sweating, "seeing things") upon discontinuing alcohol use.

Constantly expresses annoyance when others express concern about his or her drinking, or has been told by a physician, employer or family member that he or she has a drinking problem.

Getting Help

The treatment of AUDs requires a thorough medical and psychological assessment. Concurrent physical disorders, vitamin deficiencies and potential psychiatric problems must be addressed. In some cases, a mood stabilizer or antidepressant may be part of the overall treatment plan. The medication naltrexone (ReVia) may help reduce the urge to drink and enhance abstinence in some patients but should be used in concert with psychotherapy or a twelve-step program, such as Alcoholics Anonymous.

A few studies support the use of disulfiram (Antabuse), a medication that induces nausea and other unpleasant reactions if the individual drinks. For families who must deal with a loved one's AUD, Al-Anon and similar support groups for families can be helpful. The key to success is helping the individual accept the need for help and insisting that he or she gets it.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Some may think TheAhnFahn is a "wet blanket" in going serious on the subject of alcoholism, but he makes a point.

There is good evidence to suggest that alcoholism (not alcohol itself, which is merely a chemical substance, and thus morally neutral) is responsible for a far greater toll in misery and death than most of us realize.

There is considerable evidence, for example, that it was alcoholism that led Joseph Stalin to order the policies that murdered some 25 million Soviet citizens. Alcoholism also accounts for Stalin's other destructive behaviors including his grandiose egomania, betrayal of close colleagues, and paranoid accusations against people who were actually his allies and supporters. When Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the USSR was late in responding (at the cost of thousands of Russian lives) because Stalin was on a week-long bender.

Other prominent historical figures almost certainly addicted to alcohol include Alexander the Great, Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Henry VIII, Huey Long, and Senator Joe McCarthy. Many serial killers, including Ted Bundy, Richard Speck, and Jeffrey Dahmer were out of control alcoholics. Alcoholism clearly played a role in the deaths of Ernest Hemingway, William Holden, and Gene Roddenberry. Statistically, the majority of murder victims and sexual assault victims are drunk at the time of their attacks--not perpetrators, victims.

Alcoholism doesn't just kill thousands each year on our highways. It is the hidden hand that rocks world events.

Something to think about.

--wiz

man, oh MAN! relax, peoples! have a drink! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

i never had these kinds of responses at theforce.net forums!

No doubt - take a chill pill. No one's talking about drinking 'till you barf. And for all you religious zealots, even Jesus drank wine, so if that's your moral compass, it was okay with him.

But as many of you already know, I'm agnostic, so things such as Jesus's approval doesn't have much weight with me.

If I'm not hurting anyone by having a drink, then mind your own business.

Now then, another round, on me...



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...




[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited March 22, 2000).]

I have a reason much closer to home about not drinking. I don't like the taste of alcohol. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif)

Of course, wine is supposed to do a lot to prevent heart disease. Winston Churchill drank a lot, "I have got more out of whiskey than whiskey has ever gotten out of me," (might not be exact) and he saved the world! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi



[This message has been edited by Conor (edited March 22, 2000).]

Conor,

That's a great reason to not drink alcohol, seriously. If you don't like it, then that's a perfectly legitimate reason.



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

???
I'm at a loss here. REASONS NOT TO DRINK? I could name thousands, but that is beside the point. Give me one good reason TO DRINK! If you are worried about heart disease keep a proper diet and exercise, it won't kill your kidneys and make you look like a complete idiot in front of your friends. Everyone I have every known who drinks alcohol and believes there is nothing wrong in doing so has said this to me: "Alcohol calms me down, makes me more relaxed with friends, helps me celebrate, etc." (some even admit it helps with problems in their life, although it only compounds these problems exponentially). This sounds like a social problem to me - a drug-induced means to adhere to the social norm. I'm happy with who I am and I don't need a chemical to alter the state of my brain. One thing I have learned over the years is that alcoholics and even light drinkers stick together. Same with smokers and drug addicts. The one thing all these types of people have in common is an addiction to a substance that is detremental to their health - and they know this. Just like some are doing here, they are trying to convince us alcohol is good because it is the only way they can convince themselves. Alcohol is not a way to enhance life. If you don't drink alcohol you aren't missing out on anything. The only reason to drink alcohol is to numb your brain so you are stupid enough to be ammused or pleased by anything. Is anyone with me here, or am I just classified with all the other anal, religious, paranoid, square, or uncool people that always ruin your fun?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

TAF,


...Give me one good reason TO DRINK!...


Because I like to. That's all the reason I need. I'm not harming you, and I happen to have a different opinion about drinking than you do. Furthermore, I'm not trying to persuade you to drink. Likewise, now that you've presented your views on drinking, which I respect by the way, please reciprocate by respecting the views of us who happen to disagree with you.

Cheers!



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

a reason to drink? it tastes good.

there is nothing like a frothy pint of Guinness in your hand that makes you feel like you're in heaven! (well, besides a good woman http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

TAF, if you choose not to drink, that's your thing, but I think you need to lighten up. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Do not equate drinking with getting drunk.

