Greetings, Vaquel, and welcome to the fray--

Re:

I "think" that the people who really think alien life exists, or want it to, have just grown bored of, or given up on, the human race.

I tend to believe in ETIs (and ET life in general), and I think I'm fairly optimistic about the prospects for the human race (though just as soon as I get a little too optimistic, some representative of our fair species comes along and busts my chops and brings me back to reality).

My beliefs are founded in evidences such as the Cydonia structures (the latest attempt by NASA to photograph the region and "debunk" the face on Mars was so pathetic it only reinforced my belief that there's something up there). I have a friend who was on the original SRI team that did the photographic analysis for Richard Hoaglund. I'm convinced that the Monuments of Mars evidence is very real.

There's a lot more to this universe of ours than meets the eye.

Re:
I was very religious, thinking myself a servant of God, if not personally in close ties with the "Master Plan". I won't go into how exactly I was repeatedly humbled and shown what I have come to believe is the "real truth", but suffice it to say I am only intermittenly cynical now, and I think there is still hope for humanity.

I'd be interested in the specifics of your "real truth," which you might sometime explain, either here or in the New God Thread in the Racer forum. You might also want to check out the original "Does God Exist?" thread in the Racer forum--it can't be accessed from the main Racer page due to a glitch of some sort, but it can be accessed from the links in the first message of the New God Thread--or I can email you the entire thread in a Word97 file (it's 2.9 MB, so beware!).

C'ya...

--wiz

I have posted further reasons for believing in ETIs in a separate thread, "Alien Life at Roswell?" in the Cantina.

--wiz

I found a site that's loaded with links to info on the Martian meteorites and possible microbes and nanobes therein. It is: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/snc/index.html)

A quick scan of some of the linked articles tells me that scientists are tending to view any lifeforms in Martian objects as having evolved from the same stock as Earth lifeforms. In other words, life arose once in our solar system, then migrated as the result of asteroid and comet collisions early in the history of our solar system sending chunks of life-bearing debris out into space where it rained down and "contaminated" other planets with life.

Now the question remains: Where did the first lifeforms originate? On earth? Or on a much earlier, warmer, wetter Mars?

--wiz

Vaquel,

Welcome. My personal thought is that there probably is alien life in the universe. Not because it comforts me, brings me some sort of soulful bliss, or even gives me hope that something better than Humanity lies out there somewhere. The reasons for my supposition are rather sterile actually.

I think that extra-terrestrial life exists because, from my own common sense, it would be statistically improbable for it to not exist. Yes, I know that there are others who feel differently, and bring up their own numbers to prove their sincerity. But make no mistake. We Humans are far to ignorant to understand the circumstances in which life can flourish. We can't even see beyond our own backyard, leaving us an insigificant statistical population of one star system to study. However, using our own system as a template, I find it very probable that other similar star systems exist among the billions of stars in our very own Galaxy, forget the rest of the universe. And if other star systems similar to our own exist in our galaxy, then the door is open to the development of life, and hence intelligent life as well. Furthermore, if there is at least one other galaxy among the millions in the universe that are similar to our own, then again, the possibilities of life increase accordingly, etc, etc, etc.

So, I feel that alien life is probable, not because I want to believe, but because it seems more likely that it could exist, than it could not.

wizzywig,

Incidently, I don't believe that there are alien structures on Mars. I've observed the side-by-side of the first -vs- the latest images of the face on Mars photos. It is clear that there is no face structure, and that the face was mearly shadows falling in a coincidental pattern that created the image of a face. I do believe that Mars may have once had life, and perhaps still does have some microbial life. But I doubt that intelligent life arose on Mars.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

We are all but actors, and the world is our stage...



[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited February 15, 2000).]

You may be right, Vagabond.

I personally suspect, however, based on evidence Richard C. Hoagland has uncovered, that NASA doctored the more recent photo--not by anything as crude as actually manipulating or "airbrushing" segments of the image, but by screwing around with the display resolution. Hoagland's analysis indicates the most recent NASA image presents only half the spatial resolution data received by the orbiting camera. The image also only offers 42 grayscale values out of a possible 256. Other images sent back by the same mission were of the full-resolution, 256-value variety.

Why did NASA base its case on an image of such degraded quality? Why did NASA deliberately choose to position Mars Global Surveyor in such a way as to obtain such an oblique angle of the "face"? Why did NASA use high-pass filtering on the image, which washes out most of the valuable grayscale information? It's the equivalent of putting gauze over your camera lens when taking a snapshot--not the best way to gather quality evidence, IMO.

