Actually, I'm not sure if I believe in free will (or the opposite, fate).

I guess I WANT to believe in free will. I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my destiny (to quote "the Matrix").

However, it's just my belief, for all I know, we're all just following pre-set patterns, or perhaps our ends are inescapable.

Whether or not the existence of free will proves or disproves a God, I can't say. What do you think?

Perhaps God knows the future, but it is constantly changing, because of the choices we make? So then God would have to simply recalculate the ends every time anything happens (that's alot of processing power). Thus you could have your cake and eat it to.. maybe.

Kurgan

As for why I don't just come out and say it, it's because I can't. Like I said, to come out and say full on, "I believe in God", or "I don't believe in God" takes a leap of faith since no concrete evidence exists to support either statement.

Just to answer an older comment of your's Vag, to say you believe would not take a leap of faith. The "best evidence" etc that you have tells you.. X.

If you believe the question is unanswerable, then you could say that.

I'm not asking you to definitively say "There is a God" or "There is no God."

Which one makes more sense to you? Or are you simply saying that no matter what, you don't WANT to pose a theory, or you just don't know. If that's the case, say "I don't know" (don't worry, no green slime will fall on your head for saying it). That way, you can ride the fence until an answer comes (or wait forever).

I have some catching up to do!

Vagabond (again): I didn't realize you understood the concept of the Trinity and was just playing Devil's Advocate. You acted like you didn't.

Look, the evidence is:

The Bible. IF the Bible is the word of God, then you can bet it's authoritative, right? God's telling you what's what. The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God, and one and the same substance with God. The Holy Spirit, is "another comforter" that Jesus sent, that is "My Spirit." I don't think it was just "thrown in there." Three might seem like a magic number, but I think it makes enough sense in this case.

The Apostolic tradition. If the Apostles were right about Jesus, (that is they understood his message correctly), then they would have passed this on and taught it to others, etc. There is evidence that the Early Christians (those under the teaching authority of the Aposltes) believed in the Trinity. That is, first, second, and third century Christians (many prominent ones too) mention the Trinity, and the members, etc. They seem to be in agreement (ignoring of course fringe groups of heretics that come along every so often).

If Jesus was wrong, then the Bible is wrong, and so were the Apostles, and hence the Orthodox and Catholic Churches (and thus the Protestant Churches in so much as they agree with the Catholic and Orthdox) and thus Christianity is wrong. Makes sense?

All we know about Jesus comes from those two sources (Bible and Apostolic Tradition).

Historically, we know alot of the people who were mentioned as living alongside Jesus really existed, such as Caiphas, Pontius Pilate, Herod, etc.

Well, there are other sources, but they say next to nothing (Josephus being one). The Dead Sea Scrolls appear to be talking about Jesus, of course they call him the "Wicked Priest" (there is evidence they were enemies of Jesus.. John the Baptist was their guy, not Jesus, in their minds, the world was coming to an end, and Jesus had failed in his mission).

Do you doubt the existence of Jesus? It sounds like you acknowledge that he existed.

Kurgan

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 27, 2000).]

Sorry for the long string of posts, I'm just trying to break up my posts so Vag will read them. ; )

Now, it seems we're fluctuating between two topics. Was Jesus really God? and Does God exist?

I ask you, if Jesus was not God, why should we listen to him, anymore than any other ancient "philosopher?" If God does not exist, then what does that say about Jesus?

Kurgan

Darth Kurgan and TheAhnFahn--

Two quotes on Free Will:

"We must believe in free will. We have no choice."
ISAAC BASHEVIS SINGER :-)

And, on a more sober note:

"I am impressed by the ability of individuals who exhibit compulsive behavior, such as an addiction to alcohol or drugs, to alter the course of their self-destructive behavior either through the strength of their free will or the appeal to a transcendent power to help support that will. No animal can do that. The dignity of our humanity rests on the evidence that our will is free."
HEINZ R. PAGELS
The Dreams of Reason
(New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988)
pp. 229-230.

--da wiz

Nice quotes, I like that first one. ; )

Btw, I found a site that debunks most of what that Muslim guy (his name is Ahmed Deedat) said about how the Bible and Christianity were all corrupted and false, etc (while Islam and the Qu'ran were not). The site is pretty good, although they don't seem to proofread their pages (alot of typos), and they get some facts wrong (about the canon of scripture). Still, they poke alot of holes in that guy's arguments (which isn't suprising).

Ahmed Deedat's page (the original one I mentioned in another post):
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/1053/contents.html)

I was curious as to how traditional Christians would respond to his arguments against their teachings/beliefs, but then I found the other site.

Rebuttals of Deedat's writings:
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/)

Kurgan