Vagabond:
When you might run me over in your car I have to say something, when you might have kids and teach them to drink and ruin their lives I have to say something, when you might accidentally mix just a tad bit of alcohol with some incompatible medication that kills you I have to say something. I appreciate that you respect my views, but this isn't a matter of opinion. I don't know what level of responsiblity you have when it comes to drinking. Why do you think mirajuana and cocaine are illegal? You are only harming yourself, so you say. Yes, we should have the freedom to inhale, inject, or swallow whatever we like, but people die from alcohol - innocent people, and it shouldn't be that way.

Ikhnaton:
Non-alcoholic beer, and it won't screw up your life. And again, it isn't a choice not to drink. It is a choice TO DRINK, and you just like every other person on this planet run a risk of forming a disease that kills. You say I shouldn't equate drinking with getting drunk. Ok, then I might as well believe getting a little buz from smoking a joint is ok but getting high isn't. It is a universal fact that the negative affects of alcohol FAR outweigh anything positive you can come up with, the only matter of opinion here is whether or not you are smart enough to know a bad thing. I think it takes an intelligent person to recognize that even if they have a strong conviction that they will never abuse alcohol, in the end this drug has caused millions of deaths, ruined millions of lives, and it is obvious even a highly self-conscious person can make the fatal error of even having one drink. Although you have made your choice, I highly recommend you reconsider. If not for yourself, you must do it for your children.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

TAF,

Respect you though I may, I'm unwilling to enter into a full-fledged debate with you on the virtues of drinking. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Both are valid, and that's all I have to say.

Bottoms up!



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Oh, just one more thought. If beer and women are the greatest things in your life I pray you never mix the two. Love between a man and woman should be something special that is shared not while intoxicated, but in a sober state of total giving to your partner.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Vagabond:
I understand, but I at least want you to recognize your opinion is the only one with a possible negative outcome.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

TAF,

Agreed. There are always possibilities, both positive and negative for virtually every action conceivable. One must find a rational, comfortable balance among these possibilities.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

taf, it is only because of the puritan influence that americans feel the way you do. if you go to europe with that same mentality, you might as well lock yourself up in your room.

drinking in europe is about socializing, as well as taste. In europe, as opposed to many people in the US, they do not drink to get drunk. It is fallacious to think so. And if it isn't fallacious, then Jesus was a drunkard.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with alcohol, just as there is nothing wrong with food. Too much of either can kill you or mame you.

one more thing, NA wine doesn't really exist, and if it did, it would taste like crap, as do most NA beers. And you sure as hell can't find NA stouts anywhere.

Calling those who drink irresponsible or drunkards is wrong and judgemental. I am very responsible when I drink. I never drink on an empty stomach or pound multiple shots or anything like that. If i do drink more than I think i should have, I have a DD.

yes, you can have a good time without drinking, but alcohol is a relaxant which can be actually good for you. My grandmother is over 80 and her doctor ordered her to have two highballs a day.

Like i said, don't knock it til you've tried it. By all means, don't ever get into drinking at a keg party or in college or something like that. if you ever decide to start drinking anything, make sure you are at a social event at someone's house where there are plenty of responsible adults there who won't give you any peer pressure. My parents raised us on wine with dinner. I've been able to have wine at dinner, supervised, since i was about 12. My parents would leave booze on the counter because they knew they could trust us. Since you were raised to fear alcohol and not respect it, your viewpoint is exactly the opposite.

Alcohol is not evil, not something to be feared, but something to be aware of and respected.

Hey! *hic!
Where'sh my Alderaanian ale?! *hic!*
You all make me shick! *hic!

Just joking. Alcoholism = bad....

Leeman

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www.thereckoning.co.uk) (http://www.thereckoning.co.uk) - My Personal Starcruiser.

Finally, someone agrees with me (besides Wiz, of course http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif)

Ike, let me tell you why I feel the way I do because you still don't understand where I am coming from. No, I don't think we should outlaw alcohol, even though the world would be a better place without it. This is the same with guns - some people hunt for sport with them and they think there is absolutely nothing wrong with having one for protection, even though more people die every year from handgun accidents than people who are saved with a gun.

That puritan influence is a load of crap. I only had one friend in high school who didn't drink alcohol, and my best friend finally figured out it was a bad thing and he stopped as well. This has NOTHING to do with influence - we are all humans and this chemical affects us in the same way. Opium used to be socially acceptable, tobacco used to be socially acceptable, so how do these differ from an alcohol?

You say "There is nothing intrinsically wrong with alcohol, just as there is nothing wrong with food. Too much of either can kill you or mame you." Too much of ANYTHING can kill you, even water. You can't differentiate good from bad when you say something like "I'm only doing a little bad so it doesn't make that much of a difference." If the amount of alcohol you drink doesn't affect you, why drink it at all?

You think I keep implying that everyone who drinks is a drunkard who will in all likelihood go kill someone while under the influence. Obviously I'm not that stupid. But here me out! Every reason you have given for wanting to drink is completely selfish. What is one ever to accomplish while they drink alcohol? Nothing. Think about that. I find that if you live for other people and love them there is no need to pleasure yourself with a lethal substance that has PROVEN to be a problem in all walks of life. Again, all this substance does is alter the state of your brain. If you aren't happy with who you are and alcohol changes that what more can I say?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

It promotes socializing. Obviously you don't know what it is like to stop at a bar for a drink or two to relax after a long stressful day at work. People who have had a drink or two relax and open up more and can talk and socialize more. Inhibitions are lowered. It doesn't make you a different person (unless you drink too much and are an angry drunk or something), what happens is that it is easier to express things that you normally might be shy or whatever to talk about.

I go to karaoke joints every so often. I know that when I get up there for the first time, each time that I go, even though i've done it a million times and love it, I still get shaky and nervous. Now, if i have a couple of drinks before I go up, it is a lot easier and not only am I relaxed, but my vocal chords are relaxed. This is obviously not high on your list of reasons to drink, but it ranks up there with mine.

People take sleeping pills or other sedatives to relax. do we chastise them? Obviously, too much of them can lead to sickness or death.

Your statement about "only doing a little bad" is based on the assumption that drinking alcohol in any amount is bad. Drinking alcohol is NOT bad. getting drunk IS. Eating food is not a bad thing, gluttony is. Gambling is not a bad thing. gambling away your families food money is. It is all about excess.

The effects of alcohol in moderation is not a bad thing either. Think of it as a medication, a stress reliever. You seem to think that chemicals that alter the body are bad things, but then you have to include any kind of medications or anti-depressants or things like that. Stress is a bad thing and is detrimental to your health. Alcohol relieves stress. Like I said, my grandmother's doctor prescribes two highballs a day to her. It obviously is not a bad thing in moderation. Jesus drank wine on many occassions. In fact, the Passover meal involved at least 3 glasses of wine, perhaps 4, but I'm not sure. Were all Jews doing wrong or drunkards?

Condemn those who get drunk, don't condemn the social drinkers who enjoy a good beer to relax after a hard day's work.

TAF,

Just to toss in some food for thought, if your sole argument is that alcohol introduces chemicals into your body which alter you consciousness, then you're about to be sorely disappointed: everything you eat introduces some type of chemical into your body, be it lettuce, chocolate, tea, sugar, starch, carbohydrates, and even alcohol. You seem to have applied a label of bad to alcohol based off of the fact that it introduces chemicals in your body. All these substances neutral. Place the blame on the people who consume these subances in an irresponsible manner.

Furthermore, why are you so obsessed with other peoples' behavior? Is it because some peoples' altered behavior could somehow affect your life, perhaps through a drunk driving accident? If so, wouldn't you then agree that you too are behaving "completely selfish"? If so, blaming all people drink alcohol for the drunk-driving accidents is like blaming all Germans for the acts of the Nazis in WW2, or saying a person of X nationality wronged me so all people of nationality X are bad. You seem to be making broad generalizations about those who don't see moderate drinking in the same evil light that you do.

Again, I've no interest in engaging in an all-out debate. Just wanted to point this out and perhaps get you to clarify your position.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Ike, you say "Alcohol relieves stress." Yes, this may partially be true because alcohol is a depressant, but for a frequent social drinker like yourself one of the main reasons you feel relieved is because you may have a mild addiction to this substance in which the simple act of drinking alcohol pleases you. You raise a good but improperly presented point when you say "Think of it as a medication, a stress reliever." This is a valid statement, but I don't see how you possibly treat it as so. If you do, more power to you, but a medication is a prescribed treatment by a learned medical doctor to treat mental and physical ailments. Your grandmother's doctor may have given her antidepressant pills for all I care, but should YOU use them? All I am saying is that you are taking on a drug and using it to treat your problems, and if/when your problems get worse it may be too late for you to stop the addiction. I can somewhat understand drinking to somehow boost social skills like you say it does (again, I'm happy just being me when I am around friends), but drinking to relieve a stressful day of work is VERY unhealthy, and yes to Vagabond - I have seen this exact form of behavior before in people close to me and it only gets worse.

Ike, if you are in such a stressful state and find it hard to relax and socialize with friends, step back and take a look at your life. Drinking could very well be as great for you as you say it is, but I'd personally seek medical advice before you make this kind of decision for yourself. I don't hold this view to condemn you - I seriously know a great deal about alcohol and I wish you would tell a doctor in complete honesty your drinking habits and see what is best for you.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

My "drinking habits" consist mainly of a couple of drinks every thursday night (woohoo! it's thursday!), and a happy hour on friday at the Knights of Columbus hall. Then on the weekend I might have a glass of wine or two with my family at dinner. Anything else is too sporadic to mention.

haven't you ever seen that fake advert?

"Beer. Helping ugly people have sex since 1869" (or some odd year, i don't remember)

why drink alchohol when you have caffeine?
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http://www.starwars.com/snapshot/1999/20/img/merchant_sm.jpg)
well, as long as health is second to money, nothing's gone wrong.

[This message has been edited by lightbulba (edited March 25, 2000).]

Sorry to be away so long, but deadline pressure is fierce at the moment. But I had to come back and make some observations. I won't mention names, I'm just going to quote comments and respond:

To the one who said:

man, oh MAN! relax, peoples! have a drink!
i never had these kinds of responses at theforce.net forums!

Actually, that reaction seems like an over-reaction to anything that theahnfahn or I had to say about the subject of alcoholism. Could it be the voice of denial I hear? http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

j/k, j/k, J/K!!


No doubt - take a chill pill. No one's talking about drinking 'till you barf. And for all you religious zealots, even Jesus drank wine, so if that's your moral compass, it was okay with him.


Yep. He drank it, and He even made it (remember the wedding at Cana). I already said that alcohol, as a substance, is morally neutral. I have beer and wine in my home, though I consume it rarely and sparingly. And if it was ever illegalized, I'd never miss it.

It's alcohol-ISM that's the issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, no, actually, it's more than that. It's an ATTITUDE toward alcohol that I find alarming in this country.

For example: The idea that you need alcohol to have a good social time (I don't need it for socializing--I have a great time wherever I am, whoever I'm with--I don't need the ability to laugh at wallpaper in order to enjoy myself and others).


If I'm not hurting anyone by having a drink, then mind your own business.

Okay. But plenty of people who think they're social drinkers, who think they don't have a problem, ARE a problem, ARE hurting others. Problem with alcoholism is that people never think they've got a problem until they've either killed someone or destroyed their marriage (or other important relationships) or gotten date-raped or pregnant while drunk or somesuch thing. You can't tell a guy with a quart-of-gin-a-day habit that he's got a problem until he absolutely hits bottom--and by that time, he's already taken a bunch of other people to the bottom with him.

I have a friend who began drinking at age 13 (she thought she was in heaven when that first splash of Southern Comfort hit the back of her throat). Alcohol destroyed her marriage, many of her friendships, her career. Though many people told her she had a problem, she honestly could not see it until the day she landed in the hospital with a distended liver, with a hole in her esophagus from the gin she was drinking, with her gums bleeding and hair coming out in clumps. The doctor told her if she didn't stop drinking, she would die. She said, "You mean, like months or years from now, right?" He said, "I mean, days or weeks." That's when she got into AA. Even when she went to AA, she didn't believe them when they called her an alcoholic; "I've got a problem quitting, sure," she said, "but I'm not an alcoholic." The self-deception and denial that this stuff engenders is unbelievable.

TheAhnFahn says:

One thing I have learned over the years is that alcoholics and even light drinkers stick together. Same with smokers and drug addicts.

That's true. People generally stick with people who support and affirm their own vices--that way there's no judgment, no one to tell you you're overstepping a line. If I had a lot of friends, or even a few friends, who drank in my presence to the point of having a change in personality, I would take a serious look at myself and my own habits.

To anyone who would agree with the following statement, I have a question:

there is nothing like a frothy pint of Guinness in your hand that makes you feel like you're in heaven! (well, besides a good woman )

There's the statement, here's the question:

What is it about that pint of Guinness that makes you feel good? What exactly is the sensation you are seeking to achieve? Please describe it.

Understand, I like an occasional beer or glass of wine or Margarita. But I never go for a second beer or a third glass of wine. It's not that I may be driving. It's that I don't want to reach the level where my thinking is affected, I feel woozy, and my inhibitions drop. I am not seeking the sensation that it sounds like other contributors to this thread are going for. Am I right?

If a pint of Guinness puts you in heaven, I'm betting it's not your first pint. And I'm betting it's the sensation of drink, not the taste of drink that is your goal. Am I right?

And before you answer me, first be honest with yourself.

See, I always see big red flags when I hear people say, "You need to lighten up. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Do not equate drinking with getting drunk." Maybe that's true. But denial sounds exactly like that.

Exactly.


taf, it is only because of the puritan influence that americans feel the way you do. if you go to europe with that same mentality, you might as well lock yourself up in your room.
drinking in europe is about socializing, as well as taste. In europe, as opposed to many people in the US, they do not drink to get drunk. It is fallacious to think so. And if it isn't fallacious, then Jesus was a drunkard.


This is a distortion of the US-Europe comparison. The puritanism shot is pure BS. Puritanism did not create an unhealthy attitude toward alcohol. The good ol' boy, bottoms up, let's have another round, the drinks are on me attitude, that's the problem, not puritanism.

You can't look at Europe as a whole and say there is a different attitude, so there's no problem. Look at it country by country. Go to France or Italy, and everyone grows up drinking wine. It's a table drink like Kool Aid for kids, and there is very little alcoholism in those countries because alcohol is no big deal.

But go to Ireland, and you have a situation much like America, where there is an attitude that drinking makes you a real man. The more you drink, the better you "hold" your liquor, the more of a man you are. That's the Irish attitude, that's the American attitude, that's the pint of Guinness in your fist is heaven attitude, and the result, both in Ireland and USA, is rampant alcoholism. It's that attitude (not puritanism, for cry-yi-yi-ing out loud!!!) that produces the problem.

Where wine is not a big deal, not a male rite of passage, alcoholism is not a big deal either.

So the net-net of it all, is that the comments that started out this thread are the kind of comments and attitudes toward alcohol that are indicative of the problem. I don't condemn alcohol per se, I use it. But it's no big deal with me. I don't drink it as a male rite of passage or to lubricate my social life or to get a buzz.

I not knocking the substance. But I think the attitude I've seen on this thread (Bartender! Set up a glass and leave the bottle! Whoopee! I'm in heaven!) is juvenile and stupid and it really sucks.

--wiz

Tell you what, while we're on the subject of bashing alcohol why not have a go at smoking as well.
I've noticed a lot of people who don't drink think people that do just do it to get hampstered, an exageration of huge proportions.
It can be abused, but doesn't have to be. I like the taste, that's it, the effect is secondary.
And don't give any of that 'non-alcoholic' spiel cos it tastes foul.

Well Ike, if you ever get to go to Europe, as in the continent, not Britain, I recommend:
Pelforth - French Brown Ale
Chimay - Belgian Trappist Beer

I've been to almost every country on the continent, as well as Ireland and Scotland. The attitude is sooo different on the continent, at least.

The Puritans taught basically that anything that was pleasurable was wrong, including alcohol. They infiltrated the US in New England and some of the other colonies and their views spread. Then the local governments started enforcing laws about alcohol that were pretty stringent and then a down the road, look what you got. Prohibition! If that isn't Puritan influence, I don't know what the hell is.

Wiz, you equivocate my "being in heaven" with a frothy pint of Guinness to a mental state or a chemically induced state of mind. I love the taste of Guinness. I love the taste of beer, wine, liquor. I rarely have ever drunk just for the alcohol. I admit that there have been times I have drunk for the effects and not the taste. Most of the time, I do drink for the taste.

I love Guinness. It is the best tasting stuff I've ever had. That first sip is just the best. Same thing as when I take the first sip of a coke, or the first bite of a juicy steak. It's the taste.

Wiz,


...The idea that you need alcohol to have a good social time...


I never made that statement because I don't agree with it. I usually engage in social events that involve no drinking whatsoever, and I enjoy myself. However, I do occassionally engage in social events that do have drinking, and I enjoy myself in those situations as well.

It seems to me that you're making broad generalizations about anyone who says that he or she has enjoyed consuming an alcoholic beverage. What would make you comfortable wiz? If we said that we occassionaly drank alcohol, but we hated every bit of it? Is it not possible for us to actually enjoy a beer without being an alcoholic?

I suggest that you not jump to the conclusion that simply because someone actually enjoys consuming an alcoholic beverage, that the person in question is then automatically an alcoholic. Making such assumptions is both offensive to those you accuse, and makes you appear as a holier-than-thou puritan who has nothing better to do than to lecture people on morality.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Drinking Rulz! everyone have a tattooine sunburn on me!

I agree with the anti-alcoholism crowd (sorry, but I got tired of keeping track of names). I'm the only guy at this college who doesn't drink, and it's both because I have better things to spend my money on and because people around here (or rather around Residence, where I'm currently living) drinks to the point of insanity.

But, since this is a cantina, I'll indulge in the Official Drink of the Jedi Knights.

Barkeep, one hot chocolate --with marshmallows.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

I don’t drink very often, but I do drink. I’ll be honest, I don’t like the taste of alcohol, per se, but I have tasted, for example, a strawberry Daiquiri with and without alcohol, and the one with rum tasted a lot better. When I do drink, I usually drink with the intention of feeling the effects of the alcohol, else I would just get a Coke. Yes, I admit it. But, I also believe that getting drunk is wrong. And these are my own personal beliefs. I know that people who don’t drink probably don’t understand, but there is a difference between drinking a couple of drinks and feeling “relaxed” and more sociable, and getting drunk.

Drinking and driving is wrong. Drinking to the point where you would do things that you would normally not do is wrong. These are my opinions, and I’m not saying that I’ve never gotten drunk. Overall, I’d say, yes, I think we’d all be better off without it, and if drinking ever became illegal again, I certainly would not break the law. I guess I just wanted to say that I understand the viewpoint of those who are totally against it, and I would also say that if you’ve never had a drink and you don’t want to start drinking, don’t. You’re not missing out on anything major. It’s like owning a gun. You take on a certain responsibility, and some people just can’t handle that. Everything in moderation, I believe.

BTW, I'll have a Martini, two olives. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif)

have another drink, sweetie, off me... er... i mean, on me http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

I'll go with the.......er......hmmm.......do they do ID checks in here?

jk


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I feel the need to say something profound, but I'm drawing a blank.

Everyone raises good points, and I have absolutely nothing to criticize, so let me give some advice. What I will try to present is the heart of the matter - the first decision we must all make, and once we have made that decision we can form our arguments either way. That is why we have such varied and split views on this subject matter.

Face it people, it is as simple as this - the choice to drink alcohol is entirely selfish. It can't be anything more, it just can't. People don't make friends with alcohol, they make friends with people who drink alcohol. There is no purpose to drinking it except for personal pleasure. There is nothing it can do to please anyone else. If the only affect it has is for personal satisfaction why does it still ruin so many lives, kill millions, worry people like me? I'll tell you.

You aren't accomplishing anything. You're living your life and doing something for yourself that may hurt others. You may get to the point where you hurt yourself, and that isn't how life is supposed to be. Taste? Sure, let's compare alcohol to a softdrink. It isn't healthy, it isn't purposeful to drink alcohol. What makes it different than Root Beer? Root Beer is a taste, a satisfaction that brings pleasure that is realized through a given sense. ALCOHOL doesn't do this. Alcohol isn't bringing pleasure in any other means than to feed the addiction you formed from drinking it in the first place. It is a depressant, a drug that alters our perceptions and our pleasures. It doesn't bring true pleasure, it feeds an artificial pleasure.

Does alcohol help in social situations, does it taste good to you? Go ahead and say yes, I'll agree it does. But there are other things in life that will do this as well. Once, twice, or sometimes even three times a week my family gets together for a drink. A fruit drink. I'm the chef of the family, so I take some strawberry daiquiri mix, two limes, a banana, some pineapple icecream, an orange, and a bunch of ice and blend that stuff. My brothers help me and it is fun. We all drink it together and the taste is heavenly. Everyone feels a peace. It's one of the many things we get to do together as a family. Are we not getting everything out of alcoholic drinks I've heard so far, except NO ALCOHOL, no addictive substance that dulls the mind?

Nobody needs alcohol, nobody. Many want it. Some recognize the decision is entirely selfish. Few don't drink it at all. The decision was easy for me to make.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

[This message has been edited by theahnfahn (edited March 28, 2000).]

Ike--

(btw, welcome back to the forum!)

Re:

The attitude is sooo different on the continent, at least.

Exactly my point. The important difference twixt us and them is that the attitude toward wine and beer in places like France and Italy is blase, indifferent, no big deal. Wherever alc. beveragers are no big deal, alcoholism is no big problem. Wherever drinking is viewed as something that makes a man of you, alcoholism is rampant.


The Puritans taught basically that anything that was pleasurable was wrong, including alcohol. They infiltrated the US in New England and some of the other colonies and their views spread.


Puritans. Those are the guys who wear their belt-buckles on their hats, right? Haven't seen too many Puritans around lately. I don't think there's a Puritan church in my town. Haven't seen much Puritanism on my TV set or my radio or at the local video store lately. I don't think Puritanism has been any kind of potent force in these United States for a looooooooooooong time.

I also don't think Puritanism has much to do with TheAhnFahn's belief system. At least, in religious matters he and I have been discussing these past few months on these very forums, I haven't detected a particle of ye olde Puritanism.

Puritanism certainly isn't part of my makeup or background. There's an open bottle of Domaine St. George California White Zin in my fridge, and half a case of Natural Ice beer in my pantry--not the usual accoutrements of ye olde Puritans.

So that dog don't hunt.

My problem (I'll say again) is not with people who drink per se and it's not with the substance C2H5OH. My problem is with the attitude that drinking is cool, that drinking makes a man of you, that drinking is a necessary ingredient to social interaction, that drinking is the key to a good time. That attitude has a direct linkage with alcohol abuse. If our culture had the same sensible, no-big-deal attitude about drinking that you find on the continent, I'd have no objection.

But our culture fixation on alcohol is distorted, dysfunctional, unhealthy, immature and dangerous. I detected elements of that attitude in the discussion/banter that was developing in this thread, and that's why I responded.

--wiz

P.S.

Ike, re:


I go to karaoke joints every so often. I know that when I get up there for the first time, each time that I go, even though i've done it a million times and love it, I still get shaky and nervous. Now, if i have a couple of drinks before I go up, it is a lot easier and not only am I relaxed, but my vocal chords are relaxed.


If a drink ever induced me to sing in a karaoke bar, I'd be in AA faster than you can sing the first line to "Feelings"!

--wiz

Vagabond--

Re:

It seems to me that you're making broad generalizations about anyone who says that he or she has enjoyed consuming an alcoholic beverage. What would make you comfortable wiz? If we said that we occassionaly drank alcohol, but we hated every bit of it? Is it not possible for us to actually enjoy a beer without being an alcoholic?


I don't think I've made a single broad generalizaion. I think I've made a very finely sharpened point relative to attitudes about drinking. The questions you pose are absurd. I previously stated that I myself enjoy an occasional drink, but I do so without the Irish/American attitude toward alcohol which says that drinking is a rite of passage, a social lubricant, and a general all-around hoot. (Ironically, I am an Irish-American, and my great-grandfather used to run a sour-mash still in Tennessee http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif) ).


I suggest that you not jump to the conclusion that simply because someone actually enjoys consuming an alcoholic beverage, that the person in question is then automatically an alcoholic.


I challenge you to find any such statement in my previous posts.


Making such assumptions is both offensive to those you accuse, and makes you appear as a holier-than-thou puritan who has nothing better to do than to lecture people on morality.

This Puritan labeling is getting kind of tiresome. It doesn't wash, but if I was a Puritan, I guess I'd have to start a new thread about the religious intolerance that's practiced towards Puritans around here (j/k!). If you think my comments make me "appear" to be a Puritan, what can I say? Seems Puritanism is in the eye of the beholder.

I've made it clear what my point is, and it is specifically targeted on an attitude toward alcohol. It is not targeted at a substance, a person, or the mere enjoyment of a drink now and then (something I myself do).

Here's an example (or more precisely, a metaphor) of the kind of harm I think this sick American cultural attitude toward drinking does in our society:

Every day, when I pick up my daughter from high school, I see a bunch of kids walking past my car smoking cigarettes. Why do they do it? It's illegal, and in theory it can get them kicked out of school (though the rule against smoking on campus, at least as kids are leaving campus, never seems to be enforced). But kids smoke because they think it makes them appear (1) cool and (2) more grown up. In reality, it makes them look like pathetic little twerps who are desperately trying to appear grown up.

When I see people make a big deal about drinking, I have the same impression of them that I have of the high school kids with the cigarettes. I don't think that of people just quietly having a drink, but I do get that impression of people noisily making a big deal about drinking. To me, it looks pathetic, it looks like people are trying to make an impression: Look at me, I'm drinking! Look at how cool and sophisticated I am!

That kind of dysfunctional relationship with alcohol is epidemic in our society. That doesn't mean I'm saying you drink like that. I'm not criticizing your drinking. I've never seen you drink. I don't know you. Don't take it personally.

I'm just saying we have a sick, dysfunctional society where alcohol is concerned, and it seemed to me that some of that societal attitude was reflected right here on this thread.

--wiz

My cousin got me to try some amarreto(sp?) once, and that stuff had the most incredible taste. I normally don't like the stuff, but this was amazing. Liquid candy... http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif)

From personal experience, I know it is utter nonsense to say alcohol is addictive in small doses. My parents have something like 2 or 3 beers a year, and not much more wine. They could go the rest of their lives without it if they wanted to. Same with my other relatives who have a drink every once in a while.

I'll certainly defend the statement that there is nothing wrong with alcohol in and of itself. I seriously doubt that everyone I'm related to is a fluke in that they never have any problems with it.

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

I also don't think Puritanism has much to do with TheAhnFahn's belief system. At least, in religious matters he and I have been discussing these past few months on these very forums, I haven't detected a particle of ye olde Puritanism.

Not even a particle? :'O(

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Brother AhnFahn,

Have I misjudged thee?

Art thou a Puritan after all?

--Ye Olde Wizzywig

Seriously, AhnFahn--

I just meant that I had the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that your beliefs and attitudes regarding alcohol did not come from any religious base but from actually seeing people who had drinking problems. In other words, your attitudes are arrived at on the basis of observation and experience rather than any kind of moralistic indoctrination or religious tradition--am I correct?

--wiz

wiz, the whole thing about the puritans is that their philosophies have trickled down through the years and traces can still be found in society to this day.

ahnfahn, if you claim that drinking suits only selfish motives, then you need to stop certain other things like eating sweets of any kind. After all, it is only for the taste, and not nutritional value that you eat it. and the bad effect outweigh the good.

My points about puritan influences still present today are pretty much proven by theahnfahn's statements, I think.

wiz,


..If I had a lot of friends, or even a few friends, who drank in my presence to the point of having a change in personality, I would take a serious look at myself and my own habits...What is it about that pint of Guinness that makes you feel good? What exactly is the sensation you are seeking to achieve? Please describe it...It's that I don't want to reach the level where my thinking is affected, I feel woozy, and my inhibitions drop. I am not seeking the sensation that it sounds like other contributors to this thread are going for...If a pint of Guinness puts you in heaven, I'm betting it's not your first pint. And I'm betting it's the sensation of drink, not the taste of drink that is your goal...I don't condemn alcohol per se, I use it. But it's no big deal with me...


Take a look at what I've quoted you as saying here, and look at it objectively. To summarize, from my point of view, you come into what is obviously a light-hearted thread, and then start making judgements about people in here based off of your own personal beliefs toward alcohol.

Some of your apparent beliefs:

You don't want friends who drink such that their mental state is altered whatsover.
Implied is that you don't want to drink such that your own mental state is altered whatsover.
Implied is that since you hold the previous two beliefs, that everyone else should hold those beliefs as well.
And by your last statement, you seem somewhat hypocritical in that you yourself drink, but only because you drink "responsibly" - that is without the desire for mental alteration according to you.


And now for some further analysis:


...If you think my comments make me "appear" to be a Puritan, what can I say? Seems Puritanism is in the eye of the beholder...Could it be the voice of denial I hear?...


I don't know, is it the voice of denial? Perhaps you should more thoroughly examine yourself and your beliefs to determine whether or not you possess puritan-like values. From my limited exposure to your beliefs, it rather looks that way. What's the saying? If it looks like a puritan and sounds like a puritan Or how about, A puritan by any other name would still be as conservative.


...When I see people make a big deal about drinking, I have the same impression of them that I have of the high school kids with the cigarettes...


When I see people make a big deal about religion, I have the same impression of them that I have of the inquisitors and the crusaders. That can cut both ways my friend. Impressions don't mean squat. Get to know the people before you start spewing accusations of alcoholism.

And for the record, I personally believe that smoking is a foul habit. But as long as they do it such that it doesn't affect me in any way, then more power to them. That's what Republicanism is all about isn't it? (I'm making the assumption that you're a republican based off of your highly conservative social statements) Small government and power to the people, right?


...I don't think that of people just quietly having a drink, but I do get that impression of people noisily making a big deal about drinking...