Here's the side-by-side comparison you are talking about:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/mars/s_c-s1_13.jpg)

Vagabond, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there are a lot of unanswered questions about these photos in my mind. And the analysis of the entire Cydonia region shows mathematical regularities and structures that suggest intelligent construction. It could all be a trick of light and shadow, of course, but IMO the evidence is still out, and NASA has done little to resolve the matter.

Why would NASA engage in a coverup? Back in the 1960s, the Brookings Institution did a study for NASA that recommended that if the government ever found evidence of ETIs, the evidence should be suppressed because it would bring about social collapse. One of the contributors to that study was Margaret Mead, the anthropologist, who had seen the collapse of primitive Pacific cultures when they came into contact with advanced Western cultures. She felt contact with advanced ETIs would do the same to humanity.

I don't believe Brookings is right--I think we would handle ETI contact fine--but I strongly suspect the government continues to follow those recommendations. Which explains the Army's behavior at Roswell and the possible doctoring of NASA photos.

Remember, too, the face isn't the only feature of interest; it is part of a cluster of regular structures in the Cydonia region, and NASA made a deliberate choice to focus only on the face and not even photograph the other Cydonia features on its so-called "Global Surveyor" mission. Very odd. [See http://www.enterprisemission.com/jplimaging.html) ]

Like you, Vagabond, I don't believe a civilization ever arose on Mars. I would see the Cydonia structures (if they are structures) more likely as evidence of an outpost of a old visiting culture, not evidence of an indigenous Martian civilization.

Here's Hoagland's own explanation of the photographic anomalies: http://www.enterprisemission.com/shrunk.html)

And here are enhanced and comparison images: http://www.enterprisemission.com/shrunk.html[/URL]) http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/features.jpg) http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/faces13.jpg) http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/facecomp.jpg) http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/morncomp.jpg) http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/cydonia1tp_bot_med.gif)

--wiz




[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited February 15, 2000).]

wizzywig,


Why would NASA engage in a coverup?


My thought is that they haven't. My reasoning is that if they were willing to go out on a limb and claim that they had evidence of life on Mars based off of the controversial tests results on their Martian meteorite, then I'd likewise suspect that they'd be willing to confirm the presence of intelligently built structures on Mars as well.

Why didn't they use a better camera angle or resolution? You're asking the wrong person. We weren't in the control room at the time, but speculation could be that the spacecraft was not in an optimum orbital position to take as perfect a picture of that exact location as the Viking spacecraft. Who knows? You'll have to ask them.

As to government coverups (not NASA), I suspect there could be something there. Especially the Roswell case. Too many witnesses, and too many fishy stories coming from the government seems to indicate that they are not being forthcoming, for whatever reason.

Regarding ET life having an adverse impact on Terran civlizations, I agree that this is a distinct possibility. Turn the table and look at it from this angle:

Humans have dominated every life form they have encounterd because they arrogantly believe that they are superior and have a God-given right to be masters of the universe. I likewise believe if Terrans were to encounter less-advanced intelligent life, that our contact with these beings would be disastrous for them. Finally, who's to say a more advanced intelligent life form couldn't have our same shortcomings and see us as we see cattle, lesser creatures to be exploited as they see fit?

Having said all that, I'd love for aliens to make contact with us, IF they had benevolent, non-hostile intentions.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

We are all but actors, and the world is our stage...

Of course one should realize that if for example these "alien conquistidors" were intent on conquering us, our knowing about it, really wouldn't help.

I would think NASA (with constant cuts in budget, etc) would grasp onto ANY reason to get themselves more funding (especially public enthusiasm from alien reports, rumors). So I think they would be the last person to lie in favor of their not being alien civilizations when there actually were.

As far as the government, well considering all the stuff they HAVE lied about in the past (especially during the cold war years) there's no telling what they MIGHT be lying about now, but that's more of a pessimist attitude (unfortunately based on historical fact..). Are we any better now then we were 50 years ago? I often wonder.

Of course we could attempt to resist the alien invaders, but I fear it would end up the same as the Native American resistance to the European conquest.

Superior technology (especially militarily), and ambition would eventually lead to our defeat and colonization/subordination/assimiliation (or even anhiliation).

Conspiracy theorists (and X-files fans) would probably then insist that certain world leaders are simply making back alley "deals" with the alien invaders to "lessen their impact" but we're still in for trouble in the long run. Tie this into the coming New World Order, and you have a great alarmist report about the future. I tend to view this suspiciously, but then again, it might be true.. you never know (Kurgan is gunned down by assassins, and his death is covered up, authorities deny his existence). ; )

Kurgan

Regarding contact with other civlizations, I think Carl Sagan said it best. To paraphrase, he said that if conflict ever arose between two space-faring civlizations, it is unlikely that anything resembling Star Wars would result. Rather, one civlization would most likely be far more advanced than the other, and any war would be a short-lived, lopsided afair.

This I tend to agree with. It is far more likley that intelligent life exists in the universe, than the likelihood that two technologically equivalent space-faring civlizations should meet up resulting a prolonged conflict. That seems highly improbable to me. Not imposible as eventually it would probably happen, but very unlikely; definitely the exception rather than the rule.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

We are all but actors, and the world is our stage...

I've checked at two different Barnes & Nobles in cities about 300 miles apart, trying to find a copy of RARE EARTH, which was supposed to be released this month. Well, this month is just about gone, and neither store had a copy--but they offered to order it for me. (Hey, I have a computer and I know how to type in Amazon.com--I can order it myself, thanks!)

Has anyone seen the book?

--wiz

I watched a show on the Learning Channel and took a good look at the Drake equation. It seems like a fairly good guide to the existence of life. I don't understand how it has ever been used to support life however. The evidence from Rare Earth effectively limits the equation to zero. Without RE I don't know where they got their numbers, but they are so high I'd really like to know. One of the factors is utterly unknowable at this time, and maybe for all time (that of how long an intelligent culture will last).

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

I just ordered RARE EARTH from Amazon.com--they're offering it (finally) for 30 percent off the list price (B&N won't stock it, but they'll order it for you at full $27.50 retail--TBNT).

I'm sure the book addresses the Drake Equations and fine-tunes the numbers considerably, based on latest cosmological research. After I read it, I'll let you know.

The Rare Earth argument has clear anthropic and God implications. I will be interested to see if the authors make those connections or not.

--wiz

I think I will go to Amazon then. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif) Although living in Canada has me wary of ordering things off the internet (it gets expensive).

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

Whoa, been a while.

I got RARE EARTH (thanks, Conor, for bringing the book to my attention), and it is EXCELLENT. It is a very sober and careful analysis, and begins with a very thorough explanation of the evolution of the solar system and earth, the origin and evolution of life, and so forth. It deals extensively and intelligently with the Drake equation. Interestingly, given that it counters so much of Carl Sagan's worldview with regard to ET life, it is dedicated to Sagan's memory.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK. It's pricey, but worth it. It will give you an excellent education in the latest thinking about how the solar system and the earth were formed, and how life came to evolve upon the earth.

I'm only 80 or so pages into it, but it is absorbing reading.

--wiz

I still plan on getting it. Eventually. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif)

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

One thing I was discussing with a friend of mine, was the whole "possible government cover-up thing."

I'm not a big conspiracy theory buff, but I admit, yes, it's possible there might be some vast conspiracy to hide UFO/alien info, for some reason we don't know yet (consult your X-Files/sci fi buff for possible plot scenarios).

The thing is, those government officials get our tax money, and they get our votes. They want to be popular to stay in office, and continue to get funds from rich groups (which they ultimately are more concerned with appeasing than Joe and Jane Blow at home).

The thing is, if they go along with the idea that aliens aren't real (of course they aren't real, no self-respecting person would believe there are little green men out there in tin-foil saucers than they would there's old green women flying on brooms or big scaly dragons in England!) then if they ever find out they ARE real, they'll probably have to lie or cover it up, for fear of looking stupid because they were wrong, or appear not to be in control (losing support, votes, and money). If they go along with the idea that they are real, they have no way to conveniently dismiss witnesses of spy probes and stuff like that (during the cold war, they could just call people who saw the Stealth bomber "wacko UFO watchers" or something). It kind of backfires because then people suspect the government of covering up alien life. I think though, that movies like the X-Files help the government more than they hurt it, because they say to us "it's just a movie" and the government can say "look you were just watching that MOVIE, that's not how it really is." And it also fires public imagination, so that they can justify space programs, etc.