Again, impressions don't mean squat. And even if someone did make a lot of noise, and enjoyed getting a buzz from drinking, and becoming less socially inhibited, you know what? Big deal. If that type of thing doesn't suit you, then by all means you shouldn't partake in such behavior. No one's asking you to (maybe that's part of the problem). But by the same token, you have no right to condemn others for enjoying an activity that doesn't harm you, and by all external warrants is causing them not large measure of harm. True, they might be alcoholics. It's also true that they might be celebrating their son's graduation from college; a celebration need not be a subdued, quiet affair. It's true, some people are actually extroverted, loud and boistrous. These traits do not make them alcoholics. Again, snap judgements are unfounded.


...I'm just saying we have a sick, dysfunctional society where alcohol is concerned, and it seemed to me that some of that societal attitude was reflected right here on this thread...


We have two different views of what was going on here. You saw the bad, I saw the fun, light-heartedness of the post. Could there be alcoholics posting in this thread? Could be. I have insufficient data to make such a statement. And so do you. So unless you actually have credible evidence to prove your suspiscions, why don't you just lighten up and stop raining on everyone's parade. Learn to have fun. Don't be so preachy. And for the love of God, don't be afraid of losing control once in a while. It can be very liberating. And always remember, no one likes a control freak.

P.S. I actually think you're a pretty good person wiz. I just think you tend to get up on your soap box a bit too much. Too much for my liking anyway. If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif)


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

ahnfahn, if you claim that drinking suits only selfish motives, then you need to stop certain other things like eating sweets of any kind. After all, it is only for the taste, and not nutritional value that you eat it. and the bad effect outweigh the good.

Yes, you raise a good point, and I must have not presented my case to you. Do I think it is healthy to eat sweets all the time? No. I don't do it all the time. I never have been overweight and I never will be. Is candy as harsh as alcohol, does it alter perceived reality? Alcohol does, candy does not.

Why do I not consider myself a hypocrite? Candy tastes good. I could just as easily let it sit on my tounge and enjoy the taste, afterwards spitting it out. What do you think gum is? I don't swallow the candy knowing it will have an affect on me. But you do this with alcohol. You have conjoined taste and social relaxation with a harmful depressant.

Now, why do I think drinking alcohol is selfish, yet turn it right around and say eating candy is not? Eating candy is a way to enjoy life, to please yourself without harming yourself or anyone else. It is a celebration, not an open want to change the way you act and think. I'm not going to go for candy when my friends show up and I feel I should fit in. I don't need it to do silly things that the real me wouldn't normally do, like go up on stage and sing at a bar. You have openly admitted, whether you know it or not, that alcohol makes you a different person. It has an affect on who you are. When this is the case, you are using it to become something you are not. I don't eat candy to do this, I eat it to please the real me, not some other person I look forward to becoming once a week in a bar.

Now do you see what I mean? Pleasure nearly always comes at a cost, but certain costs can't be mistaken for the day-to-day lives we all live. You can't tell me that if I eat candy I am no different than you when you drink alcohol because both can have a negative affect. I might as well not eat any food at all - too much of it will make me fat so I shouldn't even do it at all. The selfishness I put forth was not to say doing things to please yourself and nobody else is wrong. My point is that doing things to yourself that make you feel better yet change who you are, and as a result change others' perception of you, is selfish.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

TAF,


...My point is that doing things to yourself that make you feel better yet change who you are, and as a result change others' perception of you, is selfish...


So, if someone goes to college, educates him or herself, learns more about the world thereby changing him or herself, resulting in the person feeling better about him or herself, then I guess that person is just a selfish bastard, according to your personal definition of what selfish is.

Furthermore TAF, just because you personally don't like the idea of consuming a substance which alters your personality in some way, doesn't mean that it is wrong. It just means that TAF doesn't like it and shouldn't do it. It doesn't mean that those people who don't mind feeling relaxed or getting a slight buzz from the occassional drink are alcoholics. You just have a philosophical disagreement with the side-effects of drinking alcohol. And to be honest, that's perfectly cool with me. What's not cool is you preaching to all of us to do as you do because you seem to think that you know what's best and us other adults are incapable of rational reasoning. I believe you and wiz are behaving in a very condescending manner and I greatly resent it.



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

alcohol, unless consumed in large quantities does not have a vast change on your personality. Sure it relaxes some of your inhibitions, which enables some of your more hidden traits come forth, but that doesn't mean you are a different person.

I am a hypoglycemic. When I get hungry, I get grouchy, cranky, etc. Then I eat something and the chemical reaction changes me again.

What about bipolars? Who they are is that bipolar person. They, in their native state, are that manic depressive person. Yet they take personality altering chemicals. Again, why is this no different? I drink alcohol because I like the taste, and one of the nice effects is that I get more relaxed and am able to communicate more freely with others, which to me is good, considering I am a fairly shy person. All of the stuff I communicate is inside me, but my inhibitions and self consciousness prohibit me. This doesn't mean it isn't possible without alcohol, it is just easier.

The fact of the matter is, there is nothing more wrong about drinking alcohol than there is about eating food. Doing either to excess is wrong, but just doing it in moderation is not wrong and it is wrong, IMO, to condemn those who do drink in moderation; either by the false assumption that they are drunkards or by claiming they are selfish. You're just as selfish by trying to impose your views on us and comdemning us.

If Jesus drank, then it's good enough for me.