Still, for those who want to believe in alien life (especially close to home) and I think there would be more of those sort of folks on a STAR WARS message board, I think NASA and the government would want to give you EVERY POSSIBLE INDICATION that there was alien life, to keep your hopes up. Why? So you'd encourage them to keep looking (support NASA). Why is this important? Then the government can justify spending tons of money on it, and stay in power, plus you get the whole "secret budget" thing. They can spend a ton of money, and we can "assume" that they are using it for some secret purpose, to save us from the ETI's. Or something like that.

Personally, I believe alien life exists somewhere in the universe, in addition to earth. The question is, are they really visiting us. Are the "UFO's" people claim to be seeing really visitors from outer space?

Then the question is, are they really trying to do something "regarding us" and is the government involved?

It's a stretch, but I think alot of speculation, alot of Cold War policy, and general (earned) mistrust of our authority figures leads to UFO paranoia, and it's not hard to see that now. Plus when you get all the New Age type of stuff going on.. people rejecting belief in traditional Monotheistic religion in favor of emphasis on Angelology, Crystalology, ESP, occult, tarot cards, etc. (no offense to you people, you're just practicing your religion). I just think those kinds of belief systems tend to be more attracted to the idea of alien life visiting us (and of course the Sci Fi fans love it too).

Let's just hope a big war doesn't break out with China and Taiwan. That might mean the end of civilization...

Kurgan

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited March 23, 2000).]

Don't forget India and Pakistan. Now that they're both openly nuclear, their aggresive flirtations now take on a whole new level of significance.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

China is a rabid dog, and it may be too powerful to be put down. I wouldn't be surprised if China made a power play very soon. It would take the Bomb to stop them.

I am just glad India and Pakistan don't have missiles that can reach very far beyond themselves. If they ever do get long-range weapons America is going to have to get off their ass and do something about it.

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

Well, I don't think that India and Pakistan have any beef with the USA as things are currently. The worry is that the military leaders in Pakistan will lose control to the hardline fundamental muslims, who also happen to harbor a strong dislike for the USA. I needn't detail all the negative possibilities that would open up as I'm sure you're imagination is vivid enough.



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Perhaps it is time to bring back the Assasination game...

It is hard to fight a war against a few men.

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

I am actually curious what anyone else thinks of that topic.

There is a very real threat from organized people who simply could not be countered except by using their own methods against them.

Yet...playing that card is almost impossible to condone. Is it right to kill someone before they can launch an attack (weaponry, terrorism, biological agents) against you?

I think the decision will come soon.

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

I think China worries me alot more than India or Pakistan. Sure those two countries have nukes, but China is more openly hostile towards us, and they have a larger military.

But yeah, being the world's policeman is an impossible task, and we've got at least as many enemies as friends (if we have any friends, that is). "We" of course being the US of A.

I don't think those kind of "tactics" are exceptable morally. But then again, neither is war, or any military intervention that results in loss of life (you can't have a war without civilian casulaties and some attrocities).

If we ever had a so-called "just war" (not these bogus "humanitarian peace actions" which are just power-plays most of the time fought for economic reasons), then I would be behind it, although I'd rather things be solved peacefully than with bloodshed.

And don't get too caught up in all the "fundamenalist muslim" propaganda. Sure mags like Newsweek will tell you that Osmar bin "boogeyman" Ladin and all his "secret army" are going to kill all of us infidels while we sleep in our beds, but I think it isn't a religious thing. We've got enemies from all races, colors, creeds, and geographic locations. We might happen to be enemies with some muslim countries (probably because of our propping up of Israel), but there's no hard and fast rule. We have Islamic allies too.

Kurgan

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited March 23, 2000).]

Conor--

I read this comment of yours:


Perhaps it is time to bring back the Assasination game...
Is it right to kill someone before they can launch an attack (weaponry, terrorism, biological agents) against you?
I think the decision will come soon.


And then I read your sig--

"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi


Am I the only one who detects the slightest little disconnect there? http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

(I'm not disagreeing with you, btw--just grinning wryly at the juxtaposition of these sentiments. Somehow it's hard for me to picture St. Francis calling for a war of assassins...)

--wiz

I thought of that when I posted, and wondered if anyone would respond.

I thought it was interesting how, ethically, the use of assasination could never really be defended, yet I don't know what we are going to do against terrorists except fight them at thier own game.

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi